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Why Men Don't Teach Elementary School (abcnews.go.com)

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[–]anillop 70ポイント71ポイント  (11子コメント)

I had a friend that was an elementary school teacher for a while. He loved teaching 2nd grade but after a while it started to get to him how suspicious people viewed him. He said it was not uncommon for parents to try and have their children moved to other classes because they didn't like the idea of their precious daughters being taught by a man. "I mean what kind of a man wants to teach children, that just seems a little suspicious."

Between parents requesting to move kids out and the numerous precautions he had to take like never being alone with students, always having a administrator or female teacher near by, etc. It just got to him after a while and he stopped teaching. He said most parents were fine but "the Nancy Grace set" of parents just ruined it for him. Between that and the fact that the women he worked with though he has their personal physical laborer (and that he had to drop with he was doing when ever they needed something moved) pushed him away from the job eventually.

[–]SrslyNotAnAltGuys 21ポイント22ポイント  (5子コメント)

Between that and the fact that the women he worked with though he has their personal physical laborer (and that he had to drop with he was doing when ever they needed something moved)

Haha, I can relate. I work for a company in a similarly female-dominated industry, and for awhile I was the only man there among 20 people. Even now, sometimes I'm the only male in the office, and when it's time to move heavy desks or conference tables, or schlep stacks of file boxes, guess who they go to?

The worst part is, they always go for the flattery angle (You look like you've been working out. Sure lucky we have a big strong, strapping man around! ) and I fall for it. Every. Single. Time.

[–]DangerousLoner [スコア非表示]  (4子コメント)

Too funny! I work with mostly women too. We have a guy in our office but he's very petite and no one ever asks him to move stuff. You should feel flattered.

I on the other hand work out, lift, and wear 4 inch heals so I get asked to help with physical stuff since I seem so "strapping". Yeah one time I kicked off my heels to move something and the lady who asked me was shocked I was her same height at 5'3". Then she said well I'm so young. She just turned 40 and I'll be 35 in a couple weeks. Some ladies just underestimate themselves. They could move stuff too!

[–]Finnegan482 [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

Wait, are you a man or a woman? Strapping is an unusual word to use to describe a woman , but I don't think I've ever seen a self-identified man wear 4 inch heels in an office setting.

[–]Observantageous [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

I was on the sales floor at work when a woman asked me (I'm a 4'10" woman) to get someone to grab a box off the top shelf. So I grab a ladder and start climbing up when she says "oh, YOU'RE going to get it??

I'm pretty sure she expected me to go find a "big strapping man" to do it instead. She almost sounded offended. Like she couldn't use the "I'm weak" excuse that she could have used with a guy but instead had to stand there as another woman who is shorter than she is help her with heavy lifting...

[–]therealjohnfreeman 30ポイント31ポイント  (0子コメント)

what kind of a man wants to teach children

In the generation before they were born, most teachers were men.

[–]SchalaZeal01 39ポイント40ポイント  (3子コメント)

Between that and the fact that the women he worked with though he has their personal physical laborer (and that he had to drop with he was doing when ever they needed something moved) pushed him away from the job eventually.

I guess that's the reverse of the medal of having the random female office worker taken as a coffee making machine, regardless of her actual assigned task.

[–]Pariahdog119 22ポイント23ポイント  (1子コメント)

In my industry, making coffee is reserved for the apprentices. "I just graduated college with a degree in CAD/CAM and now I'm a real machinist! Which machines do you want me to run?" There's two: the coffeemaker and the mop.

[–]nrjk 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

I worked in a warehouse (all men) and whoever got there first made coffee. I sometimes wonder what the story was in the office side (more women) of things.

[–]TAKEitTOrCIRCLEJERK[S] 49ポイント50ポイント  (6子コメント)

I've talked often about how we're failing boys in school - from preschool to tertiary school - and about my experiences as a male teacher. This article has a good set of opinions from across the spectrum.

[–]Dewey_Darl 11ポイント12ポイント  (5子コメント)

Could you share some of your experiences as a teacher? I'm always curious to hear personal stories from people who are close to these issues.

[–]TAKEitTOrCIRCLEJERK[S] 53ポイント54ポイント  (4子コメント)

I should say it certainly was not all bad, or even mostly bad. Most of the time I was just a dude doing a job, albeit one of only three dudes in the building - me, the principal, and the janitor.

