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Ethereum, a good cryptocurrency to invest in?Discussion (self.investing)
NegativeKarmaSniifer が 15時間前 投稿
There have been talks about the potential boom in bitcoin (and I assume all cryptocurrencies in general). Is Ethereum a good currency to invest in? Is there any other better alternatives?
[–]deckerparkes 33ポイント34ポイント35ポイント 9時間前 (67子コメント)
What's so special about ethereum? ELI5?
[–]jaydoors 49ポイント50ポイント51ポイント 8時間前 (44子コメント)
Bitcoin is essentially an immutable ledger, or simple spreadsheet. It's public, and shared across thousands of computers. And it's completely unfeasible to edit or corrupt any entries. That, amazingly enough, is enough to allow you to build a currency and payment system - basically because you can keep track of amounts without any central authority.
Ethereum is basically the same, except rather than a spreadsheet it's a whole computer. The blockchain can run code. So it's sometimes called the 'world computer' - it's always on, it's completely trustworthy, and it's likely going to be there forever. That has all kinds of (imo) mindblowing implications.
[–]HodlDwon 11ポイント12ポイント13ポイント 5時間前 (1子コメント)
Actually Bitcoin is more like an Excel spreadsheet with only built-functions provided by Microsoft (not turing complete). While Ethereum is like Excel with VBA scripting enabled! ;-)
[–]jaydoors 2ポイント3ポイント4ポイント 5時間前 (0子コメント)
Much better!
[–]rocketbunny77 7ポイント8ポイント9ポイント 8時間前 (21子コメント)
Any examples of the mind blowing applications? Like super computer type work?
[–]hblask 20ポイント21ポイント22ポイント 7時間前* (15子コメント)
That is the wrong direction to look; it is not a powerful computer at all, in fact, it is more like an early smartphone. It is useful for the same reasons bitcoin is: trustless transactions that can never be turned off or altered.
A real world application that is already running is a solar power exchange. A neighborhood in Brooklyn has their solar panels connected to Ethereum, and they can instantly buy or sell tiny amounts of energy from or to each other with no middleman. The power company is not involved at all.
SlockIt is a company that is creating IoT devices, where you can lock or unlock anything via Ethereum. This is one of those ideas whose full usefulness will be obvious in retrospect, but just seems like a cool idea right now. An obvious use case is autonomous delivery vehicles that can only be unlocked by the intended recipient's smartphone.
Other likely early adopters include financial instruments. By all accounts the current settlement systems are a disaster, it can take days to finalize large transactions, and many people say the stock market works on a lot of good will and hand-waving. Ethereum could solve all that, with 15-second block times. Look into the R3 Consortium, it is most of the major banks doing research into blockchain and Ethereum technology.
In the long-term, the Internet Of Things seems a likely path. One idea I'm really excited about is the idea of self-owned, self-driving cars. Think of it as Uber without owners. The cars know when they need to be charged, when they need repairs and how much to charge in order to build up a fund to replace themselves when the time comes. Riders pay just actual costs, no money to drivers, no money to corporate owners.
Other ideas being considered: proof of identity, property ownership, online voting. I think Ethereum is one of those things that once it takes root we will wonder how we lived without it, like a garage door opener or TV remote.
None of that is to say it is a good investment. You have to decide that yourself. It is possible it will succeed at all those things beyond the founders' wildest dreams, and the price could still drop, because who knows what a completely new thing with no historical pricing model is worth? My gut says it still has a lot upside, and very little downside, but please do your own research.
[–]hatter6822 7ポイント8ポイント9ポイント 6時間前* (13子コメント)
Just to be clear, the Ethereum Virtual Machine isn't that powerful/fast now but when the system moves over to Proof of Stake this will change drastically. If any one is interested:
Proof of Work implies the inefficient conversion of electricity into heat, Ether and network stability, and we would quite like to not warm the atmosphere with our software more than is absolutely necessary. Short of buying carbon offsets for every unit of Ether mined (is that such a bad idea?), we need an algorithmic fix: the infamous Proof of Stake. Switching the network from Proof of Work to Proof of Stake is going to require a substantial switch, a transition process potentially much like the one between Frontier and Homestead. Similar rollback measures may be required, although in all probability more sophisticated mechanisms will be deployed (e.g. running both mechanisms together, with Proof of Work dominant, and flagging any cases where Proof of Stake gives a different output.) This seems a long way out, but it’s not as far away as all that: the work is ongoing. Proof of Work is a brutal waste of computing power – like democracy, the worst system except all the others (voluntarism etc. have yet to be tried at scale). Freed from that constraint, the network should be faster, more efficient, easier for newcomers to get into, and more resistant to cartelization of mining capacity etc. This is probably going to be almost as big a step forwards as putting smart contracts into a block chain in the first place, by the time all is said and done. It is a ways out. It will be worth it. Source
Proof of Work implies the inefficient conversion of electricity into heat, Ether and network stability, and we would quite like to not warm the atmosphere with our software more than is absolutely necessary. Short of buying carbon offsets for every unit of Ether mined (is that such a bad idea?), we need an algorithmic fix: the infamous Proof of Stake.
Switching the network from Proof of Work to Proof of Stake is going to require a substantial switch, a transition process potentially much like the one between Frontier and Homestead. Similar rollback measures may be required, although in all probability more sophisticated mechanisms will be deployed (e.g. running both mechanisms together, with Proof of Work dominant, and flagging any cases where Proof of Stake gives a different output.)
This seems a long way out, but it’s not as far away as all that: the work is ongoing.
Proof of Work is a brutal waste of computing power – like democracy, the worst system except all the others (voluntarism etc. have yet to be tried at scale). Freed from that constraint, the network should be faster, more efficient, easier for newcomers to get into, and more resistant to cartelization of mining capacity etc. This is probably going to be almost as big a step forwards as putting smart contracts into a block chain in the first place, by the time all is said and done. It is a ways out. It will be worth it.
Source
[–]hblask 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 5時間前 (2子コメント)
That doesn't make the Ethereum virtual machine more powerful, just less wasteful. It still will not be practical for massive computational problems. Caveat: I'm not an expert, but I've read as much as I can.
[–]hatter6822 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 4時間前* (0子コメント)
It will be many times faster and could very well help with larger computational problems. This post on stack exchange puts it nicely.
Lower gas prices and block gas limits that trend higher, are what allow for more computation to be performed on the EVM. The trend for both is relatively flat, because every full node has to perform every computation currently. As an open platform, where the reliability of the network depends on the number of nodes, it is desirable where anyone can set up a node and participate. Too many computations on the EVM would translate to long delays before a node is synchronized with the blockchain, higher CPU costs, and likely higher storage costs -- these would all decrease the number of full nodes participating. As scalability improvements (such as sharding) and solutions are implemented and refined, it will help the situation where more computation can be performed on the EVM in aggregate, without significant burdens on nodes and compromising security. Block gas limits and gas prices may trend to allow contracts to perform more computations at lower costs. Improving scalability is an integral part of not just a plan, but ongoing Serenity work, as is Proof-of-Stake with Casper.
Lower gas prices and block gas limits that trend higher, are what allow for more computation to be performed on the EVM. The trend for both is relatively flat, because every full node has to perform every computation currently. As an open platform, where the reliability of the network depends on the number of nodes, it is desirable where anyone can set up a node and participate. Too many computations on the EVM would translate to long delays before a node is synchronized with the blockchain, higher CPU costs, and likely higher storage costs -- these would all decrease the number of full nodes participating.
As scalability improvements (such as sharding) and solutions are implemented and refined, it will help the situation where more computation can be performed on the EVM in aggregate, without significant burdens on nodes and compromising security. Block gas limits and gas prices may trend to allow contracts to perform more computations at lower costs. Improving scalability is an integral part of not just a plan, but ongoing Serenity work, as is Proof-of-Stake with Casper.
[–]Savage_X 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 1時間前 (0子コメント)
You are correct, for an individual contract, it is not going to compare in computing power to a centralized server or cloud computing platform.
While it has the capabilities to run a huge variety of use cases, its only going to be feasible for select use cases that need the decentralization and trustless security. Those use cases are still important however.
[–]Savage_X -1ポイント0ポイント1ポイント 1時間前 (0子コメント)
Even after a switch to PoS, it is still just a VM on a server where all the servers have to run the code to fit in a block. This stage will not scale beyond how fast a server can run the smart contracts.
Sharding will help scale beyond that to make it so that not all the transactions will have to be run on all the nodes, but that is still a ways off. And that still isn't going to be a like a super computer or anything - a single contract will still basically have the same limitations, we will just be able to run more in parallel.
[–]Onetallnerd -2ポイント-1ポイント0ポイント 3時間前* (8子コメント)
PoS is untested in the real world. I wouldn't risk a billion dollars seeing if it happens to work or not.
[–]sandakersmann 4ポイント5ポイント6ポイント 2時間前 (6子コメント)
It has been working for four years in Peercoin.
[–]ConradJohnson 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 1時間前 (0子コメント)
PoS
Proof of Concept is running now. Go take a look.
[–]rocketbunny77 4ポイント5ポイント6ポイント 4時間前 (0子コメント)
Holy shit. Okay I'm starting to understand. Thanks!
[–]jaydoors 15ポイント16ポイント17ポイント 6時間前* (3子コメント)
For me the best general example is "decentralized autonomous organisations" (DAOs). Basically you can write code that will carry out many / all of the functions of a company. And then set it loose on the blockchain. It will do whatever the code says. This is all early days, but basically if you write something which provides a service people want, then they pay to use it, and the code will pay off suppliers (which might be other DAOs), do its accounting etc and send the inventor the profit.
You can quite easily have sophisticated ownership, with fundraising for business ideas, and shareholders voting on how to run the company - automatically receiving dividends. This is not just pie in the sky - the first big of example of this exists. It raised >$150m which is now sitting in an account on the ethereum blockchain and is controlled entirely by code. The funds get used according to voting by the investors - but there is no single human or organisation which can control it. Nobody that could wind it up, or make anything happen - unless is is consistent with the code. Check it out: https://daohub.org
Personally I think this particular example is fairly likely to get messy. It is completely new territory here, and who knows what weird and wonderful new problems will arise. But the potential.. ..well, as I say, mindblowing I think.
[–]rocketbunny77 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 4時間前 (2子コメント)
Thanks for the comprehensive reply. It's hard for me to wrap my head around these concepts but that helped quite a bit
[–]jaydoors 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 3時間前 (1子コメント)
A simpler example: there is a pyramid scheme in the ethereum blockchain. You send money to an address, which goes up the pyramid to people that joined before you. Then if anyone joins later, some of their entry money goes to you.
Obviously this doesn't serve any useful purpose, except as an example (it really is a pyramid scheme, and there will be losers!). But it shows how these "contracts" (basically programs on the blockchain) can exist and operate completely autonomously.
[–]rocketbunny77 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 1時間前 (0子コメント)
That's a good example to help understand. I can see how ethereum would take the pain out of splitting payments received automatically between different parties as well.
That was the first use case I could think of where it might help with things I'm doing.
[–]mcgravier 8ポイント9ポイント10ポイント 7時間前 (0子コメント)
Potentially? Derivatives autoexecuted when proper circumstances are met. Decentralised, unhackable and uncheatable exchange between ETH and ETH based IOUs/tokens ect. Or Ogame/Travian-like real time game that has no glitches. Ever
[–]sausalitoturkeyface 7ポイント8ポイント9ポイント 8時間前 (16子コメント)
dumb question - is it figuratively a whole computer or literally a whole computer?
