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ADVICERepost from /r/redpillwomen: Help with my mindset? How much should I be giving him when we're not married but we already have sex? Balance b/w proving I'm wife-material but not giving him everything. (self.RedPillWives)

nouvelle_rouge が 投稿

This is a repost. One of the mods saw my post and suggested I repost it here, and I must say that I already am feeling a lot better about my situation after reading some of the things here- particularly the thread where the OP recommits herself to her husband and family. I am more looking for things like that to sort of tame the resentful hamster that's been spinning in my head a bit recently. Someone in the original post also suggested making a list of everything awesome my boyfriend has done and I think that's a great idea to refer back to when I'm feeling this way. I can be lengthy when I write so I've added some summaries in bold if you just feel like skimming.

Original Post:

I have been exculsively dating my boyfriend for over a year and a half and I'd consider us "serious" (saying "I love you") for about a year and three months...(I'm at least going to pretend I don't know the exact date and time...)

We've been having sex for over a year and a half (exclusively dating) but we've known each other/flirting/talking/dating for even longer than that. Our relationship progressed very slow.

My ultimate goal is marriage- maybe not necessarily on paper at a courthouse but certainly a secure, lifetime commitment and, given we stay financially secure, children.

So I am trying to find a balance of wanting to prove to him that I am wife material but also not giving him the milk for free (don't buy the cow if you can have the milk for free)...I've already told him I won't live with him before marriage. Comment: I understand the cow/milk reference refers to sex and I just want to clarify I'm not asking if I should withhold sex or not- my point is that I would never withhold sex, but am now wondering if there is anything else I should be saving for marriage- like a certain level of commitment or obedience or something.

My usual mindset is that I would do anything for him (more "proving I'm wife material" behavior) but unfortunately my actual attitude behind those motions has become a bit resentful- I feel like I sort of set a very good precedent in the beginning, but now he will expect sort of wifely obedience from me, and I will resent that because I feel like he doesn't really give me the same security that a husband would.

A couple of examples:

  1. I had mentioned that I wanted to switch gyms, and he was changing his mind on whether or not he thought the gym he went to was a good fit. He brought me one weekend, and I loved it, and he said it was a lot of fun. So a few days later I mention that I am considering switching and might try a 7-day trial, if that was ok with him. First he starts telling me that traffic would be bad from my apartment, and I said that I would likely go to the location closer to my apartment. He insists it's a lot farther than this alternate gym, but I know it's not, as my roommate goes. So I bring this up (my intent wasn't to argue but rather to discuss the gym based on accurate information as it really is the least expensive, closest gym that isn't completely ratchet) and he gets offended that I'm not listening to him. He starts going off on how that gym is his territory, and I was a little butthurt because it sounded like he didn't want to run in to me at the gym, but I didn't see why I couldn't just go to the location closer to my apartment, which he rarely goes to (as there is one closer to his place). He got really angry and so I shut up and let him be. The next morning he explained that I was right about the gym, that it probably was the best fit and definitely close to me, but that, at the time, he was really upset because if he says it's too far for me, I should just trust him because he's the gym expert. I mean this hurt my feelings because I consider myself to be a pretty naturally submissive person, so when he said that the main problem was that I didn't immediately shut up and trust him, it made me feel like his standards were super high. Comment: the main gist here is that he got mad and didn't feel respected when I questioned/started poking holes in what he was saying, even though he later admit that I was right about the thing I asked about. I absolutely get it but it just sucked to hear because I wasn't intentionally trying to challenge him.

