467
468

If I had... (imgur.com)

joebags15 が 投稿

並べ替え:
ベスト
トップ新着論争中古い順Q&A
あなたは単独のコメントのスレッドを見ています。

残りのコメントをみる →

[–]lnstantKarma -44ポイント-43ポイント  (116子コメント)

You're an ignorant bigotted asshole if you think "There are only two genders and they are sharply defined! It's science!"

You're ignorant of a number of well-characterized and fairly common conditions discovered by science that cause ambiguity in sexual characteristics.

I can name seven and I'm sure there are many more:

  • Turner's
  • Klinefelter's
  • Congenital Adrenal Hyperplasia
  • Ovotesticular Disorder of Sexual Development
  • 5-Alpha Reductase Deficiency
  • Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome
  • Aromatase Deficiency

Not only are you hacks bigoted, but you are lazy too.

[–]joebags15[S] 25ポイント26ポイント  (35子コメント)

I know this is a joke (hope) but to put this to bed. sex is a result of physical characteristics, so the above are describing deviations in the normal physical traits (one's sex.)

Gender is the construct by which you define yourself as a member of a sex - Which would mean that identifying as a gender that does not correspond with your sex is a psychological rather than physical abnormality.

[–]Zeppelanoid 7ポイント8ポイント  (1子コメント)

Is this copy pasta? Can it be?

[–]lnstantKarma -2ポイント-1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Please copy and paste this wherever you like. It will help educate people that intersex people actually exist and you can't define gender exclusively by genitals.

[–]TotesMessenger 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'm a bot, bleep, bloop. Someone has linked to this thread from another place on reddit:

If you follow any of the above links, please respect the rules of reddit and don't vote in the other threads. (Info / Contact)

[–]mister_ghost 1ポイント2ポイント  (3子コメント)

discovered by science

Science is not a smart person who tells you things.

All kidding aside, our concept of gender is certainly socially constructed, and in different contexts different constructs are useful.

In a (non-psychological) medical context, it probably makes sense to just have two genders, and have gender be the same as sex. In a neurological context, you'd probably want to separate gender and sex.

When it comes to sexuality,it seems like the best thing to do is ditch the concept of genders-as-groups entirely and allow people to come to their own identities.

What I will say is this: if there is a discrete number of genders, it's probably two. If you were looking for a definition of gender where you could have some number of boxes on a page, hand someone the page, and they check off one box to indicate their gender, male/female is the best you're going to do. Maybe male/female/other, but I don't think anyone wants that.

It's also true that the man/woman distinction is imprecise: you've listed some conditions which modify physical sex's presentation. But the distinction's not going anywhere. It seems pretty much built in to humans. As far as anyone I can tell, we're born with an intuitive ability to say "That's a man, that's a woman", and whether we admit it or not, binary gender plays a huge role in all of our lives. It would be silly to outright refuse to refer to it in contexts where it makes sense.

"How many genders are there?"Is a fucking dumb question. A better question is "what is the most useful definition of gender for what I am trying to accomplish"?

[–]lnstantKarma 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

Maybe male/female/other, but I don't think anyone wants that.

There are people who want that. 1 in 2000 people are intersex. If you do the math, you realize that there are more intersexed people in the world than there are Jewish people!

On a census form it wouldn't hurt to have an other box. It WOULD hurt to tell these people that they don't exist at all. It's hate speech to tell gay people they don't exist and it's the same for other groups of people.

[–]mister_ghost 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

Do intersex people want to be referred to as 'other', though? Genuinely asking, I'd assumed not.

Also, that comparison seems a little misleading. 1 in 2000 births are difficult to classify, but I suspect that most of these people end up comfortable with either a male or female identity. In addition, Jewish people have a shared culture and history to a much greater degree than intersex people do.

My go-to example might be heterochromia - having different coloured eyes. That's more common than being intersex, but it doesn't stop us from talking about eye colour. And if I asked you "what colour are your eyes? Please select one of the following...", I wouldn't be "telling people they don't exist".

[–]lnstantKarma 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Do intersex people want to be referred to as 'other'

I agree. I meant to say that there should be an option for people who don't fit in the boxes of male and female.

but I suspect that most of these people end up comfortable with either a male or female identity

You're just speculating. There are a lot of intersex people who don't want to deny an entire side of themselves and forced into a box.

My go-to example might be heterochromia

Yea and you don't go around telling people there are only 2 eye colors. Why do the same with gender?

[–]nmotsch789 4ポイント5ポイント  (51子コメント)

Defects and disorders are not genders. If you have a Y chromosome, you are biologically male. If you don't, you're biologically female.

[–]lnstantKarma 3ポイント4ポイント  (40子コメント)

What if you're intersex and you have both male and female genitalia? How do you define your gender?

[–]nmotsch789 3ポイント4ポイント  (13子コメント)

I literally just said that it depends on whether they have a Y chromosome. Birth defects are not genders.

