全 46 件のコメント

[–]kodark 10ポイント11ポイント  (0子コメント)

Because if we don't have any environmental regulations, we're flat-out fucked.

[–]Ryonez_17 10ポイント11ポイント  (2子コメント)

I am not an economist so I'm not in a position to comment from any professional perspective, but I disagree with Libertarianism because from what I've seen, capitalism without governmental oversight results in corporate monopolies, wage stagnation, and massive unemployment. The Sherman Anti-Trust Act is a law that is antithetical to modern Libertarianism but it has done an okay job of preventing corporate strangleholds on American consumers. A lack of governmental oversight might work in countries like Canada, where the mindset of the masses is set on mutual cooperation and a lifestyle not focused on getting more and more stuff, but in America, our culture is different. We are a highly competitive nation, and almost all of us have a deeply-ingrained attitude of "I've got mine, fuck you!" There is very little legitimate corporate interest in the greater good, or the betterment of society- the only concern is money, and how to maximize revenue while minimizing overhead. With an attitude like that, a lack of governmental oversight can and will result in employers paying their workers starvation wages while raking in the dough. Will every company do this? No. Will a lot of them? Yes. Will workers attempt to leave these companies for companies that pay better wages? Yes they will, but in all likelihood these individuals will take their skills overseas into countries with better pay and better labor laws, causing the US to hemorrhage skilled labor.

Leaving aside issues of the economy, I am also concerned about the Libertarian stance on social issues. Modern American Libertarianism is very supportive of the idea of the States' rights to legislate social issues within their borders. Decent idea on paper, until you realize that if given the opportunity, Mississippi and Alabama and Texas and Louisiana and states of their ilk will restrict liberties of racial, gender, and sexual minorities. Think trans* people not being able to access their correct bathrooms is the end of it? Not in the slightest. If public opinion polls in those states were done correctly, you'll see the reversal of Obergefell v. Hodges within a year, and the re-criminalization of sodomy within two or three. From there it's not a very big leap to out-and-out segregation- first of gender and sexual minorities, then racial ones. States will vote to limit the civil rights of the minority through democratic law, and the Tyranny of the Majority will become a daily reality for millions of Americans. Could these oppressed GSRMs simply move to more socially evolved states? Many could, absolutely. Those that could afford it would. But what about those who can't afford it? What about the GSRMs that lost their jobs due to newly-enacted laws that permit employers to fire or refuse to hire people based solely on their race, sexuality, or gender identity? Because the Libertarian Federal Government has little to offer in the way of Social Programs, they would likely become homeless.

Modern Libertarianism can work in the UK. It can work in Canada. It can work in countries where the widespread cultural attitude and mindset is the helping of others and the betterment of society. But America, where the dominant socioeconomic mindset is that of taking as much as one can get and not stopping to help the less fortunate, cannot sustain a truly Libertarian government for longer than a decade.

[–]Foobucket -4ポイント-3ポイント  (1子コメント)

I think your analysis is fundamentally flawed. We've never had a real capitalist society in the US, ever. We've had varying degrees of corporatism, which is completely different. A real libertarian government would keep companies out of politics, no lobbyism, no backdoor deals or bailouts, etc. We haven't ever had that, so your methods to coming to your conclusions are wrong. Also, how can you say something like the UK and Canada are caring societies but the US isn't? Have you lived there, do you know every person? Is there some kind of legitimate study that you can back up that claim with? No.

The US spends more money in foreign aid and internal entitlements for it's own citizens than any other country in the world. Please do research before you make outlandish claims with no backing. As you said, you're not an economist, so don't pretend to be by making ridiculous assumptions.

