全 175 件のコメント

[–]UpsideVII 12ポイント13ポイント  (6子コメント)

Without trying to poke the hornets nest, can anyone link me to or provide a list of cohesive Marxian economic claims? I've had some encounters with Marxism (I took a single Marxist philosophy course, so I'm basically an expert) that left me with the impression that many fields have made great use of Marxism, but I've read nothing that has convinced me that Marxist economics has anything to contribute to economics as a field.

Many of these discussion seem to devolve to someone saying "Marxist economics is bad economics", someone else saying "But Marxism is useful in other contexts!" and that somehow turning into a shitshow, despite the fact that those two states are perfectly compatible.

[–]The_Old_Gentleman 5ポイント6ポイント  (4子コメント)

The thing is that Marxist political economy and mainstream economics are usually interested in answering different questions about the economy, but there are however some areas of Marxist thought that overlaps with macroeconomics. For a rather short paper on this subject i recommend reading Fred Moseley's reply[1] to Mark Blaug's appraisal of Marxist thought. For a larger introduction to Marxist thought i recommend Duncan Foley's book Understanding Capital.

[–]UpsideVII 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

That first paper looks like exactly what I'm looking for, thank you. I'll add it to my reading list. Unfortunately I'm pretty far behind as far as personal reading goes, so I can't comment/pick your brain on the topic right now. Hopefully I can get to it this weekend.

[–]besttrousers 5ポイント6ポイント  (2子コメント)

For a rather short paper on this subject i recommend reading Fred Moseley's reply[1] to Mark Blaug's appraisal of Marxist thought.

For an ostensibly empirical paper, this paper has little-to-no empirics.

[–]TiakoR1 submitter 6ポイント7ポイント  (1子コメント)

It does with the citations. It's a response paper, not an original research paper.

[–]besttrousers 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yeah, but response papers will typically have a graph or a table. You don't just say "I proved this claim in my 1980 paper."

[–]VodkaHazeNot Rcist 35ポイント36ポイント  (103子コメント)

Badx wars!

Also, to respond to /u/The_Old_Gentleman, the reason you, as a devout marxist, will cringe coming here is that /r/be actually has a diverse heterogenous set of political ideologies living together here. We're identifying as a group as fans of good economics. Some people let their personal ideology seep through in discussion threads!

This is quite unlike /r/bss where the being of the political left can be labeled as a hegemonic structure.

[–]usrname42thank 34ポイント35ポイント  (9子コメント)

[–]roboczarcan't get no satisficing 11ポイント12ポイント  (0子コメント)

Stop trying to drive me and /u/espressoself apart

[–]probablyaname 7ポイント8ポイント  (3子コメント)

This is, unlike the discussion prompting this thread, good /r/badeconomics.

[–]uvwaex 6ポイント7ポイント  (2子コメント)

I come to r/badecon for the underground memes first, and the good Econ second

[–]probablyaname 5ポイント6ポイント  (1子コメント)

If I had to rank it'd be i) the surprisingly touchy, and emotionally charged encounters with the heterodox-kind (basically the drama), ii) memes, iii) people shitting on Webby, iv) then economic discussion.

[–]Viol33In the long run, we're all archived and cannot be upvoted 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Are you saying banks lend their deposits? You are literally why the holocaust happened.

Literally.

[–]MarginalRevenueHow do you want your stimulus fam? 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

1945 Berlin would have been Krugman's paradise. Think of all the stimulus.

[–]VodkaHazeNot Rcist 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

You're a quick memer

[–]EsoteriColaHell hath no fury like a wumbotarian scorned. 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

Late to the party but here's my contribution.

[–]MyShitsFuckedDown3Uphold Marxism-Wumboism[S] 10ポイント11ポイント  (0子コメント)

Alright, I wont lie, that first picture made me laugh my ass off.

[–]The_Old_Gentleman 41ポイント42ポイント  (40子コメント)

Also, to respond to /u/The_Old_Gentleman , the reason you, as a devout marxist, will cringe coming here is that /r/be actually has a diverse heterogenous set of political ideologies living together here.

I'm not a Marxist never mind a "devout" one, and i usually don't pay much heed to the political positions being taken up here. What annoys me is that every time i read the word "Marx" in any context it is usually followed by a lot of misinformation and generally really poor analyses of very serious subjects - and as someone who has actually studied these subjects in depth this is really disheartening. I could spend an entire fucking day discussing everything i find to be shitty in "Marxism" as a tradition and detailing what fundamental aspects of Marx's original work i think he took a wrong turn, but when the standard for commentary on "Marx's mistakes" here can acceptably reach the level of "He literally Stalin and was into central planning!", i feel like banging my head against copies of Das Kapital.

Being fans of good economics doesn't give anyone a free pass to say stupid stuff about sociology or history or philosophy or political science or even the history of political economy.

[–]Subotangender gap guru 31ポイント32ポイント  (5子コメント)

There's not really much understanding here on badecon that Marxism is a complete theory of how to approach the social sciences, whereas despite our recent imperialism, economics remains rooted in its own domain. There are a lot of questions Marx engages with that economics simply can't address as a unified whole (eg a theory of historical development, the relations between "base" and "superstructure", the arguable role of cultural hegemony in maintaining power relations), and knocking down Marx's economic pin on the basis of the Soviet totalitarianism (which really is a different bowling lane) isn't exactly a full strike.

And I say that as committed anti-Marxist. Academics in economics would benefit from a serious introduction to Marx, not in the "Let's build an alternative to neoliberalism!" way, but as something for them to cut their teeth on so they can truly understand why it's wrong.

[–]he3-1 10ポイント11ポイント  (4子コメント)

neoliberalism

Did you just use neoliberalism unironically in relation to economics?

[–]popartisartthrowaway 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

OK, but at this point I want a serious answer, do people really still think that there isn't such a theory of political economy as neoliberalism? Not an economic theory obviously, but a theory of political economy.

[–]Lord_TreasurerDebt Deflation Strikes Back 7ポイント8ポイント  (1子コメント)

I'm pretty sure everybody here who uses the term understands that it refers to a broad set of ideas.

The problem is that the word 'neoliberal' is too broad to be useful in serious discussions about policy, and is usually used by people looking to score cheap political points than engage in serious economic discussion.

[–]popartisartthrowaway 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Certainly in terms of public policy it probably isn't very often helpful for many economists, but there are plenty of discussions in which it's a useful term. And the scope of this conversation is certainly wider than just what (mainstream) economists deal with.

[–]Subotangender gap guru 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Was hypothetically quoting someone who might actually use that term in such an unironic way.

[–]MyShitsFuckedDown3Uphold Marxism-Wumboism[S] 20ポイント21ポイント  (2子コメント)

Being fans of good economics doesn't give anyone a free pass to say stupid stuff about sociology or history or philosophy or political science or even the history of political economy.

You haven't watched enough YouTube videos comrade. I hear Stephan Molyneux gives you a full analysis of Karl Marx comparable to that of an American university education.

[–]The_Old_Gentleman 12ポイント13ポイント  (0子コメント)

Ah, Uphold the Revolutionary Science of Molyneuxism-Akkadism-Thunderf00tism!

[–]rambull2000ancrap 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

He gives me the full analysis to smash my head on a wall!

[–]kajimeiko 2ポイント3ポイント  (20子コメント)

Just curious, if you are not a marxist but are a socialist, what type of socialist would you describe yourself as/ what political philosophy do you subscribe to in general?

[–]The_Old_Gentleman 3ポイント4ポイント  (19子コメント)

I'm an anarchist (a proponent of synthesis anarchism and of anarchism with out adjectives in particular) and a libertarian socialist in general.

[–]kajimeiko 5ポイント6ポイント  (18子コメント)

I ask out of curiosity because I see you mod r/socialism - do you feel more aligned with socialism as per expressed in that community rather than anarchism as expressed in the r/anarchism sub?

[–]The_Old_Gentleman 10ポイント11ポイント  (17子コメント)

I was made a wikimod of /r/socialism by MSFD during a shitty mod crisis that happened some months ago and never really bothered to ask for full permissions or more mod powers. /r/socialism is full of all sorts of different tendencies and never has any clear 'dominant' tendency (sometimes it seems full of nothing but anarchists and trotskyists, the next day it's full social-democrat and #feelingthebern, the next day i'll waste my free time arguing against tankies, etc) so it's hard to feel particularly "aligned" with that community, and i think it goes with out saying that i feel more aligned with /r/anarchism.

[–]rambull2000ancrap 12ポイント13ポイント  (2子コメント)

It's pretty annoying when /r/socialism gets to those stages when they're defending Stalin and Mao, even their bad actions.

[–]Up_to_11 8ポイント9ポイント  (1子コメント)

Tankies to the left of me, tankies to the right....

[–]popartisartthrowaway 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

Here I am, stuck on the Moscva with you-ou-ou

[–]kajimeiko 5ポイント6ポイント  (2子コメント)

ok thank you. Do you believe the DoTP is a viable concept?

[–]The_Old_Gentleman 11ポイント12ポイント  (1子コメント)

Depends on how you define it. If by "dictatorship of the proletariat" you simply mean the general idea of the working class having the power to transform social relationships like left-communists usually describe then i think it may be a viable if terribly named concept. If by "dictatorship of the proletariat" you refer to the concept of a "worker's State" or to the Bolshevik idea of the power of the proletariat being "represented" by a political authority that has it's own gendarmes and other literally dictatorial political institutions, then no way in hell.

[–]kajimeiko 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Thank you for the clear answer.

[–]MyShitsFuckedDown3Uphold Marxism-Wumboism[S] -1ポイント0ポイント  (10子コメント)

You're still my favorite <3

[–]kajimeiko 3ポイント4ポイント  (9子コメント)

If you would be kind enough to give a reply, I believe you wrote this statement in a previous thread ppl here are referring to, and I would like to ask you what you mean:

Marxism and Critical Theory are in opposition to postmodernism.

I can see the logic of Marxism in some sense being opposed to postmodernism but I don't follow how people coming out of the frankfurt school of influence (crit theory) like foucault, lyotard, derrida, baudrillard are opposed to post modernism. Aren't some of these people both critical theorists and post-modernists?

[–]popartisartthrowaway 5ポイント6ポイント  (6子コメント)

Popping it to say that I don't think it's helpful to think of Foucault or Derrida as being especially beholden to the Frankfurt School or Critical Theory at all. Both advance analyses and tools for analyses that are in complete opposition to the Marxian principles that underpin the Frankfurt School and (sort of) Critical Theory. So they're less opposed to post-modernism than they are to the Critical Theorists and Frankfurt School.

Baudrillard and Lyotard are a bit different because they're trying to advance analyses specifically of their contemporary societies, but they're still their own thing.

Generally I think that you can note that those thinkers have thought that is sometimes situated similarly to Critical Theorists in the sense of being "critique", and sometimes they're even called small-c critical theorists, but it isn't really helpful to think of them as coming first and foremost out of critical theory.