In terms of how it was different for me as a guy, though?

It was repeatedly overhearing potential parent applicants ask "so, do all the teachers help with toileting?"

It was the consistent and vague-yet-obvious look of slight panic when the parents were introduced to Teacher TITRC.

It was being shuffled off to do the manual labor jobs in the back room when we had applicants visiting the classroom.

It was my coworkers being asked within earshot, "does he know that Susie has a nut allergy?"

In my years and years of preschool duty, this was a 100% mother-based problem. Dads loved me. Their kids fucking adored me, I was basically a living, breathing jungle gym. But if you want to cause a mild heart attack in a mother of a young kid, introduce her to her child's male preschool teacher.

[–]Dewey_Darl 16ポイント17ポイント  (3子コメント)

Sorry to hear that, that must've been incredibly frustrating.

Any insight as to why it was so consistently an issue with mothers and not fathers, besides the obvious explanation that fathers are themselves adult men who spend time with young children?

One thing that sticks out to me is that although all of these stories are almost certainly a result of prejudice, each one taken by itself is semi-plausibly unrelated to your gender.

  • They're just wondering if all the teachers help with toileting, just curios!

  • What look of panic? I'm not panicked.

  • Sorry, that job just needs doing and you're the only one who can do it.

  • We're just wondering if you're aware of her nut allergy! We're looking out for the children here.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I imagine that this brand of discrimination is very, very hard to complain to higher ups about. It's too easy to hand-wave away.

I would also guess that subtle, plausibly deniable discrimination is more common than overt, "shrill mom complaining to the principal about a potential rapist for a teacher" discrimination, and maybe more insidious.

I'm curious about something. Did you ever start to feel a little crazy? I certainly don't mean to imply that you should have at all, but I'm trying to drop myself into your situation, and I think I would start to... I dunno, almost question my own sanity a bit? It's impossible to know, but I feel like if I had a bunch of people subtly discriminating against me in ways that I could never 100% prove were real, I wouldn't be able to help but question if I were seeing things that weren't there. Again, I have no doubt that what you experienced was discrimination. That seems clear from an outside perspective, but I'm wondering how clear it was when you were in the thick of it.

[–]TAKEitTOrCIRCLEJERK[S] 27ポイント28ポイント  (0子コメント)

Any insight as to why it was so consistently an issue with mothers and not fathers, besides the obvious explanation that fathers are themselves adult men who spend time with young children?

If I had to guess, I'd guess that dads are more interested in a young guy like me playing "boy games" with their kids. I was actually talking to my ex-boss last weekend about this - I was the one who played (gentle) tackle football, I was the resident jungle gym, etc. Dad liked seeing little Brayden sweaty and exhausted at the end of the day a little more than mom did.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I imagine that this brand of discrimination is very, very hard to complain to higher ups about. It's too easy to hand-wave away.

Y'know, I was so young that I just swallowed it. I couldn't've complained if I wanted to. Because who wants to think of themselves as a victim? I didn't. I worked as hard as I could and I tried to prove myself to those mothers.

But yes, I felt crazy. I didn't know if it was just me. For all I knew, they did this to everyone. Or maybe my schedule was just different from others'. Maybe they didn't like me personally, and being a dude had nothing to do with it!

I don't want to imply I had a bad time. I didn't. I miss those kids like an old man misses his health. But it was something that stuck with me.

[–]notsocrazy24 20ポイント21ポイント  (1子コメント)

One thing that sticks out to me is that although all of these stories are almost certainly a result of prejudice, each one taken by itself is semi-plausibly unrelated to your gender. * They're just wondering if all the teachers help with toileting, just curios!

  • What look of panic? I'm not panicked.

  • Sorry, that job just needs doing and you're the only one who can do it.

  • We're just wondering if you're aware of her nut allergy! We're looking out for the children here.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I imagine that this brand of discrimination is very, very hard to complain to higher ups about. It's too easy to hand-wave away.

I would also guess that subtle, plausibly deniable discrimination is more common than overt, "shrill mom complaining to the principal about a potential rapist for a teacher" discrimination, and maybe more insidious.

Basically, this also describes why it's harder to be black than white, even if the easily recognizable racism things happen to you, and why it's so damn frustrating; no one really believes that's what's happening.