[–]Ryonez_17 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

I've had the privilege of engaging in conversations relating to economic issues with people involved in the economies of Canada and the UK. The UK was hit relatively badly by the recession, but Canada... not so much. I asked my Canadian acquaintance (who is involved pretty intimately with banking in that country) what made Canada so unique in its economics that allowed it to dodge the recession pretty much unscathed, at least compared to most other first world countries. He said that it had little to do with economic policies, and a lot more to do with culture. The Canadian culture, is, by and large, not materialist. They, as a whole, do not constantly strive to buy more stuff. They are okay with sacrificing luxuries to help pay for those who can't afford the basics. That isn't the result of a socialist government forcing the redistribution of wealth- it stems from the country's populace, disregarding a few outliers, wanting to help its fellow citizens and the world as a whole. Americans do not have that cultural element. We, as a society, are competitive. We, as a society, favor our own gain as opposed to the gain of others. There was a result published in multiple scientific journals, the result of thousands of studies of behavioral economics, codified brilliantly in this article by Michael Shermer, that states that the average American, when given an option between making 50,000 dollars per year when everyone else made 25,000, or making 100,000 dollars a year when everyone else made 250,000 dollars a year, would take the first option. The average American would sacrifice fifty thousand dollars per year for the privilege of saying "I make more money that anyone else." If that doesn't speak to the culture of greed, I don't know what would.

The Libertarianism that you describe, in which America is free of any kind of corporatism, lobbying, bailouts, back room deals, is a fantasy America. Not only is it predicated on imagining the existence of an America that will never exist- it also necessitates a complete denial of human nature, and assuming that no one group will attempt to form a corporate Trust in an attempt to maximize profits, or bribe a government official to have his interests better represented. If your version of Liberalism ever actually did come into play, where a free market utterly devoid of hypercorporatism sprang into being and no one person attempted to screw over another, I would support it. I would support it in the same way I would support utopian Marxist Communism, which also exists purely as a thought experiment and would never actually work.

[–]politikamusic 15ポイント16ポイント  (2子コメント)

Unencumbered capitalism with no social compact leads to tyranny.

[–]TheTrueLordHumungous 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

How so?

[–]politikamusic [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Well capitalist societies in their very nature value money and reward those that amass wealth, therefore money becomes power. And deregulating free markets completely leads to the concentration of wealth and therefore the concentration of power. The libertarian economic philsophy leads to corporate monopolies and ultimately an oligarchy.

[–]Titibu 8ポイント9ポイント  (0子コメント)

Corporations and people are already cutting corners with regulations,,,

[–]optimus_woo 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

Because trusting the market to protect the little guy is insanity.

[–]workpuppy 6ポイント7ポイント  (6子コメント)

The libertarian platform seems to boil down to "don't tax me bro", and I'm kinda sick of people who complain about taxes while happily partaking of the services they (barely) support.

[–]Notsure1980 -2ポイント-1ポイント  (5子コメント)

Then you've misunderstood libertarianism. Less taxation does not equal no taxation. It's easy to defeat a differing opinion when you change it something that is easily defeated. Attributing opinions to an opponent in a debate that they don't have, then defeating those made-up opinions, isn't a great way to debate.

[–]workpuppy 0ポイント1ポイント  (3子コメント)

So, I'm wrong, but you're not going to tell me how I'm wrong?

I've listened to libertarians, and this is the impression I have of your platform. Explain to me how it isn't accurate.

[–]Foobucket -4ポイント-3ポイント  (2子コメント)

Who said libertarianism was his platform? He just was pointing out how ridiculous your uninformed opinion was, nothing more.

[–]workpuppy 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

Oh look, another one!

Feel free to keep telling me I'm uninformed without informing me. Why don't you ask yourselves why even in an election year where both main party candidates are fucking loathed your guy has zero chance of winning?

[–]Foobucket -2ポイント-1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Hmm, considering we've had many landslide elections, I wouldn't say everyone is loathed every election. Look at Ronald Reagan, won every state but one. Was he loathed? I don't think so. It's part of money and exposure, and libertarians aren't able to catch up as a party, but many candidates have been very libertarian.

You should probably go make outlandish statements to someone who actually cares instead of throwing out ridiculous comments for attention hoping someone acknowledges you and listens to whatever lunacy you contribute. If you're not an American, please stop pretending to know public opinions on candidates. If you are an American, then do some homework and come back.