[–]kajimeiko 1ポイント2ポイント  (5子コメント)

as being especially beholden to the Frankfurt School or Critical Theory at all. Both advance analyses and tools for analyses that are in complete opposition to the Marxist principles that underpin the Frankfurt School and (sort of) Critical Theory

I've been told that one can interpret critical theory on the whole as being in some sense essentially anti-Marxist.

[–]MyShitsFuckedDown3Uphold Marxism-Wumboism[S] 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

I can see the logic of Marxism in some sense being opposed to postmodernism but I don't follow how people coming out of the frankfurt school of influence (crit theory) like foucault, lyotard, derrida, baudrillard are opposed to post modernism. Aren't some of these people both critical theorists and post-modernists?

Frankfurt school or Frankfurt school "of influence". These are two different things. The Frankfurt School of Critical Theory was, and arguably still is, opposed to postmodernist movements within social science. Those influenced by the Frankfurt School can be all over the spectrum. Foucault can, arguably, interpreted as inverting Adorno, for example.

[–]SolarAquarion"The political implications of full employment" 9ポイント10ポイント  (1子コメント)

No wars but the badx wars.

[–]slugwindAngry toucan funded by $hillary 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

Now we see the violence inherent in the system!

[–]wumbotarianfenance 18ポイント19ポイント  (49子コメント)

Some people let their personal ideology seep through in discussion threads!

Or, Marxian economics is bad economics at worst and not-economics at best (many Marxists don't really care about the same questions mainstream economists care about).

This is quite unlike /r/bss where the being of the political left can be labeled as a hegemonic structure.

One would expect that - since economics is a social science - bss would be anti Marxian economics.

[–]SolarAquarion"The political implications of full employment" 1ポイント2ポイント  (48子コメント)

Marxian economics is economics. Because you chose not to read people like Baran and Sweezy doesn't mean that they're bad. It's a subjective bad. Marx is the basis of a lot of social sciences and ideas

[–]wumbotarianfenance 27ポイント28ポイント  (33子コメント)

Marxian economics is economics.

As is Austrian economics!

Because you chose not to read people like Baran and Sweezy doesn't mean that they're bad.

I've not read Hayek on macro but I've read Garrison. Hayek is bad macro.

It's a subjective bad.

Here's a good heuristic in economics - if someone or something is published in high ranked journals, it's probably good economics (probably) or contributed heavily to future good economics (like Kydland and Prescott laying the foundations of DSGEs).

Marx is the basis of a lot of social sciences and ideas

No doubt! He's an important figure in the history of economics. So is Hayek. That doesn't mean they're right (nor their derivatives or followers).

[–]edprescott 36ポイント37ポイント  (0子コメント)

Here's a good heuristic in economics - if someone or something is published in high ranked journals, it's probably good economics (probably) or contributed heavily to future good economics (like Kydland and Prescott laying the foundations of DSGEs).

hiss hiss.

it's probably good economics or contributed heavily to future good economics

hisss?

good or future good

HISSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS

[–]Webby912 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Here's a good heuristic in economics - if someone or something is published in high ranked

When Wumbo admits I am the 2nd best Jr. economist on BE because NU.

[–]SolarAquarion"The political implications of full employment" 2ポイント3ポイント  (7子コメント)

You're arguing from authority? Neat. If you're argument is that then I guess everyone you disagree with is wrong and bad. You should be free to ignore everything that isn't from the top 20 econ journals or posters that don't get their knowledge from them.

[–]besttrousers 27ポイント28ポイント  (0子コメント)

You should be free to ignore everything that isn't from the top 20 econ journals or posters that don't get their knowledge from them.

Given opportunity cost of time, I think this is a useful heuristic.

[–]gorbachev 13ポイント14ポイント  (1子コメント)

You should be free to ignore everything that isn't from the top 20 econ journals

Watch out folks, the heterodox types are finally catching on to what we do.

Well, it's more like top 5 + pertinent top field journals + this or that source of WPs. But whatever.

[–]SolarAquarion"The political implications of full employment" 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

That's true too. 20 out of 100 etc.

[–]wumbotarianfenance 16ポイント17ポイント  (3子コメント)

You're arguing from authority?

I mean, yeah. That's how economics works, or any science really. The experts know stuff, publish stuff and lay down what is economics.

It doesn't mean others are wrong. It means others who think they're right need to come up to the same level as experts - publish in top journals.

You should be free to ignore everything that isn't from the top 20 econ journals or posters that don't get their knowledge from them.

I don't ignore, I am just unconvinced when people cite economists who are published in bad journals like the QJAE.

[–]SolarAquarion"The political implications of full employment" 12ポイント13ポイント  (2子コメント)

Is the quarterly journal of economics a trusted source? Because Paul Sweezy put his articles there

[–]wumbotarianfenance 10ポイント11ポイント  (1子コメント)

QJE certainly is, yes.

[–]SolarAquarion"The political implications of full employment" 9ポイント10ポイント  (0子コメント)

Also the AER

[–]TheBraveTroll -2ポイント-1ポイント  (22子コメント)

Here's a good heuristic in economics - if someone or something is published in high ranked journals, it's probably good economics (probably) or contributed heavily to future good economics (like Kydland and Prescott laying the foundations of DSGEs).

...You mean like Hayek...?

I'm astounded that anyone would put Hayek anywhere near Marx; it's laughable at best.

[–]wumbotarianfenance 17ポイント18ポイント  (0子コメント)

Hayek very much influenced economics.

[–]he3-1 23ポイント24ポイント  (20子コメント)

I'm astounded that anyone would put Hayek anywhere near Marx; it's laughable at best.

  • Marx = Contributed nothing at all to the field
  • Hayek = Price as information

[–]MyShitsFuckedDown3Uphold Marxism-Wumboism[S] -2ポイント-1ポイント  (15子コメント)

You're in confrontation with most historians of economic thought then. To quote Mark Blaug, an anti-Marxist his entire career:

"It has become popular to say that Marx was no mere economist but an all-round social scientist who integrated economics, sociology, political science, history, and even anthropology; there are hundreds of books about Marx that hardly even mention his economic ideas. But Marx wrote no more than a dozen pages on the concept of social class, the theory of the state, and the materialist conception of history. He did write literally 10,000 pages on economics pure and simple; economics was the only social science which he professed to have mastered in all its aspects. And let there be no doubt, he was a great economist. Even if we reject the fundamental Marxist schema and many, if not all, of his central conclusions, the three volumes of Capital, and particularly the second two contain a large number of remarkable pieces of analysis from which modern economists can still learn: the growth of large scale enterprise, the separation of ownership and control this entails, the functional role of unemployment as a method of disciplining workers under capitalism, the significance of changes in money wages in the course of the business cycle, the inherent periodicity of the business cycle, the nature of technical progress -- the list could be extended indefinitely. We even get some modern growth theory, albeit of a simple kind. Marx is still worth reading. Yes, he is difficult, very difficult, but he is also rewarding as he explores an avenue or line of thought strictly for its own sake; at those moments, he revels like Ricardo or Walras in the abstract power of economic reasoning." - Mark Blaug, Great Economists Before Keynes.

[–]kohatsootsich 12ポイント13ポイント  (5子コメント)

You're in confrontation with most historians of economic thought then.

Most of history has adopted Marxist methods. Of course they're not going to say that their master was not great at his favorite subject.

Being a historian of ideas probably makes you much more likely to over-emphasize someone like Marx, who looms large over the fields of history or sociology. It's pretty clear that the quotation you give is the result of someone feeling obliged to show a well-respected figure due deference to avoid ridicule by his peers. The claim that Marx wrote no more than a dozen pages about political theory is particularly ridiculous, and seriously discredits the quote.

Even serious scholars are not immune to social conditioning. Lots of historians of science would probably name da Vinci as an important figure in the history of mechanics, and sure enough his production was huge. But the truth is his real influence today is absolutely minimal. Most of what he wrote or sketched was wrong, with a few clever exceptions, and there is not a theorem, observation or experiment due to da Vinci in any modern book. The same is true of Marx and modern economics, with the exception of books by self-professed Marxists.

[–]orthaeus 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

Ask any historian and 98% of the time they think Marx is a ludicrously bad historian. I really wouldn't bet on historians holding Marx's rope, we're notoriously willing to cut him off and let him drown.

[–]MyShitsFuckedDown3Uphold Marxism-Wumboism[S] -1ポイント0ポイント  (3子コメント)

Being a historian of ideas probably makes you much more likely to over-emphasize someone like Marx, who looms large over the fields of history or sociology. It's pretty clear that the quotation you give is the result of someone feeling obliged to show a well-respected figure due deference to avoid ridicule by his peers.

This is just an assumption without merit. Considering Blaug spilled a lot of ink arguing against Marxian economics I doubt this assumption is true. See his "Methodological Appraisal of Marxian economics".

The claim that Marx wrote no more than a dozen pages about political theory is particularly ridiculous, and seriously discredits the quote.

This is a bit adorable. I'd pat you on the head if I could. Blaug's point is that Marx's writing on economic theory vastly outweighs his writing on most other sociological topics and should be weighed on those terms. Which is the terms someone like /u/he3-1 want to view it. Can we get some consistency of criticism here?

It's one thing to say X is wrong because Y. But /r/be seems to be throwing alphabet soup at the topic simply to defend someone like Wumbo. This is sad.

Even serious scholars are not immune to social conditioning. Lots of historians of science would probably name da Vinci as an important figure in the history of mechanics, and sure enough his production was huge. But the truth is his real influence today is absolutely minimal. Most of what he wrote or sketched was wrong, with a few clever exceptions, and there is not a theorem, observation or experiment due to da Vinci in any modern book. The same is true of Marx and modern economics, with the exception of books by self-professed Marxists.

Take that up with /u/he3-1. I'm not opposed to that characterization in general, in terms of mainstream theory.

[–]besttrousers 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

mal. Most of what he wrote or sketched was wrong, with a few clever exceptions, and there is not a theorem, observation or experiment due to da Vinci in any modern book. The same is true of Marx and modern economics, with the exception of books by self-professed Marxists.

Take that up with /u/he3-1.

Note that /u/he3-1's arugment was:

As a historical figure Marx was clearly important, as an economist Marx was totally irrelevant. Marx, nor anyone inspired by Marx, wrote anything that improved our understanding of economics.

While I am sure this is not true of some of the other social sciences, eradicating Marx from history would have no impact on economics. Our understanding of the field would not change, the work that was important to field would still be completed etc.

These are parallel arguments.

[–]kohatsootsich 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

This is just an assumption without merit. Considering Blaug spilled a lot of ink arguing against Marxian economics I doubt this assumption is true. See his "Methodological Appraisal of Marxian economics".

I'm not so sure. If you wish to be taken seriously in the social sciences, you cannot wholly dismiss Marx like, say, Einstein's claims that black holes cannot form or Newton's confused ideas about fluids are now dismissed without further comment.

