You know me. When I make a promise...

Sentient_Atom · 5時間前

So are y'all having to extract the halo 3 map bsp, physics mod, then inject them into an existing map like the old SP->MP conversions on H2?

Sentient_Atom · 6時間前

If I cut off your earlobe would that mean your ear was amputated?

Now let's say I did while you were an infant because a physician said it was going to endanger your life.

Would the function of your ear be inhibited by the loss of your ear lobe?

Would you be shunned by society in a diverse nation with millions of other children without ear lobes?

Would you be made fun of or bullied?

Would you hate me for it?

You are a strange individual by my standards, we just don't perceive the world the same.

The big difference is I'm not trying to discredit anyone's argument using subjective opinions or ad hominem.

Me and hundreds of millions of people who were circumcised are living happy full UTI and cancer-free lives. We don't hate or resent our parents for looking out for our health.

And I'm certainly not "hurt", "molested", "raped", "tortured", or lacking.

If you circumcise your child, that's great. If you choose not to that's great too.

That's a responsibility of parenting.

To choose decisions for your child based on your experience, and knowledge.

But to try to force anything on everyone is bigotry, and so I think the choice should remain the individual families to make as a unit. Be it husband and wife; husband and husband; or wife and wife. It's the families choice, not yours.

Stop worrying about other people's babies genitals.

Sentient_Atom · 6時間前

I won't rule out that I am in need of improvement of my communication skills, but I am neither a twat nor insufferable for thinking that calling people bitter names because they disagree with feelings and hold fast to reason is unjustified.

Sentient_Atom · 6時間前

I am attempting to justify something I see as medically beneficial. I am not confused, or scrambling to justify anything. Frankly I don't give a shit about foreskin or circumcision outside the argument of parents rights.

If my dick were uncircumcised my opinion would be the same, because I reason based on facts not emotion and opinion.

Sentient_Atom · 7時間前

1) There is not a simple surgery in women that doesn't impair their quality of life to prevent UTIs

2)Foreskin is not an organ and removing it is not an amputation.

Sentient_Atom · 9時間前

Did anything I posted say anything about vanity or that I take enjoyment from the operation?

I have posted that my belief and understanding of the facts are that it puts an infant at physical risk of disease to leave the foreskin, and health complication risk to perform a circumcision later in life.

Maybe more study needs to be done into the effects of the operation in later life to assure consent, but again it is a parents responsibility to do what is in the best interests of their child on their behalf.

But you come in here calling me rapist, murderer, monster, subhuman...

You people are fanatics plain and simple.

Unable to carry out logical thought and have coherent debate based on facts, you all scream and shout insults when confronted with opinions that differ from your own.

You are an immature person a neo-liberal no better than the lunatics of the far right conservatives screaming about gay marriage and bathroom policies and your LOUD OPINION doesn't refute scientific findings.

Sick and fucking tired of this ad-hominem bullshit from loud mouths who cannot debate.

Things should be argued on the merit of their validity not on the integrity of the individual making the argument.

And if you want a world where no one gets to have an opinion that differs from yours for fear of physical harm, harassment, and death... You are no better than muslim extremists who actually rape, mutilate, and torture children.

All the while completely belittling the struggles ACTUAL mutilation, rape, and torture victims go through.

Take your vitriol and carry your ass.

Sentient_Atom · 9時間前

Every benefit claimed since then is just an excuse to keep the easy money rolling in.

I guess I am just ignorant in not seeing foreskin removal as mutilation because there are known health benefits and it doesn't damage the quality of life of the individual or function of the organ.

But that aside, there have been many studies performed that list many reasons for having a foreskin removal such as decreased risk of UTIs, cancer development, and later in life STDs.

That said, there are also a lot of happy circumcised individuals and it sounds to me like all this boils down to. Are the risks great enough to justify making a consent on behalf of your child to have the operation performed.

Have read a lot of horror stories about health complications from bacterial infections in newborns who weren't circumcised.

And then there are the more practical studies on the tissue itself:

The foreskin is the least sensitive to fine touch among eight hairless sites on the body!

Meissner’s corpuscles (MC) are a type of nerve that is responsible for fine touch sensation. More MC per square millimeter (higher density) indicates more sensitivity to fine touch, and fewer (lower density) indicates less sensitivity.

This study examined the density of MC for eight hairless locations on the body and found to be highest in the fingertips and lowest in the foreskin. The density in the foreskin was about one-third to half the density of the fingertip. In order from highest density to lowest density, the results were: fingertip, palm, sole, lip, front of the forearm, top of the hand, top of the foot, and foreskin.

