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[–]lnstantKarma -17ポイント-16ポイント  (79子コメント)

You're an ignorant bigotted asshole if you think "There are only two genders and they are sharply defined! It's science!"

You're ignorant of a number of well-characterized and fairly common conditions discovered by science that cause ambiguity in sexual characteristics.

I can name seven and I'm sure there are many more:

  • Turner's
  • Klinefelter's
  • Congenital Adrenal Hyperplasia
  • Ovotesticular Disorder of Sexual Development
  • 5-Alpha Reductase Deficiency
  • Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome
  • Aromatase Deficiency

Not only are you hacks bigoted, but you are lazy too.

[–]joebags15[S] 16ポイント17ポイント  (22子コメント)

I know this is a joke (hope) but to put this to bed. sex is a result of physical characteristics, so the above are describing deviations in the normal physical traits (one's sex.)

Gender is the construct by which you define yourself as a member of a sex - Which would mean that identifying as a gender that does not correspond with your sex is a psychological rather than physical abnormality.

[–]Zeppelanoid 6ポイント7ポイント  (1子コメント)

Is this copy pasta? Can it be?

[–]lnstantKarma -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

Please copy and paste this wherever you like. It will help educate people that intersex people actually exist and you can't define gender exclusively by genitals.

[–]nmotsch789 1ポイント2ポイント  (39子コメント)

Defects and disorders are not genders. If you have a Y chromosome, you are biologically male. If you don't, you're biologically female.

[–]JacobKebm 1ポイント2ポイント  (3子コメント)

Sex and gender are not the same

[–]nmotsch789 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

One heavily affects the other. Gender is not solely a social construct, and social constructs can be based on biology.

[–]JacobKebm -1ポイント0ポイント  (1子コメント)

It's true that gender and sex heavily correlate, but it's not that way for everybody.

[–]nmotsch789 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

If you're talking about transgender people, I totally understand that they are the exception. However, even for them, there are still only two genders and two sexes. No surgery in the world can change your biological sex, and transgender people should aim to transition from one gender to the other, not to be some special in-between seperate gender.

[–]lnstantKarma 0ポイント1ポイント  (34子コメント)

What if you're intersex and you have both male and female genitalia? How do you define your gender?

[–]ulpisen 0ポイント1ポイント  (25子コメント)

/u/nmotsch789 didn't mention genetalia, they mentioned chromosomes I guess if some parts of you have Y chromosomes and some parts of you have XX, then your sex would be a bit male and a bit female, still wouldn't cause the existance of a third sex

[–]lnstantKarma 0ポイント1ポイント  (24子コメント)

You admit there are people who don't fit into one of your two sharply-defined boxes. Would that mean there is perhaps a THIRD box?

[–]ulpisen 3ポイント4ポイント  (23子コメント)

sure, I'm not dismissing that possibility, but I don't think that the fact that a very small amount of people seem to belong partially to both groups is enough to justify a third group

[–]lnstantKarma -2ポイント-1ポイント  (22子コメント)

Disregarding gender, gay people are a minority. Does that mean it isn't justified for them to have their own group and call themselves gay? Can't you see how not allowing people their own category is denying their existence?

[–]ulpisen 1ポイント2ポイント  (21子コメント)

Gay people are a minority. Does that mean it isn't justified for them to have their own group?

no, it's justified, but they are extremely distinct in their sexuality from straight people, but perhaps a better comparison would be some other sexual attraction that is less common and more compatible with other sexualities would be for example people who have a sexual attraction to feet, if people started saying that there are straight people, gay people, bi people and people who get off to feet, people would say that the last group doesn't really belong on that list.

Can't you see how not allowing people their own category is denying their existence?

firstly, that's a very dramatic way of puting it, I'm not "not allowing" them their own category, they can categorize themselves as whatever they want and if I think they are not accurately describing reality I might comment on it, I'm not opressing anyone.

secondly, if anything I'm saying that they are not sufficiently different from other people to warrent their own category, that's pretty inclusive, the opposite of discriminating against them

[–]lnstantKarma -3ポイント-2ポイント  (20子コメント)

no, it's justified, but they are extremely distinct in their sexuality from straight people,

What about bisexual people then? Do they not get a category?

I'm not "not allowing" them their own category, they can categorize themselves as whatever they want

Then why say there are only two genders? That's not being inclusive.

[–]ulpisen 1ポイント2ポイント  (19子コメント)

What about bisexual people then? Do they not get a category?

sure, I think if bisexuality wasn't already a commonly used term it'd be fine to say "I'm both"

Then why say there are only two genders? That's not being inclusive.

it is inclusive if you define everyone to fall under those two genders, it'd also be inclusive to say that there's only one gender, and everyone is that one gender. the actual problem is whether or not that accurately describes reality

[–]nmotsch789 0ポイント1ポイント  (7子コメント)

I literally just said that it depends on whether they have a Y chromosome. Birth defects are not genders.