[–]Savage_X 20ポイント21ポイント22ポイント 8時間前* (8子コメント)
A virtual machine is a better description. The application code is written on the blockchain and can then be executed by the network.
[–]MistaHiggins 3ポイント4ポイント5ポイント 5時間前 (7子コメント)
I'm sure there are protections, but enabling a cryptocurrency network the ability to execute code sounds insanely dangerous.
[–]Savage_X 5ポイント6ポイント7ポイント 4時間前 (0子コメント)
Well, Bitcoin allows some basic scripting on their blockchain as well. This isn't exactly a new idea. Ethereum goes all the way though and is a "turing complete" language so you can basically program anything. There are of course limitations - for instance, you can only do a very limited amount of processing to keep the executions fast. The code can definitely make transactions though - that is kind of the entire point. You'll want to do a lot of testing to make sure there are no bugs :)
[–]suchphil 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 5時間前 (2子コメント)
That's why it runs in a VM.
[–]MistaHiggins 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 5時間前 (1子コメント)
I meant more along the lines of executing unauthorized transactions.
[–]HodlDwon 2ポイント3ポイント4ポイント 4時間前 (0子コメント)
The main part that makes a cryptocurrency have anything at all to do with cryptography... is signing. Transaction do not happen unless you sign them to prove you have the secret key that gives you the permission to sign it.
It's like everyone on the network has a Guest account to the same computer. No one has Admin access and no one can do anything to anyone else's account. But all the Accounts can voluntarily communicate with each other.
[–]hblask 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 5時間前 (2子コメント)
In what way?
[–]MistaHiggins 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 5時間前 (1子コメント)
Like I said, I'm sure there are protections, but allowing a cryptocurrency network to execute code seems like a way of executing unauthorized transactions.
[–]dezrambson 2ポイント3ポイント4ポイント 4時間前 (0子コメント)
Example?
[–]jaydoors 5ポイント6ポイント7ポイント 7時間前 (0子コメント)
It depends what you mean by computer.. If you mean the abstract definition, then yes it is literally a whole computer (it provides for "Turing complete" computation).
As someone else says, it provides a "virtual machine" which can run programs.
[–]shouldbdan 3ポイント4ポイント5ポイント 8時間前* (5子コメント)
It might depend what you think of as a "whole computer". It can't run a copy of OSX and you can't play Angry Birds on it. And it's not a single, physical, owned rectangular box.
It's a VM that runs on thousands of computers around the world. And it's capable of carrying out all of the fundamental computations required to be "Turing complete". It can theoretically do everything any other computer can do, but it has a really, really slow virtual processor, so you won't be playing the latest 3D virtual reality games on it.
[–]SrPeixinho 4ポイント5ポイント6ポイント 6時間前 (1子コメント)
Yep. Notice that, while it is indeed a worldwide computer, it is a very inefficient one. You're not running a 3D game engine on it. In fact, you can only put on it the minimal amount of computation for what you want to do, otherwise it becomes too expensive. Nether less, many things don't need a lot of computing power. Business rules, for example. With Ethereum, different parties that don't trust each other can run computer programs that both can verify and neither can alter; i.e., what we call smart contracts. This is one of the places where it shines and Bitcoin isn't so good.
I personally think Ethereum, or something alike, will have a colossal impact on society. I'm only not sure Ethereum is the final answer because, like in any other uncharted field, new insights can change our perspective. But that something like Ethereum will make it, I'm sure.
[–]fullmatches 2ポイント3ポイント4ポイント 3時間前 (0子コメント)
This is what's so great about it being open source. People can (and have already) taken Ethereum and built other things out of either part or all of it. Then over time good ideas from other projects can be fed back into Ethereum as well. All of this happening in the open source world is expediting technological innovation and it's a beautiful thing.
[–]Nonethewiserer 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 7時間前 (2子コメント)
So it could manipulate all the other VM's?
[–]handsomechandler 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 5時間前 (0子コメント)
It is all the VMs
[–]jokl66 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 6分前 (0子コメント)
Every full Ethereum node contains a complete VM. Once a program is entered into the blockchain, it is executed on every single node/VM.
And that is the whole point of the blockchain! You do not need to trust one single computer. Instead the complete state of the blockchain is recorded on every node, meaning that as long as there is one node alive anywhere in the world, the blockchain is complete.
To be very specific: the program that is DAO executes on both my home and work PCs, as well as on the other approximately 6000 computers around the world (check out http://ethernodes.org/network/1 for the map of the network). And it is exactly the same program, the outputs of the program are exactly the same, no matter the computer on which it runs.
[–]flannelbananna 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 6時間前 (2子コメント)
Do they have a whitepaper i could read or is it still just based off of the OG blockchain one?
[–]jaydoors 4ポイント5ポイント6ポイント 6時間前 (0子コメント)
Here you go.
Also there is a site and a subreddit.
[–]fullmatches 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 3時間前 (0子コメント)
It is based (very directly and openly) off of ideas from Bitcoin and other places but isn't based off Bitcoin code.
[–]CodyReichert 9ポイント10ポイント11ポイント 6時間前 (1子コメント)
If anyone is looking for the ELI-PHD version, the Ethereum white-paper is a very interesting read: https://github.com/ethereum/wiki/wiki/White-Paper
Another great read if you like to get into details is this (warning at times very technical) design rationale document. Really demonstrates how thoughtful and deliberate the reasoning for a lot of the way Ethereum works is.
https://github.com/ethereum/wiki/wiki/Design-Rationale
[–]AroundTheBlock_ 2ポイント3ポイント4ポイント 5時間前 (2子コメント)
https://medium.com/@AroundTheBlock_/a-current-list-of-use-cases-for-ethereum-b8caa5807553#.tr0npm9an
[–]sandakersmann 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 2時間前 (1子コメント)
Definitely a good read :)
[–]AroundTheBlock_ 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 1時間前 (0子コメント)
Thanks. I worked real hard on that blog. 17000 views and counting!
[–]Dorian7 2ポイント3ポイント4ポイント 1時間前* (0子コメント)
BTC is about decentralizing money. ETH is decentralizing everything.
BTC has a market cap of 6 billion USD, ETH has reached 1 billion. While BTC never really has reached full acceptance as payment service or currency its price has soared nevertheless. ETH on the other side has a great potential to be much more then a currency, because it serves a platform and ecosystem for decentralized applications, smart contracts, which can be disrupting unicorn killers by coming into the market with a cheaper price for the same service. One of them could be the DAO+Slockit who could be new Uber or AirBnB on the Ethereum network.
In the whole sea of so called crypto currencies, there are at the moment perhaps just 2 or 3 with a bright future and potential. ETH is one of them, Monero (XMR) the anonymous digital cash is the second because it will fill a huge niche and its price is still low.
[–]jonhuang 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 5時間前 (3子コメント)
Generally speaking, ETH allows for itself to be automatically transferred via computer programs ("smart contracts"). For example, you can say to your friend, "hey I'll bet you 10 ETH bucks that the temperature tomorrow is over 90 degrees," code a program that checks the NOAA data feed tomorrow, and then automatically sends or doesn't sent the money over, no takebacks.
This is undeniably pretty cool. But I also think it's not very useful.
First, because the program inputs are still not trustworthy. In the real world, few contracts execute off solely external data feeds. And even fewer of those feeds are so trustworthy that you'd want it automated.
Second, because the real world is messy. Even a simple contract like "if I damage my apartment my landlord can keep a fair amount of the deposit" has so many grey areas that require human judgement to execute.
Like, compare ETH running a program vs a program running on a centralized, traditional computer. In the first one you don't need to worry about someone not running the program, or replacing the program with a different one. These aren't really things I'm worried about? Already need to trust the other party and/or the legal system anyway.
(In the second one, it's cheaper, faster, and easier to do. )
I hold no cryptocurrencies.
[–]ItsAConspiracy 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 1時間前 (2子コメント)
Some applications that don't require external data feeds: Kickstarter-style crowdfunding, auctions, options, gambling, various anti-theft schemes, voting, several methods for cheap off-chain micropayments, currency ledgers, decentralized currency exchange.
[–]jonhuang 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 1時間前 (1子コメント)
auctions
I'm going to cherry pick one of these to ask some questions. I want to be clear, I totally agree it's a very cool thing for some of these examples, like crowdfunding or gambling--basically anything that happens entirely inside the ETH world.
But let's say I want to auction off a horse. I can set up an auction on ETH that guarantees that people can submit bids and that the highest bid will be transmitted to me. But ETH can't guarantee that I deliver a healthy horse to the buyer, can it? Maybe you can be clever and add a button for the buyer: "press this button if no horse was delivered and get a full refund." But then ETH can't guarantee that that the button isn't pushed regardless of horse delivery. It seems like at that point you have to rely on social safeguards: law, contracts, lawyers, known identities, suing in court. What's the gain here?
[–]ItsAConspiracy 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 55分前* (0子コメント)
Absolutely true. But you could say the same about eBay, or Kickstarter. Neither platform guarantees that sellers will deliver.
I like Ethereum because I'm a software developer, and it's amazing to me that if I want to build something like Kickstarter, all I have to do is write a couple pages of blockchain script plus some html/javascript for the GUI, publish it to a peer-to-peer network, and it'll run by itself with no downtime and move money around. I don't have to pay for infrastructure, admin servers, or ask anyone's permission.
But regarding social safeguards, there are some options. One is reputation systems, like we see on eBay and Amazon. Another is 2-of-3 multisig: buyer deposits funds and they are forwarded/refunded if any two of three people agree, where the people are buyer, seller, and an arbitrator. If there's no dispute, the arbitrator doesn't have to get involved at all.
[–]rexfordays 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 2時間前 (0子コメント)
This is a bit beyond a five year old but worthwhile for anyone interested in more due diligence.
[+]komphwasf3 スコアが基準値未満のコメント-11ポイント-10ポイント-9ポイント 7時間前 (10子コメント)
Bitcoins are based on the value of tulips. But ethereum is based on the value of wool. So there's no chance people will stop using it and cause you to lose all your investment
[–]hybridsole 8ポイント9ポイント10ポイント 7時間前 (2子コメント)
Except with bitcoins I can hire a freelance developer in Vietnam from the US and pay him instantly. Try doing that with tulips.
[–]Kooriki 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 6時間前 (1子コメント)
What can you buy with Ethereum currently? Do any vendors or atm/btms support it yet?
[–]fullmatches 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 3時間前 (0子コメント)
Some but not many. Development is focused on its usefulness as a platform rather than rushing to try to get people to accept it. This was tried with Bitcoin to some success but failed to make Bitcoin "go big". I expect people will accept Ether (the currency token name) in the future but there also will likely be zero or tiny fee decentralized exchanges so you could pay with whatever currency was accepted and have it autoconvert from your Ether seemlessly. People are also working on "stablecoins" meant to hold a certain price, or Digix which is trying to tokenize gold bars on the blockchain (similar to the book Cryptonomicon actually). If that works some people might be paying for day to day transactions with DGX (gold backed tokens).
The tech is so new that most of it is still in the "if we build it, they will come" phase. And since it's a totally open project, anyone can jump in and start building whatever they want with no barrier or cost of entry.