The fact that Blaugh would bother to painstakingly write the (umpteenth) commentary, however critical, of someone who died a century earlier is indicative of great respect. No historian would have taken this work seriously if the criticism hadn't been balanced by the customary praise for the great man. Or if, as would most people with some understanding of economics as it is today, he had substituted for the entire work the sentence "Nothing to see here. "

This is a bit adorable. I'd pat you on the head if I could. Blaug's point is that Marx's writing on economic theory vastly outweighs his writing on most other sociological topics and should be weighed on those terms. Which is the terms someone like /u/he3-1 want to view it. Can we get some consistency of criticism here?

I think Marx wrote a lot about economics and a lot about political theory. He didn't really separate the two, as is obvious from the economic discussion in a lot of his less technical stuff like German Ideology (I confess I did not finish that book) and conversely the broad historical and political scope of Kapital. My point is he thought that his economics illuminates his political theory.

But the economics appears seriously deficient, and this necessarily contaminates the political theory and everything else. To what extent, I don't know, and honestly no one has been able to explain to me why his mistakes don't matter in the end. I just think the willingness by people who clearly don't understand economics to ignore them to salvage the ideological consequences they find agreeable is troubling.

This tolerance, although not unheard of (see my comment about the wild praise da Vinci gets for supposed contributions outside of his main talents as an artist and astute technical drawer) is deeply suspicious to me. And that's precisely because my knowledge of the history of hard sciences has shown how heavily ideological loyalties and preconceptions can weigh even in controversies that are much easier to disentangle, because we can do experiments, long after conclusive arguments for one side have been presented.

I don't have the time or expertise to judge his true importance in the social sciences, but my conversations with academic Marxists have done little to diminish my suspicion, partly because of their very weak technical understanding of economics, real or Marxian. To be fair, you and other redditors like /u/The_Old_Gentleman considerably raise the bar.

It's one thing to say X is wrong because Y. But /r/beseems to be throwing alphabet soup at the topic simply to defend someone like Wumbo. This is sad.

Perhaps now you get a sense of how I feel about people stepping over each other to defend every sentence Marx has ever uttered. There's nothing wrong with that per se, but it's a little odd that no army comes out of the woodwork to defend Sombart or Quesnay from their mistakes. People just accept they might have been wrong and that's the end of it.

[–]he3-1 16ポイント17ポイント  (8子コメント)

As a historical figure Marx was clearly important, as an economist Marx was totally irrelevant. Marx, nor anyone inspired by Marx, wrote anything that improved our understanding of economics.

While I am sure this is not true of some of the other social sciences, eradicating Marx from history would have no impact on economics. Our understanding of the field would not change, the work that was important to field would still be completed etc.

Edit: For comparison sake I would consider Rothtard to be as important as Marx to the field. Both originated schools of "economics" that offer nothing back to the field and were as such dead ends.

[–]roboczarcan't get no satisficing 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

The tendency of the rate of profit to fall was an idea unique to Marx, and it is real. Marx was wrong about the implications, but identifying the phenomenon in a theoretical manner was very helpful for economics as a whole.

[–]besttrousers 6ポイント7ポイント  (1子コメント)

What? Piketty specifically discusses how his data shows that the rate of profit isnt falling.

[–]MyShitsFuckedDown3Uphold Marxism-Wumboism[S] -1ポイント0ポイント  (4子コメント)

This is just getting to be flagrant bad history of economic theory. Apparently figures like Schumpter, Keynes, and Sweet don't exist. And that's just the early 20th century.

[–]he3-1 9ポイント10ポイント  (3子コメント)

Keynes found nothing of value in Marx' work, from his 1935 correspondence with Shaw;

But I’ve made another shot at old K.[arl] M.[arx] last week, reading the Marx-Engels correspondence just published, without making much progress. I prefer Engels of the two. I can see that they invented a certain method of carrying on and a vile manner of writing, both of which their successors have maintained with fidelity. But if you tell me that they discovered a clue to the economic riddle, still I am beaten – I can discover nothing but out-of-date controversialising.

What undisclosed influence do you believe exists? What hypothesis did Marx postulate which was a foundation for future mainstream work?

On the headline topic beyond Hayek's direct economic contributions his role at LSE (as well as that of Knight at UC) in the first neoclassical schools were important in shaping Keynes ideas as well as encouraging him to challenge the emerging orthodoxy. From an economic theory standpoint Hayek actually improved the field and from an economic history standpoint Hayek influenced others to improve the field.

[–][削除されました]  (3子コメント)

[deleted]

    [–]he3-1 21ポイント22ポイント  (2子コメント)

    Unless Marx invented time travel no, Kapital was published decades after the first theories of marginalism.

    [–]besttrousers 12ポイント13ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Wow! I didn't realize Marx could travel through time!!!

    I recant Samuelson and all his works!!!

    [–]SolarAquarion"The political implications of full employment" 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

    In terms of Jevons, Menger and Walras

    [–]TheBraveTroll 7ポイント8ポイント  (12子コメント)

    doesn't mean that they're bad. It's a subjective bad.

    ...what?

    [–][削除されました]  (11子コメント)

    [deleted]

      [–]he3-1 18ポイント19ポイント  (9子コメント)

      Replace bad with wrong. Marxian economics is objectively wrong.

      [–]SolarAquarion"The political implications of full employment" 6ポイント7ポイント  (8子コメント)

      Is it wrong because of the LTV or is it wrong because everything

      [–]he3-1 19ポイント20ポイント  (2子コメント)

      Most of Marxist "economics" is philosophy not economics, the two actual economic theories that have been advanced (LTV and Marxian theory of money) are wrong.

      [–]SolarAquarion"The political implications of full employment" 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

      How about Nobuo Okishio. In terms of his mathematical reworking of marx

      [–]WorldOfthisLordWe can change our flair now, right? 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

      What about the tendency of the rate of profit to fall?

      [–]kohatsootsich 12ポイント13ポイント  (4子コメント)

      I've asked this before elsewhere, but I am not sure I got a satisfactory response. Suppose LTV is irreparably wrong, what remains of Kapital, parts 1-5? Everything in there is formulated in terms of time of production and surplus value, which come directly out of LTV.

      The feeling a lot of people "interested in economics" have when reading Marxists is that they seem willing to go through all sorts of contortions to show how Marx was "actually right".

      A frequent complaint of convinced Marxists is that people put "too much emphasis on LTV" and this is very revealing. If the first 50-100 pages of a research monograph by a famous contemporary economist/statistician/physicist/psychiatrist were based on a rotten premise, hardly anyone would come to their rescue to claim that actually it was all right. They would be ignored until they fixed the mistake. Similarly, we know Euclid, Gallileo, Boltzmann, Newton made mistakes. They are widely acknowledged and understood to be serious mistakes. There's no way around it.

      Book II of Newton's Principia is packed with errors. That's why no one talks about it. That's why Hawking left it out of his anthology of classics of physics, and why Chandrasekhar left it out of his commentary. No serious scientist would spend years trying to prove that, despite the obscurities and apparent misconceptions, Newton really was right and the book is a masterpiece. It doesn't matter that Newton was perhaps one of the greatest geniuses to have ever lived, and that this is obvious from Book II despite all its flaws. It's still mostly wrong.

      For Marx, no matter how much evidence you stack up against LTV, there's always some Marxist theorist ready to claim that actually he was right all along, and if you don't understand it you must be brainwashed by neoliberalism.

      [–]SolarAquarion"The political implications of full employment" 4ポイント5ポイント  (2子コメント)

      That's why people like Joan Robinson dropped it

      [–]rp20 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

      What do you think of this response? http://stumblingandmumbling.typepad.com/stumbling_and_mumbling/2016/05/bad-arguments-against-marxism.html

      I'm not sure how to interpret the papers that he links to that show some validity of LTV but I want a second opinion.

      [–]werdya 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

      Semantics. Replace good with 'accurate explanation of' and bad with 'inaccurate explanation of'.

      [–]he3-1 11ポイント12ポイント  (0子コメント)

      Marxian economics is economics.

      No its not, in precisely the same way the bible is not biology or medicine. Or indeed Time Cube is not physics.

      Simply because a bunch of people claim what they are writing is economics does not make it so.

      [–]The_Old_Gentleman 8ポイント9ポイント  (0子コメント)

      The oppressive dictatorship of /u/AutoModerator would kick me out in case i made this reply in the Silver Discussion Sticky where the original post i intend to reply to was made, so instead i'll just highlight it here.

      I could care less that a bunch of lefties make fun of me. They're probably bad economics, which ironically makes them bad social science. [...] I hope you spend this holiday weekend being something other than buttmad that someone dare suggest that Marx is not cared about as an economist.

      God damn it /u/wumbotarian, just think for a moment.

      This whole ridiculous ordeal started because you kept fucking making comments about Marxism - comments which involved this school's broad influence upon sociology, political science and on the history of political economy - that were full of wrong. People then called you out on your being wrong - it's what the bad-academics meta-subs do, it's our entire raison d'être.

      If you as an economist are sooo disinterested in Marxist thought, then fucking stop talking about it. Neither me nor /u/MyShitsFuckedDown3 actually think you have any particular interest in learning about Marx nor do we particularly care who does around here, but it's the case you said stupid stuff, you have been called out on it, and we all should learn from that and move the fuck on. It's shouldn't be anything personal and it shouldn't be a big fucking deal, everyone says stupid stuff and gets called out on from time to time.

      My main preoccupation when arguing about Marx in this sub has never been to "convince" any of you of the glorious scientific character of the TSSI (which is still a subject i'm studying) over mainstream econ or of the political merits of anarchism but has always been to dispel prevalent misconceptions about Marx's work and like maybe make some of you learn something you may find interesting about the social science that Marx influenced (i mean, social scientists should be into social science, right?). Hell, if you wanted to be acquainted with actually good critiques of Marx since you are so passionate in being anti-Marxist, i could even link you up to several of them. But since i can't seem to have that effect on you, i hope that at least you would stop constantly voicing your opinion about subjects that you openly declare you don't want to know much about. It's kind of weird that someone who constantly asserts that Marx doesn't matter can't stop talking about Marx.

      [–]neshalchandermanIt is a mighty joke, is it not? 23ポイント24ポイント  (26子コメント)

      The fuck?

      Wumbo's strawmanning comments are bad but this shit by /u/jesuskebab is an acceptable r1/r3?

      "Capitalists left behind a school of thought that was responsible for colonial exploitation, chattel slavery, and millions of deaths - but that school of thought is ever changing!" It's hilarious watching BE users froth at the mouth whitewashing the disasters of capitalism because it's either 1. not real capitalism (because it's really mercantilism, or some such) and/or 2. capitalism 150 years ago is not the same as capitalism today.

      [–]The_Old_Gentleman 23ポイント24ポイント  (23子コメント)

      I think /u/jesuskebab's reply has problems too, but it happens to be the case that pro-capitalist traditions of political economy did actually play a significant role legitimizing certain colonial policies which had disastrous results. For example, jesuskebab directly mentioned that arguments in favor of "laissez-faire" liberalism and arguments about the need to maintain private enterprise functioning were used by Trevelyan and his allies when determining the British approach to the Irish potato famine (which, as you know, resulted in the deaths of many Irish people). In the book Late Victorian Holocausts the historian Mike Davis explores how liberal-capitalist ideology played a role in legitimizing several massacres and famines the British Empire was to blame for: "Millions died, not outside the 'modern world system', but in the very process of being forcibly incorporated into its economic and political structures. They died in the golden age of Liberal Capitalism; indeed, many were murdered [...] by the theological application of the sacred principles of Smith, Bentham and Mill."