  2. This kid from my middle school who I stayed friends with throughout high school and somewhat in college (but didn't keep in touch much after, as I realized the true dynamics of the "friend zone" after that) wrote on my fb wall. It was a little inside-jokey but at the end he asked how I was and I responded by just acknowledging it...he then responded again and asked how I was and what I was doing and so I answered his question and to be polite, reciprocated by asking him the same. My boyfriend was a little uncomfortable because he thought the conversation was going toward "oh we should meet up some time" (to be fair, he did ask me "where do you work") and so in order to make things right, I defriended the guy and removed the posts from my wall. I don't think I'm leaving out any flirtatious details here, but you all are welcome to make your own inferences. Anyway, while the situation, to me, seemed like not a big deal, I still felt I went above and beyond to make sure the situation wasn't a problem any more. So I feel like I'm sort of walking on eggshells hoping I don't do anything wrong and trying to be the best rpw I can be, and yet I am not feeling like my bf would really go out of his way to make sure I'm secure- but maybe this is a guy thing and I'm overthinking it? There have been a couple of times where my bf's interactions with a female have made me insecure or the way he manages time makes me feel like he doesn't care, and while he may sometimes go out of his way on his own to try and fix it, I feel it usually pales in comparison to what I would do at that moment. Eventually after telling him how I feel a few times he will actually fix the problem for me, but then I resent the fact that it took so long for him to realize it was a real, legitimate issue for me, and I also feel he's not really happy to solve the problem, more just doing what he thinks I want to get me to stop bringing it up. Perhaps part of the problem is that I don't bring anything up until it's so big of an issue, I'm stewing about it and no longer have the patience for him to solve it in his pace. But anyway, I start comparing situations like "oh I did THIS for that thing you had a problem with but you're only doing that for my issue?" and feel like he sort of expects me to treat him in a way a wife would treat a husband, but he doesn't really treat me, imo, how a husband would treat a wife. While I screwed up and probably should have just ignored the facebook post, my point here is that I felt I overcorrected the problem and felt a bit resentful because I feel if he were in the same situation, he wouldn't have unfriended the girl. I do realize guys should have a bit more leeway because in his case, it would more be dread game wheras in my case, it's plain disrespectful, but I guess I still feel that even in a more obviously flirting example, he wouldn't handle it with the same level as care as I would, but I know I shouldn't compare. I just wish I knew how to stop doing that??

Anyway, these feelings I have are making it hard for me to want to be submissive to him, even though I do love him. I guess it just makes me think that maybe I shouldn't be killing myself to give 110% and make him earn it...but I feel like this mindset also puts me in a mindset of entitlement- like I should be wanting to prove myself to him, and I guess he shouldn't have to worry about proving himself to me now that we've been dating a while, but I still can't help thinking sometimes that maybe I shouldn't be giving 110% until we're married.

IDK.

Any past posts you ladies could point me to about being pleasant and genuinely grateful for your SO? I feel like I could use some inspiration. My boyfriend truly is a great leader and I've never felt so strongly about anyone and ultimately, when something bothers me, he really does fix it in time, but our dynamic lately has left me feeling like he not only thinks I'm an unreasonable shrew but that he has very strict standards when I truly don't think I'm all that unreasonable.

Just...my feelings I guess.

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[–]Camille11325 4ポイント5ポイント  (7子コメント)

Welcome to the sub! Thank you for such a detailed and thorough post, you gave a really clear picture of all that is going on and I am sure the women in this community can help you out with your situation :)

The first thing I want to make clear, before anything else, is that RPW is not about submitting/deferring to a man blindly. If someone truly has not earned a certain level of devotion or trust you should not grant it to them in the hopes that it will motivate them to improve or change. Based on these few examples it isn't clear if your boyfriend is failing to live up to any real duties, or if this is mostly an issue with you. You need to be honest when evaluating yourself and the relationship; don't cling to a fantasy that you've built up in your head. I'm not saying this is what you're doing, it's just a general warning, because if this guy isn't actually worth it you could go down the wrong path of making excuses for him and giving yourself entirely to someone who doesn't deserve it.

That being said, you have provided some great analysis of your own actions and the rest of my comment will be operating under the assumption that shaping up your own thought processes and habits will lead to a more harmonious relationship.