[–]asdoihfasdf9239 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 4時間前 (5子コメント)
As a bitcoin investor, for me the value derives from:
[–]twoambien -1ポイント0ポイント1ポイント 6時間前 (0子コメント)
Haters are based on the value of insecurity
[–]Surfaccountant 15ポイント16ポイント17ポイント 10時間前* (3子コメント)
Definitely research it. My generalized view is Ethereum will revolutionize ownership. Like the internet revolutionized data. This is very abstract but has profound implications.
[–]Indefinitely_not 7ポイント8ポイント9ポイント 9時間前* (0子コメント)
Since I won't be the only one who did not instantly understood what you were getting at, this article (somewhat) cleared it up for me: WSJ - BitBeat: Ethereum Opens Its ‘Frontier’ for Business.
Think of it this way: Bitcoin (and lets break with our usual style here and use the capital B in reference to the system) is a program designed specifically to support a currency system, bitcoin. Its key feature is the online ledger, the blockchain. Ethereum shares some technology, but its design goal isn’t just to support a currency, it is to support any kind of application that can make use of the blockchain technology. ... The blockchain, whether bitcoin’s, Ethereum’s or any other that may be developed, is an online, public ledger of transactions that can support a range of applications beyond managing a currency, anything from supply-chain management to “smart” contracts to even voting. Etherum is designed to be the backbone for all those, and any others that folks can think up. When everything is built and up and running, it should allow anybody with at least some coding skills to build products and apps, rather than just Silicon Valley-trained engineers.
Think of it this way: Bitcoin (and lets break with our usual style here and use the capital B in reference to the system) is a program designed specifically to support a currency system, bitcoin. Its key feature is the online ledger, the blockchain. Ethereum shares some technology, but its design goal isn’t just to support a currency, it is to support any kind of application that can make use of the blockchain technology.
...
The blockchain, whether bitcoin’s, Ethereum’s or any other that may be developed, is an online, public ledger of transactions that can support a range of applications beyond managing a currency, anything from supply-chain management to “smart” contracts to even voting. Etherum is designed to be the backbone for all those, and any others that folks can think up. When everything is built and up and running, it should allow anybody with at least some coding skills to build products and apps, rather than just Silicon Valley-trained engineers.
[–]zcc0nonA 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 58分前 (0子コメント)
Having been involved with cryptocurrencies for a few years now I am very curious why you think ether will do that?
[–]Bitcoinfriend -1ポイント0ポイント1ポイント 5時間前 (0子コメント)
revolutionize**
[–]WhySoS3rious 10ポイント11ポイント12ポイント 10時間前 (2子コメント)
https://medium.com/the-coinbase-blog/ethereum-is-the-forefront-of-digital-currency-5300298f6c75#.octnw1jvz
[–]frrrni 9ポイント10ポイント11ポイント 9時間前 (1子コメント)
Definitely a good read
[–]WhySoS3rious 7ポイント8ポイント9ポイント 9時間前 (0子コメント)
yep :) it was written by the Co-founder @Coinbase. (Previously trader @GoldmanSachs)
[–]Surfaccountant 7ポイント8ポイント9ポイント 10時間前 (0子コメント)
Banks are interested http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/r3-connects-11-banks-distributed-ledger-using-ethereum-microsoft-azure-1539044
[–]Indy_Pendant 11ポイント12ポイント13ポイント 6時間前 (52子コメント)
Disclaimer: I own several thousand dollars in various cryptocurrencies.
Buying into any of these for profit is not an investment, is a gamble at best, and a scam at worst. Bitcoin is by far the most trustful and stable, but has more than its fair share of scams and rip-offs and is notorious for its price swings.
There are a few points about Eth I don't trust: the valuation is based on holding price alone, as it's not a usable currency yet (so far, only BTC is even close to "widely accepted"). An estimated 75% of the currency was pre-mined, which means that there is a large motivation for pump-n-dump scams (like almost every other pre-mined coin); the more the price goes up, the more the original holders get rich. (By contrast, btc was not pre-mined at all, and was left to succeed or fail based on usability, but the creator's personal greed.) There's technically no currency cap (depends on future implementation, I think?), so it's an inflationary currency, and if you want one of those, why not usd? Again, by contrast, btc is currently hard-capped at approx 21m coins. Finally, there's been a huge Eth spam campaign on forum posts, PMs, and email that makes the whole currency reek of a scam-coin, regardless of any possible merits.
In short, I highly distrust Eth from both a technical and social perspective, and if you want to gamble on crypto, there are better options.
[–]lf11 5ポイント6ポイント7ポイント 5時間前 (32子コメント)
Finally, there's been a huge Eth spam campaign on forum posts, PMs, and email that makes the whole currency reek of a scam-coin, regardless of any possible merits.
This is the part that makes me shy away from Ethereum. Technically, the software is quite intriguing. But the fans? No thanks. I feel as though someone has written a natural-language bot to spam Ethereum. The pro-ethereum posts just in this thread alone reek of this. Same grammar, same boundless enthusiasm. It's weird.
[–]Indy_Pendant 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 5時間前 (22子コメント)
Most "discussion" about Eth in these posts are from people with long histories in the Eth sub. "Oh wow, I didn't know how cool and innovative Eth was! (Despite the fact I've been posting about and advertising it for months.)"
As I said, pre-mined plus organized spam campaigns, there's nothing about this particular crypto that I trust. I hold 7 different cryptos, but won't buy into this one.
[–]imaginarybacon 4ポイント5ポイント6ポイント 4時間前 (7子コメント)
Do you think Coinbase is either in on the paid shill scheme or duped by it? Or all the VC money flowing into ETH behind the scenes?
I'm as skeptical of the shills as anybody (see: LISK) but there's real momentum behind Ethereum from some of the most established forces in the crypto world. Filter out the noise and I believe that still matters.
[–]Kooriki 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 4時間前 (9子コメント)
Can I ask which 7? I have a couple grand of BTC and some leftovers of a few other altcoins.
[–]Indy_Pendant 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 4時間前 (8子コメント)
BTC, Litecoin, Doge, Monero, and a couple other random ones. I don't "believe" in any of them; none. Some I own (like doge) because I sold digital goods and some users wanted to pay in a particular crypto, others because I mined them using free cloud services when they were young. But please don't take these as endorsements for any of them.
[–]Kooriki 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 4時間前 (7子コメント)
You and I have very similar experiences. I bought and sold things with Doge, mined them locally and on Amazon AWS for a while. I had some Peercoin (Lost when an excahnge shut down) and some various garbage coins like fedora. I also don't 'believe' in any of them. Saying that I feel Bitcoin has some use via the grey/black market. It's also ALMOST useful as a tool for arbitage but I could never get it to be worth my time and the idea didnt scale well. (Purchase discounted goods via purse.io and resell on Ebay/Amazon).
[–]lf11 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 5時間前 (3子コメント)
Sometimes it seems as though a few of the pre-miners have employed a small army of strangely articulate 13-year-olds to spam us.
[–]Indy_Pendant 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 5時間前 (2子コメント)
Well, that's part of the untrustworthiness. Rather than to let the technology make-or-break on its own merits, the creators and receivers of the millions of premied Eth coins have a vested financial interest in seeing it succeed (even if, perhaps especially if, only temporarily), even if it's based on nothing more than advertising, smoke and mirrors, and spam. I'm not saying Eth IS nothing more than this, but it's not being given the chance to prove itself with all this emotional fluff artificially boosting not only the coin, but the value as well. Once that emotional fluff goes away, and the holders dump their technically-worthless (but emotionally-appealing) coins for a nice USD payday, what's left? Unproved and unused technology.
Contrary, Bitcoin (which has an equally toxic community, but for other reasons) didn't have those emotional boosts. The BTC creator walked away and was never heard from again, leaving the technology to live or die on its own merits. It's succeeding because people and businesses have found a use for it, and not because it's relying on the emotional appeal and success of ad campaigns to artificially drive up the value.
[–]fullmatches 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 2時間前 (3子コメント)
Ask me a question about it and I'll reply in any form of grammar you want and express my genuine enthusiasm. I believe in it long term and I don't go around pumping it. (If you check my history you'll see that I mostly discuss it on internally ethereum based reddits). I came here via this post being mentioned on an ethereum board so if that is pumping or spam or whatever I'm sorry but I assure you the enthusiasm is genuine and I'm not planning on selling my ether until I don't believe in it technologically or I need the money desperately. I really don't care if you or anyone else here buys any, but I do like to clear up misconceptions or FUD from anti-ethereum people.
[–]lf11 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 1時間前 (2子コメント)
Here's a question, why do I keep getting Ethernet spam PMs whenever I post in a bitcoin forum?
Another question: why do people think the artificial scarcity of Bitcoin is bad, then turn around and fail to see the artificial scarcity built into ethereum?
Why don't the darker sides of the internet accept ethereum?
Have the anonymity concerns with bitcoin been addressed?
What are the actual concerns with ethereum? What are the things that could cause it to fail?
[–]fullmatches 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 41分前 (1子コメント)
1) From fairly early on (not sure exactly when) when Ether was fairly low priced, there has been one or many spammers doing this shit. Originally I suspected they were actually trying to fuck Ethereum over because they were making it look so bad. I wish they would stop, founders and others have publicly asked them not to do it. Is there a chance it's secretly the founders and I've been tricked? I guess possibly but listening to Vitalik talk or reading his posts on reddit I just do NOT get that impression. They have much higher aims than a pump and dump. Amusingly I've seen a few people who said they came over to Ethereum to complain about the spammer, read about it, bought some, and then grudgingly thanked the piece of shit for spamming them (I cite this just as an amusing anecdote, I assure you I hate all spammers).
2) I actually haven't heard this argument much from people? I don't think the scarcity of Bitcoin is bad (I think it's a key reason it ever attained ANY value at all). I also think most Ether speculators are counting on scarcity in Ether, I personally hope for a scenario with low inflation which is outpaced by adoption. I do however think it's more programmatic scarcity rather than artificial. Maybe just because I think artificial gives a more negative connotation as being unnatural or something.
3) this I'm not sure of. As a guy who "knows a guy who knows a guy cough cough" who has used darknets. I've seen bitcoin and dash and litecoin used but never ether. Maybe because of newness? I really have no clear answer for this. I know someone tried to launch a crowdfund on ether for a darknet market, I don't want the bad press from it so I hope it did fizzle, I'd like ether to be used for whatever anyone wants to use it for, I just hope it gets big enough that illegal acts are scene as part of its use and not the main use (because it's frustrating to see mainstream press bash crypto as being only useful for eluding the law).
4) I don't know what you mean by this but I'll try to answer based on what you maybe meant. Bitcoin is sort of quasi-anonymous (you could buy it with cash and use it pretty anonymously) but everything you do is pretty damn traceable. Ethereum is pretty much the same way, it could provide anonymity but only in certain situations and only if one is very careful. I haven't pursued it much but if anonymity is the goal I'd assume something built from scratch for it like DASH might be better for that. If however you want Ethereum to be less anonymous, some projects being worked on are focusing on how to attach a real life identity to the blockchain. I think this could maybe be done in a partly centralized way and then fed into the blockchain in the short term (company verifies id documents and the ownership of an ethereum account and vouches for the ownership of both of those things). There are definitely projects that are trying to decentralized identity on the blockchain but I honestly have no idea what mechanisms they are trying to use.