      This is all a bit besides the point. In this discussion a certain camp wants to argue that socialism is an ideology that is causally to blame for a lot of horror, while virtually identical horrible stuff happening under capitalism is not to blame on it because "capitalism" somehow isn't a specific ideology. This argument, which seeks to have it's cake and eat it too, ignores the socialist reply that capitalist relations of production did provide certain states and private institutions with the economic and political impetus to cause these horrors (Leopold II of Belgium did treat the Congo as his private property in search of profit, after all) much like economic and political conditions provided these allegedly "socialist" countries with the impetus to commit horrors (Stalin's Russia did forcefully collectivize agriculture in Ukraine with the intention of exporting to finance quick industrialization, after all); and that many notable "pro-capitalist" ideologues came to the defense of these horrors committed by capitalist states by discussing them as a matter of boosting profits or keeping the free flow of commerce or even "protecting private property" (the favorite argument of 3rd world latifundia when they hire pistoleros to murder land reform and indigenous activists).

      Cue to Slavoj Žižek:

      Our blindness to the results of systemic violence is perhaps most clearly perceptible in debates about communist crimes. Responsibility for communist crimes is easy to allocate: we are dealing with subjective evil, with agents who did wrong. We can even identify the ideological sources of the crimes- totalitarian ideology, The Communist Manifesto, Rousseau, even Plato. But when one draws attention to the millions who died as a the result of capitalist globalization, from the tragedy of Mexico in the 16th century through to the Belgian Congo holocaust a century ago, responsibility is largely denied. All this seems just to have happened as the result of an ‘objective’ process, which nobody planned and executed and for which there was no ‘Capitalist Manifesto."

      So wumbo's anti-socialist argumentation is extremely disingenuous: It starts off by washing capitalism's hand's clean of any wrong-doing by defining them (and even defining "capitalism" itself) out of existence. It proposes the thesis that "capitalism does nothing wrong" and makes sure it is an unfalsifiable thesis (ironic given how wumbo makes this argument often but also is a huge fan of Popper's philosophy of science), and jesuskebab's reply while faulty did point to this very serious issue with it.

      [–]ucstruct 23ポイント24ポイント  (8子コメント)

      But when one draws attention to the millions who died as a the result of capitalist globalization, from the tragedy of Mexico in the 16th century through to the Belgian Congo holocaust a century ago, responsibility is largely denied

      Under what possible standard would 16th century Spain been considered capitalist or even proto-capitalist? Because it was expansionary? If you use this standard, you could call any empire throughout history capitalist.

      Belgium was at least industrialized, so maybe that might make sense, but the state it created was a monarchy with state owned land, heavy restrictions on trade, and state set prices.

      [–]The_Old_Gentleman 2ポイント3ポイント  (5子コメント)

      or even proto-capitalist

      Colonialism in the 16th and 17th centuries was stimulated by the growth of the world market and of merchant's capital, and was a cornerstone of the process of primitive accumulation. The tragedy in Mexico in the 16th century was not carried out by a full-fledged capitalist nation but was carried out by the process of transition to capitalism, and can reasonably be ascribed to capitalist globalization.

      But anyway, even if Žižek did use an inaccurate example, this does not detract from the main point. He could have substituted the example of Mexico in the 16th century for many known cases of Western imperialism from 1850 to 1945 (particularly the Late Victorian Holocausts) and the point would have stood just the same.

      [–]ucstruct 1ポイント2ポイント  (4子コメント)

      The tragedy in Mexico in the 16th century was not carried out by a full-fledged capitalist nation but was carried out by the process of transition to capitalism, and can reasonably be ascribed to capitalist globalization.

      I don't know if I buy this argument, what examples were there that Spain was transitioning to capitalism at all at this time? More so than say Ming China or the Ottoman empire, because they funded sailing expeditions? I buy the argument of 16th century Venice or maybe in parts of Spanish controlled Netherlands (which honestly would make a much better argument later in their history).

      [–]The_Old_Gentleman 2ポイント3ポイント  (3子コメント)

      I don't know if I buy this argument, what examples were there that Spain was transitioning to capitalism at all at this time?

      The transition wasn't undergone by "Spain" alone (which saw it's development grind to a halt when it was overshadowed by other empires) but by Europe as a whole, and trade routes and colonies established by Spain were important early milestones in the process. The era of merchant capitalism (the earliest form of international capitalism before there was capitalist production) was opened when the Europeans discovered of the Americas and established early colonies - a process pioneered by Portugal and Spain. For example: The Atlantic triangular trade (slaves were bought or captured in Africa, then sold to American colonies in exchange of sugar-cane, gold, silver or coffee) was spearheaded by Spain and Portugal as a merchant capitalist trade made to prop up colonial corporations and early on could see rates of profit of 6000%, other empires would soon join in the trade (the capitalist Dutch Republic even tried to take Brazil's richest colonies from Portugal, and succeeded for a while).

      It is these merchant profits made by European monarchies, following practices inaugurated by Spain and Portugal, which would be used to finance early capitalist production and large-scale manufacture in Europe once the obstacles to them - serfdom, guilds and mercantile monopolies - had been abolished and surviving common lands expropriated (these social changes, necessary for the further development of capitalist production after global trade and finance were established, were pioneered by the Netherlands, Britain and France). Spain and Portugal's supremacy didn't last long, they declined quite hard as the Netherlands became the chief capitalist nation in the 17th century, and later the British and French Empires would steal the scene for themselves. The era of primitive accumulation and with it real capitalist production "begins with the revolt of the Netherlands from Spain".

      What sets apart Ming China's and Ottoman sailing expeditions from Spain, Portugal, Netherlands and Britain is that they did not colonize the rest of Asia and join in the merchant trade the same way Europeans had done, nor did they carry out primitive accumulation in their own population - retaining their pre-capitalist forms of economy. China would later become victim of colonialism and primitive accumulation in the Opium wars.

      [–]ucstruct 4ポイント5ポイント  (2子コメント)

      What sets apart Ming China's and Ottoman sailing expeditions from Spain, Portugal, Netherlands and Britain is that they did not colonize the rest of Asia and join in the merchant trade the same way Europeans had done, nor did they carry out primitive accumulation in their own population - retaining their pre-capitalist forms of economy.

      Yeah, the Ottomans did it over land and China had done it centuries before (and had it done to them during the fall of the Ming), but it was still imperial expansion and I'm failing to see how that was wildly different from what Spain and Portugal began to do. Its because it was over water? What set apart their societies from other empires? England, Venice, and the Netherlands had all or some of the following: joint stock companies, forms of risk management, and rights protecting property as well as a rising middle class (and a landed gentry in England) which reshaped their society, but what about this at all parallels Spain and Portugal? They conquered land? Every empire did that.

      For example: The Atlantic triangular trade (slaves were bought or captured in Africa, then sold to American colonies in exchange of sugar-cane, gold, silver or coffee) was spearheaded by Spain and Portugal as a merchant capitalist trade made to prop up colonial corporations

      This is a little bit of a stretch, these aren't firms in the modern sense of the word (which really were born in the mid 19th century) but were decreed by royal charter. You keep making the case that mercantilist systems with a monarch at their head that controlled everything they did are capitalist when that is so far from what we take as a meaning of capitalism.

      [–]The_Old_Gentleman 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

      This is extremely disingenuous, these aren't firms in the modern sense of the word (which really were born in the mid 19th century) but were decreed by royal charter. You keep making the case that mercantilist systems with a monarch at their head that controlled everything they did are capitalist when that is so far from what we take as a meaning of capitalism.

      They weren't firms in the modern sense, but the firms that developed in the 19th century developed under economic and political conditions that were developed by these earlier colonial ventures. The 18th century banks established in Liverpool and Manchester were directly related to the triangular trade, British textile firms bought cotton that was picked by slaves or farmed in colonies that had at first been established by slaves.

      You mean mercantilism.

      Mercantilism was not a mode of production by itself, but the dominant economic policy during a particular early period of capitalist development, which was merchant capitalism. This period saw the growth of international commerce, the ascendance of a capitalist class and the beginnings of primitive accumulation and wage-labor meanwhile feudal, guild and slave modes of production still predominated in Europe and it's colonies. Mercantilism was ultimately a terrible policy which had to be overthrown (together with the guilds and with serfdom) before capitalist production could truly blossom, but it's history is not divorced from the history of capitalism, it played an significant role both creating the proletariat that capitalist production hires and the capitalists that have the resources to hire them.

      And this isn't "disingenuous", it's been a widely debated topic for a long time. The argument was first made in 1867 in Das Kapital: "The discovery of gold and silver in America, the extirpation, enslavement and entombment in mines of the aboriginal population, the beginning of the conquest and looting of the East Indies, the turning of Africa into a warren for the commercial hunting of black-skins, signalised the rosy dawn of the era of capitalist production. These idyllic proceedings are the chief momenta of primitive accumulation. On their heels treads the commercial war of the European nations, with the globe for a theatre. It begins with the revolt of the Netherlands from Spain, assumes giant dimensions in England’s Anti-Jacobin War, and is still going on in the opium wars against China, &c. The different momenta of primitive accumulation distribute themselves now, more or less in chronological order, particularly over Spain, Portugal, Holland, France, and England. In England at the end of the 17th century, they arrive at a systematical combination, embracing the colonies, the national debt, the modern mode of taxation, and the protectionist system."

      Later non-Marxist (like W.E.B. DuBois, Eric Williams, Walter Rodney and Kwame Nkrumah) and Marxist (Eric Hobsbawm, Ellen Meiksins Woods, E.P. Thompson) historiographers would continue following this line of thought. Capitalism isn't characterized by laissez-faire economic policy, it is characterized by capital accumulation. Mercantilism was the first economic policy which aimed to regulate and control capital accumulation.

      [Of course this subject isn't as clear cut as i'm arguing - there are historians who dispute his narrative (while not entirely denying the important role that colonialism played in influencing the path of economic development in Europe) and even Ellen Meiksins Woods whom i cited IIRC puts more importance on agricultural reforms happening inside Europe than on international colonialism in determining the development of capitalist production. And since we are focusing almost exclusively on the economic policy of mercantilism and on the economic exploitation of the colonies this argument is making the development of capitalism seem economically-deterministic, when reality was much more complex than that. But still, it's an important and respected narrative in the historiography of colonialism. I don't really see much value in continuing this discussion since as i argued it doesn't detract from Žižek's main point - which is about the ideological way in which we discuss the problems caused by capitalist globalization in general]

      [–]ucstruct 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

      but it's history is not divorced from the history of capitalism, it played an significant role both creating the proletariat that capitalist production hires and the capitalists that have the resources to hire them.