As far as your first example goes, yes plenty of men will get frustrated if they feel like they aren't being listened to. Even if you have the purest of intentions, every additional word you say in disagreement will only further anger them in that moment. The remedy to this issue is self awareness. Pay attention to his moods and speak with intention so that you don't accidentally rub him the wrong way. Sometimes, not saying anything is actually the best course of action. Of course this doesn't mean you should be tip toeing around his emotions, just practise consideration taking his specific needs and personalty into account. Are you familiar at all with Myers Briggs types? Learning about his type can help you navigate these situations better.

When it comes to interactions with other men, every man will have his own preference for what is and isn't okay. It is great that you respected his boundaries and put an end to all communication with this old friend. Instead of ruminating on tit for tat thoughts, why not be grateful that you have someone who cares about you this much? When a man engages in "mate guarding" it shows that he is invested in you! Is he actually having inappropriate interactions with other women, or are you just experiencing natural dread? I can respond more on that part when I have more information.

Finally, when it comes to how much to give of yourself and when, that is an excellent question to ask yourself, and the women here. At RPW we stress that there is a huge difference between an LTR and a marriage. My personal opinion is that you should be a consistently wonderful person who takes his preferences into account and strives to enhance his life. But you have to remember that your life is your first priority, and you should not ignore warning signs or red flags. A woman who is married for 15 years can forgive a man for cheating on her, there is no reason why an unmarried woman should feel obligated to stand by someone who disrespects the commitment he gave. That is just one example but I hope the point I am making is clear.

Let me know what else I can expand on, and after you respond I'll link you to some of the best that RPWives has in terms of relevant posts :)

[–]MsSadieDunham27 | married 2 years | LLL 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

A woman who is married for 15 years can forgive a man for cheating on her, there is no reason why an unmarried woman should feel obligated to stand by someone who disrespects the commitment he gave.

Spot on. This and problems like this are the red flags unmarried but LTR women should look for.

[–]nouvelle_rouge[S] 2ポイント3ポイント  (5子コメント)

Thank you so much for your helpful post!!!

So I definitely agree that in the early stages of a relationship, you definitely should focus on yourself and have more of an attitude where you assess the guy and make sure he earns your devotion, trust, and respect. My boyfriend passed the beggining dating phase with flying colors and so I naturally was very happy to go out of my way to make sure he seeemd happy, and I think that that attitude played a huge part in him wanting to make things exclusive and more serious.

In terms of failing any real/basic duties, he has not. He is very protective of me, looks after me, cares for me, and he would never lie to me or physically cheat on me. However, a couple of times I do think he gets sort of on the edge of my boundaries and comes close to crossing them, and that is very scary and makes me uncomfortable (instances elaborated at the bottom). Surrendering has helped but when he gets close to those boundaries I start to get tense and crave control back. Every instance where he's gotten close, he has fixed 100%- it's just that it wasn't as fast as I would have liked, and I guess that what causes my resentful attitude- and I'm hoping/realizing that just a bit more patience will help me out. The biggest thing I think that makes me feel better is that patience has worked for me in the past, so there is no reason to believe something will happen in the future.

I'm glad I'm on the right track with my self-analysis! Thank you!

I am also really glad that you mentioned that plenty of men will get frustrated when they feel like they aren't being listened to. This actually kind of assures me that nothing is wrong in our relationship and it's just a guy thing, and furthermore that maybe his standards of obedience aren't too high compared to other guys. I will definitely try to work on knowing when I'm agitating him. Looking back to that particular situation, I did see that he was getting a bit annoyed, but I wasnt picking up really on what it was- I actually thought he was annoyed about the possibility of running in to me at the gym, and that hurt my feelings, and then led me to suggest that I would go to the other location in an attempt to fix that problem, when really I was just arguing more. I definitely should have just cooled it and knowing this going forward I hope I can think about it before letting my imagination get carried away. I am familiar with Myers Briggs!! I'm an INTP and I would peg my boyfriend as an ENTJ probably (though weak E).