5) POS not working as hoped is my probably biggest fear. Ethereum could stay with POW if POS doesn't fly in tests, but the expansion of Ethereum to be a useful global and functionally scalable version of itself seems to require POS to work. If Ethereum doesn't scale than it isn't really going to be better than Bitcoin at much and it'll likely fizzle and the best ideas will be pulled into something else. This is actually quite a decent possibility recently, that Ethereum's ideas are great but either can't be executed for tech reasons or other external factors cause some other solution to come to the forefront. As a speculator this would disappoint me but I'm incredibly interested in decentralization as a way to reduce corporate and government power (I'm a democratic socialist). So really if some other tech accomplishes these goals I'll be thrilled and just hope I hear about it to speculate on if that's possible.
Some other crypto might just win-- Bitcoin (if they sort out governance issues their brand name plus functional side chains could definitely beat ethereum), Lisk (seems to me to be too scammy and pump/dump but I haven't personally researched), Maidsafe (not blockchain based and if it worked it could be a better avenue to a lot of blockchain goals). There are also many private blockchains being worked on by various organizations, it's quite possible that all this innovation just filters into closed ecosystems used by the banks and Ethereum withers on the vine.
Outright technical failure-- seems less likely every day but of COURSE this is a risk of any crypto and Ethereum's complexity is of course a risk here. I do believe in the team and what I am savvy enough to understand makes me not view this as a risk I'm overly concerned with.
Governmental intervention- I still don't think any crypto could survive and all out assault via legal means by a major government such as the US. If they shutdown the USD exchanges crypto would crash hard. This was a risk I was very worried about when it was only Bitcoin, but now that Gemini exchange for instance has legal permission to trade Ether in NYC (the state with the most stringent regulations in this area) I think this risk is minimal. I do think a country like China might be more likely to try to ban it (but again I think they already would have), or a failing state trying to keep their currency up, but I don't think that would be enough to kill the ecosystem.
Lack of interest-- Ethereum is in the "if we build it, they will come" phase. Trying to build as much useful product as possible and as open an ecosystem as possible so that someday people will use many things on ethereum without even knowing it. However if none of these take off, again ethereum could wither on the vine or be replaced by something newer and fresher. I'd get scared if development looked to be stagnating (instead it is currently rapidly expanding).
Bubble pop-- Ethereum has increased HUGELY in a short time. Assuming this can't be a bubble would be crazy. If I were advising a friend I'd say the risk of missing out beats the risk of a bubble pop currently, but a bubble pop is not remotely impossible. There are now many avenues to trade Ether for other cryptos or fiats so the price can go up or down easily and quickly.
Ethereum Foundation risk-- Vitalik is awesome (I really do think so, and he seems to be a rare intellect). That could change, he could lose interest (very unlikely), or die, or whatever. Eventually that impact might be small if Ethereum was big enough. I don't think it currently could survive such an event without a massive drop in price (I do think it could recover, but it would almost certainly be a huge drop). Also the community is currently still fairly small, agreeable to the broad strokes of the plans, and hasn't gone through many fundamental crises. Its easy to say things are being well run when things aren't going wrong. I can't predict at all whether it could whether a storm at this point (again I think it could in the future, but the risk now is that it's too small/fragile for a big crisis).
I'm sure I could come up with more risks (they are very numerous!) I've suggested to friends that they speculate a little on ether because I think the risk/reward ratio on it is incredibly favorable. I always tell them first in capital letters that they risk losing every single cent they invest and they should view that money as "gone" for psychological reasons if they do put any in. However the risk of loss maxes out at 100% (unless you're crazy and use margin, which... just don't.) The gains if it takes off are orders of magnitude higher than that so I think as a risk/reward it's very favorable. I view it as a longshot at having a piece of what could be a fundamental part of the internet and society as a whole. The openness of the system means use cases no one has dreamed of are possible and people can build them without even consulting anyone, just start making it.
disclaimer-- I stand to benefit handsomely if it takes off because I was a crowdsale participant. I invested a tiny amount of money that is now (to me) quite a lot and I haven't sold any. At the same time I invested in a few real companies on the stock market and they've done well but it is absolutely dwarfed by the ether success so I am FAR from unbiased. I'd be happy to answer more questions and seriously if you don't believe in it DO NOT INVEST or if you do make it tiny. Or invest in whatever the most technologically ambitious new project coming around the corner is since the gains you might get from that might now beat what Ether can do now that it's over a billion. I do really, really believe that Ether isn't a scamcoin, that the developers are aiming to make it a fundamental part of the structure of the future of finance and technology, and that it isn't an impossible goal.
[–]fullmatches 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 39分前 (0子コメント)
Jesus I already wrote too much but one major point-- This is all too much effort for a pump and dump. People can and have made millions on pump and dumps that are just altclones or whatever (Lisk appears to be an ethereum clone with javascript tacked on for instance). Ethereum and the continued development of it is just way too real and way too much work for a pump and dump by the founders. Many of the founders have spun off into companies building in and around the ecosystem. I believe they are in this for the long haul and all evidence points that way.
[–]ItsAConspiracy 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 1時間前 (1子コメント)
I got some of those spams. Every one was from a minutes-old account with a similar random-looking name. I think it was one guy with a script.
The Ethereum subreddits posted stickies asking the spammer to stop and asking people to hit the "report" button, the founder of Ethereum tweeted for him to stop, but the only people with the power to make someone stop PM spamming are employees of reddit.
[–]lf11 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 5分前 (0子コメント)
I gotcha. It sure turned me off of the whole technology at the time, and I still have a foul taste over it.
[–]Kooriki 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 5時間前 (2子コメント)
I feel as though someone has written a natural-language bot to spam Ethereum.
Maybe that's the purpose of the always-on computer/crypto powered company. It's the Kanye West of crypto-currency: Paid to talk about itself.
[–]lf11 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 5時間前 (1子コメント)
Hey if it can earn enough to buy its own Amazon cloud servers then it could almost maybe become a self-sufficient entity.
[–]Kooriki 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 5時間前 (0子コメント)
Haha, if it evolves to the point it can write its own support tickets, Im sold.
[–]Kooriki 4ポイント5ポイント6ポイント 5時間前 (4子コメント)
Thank you for bringing some sense into the discussion, I was pushed to the bottom in this thread when I tried to highlight some history with alt-coins. I'm very surprised to the significant premine isn't putting off more people. Back in my day (2 years ago) that was the defining mark of a scamcoin. The other big red-flag for me currently is the high-price with a lack of stores or ATM/BTM's dealing with Ether just yet.
Having been in a number of cryptocoin forums I see the same pattern of "Downvote and berate the non-believers" and "OUR coin is the true coin!" rhetoric. Others are free to invest/gamble as they see fit, but I'm wary of this one.
[–]Dabauhs 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 5時間前 (3子コメント)
It was incorrect to call it a premine. He's including the original amount invested by the community to fund the development team. Everyone had an opportunity to invest and receive a wallet that would at a later time be redeemable for ether. At the time, it was just an idea, a gamble, fortunately one that has seemingly paid off.
[–]Kooriki 2ポイント3ポイント4ポイント 5時間前 (2子コメント)
He's including the original amount invested by the community to fund the development team.
How is this not literally a pre-mine? Create a bunch of coins in the genesis block, sell it to investors, and give the profits fund the developers? Is your argument that it's not a premine because people could buy some of the premine coins early? Just because the developers collect the cash up front vs holding and hoping for appreciation and a price boost doesn't make it any less of a premine.
[–]Dabauhs 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 5時間前 (1子コメント)
The developers of the currency didn't mine the coin prior to it being available to the public. (the definition of premine BTW). However Satoshi, the inventor of bitcoin did mine over a million bitcoin prior to it being well known. It is disingenuous to hold bitcoin up as not being a premine, when what the Ethereum project did was fund development with an initial public offering. An ipo is not a premine, it's more of a futures contract.
[–]Kooriki 2ポイント3ポイント4ポイント 4時間前 (0子コメント)
It is disingenuous to hold bitcoin up as not being a premine
I did no such thing nor did I even allude to such a thing. It is a VERY well known fact Bitcoin was premined, and the risk of those Satoshi coins ever coming online (versus being 'lost') is a major concern for anyone that hold Bitcoin.
An ipo is not a premine, it's more of a futures contract.
Let's put it in terms of shares in a company: A Premine is shares in a company, and the IPO is selling those premine shares to the public. Call the IPO a futures contract if you like (but I dont think it is). Either way Ether is still a premined crypto or is damn near equivalent to it. Which in itself is not necessarily a bad thing, but it's a bad idea to ignore it.
[–]asdoihfasdf9239 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 4時間前 (2子コメント)
Disagree with your terminology. While there's no strict definition of "investment", most professional investors like to delineate between "investment" and "speculation" on the following basis:
investment: purchasing an asset that produces positive cash flows over time (like the equity of a profitable company or a bond).
speculation: buying (or shorting) an asset or derivative with the belief that you will profit because the price will rise or fall in the future.
Bitcoin definitely falls under speculation, but so does much of what professional investors do. Probably 90% of what hedge funds do falls under speculation, but it's not a "gamble" in the sense you're implying. Rather, it can be intelligent speculation in which the trader takes educated risks that over time produce positive expected value.
Also, BTC was effectively more pre-mined than ETH. More than 1/3 of all BTC that will ever exist were mined by Satoshi and a dozen other people before almost anyone had even heard of bitcoin. In contrast, ETH was broadly advertised before the first token was ever mined. I would argue it was the least pre-mined crypto in existence. Also, ETH does indeed have a cap. (source: I have 25% of my wealth in bitcoin and 1% in ETH).
[–]Indy_Pendant 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 4時間前 (1子コメント)
Strawman.
Absolutely BTC is speculation. All crypto is. I never stated otherwise. As I said, all cryptocurrencies are a gamble at best, and a scam at worst. Most have nothing but faith and greed backing them, with a few having gained actual fungible traction. If you're going to be pedantic, though, I won't participate; I think that's boring.
Your fuzzy definition of "pre-mined" doesn't interest me inasmuch do the motivations for which a coin was created and is being promoted. Historically, coins that have been pre-mined (with the actual definition) have been nothing more than pump-n-dump scams. Eth, regardless of your feelings, was pre-mined, with millions of coins being withheld and transferred before there existed public access to mining. Further, the massive, prolonged spam campaign does nothing to build trust that it isn't a scamcoin.
ETH does not have a cap, yet. Eventually a PoS switch will be thrown, but as of right now, it is, strictly speaking, boundless.
[–]asdoihfasdf9239 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 4時間前 (0子コメント)
It sounds like you're simply unaware of how ETH came into being. You're aware that it wasn't actually mined at all right? It was a public crowdsale, with equal access to everyone...
I don't read too much into spam campaigns. We've had them in bitcoin too. I agree they should reduce confidence in the coin in question at the margin, but only insofar as you lack the ability/time to dig deeper.
My disagreement with your statement isn't pedantic at all - I'm arguing with the substance. My point is that we can make intelligence, positive expected value bets on cryptocurrencies based on their fundamentals - and fundamentals include the architecture of the coin, its investor base, its current traction, its potential uses. It's very plausible that someone can make a series of bets on cryptos that give them an extremely high chance of substantial profit over time.