      Of course it isnt, but you can say this about tons of other factors too. It's far too simplistic to say that one group at one point had state sponsored trade, expansion, markets, or slavery and then was capitalist or protocapitalist, because hundreds of groups had these factors throughout history.

      Zizek doesn't seem aware of this so whatever his thoughts on the history of capitalism aren't very useful to me. A more coherent argument would involve those areas where modern capitalism took root and the consequences of the idealogy not what a collection of monarchies and empires did through history by tacking on the elements you don't like and linking them to capitalism. It has a lot of flaws, you don't need to stretch to find them.

      [–][削除されました]  (1子コメント)

      [deleted]

        [–]ucstruct 13ポイント14ポイント  (0子コメント)

        That isn't really the definition of a capitalistic system though, you need more than profits. Imperial Rome also profited when it took over Gaul, we don't call it capitalistic though. The Congo Free State is a similarly hard case to make since the Belgian monarchy controlled everything, even though Belgium itself may have had a capitalist economy in some parts.

        [–]wumbotarianfenance 12ポイント13ポイント  (6子コメント)

        Cue to Slavoj Žižek:

        Our blindness to the results of systemic violence is perhaps most clearly perceptible in debates about communist crimes. Responsibility for communist crimes is easy to allocate: we are dealing with subjective evil, with agents who did wrong. We can even identify the ideological sources of the crimes- totalitarian ideology, The Communist Manifesto, Rousseau, even Plato. But when one draws attention to the millions who died as a the result of capitalist globalization, from the tragedy of Mexico in the 16th century through to the Belgian Congo holocaust a century ago, responsibility is largely denied. All this seems just to have happened as the result of an ‘objective’ process, which nobody planned and executed and for which there was no ‘Capitalist Manifesto."

        So wumbo's anti-socialist argumentation is extremely disingenuous: It starts off by washing capitalism's hand's clean of any wrong-doing by defining them (and even defining "capitalism" itself) out of existence. It proposes the thesis that "capitalism does nothing wrong" and makes sure it is an unfalsifiable thesis (ironic given how wumbo makes this argument often but also is a huge fan of Popper's philosophy of science), and jesuskebab's reply while faulty did point to this very serious issue with it.

        As much as I love the ever unhygienic Zizek, this is incredibly unfair.

        I have made no claims about capitalism. None whatsoever (at least here, anyway). I have not said capitalism did this or that. I have not said capitalism didn't do this or that.

        All I claimed was that Marxian thought lead to and supported heinous dictatorships, disastrous (both on an allocation level and a humanitarian one) economic policy and the deaths of millions. There are other communist thinkers but recall this all started when someone said Marxian thought is "evolving" - as if Marxian thought simply took an odd detour, which is why no one takes it seriously. What comes to mind is the odd detour macro took through RBC land. This is, of course, revisionist as Marxist intellectuals actively supported communist Russia and China.

        Now you can argue that XYZ anarchist doesn't like ABC tankie. Good for you. This shows how weak the term "Marxian" is altogether, if you don't even have common ground.

        (I don't think this bothers you because Marxians have an affinity for long, wordy prose. There's little desire for a coherent and succinct framework of Marxian economics.)

        Also, I believe that Marxian "economics" doesn't care about the same economic questions other economists care about. It is simply another form of sociology - from what I've gathered in our conversations.

        Again, Pinochet didn't distribute propaganda of Milton Friedman saying how great neoliberalism is. On the contrary, Marx is everywhere in communist and socialist countries.


        As for whether or not capitalism is colonialism and imperialism. I don't know. The connection leftists like to make is that capitalism has markets and property rights as did countries that were colonial and imperialistic. Therefore, capitalism caused the deaths of millions.

        The counter argument here is trying to tease out what caused these deaths. Was it the use of markers to allocate bread and cars? No, not really - we know markets are really good at allocating scarce resources. Contrast this to central planning (a Marxist idea which comes in many forms both Soviet and anarchist) which we know caused misallocation of resources.

        Is it property rights? Well no property rights incentivize productive activity so probably not. Lack of property rights leads to no incentive to be productive. So it can't be that.

        Then what caused all that death and misery? Well, to borrow from Acemoglu, extractive institutions. We know what caused those institutions in the USSR (Marxian thought) but what caused those institutions in imperialist countries?

        Zizek is right - there is no Capitalist Manifesto. So how does capitalism cause these extractive institutions? Or is it just coincidence that governments had inclusive institutions for the native population but not for those they colonized?

        That's my counter to Zizek's sniffing and nose rubbing. But that's all it is - a counter to his argument. You mistake my willingness to argue against someone who doesn't seem to wash his clothes as holding a belief that capitalism can do no wrong. Personally, I do not care which way you define capitalism. Because terms don't make a good society, good institutions do.

        I just so happen to think Marxists - of all stripes - do not want good institutions.

        [–]ucstruct 11ポイント12ポイント  (2子コメント)

        As for whether or not capitalism is colonialism and imperialism. I don't know.

        The Zizek quote seems to be saying it from the other direction too, that any system that is colonialist and imperialist is by definition capitalist even though they predate capitalism by centuries. That's absurd.

        [–]The_Old_Gentleman 10ポイント11ポイント  (0子コメント)

        As for whether or not capitalism is colonialism and imperialism. I don't know. The connection leftists like to make is that capitalism has markets and property rights as did countries that were colonial and imperialistic. Therefore, capitalism caused the deaths of millions.

        No. The connection that leftist like to make is that capitalist relations of production provide governments and private institutions with the impetus to pursue imperialistic goals. Or, in your own words, the argument is that capitalist institutions are extractive institutions and benefit from establishing ultra-extractive institutions abroad.

        "Capitalism" isn't just a matter of "markets and property rights" - these existed in a million of societies in an enormous myriad of different forms. Feudal Europe had markets and property rights, the Roman Empire had markets and property rights and even rich merchant capitalists, but it lacked a capitalist mode of production. Capitalism is, in the words of historian Ellen Meiksins Woods:

        Capitalism is a system in which goods and services, down to the most basic necessities of life, are produced for profitable exchange, where even human labour-power is a commodity for sale in the market, and where all economic actors are dependent on the market. This is true not only of workers, who must sell their labour-power for a wage, but also of capitalists, who depend on the market to buy their input, including labour-power, and to sell their output for profit. Capitalism differs from other social forms because producers depend on the market for access to the means of production (unlike, for instance, peasants, who remain in direct, non-market possession of land); while appropriation cannot rely on ‘extra-economic’ powers of appropriation by means of direct coercion - such as the military, political, and judicial powers that enable feudal lords to extract surplus labour from peasants - but must depend on the purely ‘economic’ mechanism of the market. This distinct system of market dependence means that the requirements of competition and profit-maximization are the fundamental rules of life. Because of those rules, capitalism is a system uniquely driven to improve the productivity of labour by technical means. Above all, it is a system in which the bulk of society’s work is done by propertyless laborers who are obliged to sell their labour-power in exchange for a wage in order to gain access to the means of life and of labour itself. In the process of supplying the needs and wants of society, workers are at the same time and inseparably creating profits for those who buy their labour-power. In fact, the production of goods and services is subordinate to the production of capital and capitalist profit. The basic objective of the capitalist system, in other words, is the production and self-expansion of capital.

        This is a very specific form of market economy that relies on a very specific sort of property rights (the completely ahistorical way in which you mention abstract, ill-defined "property rights" and their relationship to "incentive to produce" is literally unanswerable - it's not even wrong). It didn't arise out of the blue because people found it would be cool to truck and barter.

        The claim is that this type of economy, by relying on the extraction of surplus-value and control of means of production by the capitalist class, produces the impetus for capitalists (and the governments they control) to attack other countries with the intention of obtaining key resources and cheap labor. The reason why the British Empire established so many extractive institutions in Ireland and India and China and other places was both because this introduced those colonies into the world market (i.e integrated them into international capitalism) and produced massive profits for capitalists which now had access to cheap resources (taken with guns) and cheap labor (oppressed with more guns) and could thus more easily compete against the French and Spanish capitalists.

        As much as i despise the writer, Lenin's Imperialism: The Highest Stage of Capitalism was actually a really good analysis of that for the time it was written (and was a massive influence on Wallersteins World-Systems Theory, which isn't a theory you can simply dismiss). And indeed, the neo-colonial ideologues - many of which were in the 'liberal' intellectual tradition of Bentham and Mill you yourself are influenced by - who supported imperialist ventures used arguments about the need to introduce countries to the world market, benefit private enterprise and "modernize" and "industrialize" countries as excuses for these imperialist ventures, all of those obviously main economic and financial preoccupations of capitalists.

        And indeed, many historians historians - Ellen Meiksins Woods, E.P. Thompson, Hobsbawm - have written a lot on the historical ties between capitalism and imperialism, discussing how capitalist development in Europe was largely financed by the extractive institutions they established everywhere else. Just like you shout about the historical connection beween 20th century Communism and dictatorship, there is a strong historical connection between growing international trade based in profit-seeking firms and massive fucking imperialism; even if this latter movement lacked an official manifesto. I recommend Hobsbawm's The Age of Empire: 1875–1914 if you want to read into that.

        I would argue the horrors committed by Stalin and Mao were committed for the same reason that European countries during the Golden Age of laissez-faire Liberalism committed the same horrors: The economic and political impetus generated by class relationships. As i stated up there: "The socialist reply that capitalist relations of production did provide certain states and private institutions with the economic and political impetus to cause these horrors (Leopold II of Belgium did treat the Congo as his private property in search of profit, after all) much like economic and political conditions provided these allegedly "socialist" countries with the impetus to commit horrors (Stalin's Russia did forcefully collectivize agriculture in Ukraine with the intention of exporting to finance quick industrialization, after all)".

        We know what caused those institutions in the USSR (Marxian thought)

        But do we? You haven't established any necessary causal relationship, and as /u/MyShitsFuckedDown3 already pointed out you don't seem to know much about the intra-Marxist debates on what institutions socialism should have.

        The blanket statement that "Marxian thought" led to extractive institutions in the USSR is just flat out wrong. First of all, me and /u/MyShitsFuckedDown3 already wrote a lot about how you are dismissing incredibly important sectors of Marxist thinkers that opposed those extractive institutions (including Marx's original work and the most important Marxist theoretician of the 2nd International) and ignoring the fact that Marx's influence is infinitely broader than just 20th century Communism (as i already stated, the vast majority of people who were and are influenced by Marx to a significant degree are not even socialists at all, unless you count nearly all historians and sociologists and anthropologists and world-systems theorists in the world as godless commies).

        Second of all, your claim about historical causality is based on idealistic great-man-ism that dismisses the importance of historical, political and economic conditions. I mean, the fact that the USSR literally had 14 international super-powers declare war on it the moment it formed did in fact contribute to the fact a paranoid caste of bureaucrats became it's leadership. The fact it was a semi-feudal country that was still based on exploitative class relationships and that had an imperative need to undergo industrialization did provide the impetus to proletarianize and extract the shit out of the peasantry (much like the British empire did two and a half centuries earlier...).