[–]barakvesh 15ポイント16ポイント  (8子コメント)

I'm a male elementary school teacher. I'm not the only guy in my buildings, but there is a clear disparity in the staff. I don't feel like I get different treatment than my female colleagues; then again I am fairly new to the profession. We'll have to see.

[–]Dewey_Darl 5ポイント6ポイント  (1子コメント)

Out of curiosity have you had parent teacher conferences yet?

[–]barakvesh 10ポイント11ポイント  (0子コメント)

I teach in the US, those tend to happen mid-fall. I am also a music teacher, so many parents consider interaction with me to be optional. I saw less than a half dozen parents at conference time.

[–]ikorolou 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Just spitballing here, but I'd bet the teachers don't really care, maybe you gotta lift a heavy box here and there, but it seems like there's gunna be some of those parents who treat you poorly.

[–]Jozarin [スコア非表示]  (4子コメント)

I'm pretty sure education is one of the few fields where employers are explicitly told not to practice anti-male discrimination. I doubt you would be treated differently by other teachers or by students.

[–]azi-buki-vedi [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

I doubt you would be treated differently by other teachers or by students.

People are told not to discriminate against women all the time, and yet it still happens depressingly often. I agree that /u/barakvesh shouldn't go in expecting to be treated poorly, but neither should he close his eyes to what's happening around him. Considering some of the personal experiences shared in the article and in this thread, it's a bit dismissive to say this shit doesn't happen because (some) schools have anti-discrimination policies in place.

[–]Jozarin [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

I expect the bulk of discrimination comes from parents and administrators caving to said parents.

[–]azi-buki-vedi [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

A lot of discriminatory/sexist behaviour is done more for the sake of convenience than out of malice. Just because the administration may go along with it only to get the annoying parents out of their hair doesn't really reduce its impact, IMO.

Someone else in here mentioned how customers will ignore trained, capable female employees and go to the man to ask technical questions about computers. The manager may very well think it's best for business to just comply, but it is nevertheless sexists, and it's bound to breed resentment.

[–]Jozarin [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Yeah, but that discrimination doesn't come from the woman's co-workers... actually, knowing the tech industry...

Anyway, the point is it won't come from teachers or students, so /u/barakvesh shouldn't expect discrimination until he has to interact with parents.

[–]satansfloorbuffer 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

It's always interesting for me to compare my workplace to schools in terms of this, because it's also a heavily female place that teaches and interacts with lots of young children. The staff in my system is actually really good about not relying on the guys to do heavy lifting- I actually get told all the time to stop carrying the blue bins and get a cart even though they're only about 40-50lbs. The main form of sexism I encounter is from customers who bypass all of the more highly trained female staff in the research department on the incorrect assumption that I know more about troubleshooting our computers than they do.

[–]possumosaur 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

I wonder how this differs for alternative schools. I visited a Waldorf once, and there were actually a fair number of male teachers there. In that model, the same teacher moves with the class from 1st-8th grade, so that might have something to do with it too.

[–]Redisintegrate 37ポイント38ポイント  (16子コメント)

"There are lots of explanations for it," he said. "One is the nature of the elementary classroom. It's more feminized and it does turn boys off, perhaps because they are in trouble more or because the teaching style is more geared to girls' brains.

I've heard the argument about teaching styles and brain differences before and I don't buy it. We should remember to be careful when we try to use biology to explain social differences, since many of these claims of biological differences are founded in bad science.

Edit: I'm not arguing that there aren't neurochemical differences between boys and girls, but there are a few points we need to remember:

  • Different "learning styles" (auditory, visual, kinaesthetic, etc.) is a discredited theory from the 1970s.

  • Differences between individuals are usually much larger than differences between populations.

  • Socialization plays an enormous role here.

We can argue about nature vs. nurture all we want, but the consensus is that it is difficult at best to ascribe any particular observed social difference to any inherent biological difference, and the evidence linking biological differences to differences in behavior is quite poor. This is not to say that these differences do not exist, but rather we should be careful when making claims when we don't have the studies to back them up.

[–]TAKEitTOrCIRCLEJERK[S] 6ポイント7ポイント  (14子コメント)

There's lots of evidence that this is the case, and I think it's at our own peril (not to mention the peril of the boys in question) to ignore those differences.

Here's a narrative-style description of this, with sources at the end.

