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Gozak83 が 2時間前 投稿
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[–]MelissaJuice 58ポイント59ポイント60ポイント 1時間前 (65子コメント)
The "girls aren't good at games" stereotype is so fucking stupid. It's already on its way out, but, wow, is it childish.
I have a friend who ocasioanlly says it. He said it, actually, when we were playing Hearthstone and randomly queued against Hafu (female steamer). We lost. Badly.
[–]Axehurdle 16ポイント17ポイント18ポイント 1時間前 (64子コメント)
Ugh, my girlfriend is always saying things like this.
I'll be watching Morgan or something and she'll just look over my shoulder and say "she's a girl? Wow, she must be bad." and I'm like wtf?
[–]MelissaJuice 9ポイント10ポイント11ポイント 1時間前 (63子コメント)
Bizarre.
I actually started to question my friend about it. As in, "What's your proof? Do you think women evolved to lack those skills or something?" That kind of thing. But he's my best bud, so I ended up letting that one go.
The answer is likely that many girls didn't grow up (like many dudes I know) playing video games nonstop. It makes sense that they wouldn't have developed the skills like we did. But assuming that they did grow up doing that, women are easily as capable as men.
[–]tola8 -22ポイント-21ポイント-20ポイント 1時間前 (62子コメント)
Women did evolve to like strategy and competition less than men tho? I am a woman who likes strategy a lot, but I accept that I'm not in the majority.
[–]Zedkan 21ポイント22ポイント23ポイント 1時間前 (18子コメント)
Just because you're in the minority doesn't mean its an evolutionary trait. I can't find anything supporting disliking strategy as an evolutionary trait.
[+]tola8 スコアが基準値未満のコメント-16ポイント-15ポイント-14ポイント 1時間前 (17子コメント)
Well it's quite simple. Women were gatherers, men were hunters. Strategy is not a trait essential to gathering food, but other things were, while in hunting strategy is very important. This should be simple logic.
[–]UncleMeat 22ポイント23ポイント24ポイント 1時間前 (5子コメント)
Actually the best available evidence doesn't support a sharp distinction between gender roles as hunters or gatherers in pre-agriculture humanity. You are performing the worst kind of evopsych.
[–]tola8 -4ポイント-3ポイント-2ポイント 1時間前 (4子コメント)
I have not seen a single bit of evidence to disprove the hunter-gatherer theory, can you link me one?
[–]Axehurdle 7ポイント8ポイント9ポイント 55分前 (3子コメント)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_division_of_labour
http://www.paleoanthro.org/static/journal/content/PA20080091.pdf
https://www.theguardian.com/science/2015/may/14/early-men-women-equal-scientists
[+]tola8 スコアが基準値未満のコメント-8ポイント-7ポイント-6ポイント 48分前 (2子コメント)
So two sources that are untrustworthy. Wikipedia doesn't need any explanation and The Guardian is media with a leftist bias. The paleoanthro society isn't completely untrustworthy, but it does again have a political bias towards the left and the article is very unsubstantiative and makes the claim that the reasons why we interpret past evidence the way we do is because of past sexism, which is because more sexism in the past and only encourages the system to be questioned without offering any concrete evidence.
[–]MelissaJuice 12ポイント13ポイント14ポイント 1時間前 (8子コメント)
"Simple logic" isn't how scientific evidence works. Many, many things in science seem logical, but absolutely aren't. That's why evidence is so crucial.
[+]tola8 スコアが基準値未満のコメント-9ポイント-8ポイント-7ポイント 1時間前 (7子コメント)
Sure, but evolutionary science can be mostly deducted by using simple logic and applying it to the proven systems we have. Almost all parts of animal behavior can be traced back to some advantage in survival.
[–]MelissaJuice 12ポイント13ポイント14ポイント 1時間前 (3子コメント)
Sure. And this has to do with video games....how?
You're making pretty enormous assumption there, and one that doesn't seem obvious or intuitive.
You can say something it "It may be that..." but to make an actual claim about women and video games, you're going to need actual evidence.
[–]tola8 -4ポイント-3ポイント-2ポイント 1時間前 (2子コメント)
You cannot make a half assed claim and expect people to engage or start a discussion. To grow myself and others as people I have to talk and discuss. I have linked multiple studies that prove that multiple elements that allow one to play magic well are more present in men than they are in women.
[–]AwkwardTurtle 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 20分前 (2子コメント)
evolutionary science can be mostly deducted by using simple logic
No, it really can't. This is why 95% of evo psych is complete bullshit. There's no actual evidence, people just thought about things and decided they made sense.
[–]tola8 -1ポイント0ポイント1ポイント 14分前 (1子コメント)
That applies to literally every field of science, most of physics isn't based on actual evidence.
[–]fjdkslan 6ポイント7ポイント8ポイント 1時間前 (1子コメント)
I don't think it's nearly that simple personally. Having a mind to solve problems is an evolutionary advantage in way more ways than one. Plus, the strategy our early ancestors used in hunting wasn't exactly on par with strategy in a card game, tabletop game or video game. Really their only strategy was to keep running until the other animal tired out.
But even more than that, just based on Occam's razor, it makes a whole lot more sense to me personally that this perception of women being bad at games/strategy comes from cultural influences than biological ones. In modern society, men are far more frequently pushed to play games, solve puzzles, and excel in STEM fields than women, and it's easy to see how that would have a factor on one's ability to problem solve in a game like Magic.
[–]tola8 -3ポイント-2ポイント-1ポイント 1時間前 (0子コメント)
Yes, but the way women and men used their brains was different. Men needed to efficiently track and kill prey, women had to not poison everyone with some inedible plants. This is why men have a better spatial visualization ability for example. (One source for you: http://scottbarrykaufman.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/Kaufman-2007.pdf)
[–]MelissaJuice 4ポイント5ポイント6ポイント 1時間前 (18子コメント)
Proof? Evidence? I'd like to read up on that. That sounds like shaky science to me.