        Like besttrousers already pointed out, the reason why Sudan went from colony to "communist" dictatorship to islamism with little change in it's authoritarian institutions was because the extractive institutions used these ideologies to legitimize themselves. The case that the anti-USSR Marxists have always made was that it was a brutal class society that formed due to historical conditions and which reified "Marxism" into it's official ideology by completely removing the critical and revolutionary content that was at it's core. The reason why this reified version of "Marxism" became the most well-known was because it had a literal dictatorial superpower propping it up and murdering the Marxist opposition (obligatory reference to ice axes and etc), while the other superpower that posed itself as an opponent to it only had an incentive to publicly engage with this reified "Marxism". This is an argument which your line of thinking is literally unable to engage at all, since you seem to take your historical narrative for granted.

        [–]ergopraxisOn a quest to retrieve badphil, deep in the lands of badecon 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

        I don't really want to participate in these threads, seeing as I have no horse in this race, anyway, but I want to make two brief (by my standards, anyway) notes:

        The first is that what you say here:

        terms don't make a good society, good institutions do.

        Is really an excellent way to put it. What's at stake in scientific or philosophical discussions are not linguistic conventions, but something substantive, in this case which actual or possible institutions work or would (or don't or wouldn't) work in what way, and which are good or just (or aren't) and for what reasons. But then it should also be clear that one shouldn't conflate different institutions under the same terms, because then we either don't really know what we're talking about (with a term we represent a vague amalgam of possibly contradictory ideas that can't be made concrete for this reason), or we're talking past each other. We consequently can't produce knowledge. You must agree that regardless of whether the institutional framework (or lack thereof) that /u/the_old_gentleman or /u/myshitsfuckeddown3 are proposing would be a clusterfuck for reasons you might advance that are relevant with the actual content of these theoretical proposals, it just isn't the soviet institutional framework. This is a distinction which must be made, or else we're talking nonsense. We need to understand what someone is actually talking about, and we need to engage with that (for the sake of knowledge, not as a courtesy). So my first note is that this is the most accurate thing you said in this thread, but I'm not sure you really take it seriously.

        My second note is about your complaint (I'm not sure if you phrased it in this thread, or in the silver thread) that the badecon userbase dismisses one kind of heterodoxy (austrian thought) out of hand but refuses to do the same for another (marxian thought). I just don't think this is factually correct, and I think it is good that it isn't. Your celebrated posts on the ABCT did not appear to me to be out of hand dismissals, and in fact it seems to me that this is why they were celebrated in the first place, because they engaged with the argument in an informative way. If your posts were just "ABCT is heterodox, and therefore I don't need to examine it to know it's wrong, QED", they would be garbage and at the very most they would inspire some dank memery. They wouldn't be taken to be intellectually interesting or much of an accomplishment, and if I might add, they would absolutely be unfair to austrian thought, which after all might be wrong (in part or in whole), and this might be easilly demonstrable and require no effort or time to do so, but we absolutely do need to be able to demonstrate that this is the case where it is the case, or we need to be silent about what we don't really know (and in that way we might find out something about it which isn't wrong). If I can't show something to be the case to myself, then how am I justified in holding it to be the case? If I can, then why wouldn't I be able to show it to other reasonable creatures, if they are listening? So my second note is that I don't think the badecon userbase wants to dismiss one kind of heterodoxy without serious thought, but not another, but even if it did, the right thing would be to stop doing this, not to universalise this habit, which appears to me to be the antithesis of scientific practice.

        [–]The_Old_Gentleman 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

        So my second note is that I don't think the badecon userbase wants to dismiss one kind of heterodoxy without serious thought, but not another, but even if it did, the right thing would be to stop doing this, not to universalise this habit, which appears to me to be the antithesis of scientific practice.

        I should note that it is quite telling that MSFD3 cited three different, reputable contributors to economic thought (one of them a flair in this sub) appraisal's of Marx to state his case, only to be shot back with a barrage of claims that Marx had absolutely zero influence with no citations; and in over 150 posts of discussion the only person from here who actually cited a single relevant paper critical of Marx was one from the ""heretical unscientific heterodox"" camp, /u/roboczar. Not to mention people ignoring the existence of people like Sweezy, Baran and Schumpeter, all of them directly influenced by Marx and all of them people who published their stuff in top academic journals.

        So i have to say, this is quite telling that this crusade to dismiss heterodox thought not only completely misses the point of science itself (and building false equivalencies between all forms of heterodoxy and "creationism" doesn't do anything but highlight one's own ignorance of the subject at hand), but it's also been carried out in a terribly hypocritical manner. Yet another discussion that is downright embarrassing, coming from an academic sub.

        [–]neshalchandermanIt is a mighty joke, is it not? 3ポイント4ポイント  (6子コメント)

        it happens to be the case that pro-capitalist traditions of political economy did actually play a significant role justifying certain colonial policies which had disastrous results.

        If a 'tradition of political economy' supported capitalism and colonialism go bitch about that tradition. That switch from capitalism to some people who supported capitalism and other things is weaselly.

        [–]The_Old_Gentleman 7ポイント8ポイント  (5子コメント)

        Ahem.

        This argument, which seeks to have it's cake and eat it too, ignores the socialist reply that capitalist relations of production did provide certain states and private institutions with the economic and political impetus to cause these horrors (Leopold II of Belgium did treat the Congo as his private property in search of profit, after all) much like economic and political conditions provided these allegedly "socialist" countries with the impetus to commit horrors (Stalin's Russia did forcefully collectivize agriculture in Ukraine with the intention of exporting to finance quick industrialization, after all); and that many notable "pro-capitalist" ideologues came to the defense of these horrors committed by capitalist states by discussing them as a matter of boosting profits or keeping the free flow of commerce or even "protecting private property" (the favorite argument of 3rd world latifundia when they hire pistoleros to murder land and indigenous reform activists).

        Cue to Slavoj Žižek:

        "Our blindness to the results of systemic violence is perhaps most clearly perceptible in debates about communist crimes. Responsibility for communist crimes is easy to allocate: we are dealing with subjective evil, with agents who did wrong. We can even identify the ideological sources of the crimes- totalitarian ideology, The Communist Manifesto, Rousseau, even Plato. But when one draws attention to the millions who died as a the result of capitalist globalization, from the tragedy of Mexico in the 16th century through to the Belgian Congo holocaust a century ago, responsibility is largely denied. All this seems just to have happened as the result of an ‘objective’ process, which nobody planned and executed and for which there was no Capitalist Manifesto."

        So wumbo's anti-socialist argumentation is extremely disingenuous: It starts off by washing capitalism's hand's clean of any wrong-doing by defining them (and even defining "capitalism" itself) out of existence. It proposes the thesis that "capitalism does nothing wrong" and makes sure it is an unfalsifiable thesis (ironic given how wumbo makes this argument often but also is a huge fan of Popper's philosophy of science), and jesuskebab's reply while faulty did point to this very serious issue with it.

        [–]neshalchandermanIt is a mighty joke, is it not? 8ポイント9ポイント  (3子コメント)

        Proper academic practice requires the careful selection of definitions, the careful selection of data and the careful choice of interpretative tools.

        You cannot, cannot, cannot reason:

        Here are three or four stories with a guy who supported capitalism AND THEY DID BAD THINGS! ... therefore capitalism is wrong, and trivially, of course old boy, wumbo!capitalism is false.

        I don't need to argue about wumbo's claim that wumbo!capitalism doesn't show any sign of leading to oppressive behaviour. Not not at all.

        My stories are goods enough to show that 'capitalism' is wrong.

        Want more Zizek quotes?


        You'll are both acting like a pair of children while acting like you'll are engaging in some intellectual argument. And I'll stick by my first comment. That R3 is poor.

        ignores the socialist reply that capitalist relations of production did provide certain states and private institutions with the economic and political impetus to cause these horrors.

        The critical claim here is the above.

        The listing of paticular horrors does nothing to support this claim. You need the linkage.

        It's a mirror ofthat R3. Marxism is broader than what has been practicednso wumbo's claims about wumbo!marxism are wrong.

        These arguments are so irrelevant.

        [–]flyingdragon8 9ポイント10ポイント  (2子コメント)

        Yeah, this latest badX war is dumb all around. Both sides' arguments have pretty much boiled down to "people subscribing to intellectual tradition X did horrible things, ergo intellectual tradition X is bullshit."

        I mean, if we're going by that heuristic, we'll be left with nothing at all. There is no serious intellectual tradition with a genuinely clean history.

        [–]besttrousers 5ポイント6ポイント  (1子コメント)

        There is no serious intellectual tradition with a genuinely clean history.

        Randomistas!

        [–]Reg_MonkeyJust run OLS 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Surely there has to be some developmental thing.

        Plus there is the Besttrouser's seizure of power during the great Wumbo Wall incident. He didn't even fix the flairs! That was irwin, yet he REMAINS a mod.

        [–]neshalchandermanIt is a mighty joke, is it not? 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

        I would say that when I call the behaviour childish in my other comment reply it's a more general reply to the whole stupidity of this. Not any particular hit on you.

        [–]crunkDealerRobots are horses 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Capitalists left behind a school of thought that was responsible for colonial exploitation, chattel slavery, and millions of deaths

        Dude what? If anything slavery is more mercantilist. For fucks sake Wealth of Nations makes the economic argument against slavery.

        "The experience of all ages and nations, I believe, demonstrates that the work done by slaves, though it appears to cost only their maintenance, is in the end the dearest of any. A person who can acquire no property can have no other interest but to eat as much and to labor as little as possible. Whatever work he does beyond what is sufficient to purchase his own maintenance, can be squeezed out of him by violence only, and not by any interest of his own."

        As right or wrong as the statement is, the original book on capitalism is pretty anti-slavery

        [–]kohatsootsich 12ポイント13ポイント  (11子コメント)

        This is actually trivially false going all the way back to Marx himself. Peter Hudis' book, "Marx's Concept of the Alternative to Capitalism" as well as Ernest Screpanti's wonderful "Libertarian Communism: Marx, Engels and the Political Economy of Freedom" both go into this very subject in extreme detail but we'll take for granted the claim that "to deny that Marxist theory isn't inundated with central planning is completely revisionist" is correct and then go from there.

        I don't know either Hudis or Screpanti, but I have made serious efforts to understand the Communist Manifesto and Das Kapital, and a lot of commentary. I find it hard to escape the conclusion that he would have been in favor of extremely strong centralized power.

        The first steps towards communism as outlined at the end of Part 2 of the Manifesto, the only place I can remember reading explicit, concrete proposals, are all about consolidating central power. Now you can say this was just supposed to be "transition period", but the wild variety of prescriptions and predictions among Marxists for how the transition should evolve, and historical evidence, seem to indicate there's some serious difficulty ever getting out of that transition. By the way, Rosa Luxemburg, whom you cite as an example of a proponent of a decentralized vision of Marxism, begins her 1918 Spartacus programme by copying Marx and Engels' proposals and insisting that they are the objective to attain.

        I understand that Marx wrote much more, but you can't expect everyone to devote their lives to studying everything he ever said or could possibly have thought. So I don't think the common conflation of Marxism with central planning is "trivially false" at all, even if you honestly engage with the most famous works.