[–]Redisintegrate 22ポイント23ポイント  (13子コメント)

http://www.goodtherapy.org/blog/how-boys-learning-styles-differ-0211134

Yes, that's exactly the kind of article I'd like to warn people about. If you want to support claims of differences in neurochemistry, and how they relate to learning styles, please cite the actual studies instead of random blog posts like this.

The best way to approach this is to look for meta-analyses or literature reviews in peer-reviewed journals. The blog post linked above doesn't even really cite its sources, so it's kind of difficult to find out what the original researchers actually said. It only cites a couple books at the bottom, but books are fairly poor sources for material like this. Anyone can write a book, after all. There are some inline "citations" that are kind of worthless since they just give authors and dates, and don't actually tell you the name of the article or journal.

Unfortunately, these kind of junk science articles are all too common online. If I were grading this article as a paper I might have given it a C just because it failed to meet minimum standards for citing its sources.

Boys are hardwired to be single-task focused, whereas girls’ hardwiring demonstrates strength in multitasking. Transitions are more difficult for boys due to this lateralization of the brain versus typical female cross communication of brain hemispheres.

I dare you to repeat that passage to any reputable neuroscientist.

[–]TAKEitTOrCIRCLEJERK[S] 15ポイント16ポイント  (11子コメント)

http://www.jneurosci.org/content/32/7/2241.full

[–]Redisintegrate 28ポイント29ポイント  (10子コメント)

Yes, that's a good article, and it supports my earlier point. (Note that the article is in a very high impact factor journal, too. Good job.) The article talks about how poorly understood sexual differences are, and how there's a lack of good research into the differences between male and female neurochemistry. It's trying to address the problem, by providing models and methodologies for studying sexual differences.

You can see that with current state of neurochemistry, as explained in that excellent article, it is too difficult to relate differences in neurochemistry with social differences. There simply hasn't been enough work done in the field--yet. That is the "inconvenient truth" the article talks about, because it's inconvenient to construct a study that actually accounts for sexual differences, at least when you are studying neuroscience. (Well, the article actually claims that it's perceived as inconvenient, not that it is inconvenient.)

So we can acknowledge the inconvenient truth, or we can just make stuff up. I prefer an evidence-first approach. In the future, we'll have a better understanding of how neurochemical differences affect classroom learning, and if this turns out to be important we can use our future understanding of neurochemistry to guide our development of pedagogy.

But we can still just make stuff up and say crap like "boys are hardwired to be single-task focused" or that maybe the "teaching style is more geared to girls' brains". These kind of assertions are poorly supported by the current evidence. Maybe there's one or two studies that support those claims, but that's not good enough for policy changes. You can find one or two studies that support almost anything, like how eating refined sugar is good for you.

Let's keep an open mind here, rather than jump to conclusions about biological differences. Our "understanding" of biological differences was used as an excuse to keep women out of men's work in the past, and we should wait for the science to catch up so we don't make the same mistakes again.

[–]TAKEitTOrCIRCLEJERK[S] 14ポイント15ポイント  (9子コメント)

There's a load of evidence that boys respond better to certain styles of teaching, and there's a load of evidence that they're falling behind in schools because we stopped trying to teach them in the way they best respond to.

Even if this is socialized - and I don't think it is, but surrendering that point for a moment - we still have an obligation as a society to try to teach boys in a way that's accessible to them instead of demanding that they conform to girls' styles of learning. Because again: this damage is being done right now. This isn't a hypothetical scenario - boys are being left behind as I type this.

[–]Redisintegrate 15ポイント16ポイント  (8子コメント)

"Boys are being left behind..."

Yes, and in order to stop the damage, we need to make good policy decisions. It's very difficult to make good policy decisions on bad science. It's very easy to do bad science when you think you already know the answer. Perhaps you think it's self-evident that the difference between boys and girls in the classroom is mostly biological and only partly learned, perhaps you can find a couple studies here and there to back it up. Again, one or two studies can be found to support almost anything. That's why we read meta-analyses, literature reviews, et cetera.

Our goal, however, is not to understand what causes these differences, but rather to teach boys well. This is something you can test. You can put different children in systems with different teaching styles and use the available data to understand what teaching styles are more or less effective for different students. It's hard, it's a lot of work and money to actually do these studies, but we can do them. This is real science, no less real than neurochemistry.