[–]AnthroNJ -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

even less taxation. Some people are okay with taxation, as long as it goes towards the right things.

[–]WorldsGreatestPoop 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

Because government institutions can improve people's lives when done right. It's fallacious rhetoric to say it's impossible for government to be effective. We need a mixed economy.

[–]smileedude 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

I vote libertarian because I think my country needs to move in a direction away from the strong authoritarianism it is now. But I believe if the libertarians ever got full power it would be an economic and humanitarian disaster. People can't look after themselves.

[–]Foobucket -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

Explain to me how people can't look after themselves, but somehow a massive conglomerate with no need to stay in business (tax dollars are free to take) full of the very same people who are incapable of protecting themselves are somehow capable as a group to babysit the population? It's like saying that a group of toddlers is capable of driving a car if there are enough of them.

[–]SilentOneBravo 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Man should have reasonable constraints placed upon him, as to reprimand and stop him from treating others as a wolf treats a sheep.

(yay 3 years of poli sci)

[–]MountainsAndTrees 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

Because when you let people do whatever they want, especially in business, a few unscrupulous sociopaths will dominate and abuse the rest of the population. It's hard enough to prevent this from happening when you actually try, and libertarians just want these people to have free reign.

Also, healthcare / education / infrastructure / etc is only affordable when it's publicly funded. The free market drives these areas to be profit machines, instead of services for the people as they need to be.

[–]drizztmainsword 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

Because capitalism has proven itself generally incapable of being a forward-moving force in society when left to its own devices. It makes rich people richer and exploits those that fall below the cutoff.

In the US, we're approaching a point where the jobs that employ huge percentages of the population – especially transportation and shipping – are going to be quickly fulfilled by more robust and safer technology. The big talk right now is "jobs." People don't want a job, they want a comfortable life. A "job" has just been the societal construct that provides that life. What happens when there is no work that can be done by a person with limited potential for education? What do you do with people that have no skills that meaningfully contribute to the economy?

This economic future is coupled with the unprecedented environmental issues that face us. There are too many people and not enough food, water, and energy for all of them. Somebody needs to play the long game on these factors, and Capitalism in its current form seems to have trouble looking three quarters into the future.

[–]erisdottir 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Because tragedy of the commons, really.

[–]Brainlessbart 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

Because every libertarian I've met has been a cunt.

[–]imbecile 1ポイント2ポイント  (3子コメント)

There once was a time when there was no government and no laws. Those times are called prehistory, life expectancy was 20 years and even just covering 10 miles of ground in a day was a life threatening undertaking.

The result of this free state of affairs with no rules were the hereditary god king monarchies based on slave labour that started human history and dominated it for millennia and the aftermath of which is still not fully overcome.

[–]Foobucket -2ポイント-1ポイント  (2子コメント)

That's all due to lack of technology, it has literally nothing to do with government. Almost every innovation throughout mankind has been done by profit-seeking innovators, almost never by any government institution. The government is so bad at getting things done, that they contract out almost all of their work to real companies who can manage it.

[–]imbecile 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Almost every innovation throughout mankind has been done by profit-seeking innovators, almost never by any government institution.

Bullshit. Writing was invented by governments, because of the large scale adminsitrative needs. Irrigation agriculture was invented by governments. Money was invented by governments. Architecture was invented by governments. Military and all military technology was invented by governments. Education was invented by governments. Roads were invented by governments. Computers and the internet were invented by governments.

Virtually every single thing that makes modern society possible was invented by governments.

[–]rumbleinthegrundle [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Oh yeah, all those profit-seeking innovators that put a man on the moon.

[–]ImLeBatman 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

It's unforceable. Who will enforce the equality? Only the government can.

[–]Priamosish [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Libertarianism didn't work in the 19th century and it won't work in the 21st one.