        [–]The_Old_Gentleman 12ポイント13ポイント  (10子コメント)

        The problem with The Communist Manifesto is that it is a very early work of political propaganda written for a particular context (the revolutions of 1848). His more mature and analytical work about politics, both those before the Manifesto (such as his Critique of Hegel's Philosophy of Right and his On the Jewish Question) and specially those written after the Paris Commune in 1871 (such as Critique of the Gotha Program and The Civil War in France) bring a very different and much more nuanced discussion.

        The first steps towards communism as outlined at the end of Part 2 of the Manifesto, the only place I can remember reading explicit, concrete proposals, are all about consolidating central power.

        The problem here is that Marx is uses "State" in those comments with a rather specific meaning, specifically, "the proletariat organised as the ruling class". At the time Marx did not elaborate in detail on the specific political institutions that this organized power would imply beside arguing it would be based on a "democratic Constitution"[1] and arguing in his later polemics with Bakunin that "all people" would participate in this political organization since "the whole thing begins with the self-government of the commune".

        In later editions of the Manifesto he would come to explicitly criticize these steps outlined at the end of the Part 2 of the Manifesto, arguing:

        No special stress is laid on the revolutionary measures proposed at the end of Section II. That passage would, in many respects, be very differently worded today. [...] One thing especially was proved by the Commune, viz., that “the working class cannot simply lay hold of the ready-made state machinery, and wield it for its own purposes.”

        After the Paris Commune happened (and gave to socialists of all sorts a clearer conception of what happens when the proletariat takes control of the situation) and after he had to deal with Bakunin's criticism, Marx wrote in The Civil War in France a critique[2] of "centralized state power, with its ubiquitous organs of standing army, police, bureaucracy, clergy, and judicature – organs wrought after the plan of a systematic and hierarchic division of labor" and positively described the Commune as a "revolution against the State itself" - explicitly repudiating strong, centralized political power. In Critique of the Gotha Program Marx writes a critique[3] of the Lassalean socialists who believed in a state-centered socialism, though he still upheld a conception of a transitory State modeled after the Paris Commune.

        That's not to say Marx's writings on the State and on consolidating proletarian political power weren't problematic. Bakunin despised Marx's political theories based on the impression he had of Marx in 1848 (as a supporter of State centralization and pan-Germanism) and based on Marx being seemingly associated with the Lassallean SPD (when in fact Marx was critical of it's platform). Indeed, Marx's repudiation of his early 1848 program and the more critical writings on the State i just cited were written not just as a response to the Paris Commune but also as an attempt to reply to Bakunin's criticism and re-frame his conception of a dictatorship of the proletariat - anarchists often argue (falsely, in my view) that Marx changed his mind about the State but refused to admit so.

        If you are interested in reading more about Marx's conception of the State and politics and how they evolved over time, i recommend the essay Karl Marx & The State[4] by the Marxist-Humanist Initiative. I disagree with Marx's conception insofar as i think that even Marx's later writings about the Paris Commune and in reply with Bakunin were underdeveloped and full of ambiguities (errors which were exacerbated by the traditions of Kautsky and Lenin that followed) and i agree with many points raised by Bakunin against Marx (particularly those about the class character of the state-bureaucracy), but still, it would be inaccurate to simply characterize Marx as "in favor of extremely strong centralized power".

        Tl;dr: It's complicated.

        [–]kohatsootsich 8ポイント9ポイント  (8子コメント)

        The problem here is that Marx is uses "State" in those comments with a rather specific meaning, specifically, "the proletariat organised as the ruling class".

        Perhaps you are right, although I am not sure what allows you to conclude this, especially since, if this were true, I don't understand why Marx and Engels would specify that their proposals are especially well-suited to "most advanced countries". In any case, I don't think this is obvious to a reader nowadays, nor do I have any reason to think it would have been obvious to contemporary readers.

        After the Paris Commune happened (and gave Marx a clearer conception of what happens when the proletariat takes control of the situation) and after he had to deal with to Bakunin's criticism, Marx wrote in The Civil War in France a critique[2] of "centralized state power, with its ubiquitous organs of standing army, police, bureaucracy, clergy, and judicature – organs wrought after the plan of a systematic and hierarchic division of labor" and positively described the Commune as a "revolution against the State itself". In Critique of the Gotha Program Marx writes a critique[3] of the Lassalean socialists who believed in a state-centered socialism, though he still upheld a conception of a transitory State modeled after the Paris Commune.

        I'm aware of this. This is actually what the beginning of Luxemburg's Spartacus programme is about, and yet she concludes that circumstances in 1918 are such as to invalidate Marx and Engels' concerns in their later preface, and that actually their original proposals should be followed.

        Anyway, my main point was simply that people who are not scholars of Marx (and why would you be?), but honestly read the Manifesto and Kapital, by far the most famous works, can be excused for suspecting that Marx would favor central planning.

        [–]The_Old_Gentleman 5ポイント6ポイント  (4子コメント)

        Perhaps you are right, although I am not sure what allows you to conclude this, especially since, if this were true, I don't understand why Marx and Engels would specify that their proposals are especially well-suited to "most advanced countries". In any case, I don't think this is obvious to a reader nowadays, nor do I have any reason to think it would have been obvious to contemporary readers.

        It's written right before he outlines these measures:

        The proletariat will use its political supremacy to wrest, by degree, all capital from the bourgeoisie, to centralise all instruments of production in the hands of the State, i.e., of the proletariat organised as the ruling class; and to increase the total productive forces as rapidly as possible.

        In my view, Marx and Engels overestimated how clear their own conceptions were to everybody else. For example, in their polemic with Bakunin they argued that even in the Communist Manifesto they had already argued for the withering away of the State - and they do, in the paragraph after they argue "the public power will lose its political character", but almost anyone who reads the Manifesto with out knowing the wider context surrounding it wouldn't really understand this point at all.

        I'm aware of this. This is actually what the beginning of Luxemburg's Spartacus programme is about, and yet she concludes that circumstances in 1918 are such as to invalidate Marx and Engels' concerns in their later preface, and that actually their original proposals should be followed.

        In all honestly, i've read that too and suspect that Rosa Luxemburg and her party were desperate to rally workers for a successful revolution (they were terribly aware that if they failed, they would die) and clutched to a propaganda work they knew was well-known. Plus, the ""success" of the Russian Revolution and the fact that Rosa had been a member of 2nd International Social-Democracy for so long probably contributed to their need to speak of things in terms of state-ownership.

        Edit: Still, it should be pointed out that Rosa was no fan of standing armies or police forces or central bureaucracies, explicitly criticized the censorship and undemocratic policies pursued by the Bolsheviks and her work predominantly influenced the council-communist tradition. If she believed that economic forces needed to be concentrated in the hands of the State, i think there are good reasons to believe that she still opposed centralized, strong political power.

        Anyway, my main point was simply that people who are not scholars of Marx (and why would you be?), but honestly read the Manifesto and Kapital, by far the most famous works, can be excused for suspecting that Marx would favor central planning.

        Oh, i agree. I mean, i believe that section of the Manifesto did much harm to the socialist movement. However the OP that MSFD posted is someone who is well-aware that Marxism =\= "Central planning", specially after arguing with them, me and others about this many times.

        [–]kohatsootsich 8ポイント9ポイント  (3子コメント)

        It's written right before he outlines these measures

        I see. Allow me to backtrack a little. Aside from my being unable to read carefully, I think in my hasty response I neglected a more important point: what difference does it make if the state is just "the proletariat organized as the ruling class"? It's still clear that, at least at the time, they wanted significant state monopolies. You can argue that the "proletariat organized as the ruling class" really means "everyone", but then what does a state monopoly on extending credit mean, for example?

        Still, it should be pointed out that Rosa was no fan of standing armies or police forces or central bureaucracies, explicitly criticized the censorship and undemocratic policies pursued by the Bolsheviks and her work predominantly influenced the council-communist tradition. If she believed that economic forces needed to be concentrated in the hands of the State, i think there are good reasons to believe that she still opposed centralized, strong political power.

        It's hard to understand how "economic forces" can be concentrated in the hands of the state without some coercion and bureaucracy. Outside of our perception and need to organize our thoughts about society, there's little about "economic forces" that makes them different from other human activity.

        Associated to every revolutionary movement in history, going much further back than the 19th century, you can find theorists à la Luxembourg, whose personal, humanistic views most would agree with. I'm not sure the ability to cite them here or there can vindicate the whole movement when it goes off the rails.

        [–]The_Old_Gentleman 5ポイント6ポイント  (2子コメント)

        what difference does it make if the state is just "the proletariat organized as the ruling class"? It's still clear that, at least at the time, they wanted significant state monopolies. You can argue that the "proletariat organized as the ruling class" really means "everyone", but then what does a state monopoly on extending credit mean, for example?

        Because it's not a "state" in the sense we are used to think about it. For example, if the current American government decided to nationalize all banks and create a credit monopoly, this wouldn't be what Marx was talking about. What Marx thought about was the entire working class creating it's own, new political institutions where everyone has a say and economic forces then being seized by these new institutions.

        So, if a huge network of directly democratic councils spread in the US and these councils took over banks and turned them into credit unions that span the entire council-based political system, this would be more in line with what Marx was thinking (and is a much more nuanced sort of institutional change to analyze, depending on how it is carried out).

        [–]kohatsootsich 5ポイント6ポイント  (1子コメント)

        Even disregarding the question of how the "seizure of economic forces" would happen, you are side-stepping the issue of how the monopoly would be enforced.This would require some sort of state power in the traditional sense. Either that or all these institutions are voluntary, in which case you are free to join your local credit union right now.

        [–]The_Old_Gentleman 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Even disregarding the question of how the "seizure of economic forces" would happen, you are side-stepping the issue of how the monopoly would be enforced. This would require some sort of state power in the traditional sense.

        Well... yes it would rely on a transitory state power, which is one of my disagreements with Marx and one of the reasons why i think that section of the Manifesto is really bad. Monopolies are, simply put, pretty bad. But a point that is really important is that to Marx this monopoly wouldn't be enforced upon what would otherwise be a "voluntary" society, but would be a political institution that would arise by ousting another sort of state-enforced class monopoly (which is, capitalist private property and financial capital), and would be a political institution which is supposed to be more democratic and inclusive than what we have now (and it's state power would eventually wither away).

        [–]Buffalo__Buffalo 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

        I don't understand why Marx and Engels would specify that their proposals are especially well-suited to "most advanced countries".

        This is historical materialism 101 - under other modes of production there is an almost absolute control of power by the ruling classes (primitive communism aside) whereby a slave or a serf could go on strike - and the end result would be death or starvation.

        It's only under the mode of capitalism where the proletariat hold a lot of unrealized power in the economy system with which they are able to effect change (in part due to the "moral-historical component" of standards and treatment of the proletariat) - which is the power of unionism and of going on strike. Naturally, there always exists opportunities for uprising within any society under any mode of production but it's much more likely to bring about change - at least according to Marx - under capitalism.