[–]lnstantKarma -2ポイント-1ポイント  (12子コメント)

So you want to force people to identify a certain way. What if you have both male and female genitals and you don't want to be defined as ONLY male or ONLY female?

[–]nmotsch789 6ポイント7ポイント  (11子コメント)

Why does it matter how you feel like defining yourself as? Why does everything have to have a label on it? One man might be more effeminate than another, why do they need a special label for that? They're both men. One person may have a birth defect. Why do they need a special label for that beyond the name of the defect? And why does the label have to count as a "gender"? And why should we have to redefine our language to accommodate the miniscule amount of people with abnormal bodies?

[–]lnstantKarma 0ポイント1ポイント  (8子コメント)

Why does everything have to have a label on it?

Just because someone is a minority doesn't mean they don't get a label. Gay people are a minority but they get a label.

Don't you see how it's hate speech to say someone doesn't exist? You wouldn't go to a gay pride parade and say that gay people don't get a label.

[–]nmotsch789 1ポイント2ポイント  (7子コメント)

You ignored my point. Why do they need a label beyond a descriptor? If every single person has their own unique label, then it defeats the point of labels. And when did I ever say that they didn't exist? I specifically acknowledged that they exist. But you can't ignore the fact that they're in the extreme minority of people.

[–]lnstantKarma -1ポイント0ポイント  (6子コメント)

You admit though that people don't fit into two sharply-defined boxes. Saying there are only two boxes is denying that an entire group of people doesn't exist. Gay people are a minority and saying they don't exist is hate speech.

Imagine you are an intersex person with both male and female genitalia. It looks like you are both male and female and you aren't sure what you should describe yourself as. What should you do? How would you feel if someone told you that you don't get your own identity?

[–]nmotsch789 1ポイント2ポイント  (5子コメント)

You would describe yourself as biologically intersex, and your biological sex would depend on whether you have a Y chromosome. As for what gender you identify as, it really doesn't matter too much. Just do whatever you're more comfortable doing, and identify as whatever gender you are closer to.

Also, I specifically said that these conditions exist, but that they aren't their own genders. That's not the same as saying these people don't exist, and that's kind of a bizarre strawman for you to keep going back to.

[–]holomanga -1ポイント0ポイント  (1子コメント)

Exactly, why do there need to be labels? There's only one gender, the human gender.

[–]nmotsch789 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Let's take this to the other extreme-does every single possible difference in genitals, secondary sex characteristics, and/or personality constitute a different gender? Is a man with a micropenis a different gender than a man with a normal penis? Is a woman with painfully large boobs a different gender than a woman with normal boobs?

If you give a label to every possible difference, then there's no point to the label anymore, because you would literally have to extend this to include thousands of "genders".

[–]ulpisen 1ポイント2ポイント  (25子コメント)

/u/nmotsch789 didn't mention genetalia, they mentioned chromosomes I guess if some parts of you have Y chromosomes and some parts of you have XX, then your sex would be a bit male and a bit female, still wouldn't cause the existance of a third sex

[–]lnstantKarma 0ポイント1ポイント  (24子コメント)

You admit there are people who don't fit into one of your two sharply-defined boxes. Would that mean there is perhaps a THIRD box?

[–]ulpisen 4ポイント5ポイント  (23子コメント)

sure, I'm not dismissing that possibility, but I don't think that the fact that a very small amount of people seem to belong partially to both groups is enough to justify a third group

[–]lnstantKarma -1ポイント0ポイント  (22子コメント)

Disregarding gender, gay people are a minority. Does that mean it isn't justified for them to have their own group and call themselves gay? Can't you see how not allowing people their own category is denying their existence?

[–]ulpisen 1ポイント2ポイント  (21子コメント)

Gay people are a minority. Does that mean it isn't justified for them to have their own group?

no, it's justified, but they are extremely distinct in their sexuality from straight people, but perhaps a better comparison would be some other sexual attraction that is less common and more compatible with other sexualities would be for example people who have a sexual attraction to feet, if people started saying that there are straight people, gay people, bi people and people who get off to feet, people would say that the last group doesn't really belong on that list.

Can't you see how not allowing people their own category is denying their existence?

firstly, that's a very dramatic way of puting it, I'm not "not allowing" them their own category, they can categorize themselves as whatever they want and if I think they are not accurately describing reality I might comment on it, I'm not opressing anyone.

secondly, if anything I'm saying that they are not sufficiently different from other people to warrent their own category, that's pretty inclusive, the opposite of discriminating against them

[–]lnstantKarma -2ポイント-1ポイント  (20子コメント)

no, it's justified, but they are extremely distinct in their sexuality from straight people,

What about bisexual people then? Do they not get a category?

I'm not "not allowing" them their own category, they can categorize themselves as whatever they want

Then why say there are only two genders? That's not being inclusive.