[–]imaginarybacon 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 4時間前 (0子コメント)
as it's not a usable currency yet
The actual developers behind Ethereum and a good deal of its serious evangelists will insist that it never will be a currency or commodity, because it's not designed to be one; it's an application platform. Whether that's BS or not I'll let you decide. But even if you do consider it a commodity, it's definitely never going to be a currency. Neither, frankly, is Bitcoin. Nobody's pursuing point-of-sale or really almost any consumer-facing applications for Bitcoin anymore. Focus (IE VC $$$) has shifted elsewhere.
[–]fullmatches 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 2時間前 (5子コメント)
This post is full of misinformation and misleading correct information.
For example the idea of Ethereum being "pre-mined" as a slight against it. Ethereum was sold at an open crowdsale to fund development. Now it is fine to disagree with that, but I personally don't think launching a crypto that way is wrong and it's not a hidden fact, it's all public knowledge.
[–]Indy_Pendant 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 2時間前 (4子コメント)
Strawman; no one claimed it was hidden or secretive.
Ability to obtain a coin before it's publicly mineable is the definition of pre-mined, whether those coins were kept privately or sold publicly. Is pre-mined inherently bad? No, but all scam-coins (that I know of, anyway) that participated in pump-and-dump schemes to enrich the founders of the coin all used pre-mined coins, so it is suspect-, if not guilt-by-association.
Further, as I've said elsewhere, when the founders are also large-stake holders in a cryptocurrency and actively work to promote their coin through emotional appeal (not to say there aren't technological merits, but most of the advertising, especially through the at-large spam campaign, is emotion-based), it is also suspect, as it gives a clear motivation that the coin exists for personal enrichment and not simply as a useful new technology. Is Eth unique in this? No. Do other, more accepted coins do this as well? Yes. Does Eth have the fungibility that some other more established coins have? No, at least not yet, and for me (opinion, not fact) this is what keeps it firmly in the realm of untrustful.
Again, I'm not claiming that Eth is a scam coin, though I find it suspect. Your opinion can vary; I'm not here to convince you.
[–]fullmatches 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 2時間前 (3子コメント)
Right but you're here to convince other people and I want to be clear that the pre-mine as to its affect on a new user is not more damaging than the effective loss of available bitcoin due to pre-popularity-mining. The Ethereum community at large hated the spammers specifically because we don't want to be a pump and dump. Ethereum as a tech has a chance to be huge and if it gets labelled as some "altcoin premined spamcoin" by people than we've failed.
As to fungibility I think shapeshift makes Ether (and many other coins) pretty fungible.
Can you tell me which founders have tried to promote via "emotional appeal"? I'm curious what you mean by this exactly.
I really disagree that I was using a strawman argument. By using words like pre-mine and trying to associate it with previous scamcoins you are using words intended to trigger mistrust (and contrasting with the non-premined nobility of bitcoin).
[–]Indy_Pendant 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 1時間前 (2子コメント)
I want to be clear that the pre-mine as to its affect on a new user is not more damaging than the effective loss of available bitcoin due to pre-popularity-mining.
That's an interesting statement. The "loss" of coins in a non-inflationary cryptocurrency (which Bitcoin is, Eth is not yet) is a good thing for owners of the currency (to a point, covered later). The rarity of the currency increases, and the deflationary effect is increased, increasing the comparable value of each currency unit. I said "to a point" because if too many coins are "lost" then it becomes ineffective as a transfer of wealth, but because each bitcoin is 100 million units of transfer (they call it a Satoshi), a vast majority of the 21 million bitcoins would have to become "lost" before this becomes a problem.
The Ethereum community at large hated the spammers specifically because we don't want to be a pump and dump.
I wholeheartedly believe there are people in every crypto community who want their coin to succeed. I don't doubt their sincerity. I am suspect of the founders and large-stake holders. It's different. Unfortunately for your personal cause (to see the coin succeed of its own merit), advertising campaigns that focus on emotional appeal and "Get rich quick!!!" are a detriment to your cause, and add to the suspicion.
That's not a very potent statement, though, is it now? :) I mean, we're arguing semantics at this point. Just because you can turn your (otherwise unfungible) Eth or Fedora or Doge or Peer coins into Bitcoin (which is fungible in its own right) doesn't actually make it fungible itself.
By using words like pre-mine and trying to associate it with previous scamcoins
Eth is, like many other coins, scam and otherwise, pre-mined. That's a simple fact. I, personally, take this as a knock against the coin as it provides motivation for success other than based on the merit of the technology alone. Was it warranted, or even necessary? Perhaps. But the fact remains, and I will interpret it through the lens of cryptocurrency history.
using words intended to trigger mistrust
I do mistrust Eth. As the goal of this post was to provide evidence to the OP for whether or not Eth was a good crypto to invest in, I am well within the bounds of the conversation to provide my opinion, and I go further by providing the reasons I mistrust it. But, as I've made very clear, these are only opinions, based on the reasons I've provided. If you can look at the same reasons and draw a different conclusion, more power to you, friend. Each person should be capable of their own critical thinking. Do I mistrust Eth? Yes, absolutely, and I will not own it until I do. I find it less trustworthy than Bitcoin, than Litecoin, than even Dogecoin (as their aspirations are largely to be laughable, I can at least place trust in that). Do I find any of those coins (as you stated) "noble"? Absolutely not, and I will gladly discuss, in another place, the reasons why I don't like those coins either.
And to reiterate my sole point: No, I do not believe Ethereum, or any cryptocurrency, is a good investment. It is pure speculation, a gamble at best, and a scam at worst.
[–]fullmatches 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 1時間前 (1子コメント)
Sorry I mislead by using the word "loss" there when what I really meant was "loss of availability to mine to the public". I mean MAYBE satoshi will never touch those coins or is dead or the keys are lost and they add to the value of Bitcoin by being gone forever but that's a big maybe.
Am I disagreeing with you too vociferously? I'm not trying to indicate you don't have the right or whatever to disagree and think Ethereum is a scamcoin and to tell people that. But I mean I assume you're not surprised that you get pushback on that opinion. I don't think I tried to stop you from it or said you weren't within the bounds of conversation.
[–]Indy_Pendant 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 1時間前 (0子コメント)
Ah, right, I'm taking the strict definition of "pre-mined coins" to mean coins obtained before there is any availability for the public to mine coins themselves. In this, Eth is absolutely, inarguably pre-mined. Bitcoin, I'm unsure; I would actually need to check the network accessibility to the blockchain when the genesis block was mined to say for certain. But the argument that BTC was "pre-mined" because people mined it before it was popular is both laughably ignorant and exceedingly popular when talking with Eth-enthusiasts.
But I mean I assume you're not surprised that you get pushback on that opinion.
Opinions vary. I won't argue opinions; that's a battle where both sides lose and isn't worth the effort. I will provide rebuttals as to the reasons why I hold my opinions, and will argue the validity of them. When someone claims that Eth is not pre-mined, that is a point that can be argued to conclusion. When someone tells me Eth is not a scam coin, that cannot be; whether Eth is valid or a scam has yet to be seen, and everyone, on both sides, has only opinions.
For the record, I don't 100% think Eth is a scam coin, but I find it very suspect for a myriad of reasons. My point in replying to OP was not to denigrate Eth (beyond as much as stating my opinion and reasons will do naturally) but to answer his query:
Ethereum, and all cryptocurrencies, are a bad investment. It is pure speculation, a gamble at best, and a scam at worst.
[–]Hknbgfcb -1ポイント0ポイント1ポイント 5時間前 (3子コメント)
Ethereum was not premined
[–]Indy_Pendant 2ポイント3ポイント4ポイント 5時間前 (2子コメント)
We go to the board, and Google says.....
https://www.reddit.com/r/ethereum/comments/3sn9hr/how_many_eths_is_already_premined/
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1147063.0
https://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/ethereum-premine-leading-forks-source-code/
Seems like general consensus is that you're wrong.
[–]Hknbgfcb 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 4時間前 (1子コメント)
Apologies it looks indeed i was wrong. Thanks for taking the time to provide those links and sorry for the waste of time!
[–]Indy_Pendant 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 4時間前 (0子コメント)
No worries.
[–]Brazzoz 12ポイント13ポイント14ポイント 9時間前 (5子コメント)
Ethereum is a superior tech compared to Bitcoin in every single way but can do so much more. I sold all my bitcoins to buy ethers several months ago and it was the best move ever. It's still early days and at some point this year the price will truly skyrocket. There are heaps of stealth projects and one that I'm looking forward to is the stable crypto currency (Maker) pegged to the IMF basket of major currencies (SDR). No more need to move to BTC, alts or fiat when trading. I'm planning to go to Shanghai for DevCon2 in September.
[–]rjm101 5ポイント6ポイント7ポイント 7時間前* (3子コメント)
I know very little about Ethereum but it doesn't seem to be a question of Ethereum vs Bitcoin as Ethereum seems to be a sort of framework for developing decentralised applications which can include cryptocurrencies. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5IWPyrnnkZc
[–]jaydoors 4ポイント5ポイント6ポイント 6時間前 (2子コメント)
You're right, in many ways they are complementary. Bitcoin is deliberately simple, to maximise security (minimise attack surface). Ethereum is much more ambitious, so it's much more complex. It can potentially do a lot more (at the moment at least) - but it is very early days and I'm not technical but it seems to me there must be more possible security threats.
However, both systems have a currency unit. So if you think ethereum is going to take off, and be secure, then you would probably expect the currency unit ('ether') to appreciate a lot - and possibly to eclipse bitcoin. However many people think developments in bitcoin will enable all the functionality of ethereum, while still useing the fundamental security of bitcoin (which has been out there in the wild for 7 years now, and has withstood the efforts of all the worlds best hackers).
Personally I think if you are investing in crypto it is insane to pick one over the other when you can hedge over both - which will give risks and rewards far above almost any other asset class I can think of.
[–]fullmatches 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 2時間前 (1子コメント)
The problem with bitcoin incorporating the best parts of ethereum is that they have to be tacked on to the outside or incorporated via complex sidechain mechanisms and other workarounds. When Vitalik first started building it, he saw that he had to build it from scratch to design it in a way that would work best for smart contracts. Will Bitcoin add a lot of features via sidechains and the like? Yes many companies are working on it, but so far when I've investigated their solutions they always involve enough complication to increase the attack surface and reintroduce all the problems that bitcoin supposedly avoids. That is not to say Bitcoin won't change and adapt and maybe the current schemes will be replaced by something that makes it work better. But the current trajectories of smart contract platforms on Bitcoin do not seem like they will compare to Ethereum's capability (and the amount of development circling around Ethereum).
[–]fullmatches 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 2時間前 (0子コメント)
As a personal example, I was invested in Bitcoin, participated in the Ethereum crowdsale, and started slowly moving my investment to Ethereum. I eventually moved all of them and regretted not doing so earlier. While Bitcoin has the brand name and the longevity (if you can call it that) it also has-- association with drug markets, PR problems over its lack of a known creator, and massive internal disagreement over where the project is and should be headed between the Bitcoin developers and major stakeholders (the Coinbase founder article explains a lot of this better than I have here-- https://medium.com/the-coinbase-blog/ethereum-is-the-forefront-of-digital-currency-5300298f6c75#.uk4p653vf ).