Instead of ruminating on tit for tat thoughts, why not be grateful that you have someone who cares about you this much?

Yes ugh I wish I could internalize this mindset so that this is the first thing I think about instead of the tit-for-tat.

So to elaborate just a bit on him getting close to my boundaries/interactions with other women:

I'll try to keep this short. Basically girls find my boyfriend not only attractive but very approachable and friendly. So in the beginning of our relationship there were a couple of girls who really were aggressively hitting on him. While my boyfriend DID do a bunch of things to try and make me more comfortable (on his own...I never asked him to do any of this), and telling one girl he had a GF even before he had officially labled me as such, he still conintued to be what I would consider flirty whenever they texted him, and it led to one of them inviting him over late night at 3am and the other one inviting him out of town telling him to not bring his gf. I was on the verge of ending things with him, and it wasn't until then that he realized how uncomfortable I was and how I wasn't OK with other girls thinking they could ask him these things and actually think they'd be successful. He then offered to cut contact with the one that bothered me the most, and I took him up on that offer- but I guess I feel that he had to fix the situation with this sort of drastic solution because he did not fix the situation earlier (like by say, not flirting as much back). It's hard to say whether he was being inappropriate at that stage in our relationship or whether I was being overly insecure because I think also the girls were more aggressively into him than typical girls- I for one would not invite a guy out of town if I've only met him a couple of times and haven't seen him around in a couple of months- or if he has rejected my invites to happy hour or told me he has a gf, etc. I got massive closure on the situation when we ran in to one of those girls not long after and he was very affectionate toward me in front of the girl. There also has never been anything of that magnitude since, and obviously we are both on the same page that at this stage in our relationship (the more serious stage), that would absolutely not be appropriate. Neither of us ever really talk to people of the opposite sex, and stuff like that simply is not a problem anymore. And as you can see, at the time he did actively try to fix the problem for me, but it reached a point where I was very uncomfortable and he fixed it in the nick of time. Meanwhile, I feel I not only attend to his needs immediately, but that he almost expects me to fix situations like that immediately. There were a couple of situations with our respective exes (nothing crazy inappropriate just them texting us and both of us not knowing how to handle it), and I felt I really nipped things on my end in the bud whereas his situation dragged on a bit longer than I would have liked. -Another sort of thing (this doesn't have to do with boy/girl interactions) was him keeping me in the loop about when plans change, etc. or about talking about plans but being ambiguous about whether or not they were concrete. I felt I was always very flexible for him but that if any sort of obstacle/extra piece of information came up on my end, he was a lot less flexible. There were a lot of issues going in to play but basically the situation did not resolve itself until I felt it was a really huge issue, but then when I was finally able to get that through, we truly resolved it, and that issue is 100% behind us now.

I mean geeze writing this all out reminds me that things really do get fixed, I just need to be patient and realize not everyone can be as fast-acting as me.

Anyway, I absolutely agree I'm trying to figure out how much of myself to give and when and that this is because I agree there is a huge difference between an LTR and a marriage. And this is the balance I guess I'm asking about in my post. I will definitely continue down the road of "proving I'm wife material" and try harder to internalize gratitude, patience, and trust. I guess the thing for me is, since we are already having sex, right now the things that separate my relationship from marriage are: - We don't live together (but we sleep over everynight) - We don't share finances - We don't have children - We don't have a promised, lifelong commitment to each other

But it is very similar in that we DO sleep over a lot, we DO have sex, we plan time off/vacations around each other, and even jobs/work related things around each other. In my treatment of him, I think the only thing that would be different if he were my husband is I'd probably be a bit more trusting because I'd feel a bit more secure, and I'd probably be more patient. The thing is, I would hope that if he were my husband, he would perhaps try to take any problems I bring up a bit more seriously. But I suppose if that's it I'm really not in a bad spot.

Anyway thanks for your comment, as I learned a lot not only in your post but also in my reply. I think I can do this!