[–]tola8 -2ポイント-1ポイント0ポイント 1時間前 (17子コメント)
http://www.pitt.edu/~vester/ar2011.pdf
[–]Axehurdle 7ポイント8ポイント9ポイント 1時間前 (16子コメント)
Where does this mention the effect being biological?
[–]tola8 -2ポイント-1ポイント0ポイント 58分前 (15子コメント)
Right in the title of the study. Sex differences. That means biological.
[–]Axehurdle 5ポイント6ポイント7ポイント 51分前 (14子コメント)
No it doesn't.
I don't see where this specifies that they even think that the differences are caused by biology, let alone have evidence for it.
This just says the difference exists. Which I agree with.
[–]lnrael 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 26分前 (1子コメント)
The paper is excellent, though it doesn't support tola8's conclusion. Section 5.2. summarizes nicely.
The biology and psychology literature suggest that competitiveness results both from nurture and nature (see Niederle & Vesterlund 2007 for a discussion) Economic research to date is consistent with nature, nurture, and the interaction between the two influencing an individual’s attitude toward competition. Although it is unclear, and likely to remain unclear, how much of this drive to compete can be attributed to nurture, there appears to be room for manipulating the preferences for competitions. Indeed, gender stereotypes held in a society have been shown to affect the performance of females on a stereotypical-male task such as math (Niederle & Vesterlund 2010, Pope & Sydnor 2010). If stereotypes can be changed, then it may be possible to encourage more women to compete on stereotypical-male tasks.
The biology and psychology literature suggest that competitiveness results both from nurture and nature (see Niederle & Vesterlund 2007 for a discussion)
Economic research to date is consistent with nature, nurture, and the interaction between the two influencing an individual’s attitude toward competition. Although it is unclear, and likely to remain unclear, how much of this drive to compete can be attributed to nurture, there appears to be room for manipulating the preferences for competitions. Indeed, gender stereotypes held in a society have been shown to affect the performance of females on a stereotypical-male task such as math (Niederle & Vesterlund 2010, Pope & Sydnor 2010). If stereotypes can be changed, then it may be possible to encourage more women to compete on stereotypical-male tasks.
[–]tola8 -1ポイント0ポイント1ポイント 45分前 (11子コメント)
''Sex refers to the biological and physiological characteristics that define men and women. Gender refers to the socially constructed roles, behaviours, activities, and attributes that a given society considers appropriate for men and women.'' from the WHO. Sex difference means that the differences are caused by biology.
[–]Axehurdle 6ポイント7ポイント8ポイント 1時間前 (23子コメント)
I don't think there's any actual evidence to support that though.
Maybe if you were talking about sexuality there would be some argument but as far as games, puzzles, strategy, nope. There's just no evidence at all to suggest men are more predisposed to it than women.
There's lots of anecdotal evidence and there's evidence that societies discourage girls from pursuing these things. But no evidence that, all things equal, they're less likely to enjoy them or be good at them.
[+]tola8 スコアが基準値未満のコメント-11ポイント-10ポイント-9ポイント 1時間前 (22子コメント)
I have never been presented with any evidence that western societies discourage girls from playing games.
[–]Axehurdle 12ポイント13ポイント14ポイント 1時間前 (6子コメント)
They have.
The stereotype of the male nerd gamer is a thing, and when that left there was the idea of "fake geek girls" because morons literally couldn't believe that a girl would play a game.
[–]MelissaJuice 6ポイント7ポイント8ポイント 1時間前 (0子コメント)
Preach.
[+]tola8 スコアが基準値未満のコメント-9ポイント-8ポイント-7ポイント 1時間前 (4子コメント)
So women are so weak in your opinion that they cannot get over a stereotype?
[–]Axehurdle 5ポイント6ポイント7ポイント 1時間前 (3子コメント)
No, they can. They have, we see girls are playing games. 50% of people playing video games are girls.
But people won't believe that statistic because the stereotype is so strong.
[–]JonnotheMackem 6ポイント7ポイント8ポイント 1時間前 (1子コメント)
But people won't believe that statistic...
Or they will and say "Oh they just play games like Candy Crush, that's not real gaming...
[–]tola8 -4ポイント-3ポイント-2ポイント 1時間前 (0子コメント)
Most girls playing video games play noncompetitive games that do not require long term strategy, this falls in line with what I am saying.
[–]Tristantene 5ポイント6ポイント7ポイント 1時間前 (14子コメント)
I don't think I've ever met a female MTG player who HASN'T had to deal with a gigantic pile of shit every time they go to an event. Just because you don't see it, it doesn't mean it's not there.
[+]tola8 スコアが基準値未満のコメント-9ポイント-8ポイント-7ポイント 1時間前 (13子コメント)
I have dealt with it, I'm just strong enough to not care, you know like most people with developed brains are.
[–]TheRabbler 7ポイント8ポイント9ポイント 59分前 (10子コメント)
So women who won't tolerate constant abuse have underdeveloped brains and/or just aren't strong enough to ignore it?
[–]tola8 -5ポイント-4ポイント-3ポイント 56分前 (9子コメント)
If the best solution they come up with is to bitch about it on the internet or quit playing magic then yes, those kinds of women are not mature and/or strong.
[–]facewhatface 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 26分前 (1子コメント)
/r/iamverysmart
[–]tola8 -1ポイント0ポイント1ポイント 23分前 (0子コメント)
I'm not that bad...
π Rendered by PID 21368 on app-27 at 2016-06-08 16:03:14.935463+00:00 running 1f5568e country code: JP.
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