Ethereum by contrast has a known (and VERY well liked and respected) creator Vitalik Buterin who is ambitious and thoughtful. He's a great figurehead and is being seen by some as a Linus Torvalds type of shepherd for the ecosystem. He also has taken steps in many cases to reduce his own power and influence which for someone so young and with so much potential power is both impressive and surprising. A core tenant of the whole project is to make it as agnostic and open as possible to its potential uses since usually we cannot predict the most innovative uses of new platforms immediately.
That is not to say investing money in Ether isn't very risky, it absolutely, absolutely is. But if investing in an open an innovative platform with a great team building it and virtually unlimited growth potential appeals, Ethereum is absolutely one to keep an eye on.
[–]zcc0nonA 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 52分前 (0子コメント)
Ethereum is a superior tech compared to Bitcoin in every single way but can do so much more
I would love a source for this as most of my understanding ( a few years researching bitcoin and alts) has lead me to believe the opposite.
There is nothing ether can do that can't be built into btc, but btc can do plenty eth can never do
[–]WhySoS3rious 10ポイント11ポイント12ポイント 10時間前 (4子コメント)
Many say that in terms of technology Ethereum is facebook, to Bitcoin's myspace. Sure for now it's more risky and ambiguous, but has far more potential too.
[–]wycks 20ポイント21ポイント22ポイント 7時間前 (3子コメント)
This is a horrible analogy.
[–]Kooriki 5ポイント6ポイント7ポイント 4時間前 (0子コメント)
Many say that in terms of Reddit comments, your reply is Woody Harrelson, to WhySoS3rious's Bill Cosby. Sure for now it's more Rampart and less rapey but has far more potential too.
[–]shadymess 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 7時間前 (1子コメント)
Agreed, there has always been other alt coins saying are way better than Bitcoin in some ways but then they slowly fade away. Now Lisk people call themselves facebook to Ethereums myspace. A currency needs to be safe and it doesn't help to put complicated scripts on your system like Ethereum does.
[–]fullmatches 2ポイント3ポイント4ポイント 2時間前 (0子コメント)
Lisk so far appears to be a shady mess.
[–]ddd333ddd 9ポイント10ポイント11ポイント 14時間前 (14子コメント)
"There were more than 669 cryptocurrencies available for trade in online markets as of 24 August 2015 and more than 740 in total[1] but only 9 of them had market capitalizations over $10 million." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cryptocurrencies
it's basically random if there is a "boom", most will be bad investments. a market-cap weighted index fund of cryptocurrencies might be an interesting diversification tool if it ever arrives.
[–]TexasSteve3452345 15ポイント16ポイント17ポイント 13時間前 (0子コメント)
It is more based on the innovation within the actual crypto. Most of those cryptos on the list are just "alt coins" which have no real innovation other than minor tweaks. I haven't looked fully into ethereum but it does look like it has some potential.
I mainly just use bitcoin and open bazaar
[–]Bitcoinfriend 4ポイント5ポイント6ポイント 4時間前 (4子コメント)
oh god, stop it. you're so wrong here. When investing in cryptocurrency you're going to lose BIG if you simply index across the top 5 or 10 marketcap. You need to instead analyze the FUNDAMENTALS, and only then can you make informed decisions about where it's most intelligent to stake your hard earned money. For me, it's obvious that Ethereum has the strongest fundamentals and "disruptive" capabilities of any crypto. Next to Ethereum, I'd say Dash, (r/dashpay), Monero, (r/monero), and our old friend bitcoin, (r/btc) have the strongest fundamentals, communities and disruptive capabilities.
[–]Vycid 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 3時間前 (1子コメント)
"fundamentals"
/u/TheRealAntacular
[–]TheRealAntacular 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 3時間前 (0子コメント)
I read "Dash" as "Daesh."
[–]SeemedGood 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 31分前 (0子コメント)
This makes sense but I would add that it might also make sense to split the market into two broad categories first: currencies and network tokens. Currencies are those cryptos whose primary function is to act as broad-based money, programmable money, but money nonetheless. Whereas the primary purpose of network tokens is to convey the ability to use services provided by or participate in a particular network. Under this scheme, Bitcoin, Litecoin, Dogecoin, Dash, and Monero would all be considered currencies, while Ether, The DAO, MaidSafeCoin, Storjcoin, and DigixDAO would all be considered network tokens.
I found that making that initial distinction was very helpful in both defining and considering aspects of potential fundamental value in each crypto. For example, in the currencies basket I decided to eliminate any currencies that did not offer significant technological, structural, or market-based advantages over Bitcoin for being used as money which left me with Dash and Monero. In the network token basket, I suspect that those network tokens which have multiple use-cases will be more likely to thrive in the long run leading me to choose Ether and take a flyer on MaidSafecoin as opposed to something like Storjcoin.
As /r/Bitcoinfriend suggested, ultimately just picking the market weighted basket is essentially the same as just getting long BTC and taking a small flyer on ETH. When the sector is essentially a duopoly, there is more to be gained from doing your ground work and making some picks.
[–]Dumbhandle 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 3時間前 (0子コメント)
I like your list and order. Be careful of trading dash due to slippage.
[–]motoGmotoG 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 5時間前 (0子コメント)
A market-cap weighted crypto fund woulbe be >90% Bitcoin and some Ether a.t.m
Projects that are real projects with real growth potential are the ones to watch-- Bitcoin, Ethereum, DASH, Maidsafe, Storj, Siacoin, Digix, etc are a bunch of projects that when you investigate are clearly real projects trying to innovate within the space. I personally invest mostly in Ethereum and Maidsafe but would likely broaden if Ethereum continues to rise.
http://coinmarketcap.com/ is a great site to monitor all the currencies and markets out there.
[–]jtnichol 4ポイント5ポイント6ポイント 8時間前 (0子コメント)
Did you see where Ethereum sits next to Bitcoin on this list? http://coinmarketcap.com/
[–]WikipediaPoster 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 14時間前 (0子コメント)
List of cryptocurrencies
This is a list of cryptocurrencies. There were more than 669 cryptocurrencies available for trade in online markets as of 24 August 2015 and more than 740 in total but only 9 of them had market capitalizations over $10 million.
I am a bot. Please contact /u/GregMartinez with any questions or feedback.
[–]ceo-of-bitcoin 4ポイント5ポイント6ポイント 4時間前 (4子コメント)
CEO of Bitcoin here. Back in January I dumped my Bitcoin for Ethereum.
As with many new inventions, the first version is mind-blowing, but barely works. Ethereum is like Bitcoin 2.0. It's like Bitcoin, but with more possibilities.
The biggest case for Ethereum is the developer community. The smartest people in the space are flocking to Ethereum and building apps on the platform. Meanwhile, Bitcoin hasn't gotten much past operating as a simple currency.
[–]jupiter0 3ポイント4ポイント5ポイント 3時間前* (0子コメント)
Bitcoin has colored coins which are trading quite high. I just bought a stock-holder stake in Mycelium Wallet via a Bitcoin colored coin, for example. Im still 95% in ETH/DAO though. (edit: thanks for the downvotes)
[–]Onetallnerd -1ポイント0ポイント1ポイント 3時間前 (2子コメント)
'gotten past operating as a simple currency?" You do realize that's the killer app right? ETH has what? A broken DAO with bigger issues and infighting than bitcoin core dev?
[–]ceo-of-bitcoin 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 2時間前 (1子コメント)
Looks like the trolls are out in full force.
[–]Onetallnerd 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 1時間前 (0子コメント)
I own presale ether, and bitcoin. Troll? Nope. I just don't jump on the hype train.
[–]labrav 3ポイント4ポイント5ポイント 10時間前 (0子コメント)
Ethereum has a large upside potential (it could fuel a major disruptive technological change concerning many online transactions where reliability and lack of a central agent are important) but it has many major bumps ahead, including solving critical challenges ("scaleability" is one). And it is inherently very risky. And it is no more dirt cheap. I think there is room for such investments in a balanced portfolio. But I do not bet the house on it :-)
[–]polayo 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 6時間前* (0子コメント)
The real revolution is the blockchain technology, as it has merged data, network and programs in one single unit. The implications of this are similar to the advent of the world wide web.
Ethereum is a general purpose blockchain wehereas Bitcoin is specific purpose (for the moment). There are more competitors / alternatives such as Hyperledger (still in development) and more will come.
I have no idea which ones will prevail, but I am completely sure that blockchain technology is here to stay and it will be an absolute backbone of the global IT infrastucsture in the coming years.
EDIT: For more on this concept watch this video https://vimeo.com/161183966
[–]AroundTheBlock_ 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 5時間前 (0子コメント)
Guys, check out my blog, it explains a lot of use cases.
[–]ironfordinner 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 3時間前 (0子コメント)
I was in at pre sale and out at $13 ish. I took my profits because I don't see a huge upside. Average joe doesn't know jack shit about ether and probably never will. The underlying tech is easy to replicate so any big player wanting to get in on the block chain side of the business can do that. You can day trade the volatility but that's it IMO. Also the mania over at r/ethtrader is like r/Bitcoin a couple years back. Ppl are greedy as fuck yo. Stay away.
[–]newscrash 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 5時間前 (0子コメント)
I bought in at 33 cents so I'm pretty happy with my returns so far. Also look into DAO tokens being used through the ethereum platform for crowdfunding.
[–]LarsPensjo 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 5時間前 (1子コメント)
There are two major attributes that can be important to understand before investing (speculating?).
The market cap of a currency depends on the velocity of money. Bitcoin has quite a high velocity (vendors immediately sell most of it). Ethereum has contracts that can lock up money, possibly for long periods. That may considerably slow down the velocity as more attractive Dapps become available. TheDAO is such an example, and the possible change to POS may have big impacts.
It is possible (and easy) to define new currencies implemented in Ethereum, and there are already a couple of them. These can, in theory, carry large values. It was originally stated by the Ethereum team that the ether was planned mostly to be used to pay for gas (the cost of doing transactions). In the extreme case that ether is only used for gas, the total market cap is already too high.
These two effects are driving the price in opposite directions, and I don't know how it is going to end. My personal belief is that ether will actually be used also as a currency and as a bringer of value (as shown by theDAO).
(I own both bitcoin, ether, theDAO tokens and a unicorn token).
[–]ItsAConspiracy 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 1時間前 (0子コメント)
Ether will be the only currency for staking, once they transition to proof of stake. That puts a much higher floor on the value (relative to the platform's overall success, of course).
So far it looks like people are using ether as the default currency. TheDAO raised funds in ether, EtherAPIs will take ether micropayments, etc.
[–]islandcoli 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 4時間前 (0子コメント)
current year not buying Trumpcoin
current year
not buying Trumpcoin
[–]Samueth 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 4時間前 (0子コメント)
The Project was actually funded by the Peter Thiel too...
[–]cineFlex69 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 4時間前 (3子コメント)
I just want to know what exactly is the point of holding an Ethereum coin if it's neither a commodity or a currency. What is the actual coin's value? I know Ether is supposed to be an application platform, but I don't understand how the layman uses the coins.