[–]Camille11325 2ポイント3ポイント  (4子コメント)

I have no doubt you can do this :)

The common theme I am picking up from your post and comments is that you are fixated on the idea of "fairness". You are constantly comparing your boyfriend's actions to your own and measuring his worth in terms of how closely he aligns with your way of doing things. This is something that will have to change if you want to have a successful, long lasting relationship with this man (or any man). Here are some reasons I think that you have this tendency:

  • Female solipsism - This seems to be your thought process, "If I were in X situation, I would do Y. Because it is clear to me that Y is the solution, anyone else in situation X would also do Y." You also seem to be thinking, "Anyone who shares my feelings would obviously arrive at Y. Therefore, If someone does not do Y, it must be because they don't share the same feelings as me." Can you see how this is wrong and harmful to your relationship? Your boyfriend is not you! He approaches situations differently because he is his own person with his own motivations, interests, strengths, and weaknesses. Doing something differently is not the same as doing something incorrectly. But, maybe you're right and he actually did act too slowly, it doesn't automatically mean that he doesn't feel as strongly about you.

  • Transactional thinking - Read this post for more information, it is short and sums everything up nicely :)

  • Naturally occurring "dread" - Are you familiar with the concept of dread/dread game? Basically when a man does something that demonstrates his value it can create anxiety within the woman because she recognises that her position is less stable the more other women are attracted to him (because as his value increases, so does his options, and those options could be better than what he already has). A man doesn't need to intentionally try to illicit this response, something as simple as being attractive and having a great personality can cause a woman to be consumed with worry. The solution is to channel this (completely normal and understandable) insecurity and let it motivate you to be a better SO! Be proud that you are with a man that other women want, it means you won haha

  • Personality type clashes - That is great that you know what both of your types are! We are big on MBTI in RPW and are always finding new ways to connect the types to various RP concepts. Have you read this article? It talks about how each type expresses love and asks to receive love. In addition to this you may want to look into love languages and see if you can improve things by engaging with your SO in the way that will resonate with him the most :)

Hope this all helps, let me know if you have any other questions or concerns or additional thoughts. In terms of where to go from here, be sure to read the posts in the wiki as well as the top posts of the sub so far!

[–]cxj 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

Awww yeah my post got referenced

sunglasses emoji

[–]Camille11325 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

Your post is also in our wiki under the "Essential Posts" section :)

[–]nouvelle_rouge[S] 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

You also seem to be thinking, "Anyone who shares my feelings would obviously arrive at Y. Therefore, If someone does not do Y, it must be because they don't share the same feelings as me." Can you see how this is wrong and harmful to your relationship? Your boyfriend is not you! He approaches situations differently because he is his own person with his own motivations, interests, strengths, and weaknesses.

This I identify with and we've actually talked a lot about this. It can actually go the other way too. Recently my boyfriend and I were out and we ran in to my ex from high school and his parents. The parents noticed me and asked me how I was doing, and then since my boyfriend was standing right next to me I figured the natural thing to do was introduce everyone to my boyfriend. We chatted for a bit and headed out. My boyfriend was upset because he didn't want to be introduced- he wanted to be shielded from the situation and get out of there asap. I was shocked because if I were in that situation, I wouldn't want to feel like I was being hidden from his ex and her family and would want to have been introduced as his girlfriend. We talked about it but realized that this was a perfect example of how we both approach situations differently but assumed the other person would approach it like we would. He was glad we talked about it because now he knows not to shoo me away if we ever run in to any of his exes (hopefully we don't...)

Transactional thinking

I JUST read that one! Thanks so much! Definitel relatable.

Naturally occurring "dread"

I am familiar with this for sure from reading a lot about it. It sucks because I've noticed the more serious we become and the more I fall for him, the less tolerance I have for it. For example, when we were first seeing each other I didn't really care what he did in his spare time or if he were in a group that included girls without me. But like now, he is out of town on a mostly-guys' weekend/birthday trip, but they are staying at birthday boys' gf's beach house and she has one other girl friend there, and of course I'm a little anxious because what if that one other girl friend is cute or something? (He's already called me a few times today though so I KNOW he's committed to me but wow).