Size of the MC also correlates to sensation, with bigger MC correlating to more sensitivity and smaller MC correlating to lower sensitivity. Among the eight sites, MC were smallest in the foreskin, indicating again that sensitivity was lowest in the foreskin as compared to the other seven sites.

http://medind.nic.in/jae/t08/i1/jaet08i1p30.pdf

But this isn't a discussion for facts, it's a whole group of opinionated people putting forth the argument that circumcision before consent is immoral.

And I disagree based on what I know from studies that have been performed.

My concern is that it is a risk to the infant to wait.

That said, if that turns out to not be true, and I don't mean by popular opinion.

Then I have no issues with waiting until the individual can consent.

Sentient_Atom · 12時間前

As I understand it you take the percentile occurrence of issue in an uncircumcised group, then compare the percentage of occurrence to another circumcised group.

This is how I understand you get the relative percentage of risk.

What does the frequently cited “60% relative reduction” in HIV infections actually mean? Across all three female-to-male trials, of the 5,411 men subjected to male circumcision, 64 (1.18%) became HIV-positive. Among the 5,497 controls, 137 (2.49%) became HIV-positive, so the absolute decrease in HIV infection was only 1.31%.

Sentient_Atom · 12時間前

I'm not dodging, you are assuming, and you're wrong to assume I am being anything less than analytical on this topic.

"minimum potential medical benefit"

If as in the case of circumcision, the surgery doesn't have a severe negative affect on the organ or the quality of life of the individual, and the risk of waiting several years puts the individual in danger: that's my main consideration.

As to the potential benefit, I'd say if there is a probable likelihood of developing a severe complication as a result of waiting for consent.

But if you want me quantify that to some kind of percentile, I'd say anything over 10%, because 1 in 10 being afflicted with a disease or illness that those who are circumcised don't have to suffer seems justifiable.

But again, and I can't stress this enough, my opinion on this matter is based around the belief that waiting can endanger the child. If it doesn't and it can be proven that there is only a marginal risk in waiting for consent then I would opt for that.

"How spineless can one be? Fine, I'll play stupid your stupid semantic game" Why do you have to be so hateful, that seems like a running theme among people against circumcision.

You do understand what civil discussion is, right?

Because there is an old tactic where people who cannot debate on factual grounds resort to insulting and belittling their target in an attempt to make them subhuman and therefor undeserving of consideration. And I see a whole thread full of people doing just that.

Sentient_Atom · 12時間前

cause untold children would have been mutilated before it was addressed otherwise.

I guess I am just ignorant in not seeing foreskin removal as mutilation because there are known health benefits and it doesn't damage the quality of life of the individual or function of the organ.

But that aside, there have been many studies performed that list many reasons for having a foreskin removal such as decreased risk of UTIs, cancer development, and later in life STDs.

That said, there are also a lot of happy circumcised individuals and it sounds to me like all this boils down to. Are the risks great enough to justify making a consent on behalf of your child to have the operation performed.

Have read a lot of horror stories about health complications from bacterial infections in newborns who weren't circumcised.

And then there are the more practical studies on the tissue itself:

The foreskin is the least sensitive to fine touch among eight hairless sites on the body!

Meissner’s corpuscles (MC) are a type of nerve that is responsible for fine touch sensation. More MC per square millimeter (higher density) indicates more sensitivity to fine touch, and fewer (lower density) indicates less sensitivity.

This study examined the density of MC for eight hairless locations on the body and found to be highest in the fingertips and lowest in the foreskin. The density in the foreskin was about one-third to half the density of the fingertip. In order from highest density to lowest density, the results were: fingertip, palm, sole, lip, front of the forearm, top of the hand, top of the foot, and foreskin.

Size of the MC also correlates to sensation, with bigger MC correlating to more sensitivity and smaller MC correlating to lower sensitivity. Among the eight sites, MC were smallest in the foreskin, indicating again that sensitivity was lowest in the foreskin as compared to the other seven sites.

http://medind.nic.in/jae/t08/i1/jaet08i1p30.pdf

But this isn't a discussion for facts, it's a whole group of opinionated people putting forth the argument that circumcision before consent is immoral.

And I disagree based on what I know from studies that have been performed.

My concern is that it is a risk to the infant to wait.

That said, if that turns out to not be true, and I don't mean by popular opinion.

Then I have no issues with waiting until the individual can consent.