[–]fullmatches 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 2時間前 (1子コメント)
In order to execute transactions on the network there is a mechanism referred to as "gas". A user pays gas to execute those transactions, gas can (at least currently) only be paid for with Ether, so Ether sort of acts like its own commodity to be used on its own network. Some people compare this to "oil" but I think it's a clumsy metaphor because supply and demand of oil are contingent upon many external factors that can't be accounted for or controlled. Ether on the other hand is distributed/created under a set of known rules. Developers have focused on the usefulness of Ethereum as a platform and this has caused speculation, which has raised the price (there is limited Ether available to buy depending on who wants to sell it, so speculation and trading occurs). There is no reason whatsoever that Ether cannot be used as a currency, it works as well as Bitcoin for this (in some ways much better). Due to it being the base unit of Ethereum, many speculators such as myself believe that in a future where Ethereum is big, Ether acceptance as a currency would be huge since it would be useful (for using the network), easily tradeable for fiat or other cryptos (via decentralized exchanges or centralized exchanges or smart contract swaps), and once Proof of Stake is implemented Ether owned could potentially provide a dividend-like return.
[–]fullmatches 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 2時間前 (0子コメント)
Basically Ethereum developers believe promoting use as a currency or store of value is putting the cart before the horse. Build a useful and open ecosystem and attract development and then hopefully it will be so useful that expansion will occur naturally.
[–]jeniFive 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 3時間前* (0子コメント)
You could spent about 5000$ and it will be about 416 of ether and forget about it for a year.
During a year there could happend three things.
And 416 of ether for the price of 500$ is 208 000 $.
So you will gain very good profit by spending just about 5000$.
So my advice spent that much of money that you ready to lose and hold for long term. Like 50 000 $ could become 2 080 000 $ and you will be able to not work until the rest of your days. Or you can start doing what you were always wanted but couldn't continue because it wasnt so profitable.
[–]cineFlex69 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 2時間前 (1子コメント)
See I understand the profit motive for holding, but I don't understand what the use of the actual coin is. I get the potential applications on the network, but what does the actual coin do? You see what I'm saying?
I may buy a few just because it seems interesting but there's no way I put any significant amount of money in until I understand the fundamentals of the actual coin aka what you actually own.
[–]fullmatches 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 1時間前 (0子コメント)
You can see my more detailed post above, but Ether is need to pay for transactions on the network. This hopefully will give Ether a base intrinsic value based on the usefulness of its own ecosystem.
An additional interesting wrinkle of POS is that it would mean that large ether holders would be the ones securing the network. So then imagine some company builds a useful platform on top of ethereum, in order to secure their platform they need ethereum to be secure, they are then incentivized to be stakers or at least holders themselves in order to secure their own platform. The idea is to combine technology with economic psychology to create a positive feedback loop of value.
I understand the profit motive for holding but I do not understand the actual use of the coin itself. What purpose does it serve?
I'll probably buy a few coins because I'm interested in the technology (as far as I understand it that is) but what am I exactly buying? If the coin is not a currency, what is its use? The network that one would build an app on is one thing, but that's separate from coin ownership right?
Someone please explain because it's going over my head here.
[–]maxi_malism 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 33分前 (0子コメント)
When you want to run a smart contract, or submit a smart contract to the blockchain, you pay for computation with ether. It's almost like a vending machine - you insert a coin to make the machine do stuff.
Ether is also nicely integrated into the whole ecosystem. Contracts can accept and hold ether (thus acting like a piggybank / escrow service / a casino / whatever) and pass it on when certain conditions are met.
[–]loki0505 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 2時間前 (0子コメント)
Stack & Hold. This is a future investment.
[–]sandakersmann 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 1時間前 (0子コメント)
EtherPoker raising the stakes with Ethereum
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/etherpoker-raising-stakes-ethereum-1551331
It's speculation. It'd be good speculation. Wouldn't call it an investment yet, but it's the best one I've ever made. (Full disclosure: early adopter)
[–]jamiepitts 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 29分前 (0子コメント)
One way to think of ethereum is that it is infrastructure for a small, emerging economy. Many talented people are now building businesses and organizations in this economy, taking advantage of the uniquely reliable and efficient business conditions.
You can buy ether itself as an investment, but you may have better results by investing in the viable businesses being built in the ethereum economy. The DAO is an experimental vehicle aiming to do just that, and there soon will be more.
You will need to first purchase ether in order to participate. You will need to be familiar with the mechanics of interacting with contracts running on the network. You will also need to be very aware of the financial protections and exposures that are intrinsic to ethereum.
Otherwise, the basic rules of investing apply!
[–]americanpegasus 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 10分前 (0子コメント)
Ethereum is trying to be too many things at once IMHO. It also doesn't solve core problems like privacy, which is a critical flaw it shares with Bitcoin.
Monero (/r/monero) is based off of the Cryptonote protocol which is the first major blockchain spec to have privacy built in. Imagine being able to store and send any amount of money without anyone being able to trace you or see what you are holding. Think that has value? You're damn right it does. Come read and learn more about it.
[–]coincrazyy 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 12時間前* (30子コメント)
Ethereum is a sound cryptocurrency investment if there is such a thing.
Bitcoin is more sound
Why?
Well, feature for feature, Ethereum is kinda better than Bitcoin. Ethereum is a turing complete language (it can approximately simulate the computational aspects of any other real-world general-purpose computer or computer language.) Ethereum's block time is seconds, while Bitcoin is minutes.
But these are fancy hubcaps on a Bitcoin car when the rest of the world is riding horses.
Bitcoin is the car in this analogy and has the first mover advantage. It has one property that Ethereum doesnt which puts it ahead in many peoples eyes; it is limited to 21 million tokens. Ethereum will inflate forever.
Many people are using Bitcoin/crypto to protect their wealth. They protect it by getting rid of their bank balance and sticking it into Bitcoin where it is hard to trace and nearly impossible to take. They are using Bitcoin as a store of value.
Lets say you are storing your wealth in Babe Ruth baseball cards. Would you bet a the baseball card would be worth more tomorrow if there were only 5 in existence or 10?
It is here why many question Ethereum's store of value property. Its monetary inflation rate is algorithmic and not easily comprehended by the layman. Its deflationary tendency is based on adoption AND monetary inflation rates.
I am invested in both and own 5x more Ethereum than Bitcoin but if I were to guess on which one is going to explode in price, my guess would be Bitcoin.
Edit: lol'mg shill alert sort by controversial! :D
[–]RedRol 6ポイント7ポイント8ポイント 8時間前 (6子コメント)
They are using Bitcoin as a store of value.
How can it be a store of value when it is as volatile as it is?
[–]ItsAConspiracy 2ポイント3ポイント4ポイント 6時間前 (4子コメント)
Ether's inflation right now is actually simpler than Bitcoin's. Every year it adds 26% as many coins as it initially awarded to crowdsale participants. It's just like Bitcoin except it doesn't halve the minting rate every four years.
Currently the annualized rate is under 20%. When Bitcoin first had a $1 billion market cap it was inflating at 33%, since in the fourth year it added as many coins as in each of the first three years.
Ethereum hopes to lower that rate with upgrades later. The legal documents for the crowdsale guaranteed that the rate would not be increased, but could be reduced.
[–]coincrazyy 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 6時間前* (2子コメント)
Thanks for that useful info regarding the inflation rate.
Do you know if they have decided exactly when they will move to PoS?
[–]ItsAConspiracy 2ポイント3ポイント4ポイント 4時間前 (1子コメント)
The plan for a while has been around the 90 million coin mark, and someone recently posted that Vitalik just reiterated that in a meeting so they seem to be on schedule. Right now it's at 80 million coins and minting 5 coins every block with an average block time of 14 seconds, which puts us about 11 months out.
It's definitely not a fixed schedule. They plan formal proofs, peer review, and extensive testing on a public test network, possibly with real-world value so people have an incentive to hack it. They're also planning to roll it out in stages, so initially we'll have hybrid PoS/PoW.
[–]fullmatches 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 1時間前 (0子コメント)
Damn Ether shills! Coming in here with their honest and straightforward explanations!
This doesn't get mentioned much, but Ethereum is a better proposition in this way than when first proposed. When I first bought into the crowdsale I expected POW and inflation forever. Now developers intend inflation to be as low as possible while still securing the network. I know 21 million coins max forever has an emotional and simplicity appeal, but the Ethereum teams structure is based on trying to figure out what the best inflation rate is in terms of success of the platform. If you believe completely deflationary currency is the only way to gain value than sure I can understand why ether wouldn't appeal but cryptoeconomics are so new and understudied that believing there is only one true solution seems mad.
[–]jtnichol 2ポイント3ポイント4ポイント 8時間前 (0子コメント)
Yes, Bitcoin has first mover advantage; like the first car.
Ethereum is Henry Ford.
Don't get me wrong. I agree with most of what you say. But Ethereum is going to ride alongside BTC in a different way. It's got the teeth, development, and network effect started to do some worthwhile things rolling forward.
[–]jonesyjonesy 4ポイント5ポイント6ポイント 9時間前 (10子コメント)
Ethereum is not going to inflate forever. This is misinformation.
Also, I wouldn't call Ethereum's turing complete language "just hubcaps". It's a pretty important feature for app development. If you've heard the term "blockchain technology" being mumbled around fintech articles over the past couple years, Ethereum has the potential to develop virtually anything on its blockchain due to it being turing complete (a decentralized uber, a decenteralized airbnb, a decenteralized voting system, etc.). That's where the potential in it lies.
Here's a good article about it: https://medium.com/the-coinbase-blog/ethereum-is-the-forefront-of-digital-currency-5300298f6c75#.segxz7xyy
[+]coincrazyy スコアが基準値未満のコメント-6ポイント-5ポイント-4ポイント 9時間前* (9子コメント)
It is the DEVS decision on its inflation rate. Ethereum was created with an algorithmic inflation mechanism so you cannot tell me it wont inflate forever until you write the code that stops it from doing so.
It seems you know a lot about why Ethereum is turing complete, so I assume you know why Bitcoin isn't. (you can read up on it here https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=431513.0)
Not being Turing complete is a feature you want your store of value to have. It is not a bug.
(turing completeness) It's a pretty important feature for app development.
Its not an important feature for money
[–]lf11 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 5時間前 (0子コメント)
Frustrating to see good comments get downvoted.
[–]jonesyjonesy 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 9時間前 (3子コメント)
I actually wasn't talking about Bitcoin at all, or suggesting it was "bugged" :/
[–]coincrazyy -1ポイント0ポイント1ポイント 7時間前 (2子コメント)
No, but you are acting like its a net negative that Bitcoin is not turing complete. Its apples and oranges. Both are fruit just with different qualities.
[–]jonesyjonesy 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 7時間前 (1子コメント)
I said nothing about Bitcoin. I like both, and think a world where both are successful is best for crypto. So I think you're off base.
[–]coincrazyy -1ポイント0ポイント1ポイント 7時間前 (0子コメント)
I believe in both also so we agree
[–]baddogesgotoheaven 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 8時間前 (3子コメント)
Have you even read the thread you linked? The security concerns that came up have been successfully addressed by the Ethereum protocol a long time ago (thread was started in early 2014). I am in no way claiming that it is perfectly safe yet nor that I am an expert but if the opinion of the experts in that thread hold weight, then you should know that most of them have publicly accepted by now that the initial Ethereum experiment was a success and acknowledged profound potential.
[–]coincrazyy -1ポイント0ポイント1ポイント 6時間前 (2子コメント)
The security concerns that came up have been successfully addressed by the Ethereum protocol a long time ago
Ethereum is months old. How the hell can you say it is safe..? Ethereum still hasnt even switched to its long term security model - PoS..??