Personality type clashes

I'll definitely look in to this.

Thank you!!!

[–]MsSadieDunham27 | married 2 years | LLL 1ポイント2ポイント  (12子コメント)

Welcome to the sub! I think you'll like it here! :-)

[–]nouvelle_rouge[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (11子コメント)

Thank you!!! I already do!

[–]_wingnut_ 5ポイント6ポイント  (10子コメント)

My h is an ENTJ. They require near total obedience and treat the people on their universe like games pieces on a board game. when you are loved by an ENTJ, you really have to let them "own" you and there is often little "fairness". That type requires an inordinate amount of selflessness.

[–]nouvelle_rouge[S] 1ポイント2ポイント  (6子コメント)

I'm really glad you commented here because this honestly reassures me that the imbalance isn't a red flag or that he doesn't care as much. It is really great to hear that that's how it should be working and that there are successful relationships with that dynamic. I think I would be OK letting him own me to a pretty large extent, as he is a good captain, as long as I know that that is what's happening. I guess sometimes I'm scared that the lack of fairness like that means he doesn't care about me as much, but I can absolutely get on board with that dynamic knowing that other husbands and wives have that dynamic. Thanks :)

EDIT: Question, if you don't mind me asking: Did you have this same dynamic in the earlier stages of dating? Were you always extremely obedient, and then get more security on his end after? Or did you start to become more obedient as he provided more security to you?

[–]_wingnut_ 1ポイント2ポイント  (5子コメント)

i tink it developed over time, he definitely compliance tested me, and i didnt pass them all but i passed pretty well

you do not get to be the star of your relationship with an ENTJ. they will only care about you the way THEY care about people, they will never do things "Because you want them to" or "just for you". to be with them you have to learn to accept love as they show it, which will NEVER EVER be anything but selfishly on their end. theyd die for you, but they wont do soemthign for you the way you want it, on your timeline, just becaus eyou want them to. they arent easy

[–]nouvelle_rouge[S] 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

Thank you for the insight here. I have a feeling my bf might be kind of similar to your h.

[–]_wingnut_ 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

please feel free to come talk to me in the IRC i dont like this format for in depth discussion

[–]cxj 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

Ohhhh no :, (

This explains so much.

[–]_wingnut_ 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

lie down on this couch here, ill tell you everything about yourself

[–]cxj 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

Ohhhh shit I'm ENTJ - T. No wonder u think I'm "alpha" lol. NOT Sure What the T means tbh.

[–]muffinsandpuffins 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Mine is too. It's been a hard pill to swallow, but I do need to set myself and my interests aside in all situations.

[–]maya_elenaMid-20s, married, 3 yrs total 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Hmm, I'd posit that the core issue in your relationship is that, fundamentally, you do not trust him.Why not? Are you being irrational? Or is he giving off subtle warning signals that he doesn't want to be with you long-term?

Let's look at the Facebook incident as an example. You feel resentful because you made a sacrifice and he didn't acknowledge it properly. (Covert contract!) But did you actually need to make that sacrifice? Did he know you made it, and does he know what he's supposed to do in response? Let's look at the possibilities:

*He is irrationally jealous, and would blow up at you or (even worse) get all passive-aggressive if you didn't block this guy. (This may be potential grounds for relationship termination.)

*An apology and a "I'm not going to meet up with him!" would have sufficed, but you decided you would go even further (just to spite him!)!

*You are actually attracted to this Facebook guy, and all of your rationalizations are just to cover up your own guilt.

And like that in every seemingly minor altercation. Is his misbehavior a pattern of disrespect towards you, immature passive aggression, etc.? Or are you making a mountain out of a mole hill? Mind you, I don't know the answers, but that's how I would approach sorting through all the bad feelings and deciding whether to keep him around or not.