[–]ulpisen 4ポイント5ポイント  (19子コメント)

What about bisexual people then? Do they not get a category?

sure, I think if bisexuality wasn't already a commonly used term it'd be fine to say "I'm both"

Then why say there are only two genders? That's not being inclusive.

it is inclusive if you define everyone to fall under those two genders, it'd also be inclusive to say that there's only one gender, and everyone is that one gender. the actual problem is whether or not that accurately describes reality

[–]JacobKebm -1ポイント0ポイント  (9子コメント)

Sex and gender are not the same

[–]nmotsch789 2ポイント3ポイント  (8子コメント)

One heavily affects the other. Gender is not solely a social construct, and social constructs can be based on biology.

[–]JacobKebm -2ポイント-1ポイント  (7子コメント)

It's true that gender and sex heavily correlate, but it's not that way for everybody.

[–]nmotsch789 4ポイント5ポイント  (6子コメント)

If you're talking about transgender people, I totally understand that they are the exception. However, even for them, there are still only two genders and two sexes. No surgery in the world can change your biological sex, and transgender people should aim to transition from one gender to the other, not to be some special in-between seperate gender.

[–]lnstantKarma 0ポイント1ポイント  (3子コメント)

transgender people should aim to transition from one gender to the other, not to be some special in-between seperate gender.

Why do you get to tell people what they can or cannot do? If someone wants to be androgynous why shouldn't a person be allowed to be androgynous?

[–]nmotsch789 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

Being androgynous is fine. But it's a descriptor, an adjective, not a gender. You can be a gender without conforming to all of its roles. People are more than their sex or their gender.

[–]lnstantKarma 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

There are people who don't fit into the two sharply-defined boxes for example intersex people. Then how do those people identify themselves?

[–]nmotsch789 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

We somehow ended up having different conversations in different threads. But in the other thread we were talking in, I think I already answered something similar.

[–]Nixdaboss 1ポイント2ポイント  (19子コメント)

You either have a penis or a vagina, sorry buddy

[–]lnstantKarma 1ポイント2ポイント  (18子コメント)

What about intersex people who have both male and female genitalia?

[–]Nixdaboss 2ポイント3ポイント  (17子コメント)

Well, I would imagine they would be considered either one sex or the other legally. Scientifically, that's an anomaly

[–]lnstantKarma -2ポイント-1ポイント  (16子コメント)

Scientifically, that's an anomaly

http://www.isna.org/faq/ten_myths/rare

But wait, you say, 1 in 2,000 sounds rare! Well, if only 1 in 2,000 persons is intersexed, then intersex is more common than cystic fibrosis, a condition most people have heard of. In fact, as Sherri Groveman pointed out in her article in Intersex in the Age of Ethics, if you do the math, you realize that there are more intersexed people in the world than there are Jewish people!

[–]Nixdaboss 4ポイント5ポイント  (15子コメント)

Yes but most of those people identify as one sex. They don't just stay in between.

[–]lnstantKarma 0ポイント1ポイント  (14子コメント)

Yes but most of those people identify as one sex. They don't just stay in between.

This is extremely ignorant. There are a lot of intersex people who don't want to be forced to fit into one box or the other. They have both characteristics and they don't want to deny an entire side of their sex.

[–]Nixdaboss 5ポイント6ポイント  (13子コメント)

Okay, its still abnormal though.

The definition of normal:

conforming to a standard; usual, typical, or expected

So by definition, if you have both a penis and vagina you're abnormal. I'm not sure why this is so hard. I agree that people should choose to be whoever they want based on how they feel, but scientifically they have to be a man or a woman. If you can find a source of someone who can both impregnate a woman, as well as bear a child, I'll admit you're right

[–]lnstantKarma 0ポイント1ポイント  (11子コメント)

but scientifically they have to be a man or a woman.

Link me the research paper denying that intersex people exist. There are a lot of intersex people who shouldn't be forced to fit into one box or the other. They have both male and female characteristics and they shouldn't be forced to deny an entire side of their sex.

[–]Nixdaboss 5ポイント6ポイント  (10子コメント)

I'll say again, show me someone who can give birth as well as impregnate or you're just incorrect. We aren't on the same page here obviously.

[–]mruwlek -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

The definition of normal:

conforming to a standard; usual, typical, or expected

Those are two different definitions. The first one implies some kind of value judgement, the second one is just about how common something is. When you describe something as "abnormal", you usually mean to imply that there is something wrong with it, not just that it has features that aren't very common. If I have an "abnormal growth" on my body, it sounds a bit more sinister than an "unusual growth", for example.

scientifically they have to be a man or a woman

Why? It's pretty clear that there isn't a simple dichotomy between male and female, regardless of whether you are talking about sex, gender, or both.

If you can find a source of someone who can both impregnate a woman, as well as bear a child, I'll admit you're right

There are lots of people who can't do either - are they neither male nor female?

[–]nospr2 -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

Turner's

Female

Klinefelter's

Male

Congenital Adrenal Hyperplasia

Disorder that effect males and females

Ovotesticular Disorder of Sexual Development

Disorder that effect males and females

5-Alpha Reductase Deficiency

Male

Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome

Male

Aromatase Deficiency

Female

I'm sure there are many more:

What else are there?