No matter what you respond, there isn't a PoS coin alive that hasnt been hacked or been completely overtaken by a dictator in existence.
[–]baddogesgotoheaven -1ポイント0ポイント1ポイント 5時間前* (1子コメント)
I'm referring to the security concerns that came up in the thread you linked, namely the risk of usage of Turing Completeness. I made no claim about the future implementations like PoS that are obviously unproven yet and carry a substantial amount of risk.
EDIT:
"I am in no way claiming that it is perfectly safe yet" "How the hell can you say it is safe..?"
"I am in no way claiming that it is perfectly safe yet"
"How the hell can you say it is safe..?"
[–]coincrazyy 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 5時間前 (0子コメント)
The risks of turing completeness is the risk of security holes which may arise due to its turing completeness.
It is disingenuous to assert there are no security holes after a few months of running; frankly, it's just plain incompetent for anyone to say anything is secure after a couple months and Im sure even Vitalik would admit that security concerns may arise.
Wait until enterprise wide projects are deployed and has a decent user base with complex behaviour before attesting to the security of the ethereum programming environment/runtime environment.
[–]Surfaccountant 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 10時間前 (4子コメント)
Bitcoin defiantly has first mover advantage. And a good inflation model. However, Ethereum is likely to have zero inflation after the next year. I hold both to the same ratio and they are the only crypto i hold. https://www.reddit.com/r/ethereum/comments/3hz1ou/misinformation_about_eth_supply_and_inflation_rate/
[–]coincrazyy 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 10時間前 (3子コメント)
Yes that is a good guess.
It is a guess and no one knows until the PoS switch. Nothing I said is untrue. As an investor, asking the question "How many Babe ruth cards will there ever be?" (replacing cards with Ether) cannot be answered simply which is a detriment to those looking to store wealth.
[–]fullmatches 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 1時間前 (2子コメント)
Sure but I would argue most people are currently looking to speculate and that neither are a safe store of wealth (yet). I suspect that's why you hold ether, because before it gets to the point that it could be a store of wealth, it would also increase by multiples of its current value.
[–]coincrazyy 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 1時間前 (1子コメント)
I would argue that since this is why we are doing it we assume everyone else is too.
There are a lot of Chinese people currently freaking out about capital controls. Their yuan to btc conversion is a store of value.
Sort of a store of value I'd argue. They see it as enough of a store to be worth the risk, but that's also to counterbalance the risk of holding yuan and not being able to get it out. The Chinese miners also I believe distort the market enough that I don't think we can get a clear picture of what exactly is going on. And that's ignoring the no-fee exchanges over there!
I think everyone in the space (myself included) make the mistake of thinking that cause and effect in crypto markets is more closely linked than they really are
[–]FARTINGTOOLOUD 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 7時間前 (0子コメント)
Bitcoin = Flintstone's car. Ethereum = Tesla Model S.
If we're talking about first mover advantage and network effect, it should be about how Bitcoin is forfeiting these traits. People who get tied up in this train of thought end up like AOL.
[–]luckiredd 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 9時間前 (0子コメント)
If a currency value should be an index of an entire economy, then Ethereum should have a huge potential, being an index of processing power available to Dapps and Ethereum based smart contracts.
[–]Almighty_Bit 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 7時間前 (0子コメント)
Its not easy for Ethereum to beat Bitcoin .
There are a lot of markets that accept Bitcoin and no other Currency so the Bitcoin price is not going to drop down ....
I don't think that Ethereum will be the same as Bitcoin ... I mean most Bitcoin users in the PAST were criminals and thats how it got big and drawn all the attention .
I hope for all Ethereum investors that the price will grow just like Bitcoin did , But i don't think so ......
[–]lordOzora 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 6時間前 (2子コメント)
bitcoin has limited supply, ethereum doesn't. they're both meant to serve different purposes (decentralised computer and decentralised currency).
[–]Hiphopsince1988 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 6時間前 (1子コメント)
Ethereum does what bitcoin can but the opposite is not true.
[–]lordOzora 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 5時間前 (0子コメント)
ok :)
[–]Bitcoinfriend 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 5時間前* (6子コメント)
Yes, Ethereum is not only a good cryptocurrency to invest in, it's looking to be the TOP cryptocurrency in a matter of weeks or months. Getting in right now makes you an "early bird", and you'll probably garner hefty gains from such timing. It's about to go mainstream, and I feel like RIGHT NOW is nearly the last time to get in before the price really rockets to the moon. Not trying to hype here, just being realistic; eth fundamentals are BETTER than Bitcoin's, there are more active nodes, more active developers, and most importantly more POSSIBILTIES. With Ethereum, cryptocurrency is more than just a currency, it's a PROGRAMMABLE currency. It's going to revolutionize insurance and many other billion/trillion dollar industries.
To put it simply, right now is a good time to invest in Ethereum.
[–]AnythingForSuccess 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 4時間前 (4子コメント)
Getting in right now makes you an "early bird", and you'll probably garner hefty gains from such timing.
If it is discussed on /r/investing with 80 upvotes, you are in no way, shape or form an "early bird".
[–]fullmatches 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 1時間前 (3子コメント)
In general terms even knowing what crypto IS still makes you an early bird. As a part of the world economy the whole of everything barely even registers as a blip.
[–]Onetallnerd 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 2時間前 (0子コメント)
That is so misleading. Just you wait until nodes double in size memory wise. When there is abundant litewallets like there is with bitcoin. No one will run a node. Hell I run a node just to use the damn wallet? Do you think I'm going to run one when it's 100gb+? Hell no. Are most people? Nope. Bitcoin had the same thing happen back in the day. Know your crypto history, it's apples to oranges.
[–]Kooriki -3ポイント-2ポイント-1ポイント 14時間前* (6子コメント)
I've been looking into it a bit lately, and to tell you the truth... I feel it has some potential, but after the burst of alt-coins that came on the scene in 2013-2015 it feels like just another alt-coin. I asked around the Reddit sub just yesterday, and to be honest it had that same feeling I got from the hype for Ripple, Maidsafe, Namecoin, Colored coins... The latter two of which are mentioned in the Ethereum whitepaper. Funnily enough, bitcoin had a huge jump this week. If you already have some bitcoin you did well today. Ethereum is also significantly pre-mined. Something to be consider if you're looking to invest.
Full disclosure: I own Bitcoin and Dogecoin. Lost coins (peercoin) when an exchange closed down and wouldn't transfer my coins back (Vault of Satoshi). I am no longer active in cryptocurrency forums or trading.
[–]callmeneilarmstrong 5ポイント6ポイント7ポイント 9時間前 (2子コメント)
I'd hardly call a coin that has 5 times the market cap of litecoin and a greater node volume than Bitcoin "just another alt coin". Not to mention some of the largest BTC exchanges added ETH support just within the past week, Microsoft and other companies are utilizing it, and the technology behind it has actual application value outside of being a alt currency.
You can be skeptical from an investment standpoint, hell I moved most of my ETH to BTC before the most recent gains, but lumping a coin that is the second largest crypto by a huge margin in with every other alt coin just comes off as uninformed.
[–]Kooriki 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 6時間前* (1子コメント)
It has a lot of potential, sure. So did the others I listed. Will it stand up long term? Who knows. What I do know is I sifted through a lot of altcoins a few years back. It's the same flavor of hype; The hard to find eli5 description, the 'cut out the middle men', and "bankers hate us" pump videos... I'm sure it's different this time, and Ethereum might be the Bitcoin killer, finally create a fiat replacement, revolutionize smart contracts. "Rockets to the moon, don't miss out like you did with Bitcoin". Take a look at the Ethereum project page for example. They had enough time to put together a slick video about the glorious future. But when it comes to a basic learning resources, the wiki section is "To be extended".
Sure, Microsoft is on board, which says a lot. It's certainly got better backing than most(all?) altcoins that came before it. That's a good thing. Im certainly not going to bet the farm on it
You can be skeptical from an investment standpoint
Ha, you have to be. Can't buy anything with it yet, but it has potential.
TL;DR: If you already know crypto-currency, and were in on any of the last bubbles or have experience in the past with hyped garbage altcoins - You're already aware of the landscape, to everyone else: Be ware of the "get-rich quick" tone and see if you believe in the potential of the underlying tech.
Maidsafe is still an ongoing project for what it's worth. Development has been slow seeming from the outside but it's not exactly a simple project either. I wouldn't be surprised at all if its price exploded after release.
[–]What_Is_X 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 7時間前 (2子コメント)
How good is Dogecoin hey
[–]Kooriki 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 6時間前 (0子コメント)
For me it was a fun, almost valueless practice currency. I actually bought a few things with Dogecoin back when the hype was at its peak. Fun community
[–]TonyMcCarp 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 9時間前 (0子コメント)
Good read:
http://forums.prohashing.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=846
[–]Cygnus_X 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 5時間前* (0子コメント)
Anyone wary of digital currencies needs to read about MPesa.
To give a quick 'I don't want to google it', Africa had a major banking problem. Very rural areas could not justify the expense of building a stand-alone bank that would allow the locals to perform electronic transactions that we take for granted.
You may say 'but why do I care? Africa is poor as hell'. That may be true, but add in the tiny value of millions of people, and you start talking about real money. Billions in fact.
So, MPesa was created as an alternate to the banking problem. Basically, all you need is a cell phone that can text. The system links your telephone and a 6 digit PIN to the MPesa network, and boom, you can now text money. You buy MPesa like you'd buy local currency while on vacation.
People in very rural areas with no access to a bank can now get paid in MPesa for growing something like rice, and turn around and use MPesa to pay their electric bills. This, despite no bank for 100 miles. It has done wonders for the poor there. It has created what the locals call "Silicone Savannah".
Bitcoin, Ethereum and other crypto are decentralized version of MPesa. Most people are familiar with them now. And besides their legitimate uses, which are very real, they are also heavily used on black markets. There are literally tens (if not hundreds) of millions of dollars of transactions happening frequently on the crypto networks. And it's growing rapidly.
People are very quick to want to dismiss Crypto as a fools gold or an outright waste of money, but it has very real uses and transaction volumes that should not be ignored. It is also difficult to deny stats like Bitcoin being the single best investment since 2009, returning nearly 10,000% since inception.
[–]maxi_malism 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 3時間前 (0子コメント)
Skynet
[–]TotesMessenger 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 10時間前 (1子コメント)
I'm a bot, bleep, bloop. Someone has linked to this thread from another place on reddit:
If you follow any of the above links, please respect the rules of reddit and don't vote in the other threads. (Info / Contact)
[–]lf11 2ポイント3ポイント4ポイント 5時間前 (0子コメント)
Ah this explains the fanboi flavor of the thread.
[–]Working_onit -5ポイント-4ポイント-3ポイント 7時間前 (0子コメント)
"Investment"
[–]Annapurna317 -2ポイント-1ポイント0ポイント 3時間前 (1子コメント)
Only people here that own ETH will tell you it's a good investment.
[–]jupiter0 2ポイント3ポイント4ポイント 3時間前 (0子コメント)
isnt that the case with many investments? and if they dont own it, its because they cant afford it.
π Rendered by PID 391 on app-231 at 2016-05-31 20:12:30.809006+00:00 running d0f7a78 country code: JP.
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