[–]picksandchooses [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Just like you need a police force to keep poor people from sticking up the liquor store, you need an EPA to keep businesses from dumping shit in the river and killing all the fish. Additionally, you need a progressive tax system to prevent oligarchy and another era of robber barons, you need careful and effective regulation of financial institutions to prevent white collar robbery….

I am not in a dream world. I want rational but strong governmental restrictions to enforce a more ordered society. It's needed. Over time wealth and power concentrate to the wealthy and powerful. It would be a fine system as one of the overlords but your philosophy of absolute minimal intervention is guaranteed to lead to a decline in the quality of life for the average person, not an improvement.

You're dreaming. It doesn't work in the real world.

[–]boltfromtheblue98 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

While in theory it makes sense, government intervention is necessary, and programs like welfare, food stamps, and Social Security help many more people that couldn't provide for themselves

[–]AnthroNJ 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Cause the idea of the party seems to me to boil down to "let everyone do whatever they want, including corporations. Let everyone carry full auto assault weapons, and don't tax me thus gutting social programs, so the poor are left to die. To me it seems like a political party with the ideas of child.

[–]stagehog81 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Why do we disagree about what?

[–]rumbleinthegrundle 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Because all the functions of government that libertarians oppose have historically proven to create more robust, prosperous economies and happier, healthier nations.

[–]LifeWin -2ポイント-1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Iiii....never really learned what Libertarian-ism is.

I assume it's dumb, because the news always makes libertarians look like whacky kooks.

[–]HelloOperator3 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

It's about free markets and how regulations are evil basically

[–]jim_okc -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

To borrow from physical sciences, their ideal government is an unstable configuration.

Case in point, libertarian ideology calls for open borders. Open borders leads to massive third world immigration leads to no more libertarianism as the new arrivals demand welfare programs. Libertarian policies result in fewer libertarians and more non-libertarians. That being the case, it's a non-starter.

Politics is downstream from culture. Plant a government a cultural soil that's inhospitible to it and it will wither and die and a different type of plant will take its place. Government comes from the bottom up, not the top down. You could give Afghanistan or Somalia the US Constitution and they're not going to suddenly be an advancing modern republics.

If we magically had a libertarian government tomorrow, without changing anything else, over time it would revert back to whatever grows in our cultural soil as surely as a cornfield goes back to weeds. Worse, the experiment would probably leave the soil less hospitable to small government plants than we started.

I want the smallest government that can thrive in our soil. Libertarianism isn't it.

This should all really be pretty intuitive to libertarians. The logical conclusion of libertarianism is anarchism. Government shouldn't exist at all. Why are you a libertarian and not an anarchist? That's why I'm not a libertarian.

[–]Labargoth -5ポイント-4ポイント  (5子コメント)

Capitalism is the problem and not corruption or corporatism. Libertarians and liberals are too blind to see that.

[–]Silent_Samp 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

This comment is so confusing

[–]RevRaven 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

So you're a conservative? What alternative to capitalism do you see?

[–]workpuppy 4ポイント5ポイント  (1子コメント)

Ignore him. "Anti-capitalist conservative" is like "anti-theist Christian".

[–]trans-atlantyk -2ポイント-1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I just don't see what alternative would replace the system. Cronyism and corporate welfare are obviously giant flaws in the system but a centrally planned economic model has not thrived anywhere.

[–]Foobucket -2ポイント-1ポイント  (0子コメント)

It's sad to see that many of these responses are referring to corporatism, not capitalism. The US has never had true capitalism free of lobbies and backdoor deals, so don't base arguments on premises that have never existed.

Libertarians don't believe in no regulation or no taxation, they believe in less taxation and less regulation, there's a difference. To see people come here and just draw extremes with no backing, logic, or evidence is disappointing and ruins any real education that could come from the discussion.

Also, saying things like "libertarians are idiots" and "every libertarian I know was a douche" are not good reasons to oppose the philosophy, you actually need, well you know, real arguments against it.

[–]ShallDo -3ポイント-2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Because of people like you asking these questions