While we're doing research in pedagogy to change how we educate our children, the researchers will cross-pollinate with researchers in neurochemistry, psychology, and other fields.

I just don't want any armchair neuroscientists on the school board.

[–]Dewey_Darl 17ポイント18ポイント  (6子コメント)

It's very difficult to make good policy decisions on bad science.

I agree in theory, but in this particular case how much does it really matter whether the root cause is more socialization or more biology?

I strongly believe that the school system and the classroom setting need to be altered to better accommodate the desires and behavior of boys. Whether or not these behaviors and desires come more form biology or socialization seems largely irrelevant to me.

I really think the focus needs to be more on your second paragraph and less on your first. I feel like debates like these end up distracting us from the common goals I'm sure we share.

[–]Redisintegrate 13ポイント14ポイント  (4子コメント)

I agree in theory, but in this particular case how much does it really matter whether the root cause is more socialization or more biology?

Yes, because our belief that ADHD is a neurological defect led doctors to use psychiatric medication as a first-line solution. Anyone who went to school in the 1990s probably knew someone on Ritalin, if not several. We have a better understanding of ADHD today, and how much of it is caused by social factors rather than neurological.

When I say that ADHD has societal causes, I am not dismissing the neurological differences. However, the neurological differences are not "ADHD" in and of themselves, rather, it's contextual patterns of behavior that cause ADHD to manifest as a disorder, and we can alleviate the symptoms by changing how classrooms are run. More recess is an effective ADHD treatment and its efficacy is backed by studies.

[–]Dewey_Darl 4ポイント5ポイント  (3子コメント)

For the sake of convenience I'll respond to both of your messages here.

So, I agree that biology/socialization is important if we start heading down the road of medical solutions to this issue. However I think that environment-based solutions such as restructuring the classroom and the school day and supporting male teachers will probably be more efficient and effective in the short term. Possibly more ethical as well. When we're talking about restructuring boys' environments to better fit their needs, I don't think it matters much whether those needs come more from socialization or biology.

In response to your second comment, I don't think this issue is irrelevant. I think it's fascinating and important. Just not necessarily for addressing this particular problem in the short term. Maybe I'm being a bit idealistic here, but it pains me to see two people who probably agree on possible solutions arguing over issues that don't seem all that relevant to those solutions.

[–]Redisintegrate 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

On a different note, I do feel like you're suggesting that I'm wasting my energy discussing an irrelevant subject here. I feel the same way when people talk about chess, but I keep my mouth shut.

[–]TAKEitTOrCIRCLEJERK[S] 11ポイント12ポイント  (0子コメント)

Again, though: even if biology plays no part in this, the social science is in. Boys are being under-served by our current setup. That needs to change now, before we lose even more of them.

[–]barsoap 8ポイント9ポイント  (0子コメント)

The way my sister (who studied special-needs pedagogy in Schleswig-Holstein and is now working as primary school teacher) explained things to me much of the problems have to do with differences in motor development: Boys develop gross motor skills first, then fine, girls the other way around.

So when a 2nd grade boy is bored they're getting restless and want to run around, while the girl is much more prone to doodling which is rather less disruptive. When they're old enough so that the motor development focus switched, they already have much more impulse control, too.

The solution is easy: Exhaust the kids with enough possibilities for movement (be that in recess or sport), on top of the good ole solution of making sure you're actually interesting.

That taken care of, she said, the differences between individuals of one sex become larger than the differences between the sexes.

[–]asaz989 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

What's interesting is that the quoted author feels like he has to throw in the fashionable faux-neuroscience stuff, but then when he talks about the actual phenomena involved it's all "School isn't just a female enterprise. That's what the presence of a man says to kids" - much more well-supported social science. I feel like a lot of scientists involved in public policy have just decided that educating the public on science is someone else's job, they're just going to say the appropriate magic incantations to get the system to do the right thing.

[–]Noswald [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

I'm studying to be a primary school teacher right now and every time I read about these it makes me more scared about he possibility of his happening.

[–]azi-buki-vedi [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

You're doing good, man. Even if you come across people like that (there is no guarantee you will!), remember your self-worth and that what you're doing is important and badly needed right now. Sexists gon' sexist, but don't let them get you down. And if they do... you can always come here and find a sympathetic bunch willing to listen and give encouragement. :)