[–]lnstantKarma -1ポイント0ポイント  (6子コメント)

So you want to force people to identify a certain way. What if you have both male and female genitals and you don't want to be defined as ONLY male or ONLY female?

[–]nmotsch789 1ポイント2ポイント  (5子コメント)

Why does it matter how you feel like defining yourself as? Why does everything have to have a label on it? One man might be more effeminate than another, why do they need a special label for that? They're both men. One person may have a birth defect. Why do they need a special label for that beyond the name of the defect? And why does the label have to count as a "gender"? And why should we have to redefine our language to accommodate the miniscule amount of people with abnormal bodies?

[–]lnstantKarma -1ポイント0ポイント  (4子コメント)

Why does everything have to have a label on it?

Just because someone is a minority doesn't mean they don't get a label. Gay people are a minority but they get a label.

Don't you see how it's hate speech to say someone doesn't exist? You wouldn't go to a gay pride parade and say that gay people don't get a label.

[–]nmotsch789 1ポイント2ポイント  (3子コメント)

You ignored my point. Why do they need a label beyond a descriptor? If every single person has their own unique label, then it defeats the point of labels. And when did I ever say that they didn't exist? I specifically acknowledged that they exist. But you can't ignore the fact that they're in the extreme minority of people.

[–]lnstantKarma -1ポイント0ポイント  (2子コメント)

You admit though that people don't fit into two sharply-defined boxes. Saying there are only two boxes is denying that an entire group of people doesn't exist. Gay people are a minority and saying they don't exist is hate speech.

Imagine you are an intersex person with both male and female genitalia. It looks like you are both male and female and you aren't sure what you should describe yourself as. What should you do? How would you feel if someone told you that you don't get your own identity?

[–]nmotsch789 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

You would describe yourself as biologically intersex, and your biological sex would depend on whether you have a Y chromosome. As for what gender you identify as, it really doesn't matter too much. Just do whatever you're more comfortable doing, and identify as whatever gender you are closer to.

Also, I specifically said that these conditions exist, but that they aren't their own genders. That's not the same as saying these people don't exist, and that's kind of a bizarre strawman for you to keep going back to.

[–]Nixdaboss -1ポイント0ポイント  (13子コメント)

You either have a penis or a vagina, sorry buddy

[–]lnstantKarma 1ポイント2ポイント  (12子コメント)

What about intersex people who have both male and female genitalia?

[–]Nixdaboss 0ポイント1ポイント  (11子コメント)

Well, I would imagine they would be considered either one sex or the other legally. Scientifically, that's an anomaly

[–]lnstantKarma -1ポイント0ポイント  (10子コメント)

Scientifically, that's an anomaly

http://www.isna.org/faq/ten_myths/rare

But wait, you say, 1 in 2,000 sounds rare! Well, if only 1 in 2,000 persons is intersexed, then intersex is more common than cystic fibrosis, a condition most people have heard of. In fact, as Sherri Groveman pointed out in her article in Intersex in the Age of Ethics, if you do the math, you realize that there are more intersexed people in the world than there are Jewish people!

[–]Nixdaboss 1ポイント2ポイント  (9子コメント)

Yes but most of those people identify as one sex. They don't just stay in between.

[–]lnstantKarma -1ポイント0ポイント  (8子コメント)

Yes but most of those people identify as one sex. They don't just stay in between.

This is extremely ignorant. There are a lot of intersex people who don't want to be forced to fit into one box or the other. They have both characteristics and they don't want to deny an entire side of their sex.

[–]Nixdaboss 0ポイント1ポイント  (7子コメント)

Okay, its still abnormal though.

The definition of normal:

conforming to a standard; usual, typical, or expected

So by definition, if you have both a penis and vagina you're abnormal. I'm not sure why this is so hard. I agree that people should choose to be whoever they want based on how they feel, but scientifically they have to be a man or a woman. If you can find a source of someone who can both impregnate a woman, as well as bear a child, I'll admit you're right

[–]lnstantKarma 0ポイント1ポイント  (6子コメント)

but scientifically they have to be a man or a woman.

Link me the research paper denying that intersex people exist. There are a lot of intersex people who shouldn't be forced to fit into one box or the other. They have both male and female characteristics and they shouldn't be forced to deny an entire side of their sex.

[–]Nixdaboss 0ポイント1ポイント  (5子コメント)

I'll say again, show me someone who can give birth as well as impregnate or you're just incorrect. We aren't on the same page here obviously.