        [–]kohatsootsich 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

        I understand that part. I was specifically refering to the short list of concrete actions they present at the end of Part 2 of the Manifesto. After an admission that the specifics of the revolution might vary from place to place, they introduce the list by saying something like "the following should be suitable for most advanced countries". The proposals mention things like taking over transportation and communications, confiscating the property of dissenters and establishing a monopoly in banking. I sort of assumed this meant taking over an existing State, and that the proposals were specifically tailored to "advanced countries" because they mentioned stuff like communications. I was set right above: to them the State really means something else entirely (although what exactly is unclear).

        [–]Buffalo__Buffalo 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

        This is just a materialist approach to wresting control over the economic and political spheres from the bourgeoisie. But yeah, Bakunin definitely foresaw some of the issues that arose from the centralization and nationalization which occurred in just about every example of socialism IN the 20th century.

        [–]Buffalo__Buffalo 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

        dictatorship of the proletariat

        and let's not forget that Marx used the term "dictatorship" not in the modern sense of an autocracy but one invoking the idea of the Classical Roman dictatura.

        Most people read a little bit of Marx, they see the word 'dictatorship' and then they go "A-ha! I caught you out Marx, you dirty snake in the grass—socialism really is about dictatorships and you can't deny it!" without any regard for the fact that the work is almost 150 years old and translated from German, so there's nuances in the language which are easy to overlook. I mean, try reading Madame Bovary (written in the same era) with an expectation to "get it" without footnotes and no understanding of the context in which it was written and you're going to have a bad time. And MB isn't even a treatise like Capital is.

        [–]roboczarcan't get no satisficing 15ポイント16ポイント  (1子コメント)

        Don't take my word for it. Refer to Sraffa's 1960 Production of Commodities by Means of Commodities which is a robust and formal critique of the LTV, while providing a compatible alternative that still encapsulates Marxian ideas.

        Furthermore, you can also take a look at Sraffian/Neo-Ricardian/Post-Keynesian critiques here:

        Petri, Fabio (2012). "On Recent Reformulations of the Labour Theory of Value"

        Mongiovi, Gary (2002). "Vulgar Economy in Marxian Garb: A Critique of Temporal Single-System Marxism"

        to find out exactly why TSSI is both empirically and theoretically wrong.

        I didn't just say that because I was making a drive-by comment, I actually know what I'm talking about. I simply didn't get into it at the time.

        Edit: More information on Marx's "Ricardian mistakes"

        [–]MyShitsFuckedDown3Uphold Marxism-Wumboism[S] 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

        I haven't seen Petri's work on the subject and will definitely check it out. Sraffian work I'm mostly familiar with as presented via Steedman, Howard/King's work, and Saad-Filho so it may be somewhat filtered in that regard. Either way thanks for the response.

        [–]dream_meme_team 11ポイント12ポイント  (8子コメント)

        Everyone involved in this ideological scuffle is guilty of practicing Bad Social Science by being so wedded to their particular field as the correct way of viewing the world. It's both arrogant and anti-intellectual to write off entire academic fields like this. This applies equally to economists who write off Marxian thought, and to people from other disciplines who write off economics.

        No one social science has all the answers; the tools of inquiry from one social science may be perfect for understanding one phenomenon and useless at understanding another. The view that the social sciences are in competition with one another only holds the social sciences back. Many of the advances in the natural sciences over the past 150 years have been the result of interdisciplinary cooperation; modern medicine would not exist if biologists had derided chemistry the way some sociologists look down on economics.

        By all means, call out misinformation about your own field of study, but if you view that field as the One True Social Science, you're acting as an ideologue, and not as a social scientist should.

        [–]chaosmosis 8ポイント9ポイント  (0子コメント)

        I don't like when people are closeminded and fail to learn from other disciplines as a consequence, but you're arguing too far in the opposite direction. We can't just take it as a premise that all subdisciplines of social science have valuable insights and are worth paying significant amounts of attention to. It is okay for individual people to question group consensuses. It's not like it's unheard of for group consensus to be wrong, even within universities (lol). Leaving room for individuals to exercise their own critical thinking shouldn't be painted as arrogant or anti-intellectual. Making judgments about the relative correctness of various ideas is necessary and desirable for anyone not content to putz around in the ivory tower for the rest of eternity.

        If an idea is correct, someone should advance an argument in favor of that idea, not just throw an insult at the idea's opponents. You say that it's arrogant for the mainstream economists to ignore Marxists, and for the Marxists to ignore mainstream economists. But, in the areas where they clash, which are many, it's generally not possible for both to be right simultaneously. Someone has got to be wrong. It's not a character flaw to recognize that a choice is necessary in these situations. People who doubt a true idea shouldn't be subjected to insults, instead they should be presented with evidence that might change their mind.

        So, if you think Marxism is so great, can you be more specific about in what ways and why?

        [–]he3-1 8ポイント9ポイント  (0子コメント)

        No one social science has all the answers

        cougheconomics doescough

        [–]probablyaname 4ポイント5ポイント  (5子コメント)

        the way some sociologists look down on economics

        some sociologists look down on economics

        sociologists look down on economics

        I think you fundamentally have the relationship backwards here. After all you don't have sociological imperialism as a known and celebrated practice within sociology.

        [–]dream_meme_team 3ポイント4ポイント  (2子コメント)

        I just used the "sociologists looking down on economists" example instead of the reverse because I thought people would be more receptive to it here. I wanted to avoid an economics supporter reading my post, completely missing the point, and then going off on an unproductive "the other guys are more imperialist, it isn't us!" tangent. Thankfully, that didn't happen.

        [–]probablyaname 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Trust me, no economist, or economics supporter would ever fully admit to being inferior, in any way, to sociologists. Their life force is their smugness (like vampires but for smugness), and their greatest source of smugness is sociology. In fact they would rejoice, for you would have given them another meal.

        /s

        Edit: as a fine example see the gentleman below me.

        [–]GpowerR 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

        We aren't afraid of being labelled imperalist. We embrace it.

        [–]DrSandbagsSurgically-Augmented Dickey-Fuller 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

        To look down on them, you have to first be operating at a higher level than them ;)

        [–]probablyaname 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Hey man, you try to math your way through the living patterns of low-level drug dealers and see how that goes.

        Joking, mostly.

        [–]ArcadePlus 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Doesn't the materialist conception of history imply a type of universal cultural evolution?

        [–]wumbotarianfenance 4ポイント5ポイント  (15子コメント)

        Gentle reminder that MSFD3 says that Marxian Economist Richard Wolff is not a Marxian economist.

        Probably because I said my understanding of Marxian economics comes from Wolff, and MSFD3 doesn't like anything I say.

        [–]MyShitsFuckedDown3Uphold Marxism-Wumboism[S] 10ポイント11ポイント  (13子コメント)

        Gentle reminder that MSFD3 says that Marxian Economist Richard Wolff is not a Marxian economist.

        Feel free to quote me on that.

        Also has literally nothing to do with the topic at hand so... :/

        [–]wumbotarianfenance 3ポイント4ポイント  (12子コメント)

        It was stated back when yoh said (contrary to Bowles and Gintis) that Marxian economics wasn't post modern (or critical theory? can't quite remember ).

        Also it is relevant, because I don't take your positions on Marxian economics seriously when your escape from criticism is "Not True Marxism"

        [–]85-sailors-and-meThe User Formerly Know as 0729370220937022 5ポイント6ポイント  (2子コメント)

        Gentle reminder that MSFD3 says that Marxian Economist Richard Wolff

        No, that was MSFD2, not MSFD3

        [–]wumbotarianfenance 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

        Oops, my bad :/

        [–]85-sailors-and-meThe User Formerly Know as 0729370220937022 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Also, this is about as close as you can get to MSFD saying that Wolff isn't a marxist. Which is a really not close at all.

        [–]SolarAquarion"The political implications of full employment" 4ポイント5ポイント  (4子コメント)

        Marxian economics is far from post modern. If Marxian economics is post modern, then everything is post modern.

        [–]besttrousers 1ポイント2ポイント  (3子コメント)

        Leading American Marxists disagree.:

        [–]85-sailors-and-meThe User Formerly Know as 0729370220937022 4ポイント5ポイント  (1子コメント)

        Does Wolff actually say that Marxian economics is post modern? Or does he hold postmodern beliefs that are unnecessary/separate from Marxist economics?

        [–]besttrousers 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

        http://rdwolff.com/content/representing-class-essays-postmodern-marxism

        Re/presenting Class is a collection of essays that develops a poststructuralist Marxian conception of class in order to theorize the complex contemporary economic terrain. Both building upon and reconsidering a tradition that Stephen Resnick and Richard Wolff - two of this volume's editors - began in the late 1980s with their groundbreaking work Knowledge and Class, contributors aim to correct previous research that has largely failed to place class as a central theme in economic analysis. Suggesting the possibility of a new politics of the economy, the collection as a whole focuses on the diversity and contingency of economic relations and processes.

        That doesn't sound like unnecessary/separate to me.

        (It's important to note for this conversation that the Marxist approach within economics is trivially small.)

        [–]MyShitsFuckedDown3Uphold Marxism-Wumboism[S] 6ポイント7ポイント  (3子コメント)

        nice b8 m8.

        Feel free to confront topic of the thread.

        I mean, yeah, you're obviously wrong about the other stuff, including me claiming Wolff isn't a Marxian economist which you've still not been able to substantiate. One topic at a time comrade.

        [–]wumbotarianfenance 3ポイント4ポイント  (2子コメント)

        you've still not been able to substantiate. One topic at a time comrade.

        I honestly don't really care to, sorry. This junk about Marxism is as fruitful as MMT discussions. The proliferation of heterodox economics on this subreddit is saddening.

        [–]MyShitsFuckedDown3Uphold Marxism-Wumboism[S] 12ポイント13ポイント  (0子コメント)

        I would be sad too if I spent as much time here pontificating about stuff I've only learned about via /u/The_Old_Gentleman's posts and YouTube videos. If I cared as much to maintain arguments of this length I would at least spend some time researching the topic by reading the relevant material.

        Not that TOG is a bad resource, he's great. But I mean, maybe I'd like, follow-up and read some of his suggestions or follow-up material on topics he references? I mean, you know, basic stuff.

        [–]Webby912 10ポイント11ポイント  (0子コメント)

        I find your "debates" with the MMT crowd to help me better understand monetary policy, but the "debates" with marxists are just annoying and I think you should stop responding to them, nothing of value seems to come out.

        [–]bigkr88neoliberal shill 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Don't worry wumbo, a loyal R1 submitter is here to dank prax this entire badx war out of existence!

        1) marxism and capitalism are competing economic systems

        2) human action is purposeful behavior

        3) marxist systems which are implemented in the real world inevitably cause widespread economic distress/death

        4) said marxist systems are renamed and thus are no longer marxist (ie Maoism, Stalinism, North Korea)

        5) there are marxist economists sociologists thinkers who believe in marxism without a command economy, ie an economic unicorn system

        conclusion: marxism isn't a horrible idea that masquerades as serious economics! HOORAY!!!!

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