Sentient_Atom · 13時間前

what is the least consequential medical benefit that justifies involuntary genital amputation?

You said amputation so I imagine you mean taking the whole penis, and that is something that in my mind would have to serve an immediate health risk to be removed such as if it had developed a massive tumor on the organ and there was no way to salvage the penis.

That said, I don't see foreskin removal as being that invasive, it's just a protective hood of specialized skin that surrounds the glans.

Removing it doesn't seriously harm someone's quality of life.

Really what it all comes down to in my mind is: do the benefits outweigh the removal of consent.

And from the studies I have seen the answer is yes. But if those studies are flawed, then there need to be more studies performed and it needs to be definitive and conclusive.

If there is no risk (which is contrary to what I have read) in circumcising later in life, and there is no probable risk in the period of time leading up to that choice of severe health concerns(Which again is contrary to what I have read), then we should not perform infant circumcisions.

Sentient_Atom · 13時間前

I agree that I can't comment on what it would be like if I had my foreskin, but my quality of life is good.

And while surgery to remove rotting toddlers teeth may not be exactly the same, it is another example of you as a parent having to be the consenting individual in looking out for the welfare of the child.

Soon they won't even be using surgery for circumcision as a device has been developed to cut off sensation and bloodflow to the skin: http://www.timesofisrael.com/israeli-developed-circumcision-device-to-be-distributed-in-africa/

Sentient_Atom · 13時間前

Ok guy, I'll do that seeing as I'm not a surgeon. Fucking bleeding heart idiot.

Sentient_Atom · 13時間前

Care to back that up or is it a crime to have an opinion now?

Sentient_Atom · 13時間前

Here is what I am getting at why would I feel bad about something that isn't harming me or lessening my quality of life. Me and my penis are perfectly happy, enjoying a regular life.

I think all this talk of mutilation, rape, and torture really makes light the struggle of people who have their genitals mutilated, are tortured, and are raped.

Seems like a bunch of insensitive buzzwords by people who have never been mutilated, tortured, or raped.

Sentient_Atom · 23時間前

Sorry man, that is the prison systems dirty coinpurse spilling out onto the streets.

Sentient_Atom · 23時間前

That is fair, and I hope it is determined from scientific study to be unbeneficial and not hyperbole or flawed statistics.

Sentient_Atom · 1日前

My dick works fine so far as I have noticed, what exactly am I missing? Aside from some skin?

Sentient_Atom · 1日前

Of course, and yes I am. So I don't have any personal frame of reference to what is like not being circumcised. My support stems from a belief it's beneficial and is safer to do at an early age.

Sentient_Atom · 1日前

Thank you for a coherent counter perspective.

Sentient_Atom · 1日前

Thanks man.

Female mutilation has to my knowledge no medical benefits, and it was my understanding that there were many benefits to male circumcision. Several of the few studies done appear to have issues in the means by which the data was collected though and it definitely deserves more study at higher standards.

Sentient_Atom · 1日前

And there you are with the character attacks. Fuck off guy.

And for the record children want and don't want a lot of stupid shit, because they have not fully developed cognitively. You think they want any surgery or operation before they're old enough to comprehend why it needs to be done? Hell no, but that falls on you as a parent to consent on their behalf and in their interests.

But you're right I am retarded for thinking health should come before choice.

Sentient_Atom · 1日前

There should be more scientific studies with better practices, imo

Sentient_Atom · 1日前

It sounds like there were issues with the study on numerous valid grounds.

To me that means there needs to be more studies performed and to higher standards. Also coming back to edit, I had faith that the CDC wouldn't peddle such poorly conducted studies. And the 60% reduction between two rates each less than 3% is very troubling. That is misleading, while true, it is such a small study it could easily be erroneous due to the small group size.

Sentient_Atom · 1日前

Because as I understand it, the infant body heals faster and there is less risk of performing the surgery on a child. So in that regard I believe it is the parents responsibility to choose what is best for the child in the window of time where healing is lowest in risk.

If that is not the case then I am for further study on circumcision to determine what can mitigate the risks of waiting.

And again, I still do not see cutting the tissue from around the glans as mutilation. Mutilation doesn't serve a beneficial purpose and is done to intentionally disfigure.

Is my perspective THAT difficult for you to grasp.

I see your perspective, I just believe the benefits outweigh the risks. And I think parental responsibility for the welfare of the child and a supposed window for ideal healing and the lowest possible complications to be the justification for the parent to make the decision that protects their child.

Sentient_Atom

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