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submitted by UntitledTales
This sub doesn't always have effort post so I decided to make one for the day. In the following post I'll be addressing the responses given by others to this ban, the argumentative leaps made when proposing it, my own take on this issue and what this means for the Muslim community going forward. Excuse my anger and frustration.
Oh boy. Now I've seen many ridiculous arguments made against Muslims. But I never really expected the negativity to compound into something of this strange political nature. The entire idea that you can force another human being from doing something they sincerely don't want to do, over the desire to fulfill a triviality of your day to day life, is simply blowing my mind. Here are my thoughts and highlights of the argumentative leaps made.
First of all, it's utterly pointless to force someone from a different cultural background to follow your own cultural trivialities. It forces you into a position where you reject any notion of open-mindedness and tolerance towards the cultures of others. Are you seriously willing to argue that hand shaking is some sort of European social landmark, and that the idea of refusing to do so out of modesty would be such an insult to you and your being and that you would be so offended you would enshrine it within the political system of your "progressive" country to make sure no one commits such a horrifying taboo?
Secondly, do you really not see how bloody ridiculous it is? If an American didn't wear a top hat while walking down London or say that baguettes aren't the greatest bread ever while in France would you also say that they're offending your rich and vast European culture. The whole world would be in uproar. Does a world not exist outside of Europe? To be consistent you would have to force people to follow all the other European cultural trivialities or legitimate practices, whatever it be, as well. Are people in such great offense for not shaking your bloody hand?Do you believe your culture to be so fickle that anyone living in your country not following it's every detail will surely undermine it and take your country over? Do you really?
There's so so much more I could write about the implications of a ban like this and it's affect on individuality, secularism, human rights, tolerance, what it means to be progressive, how it ultimately harms your own society e.t.c but I think this much will suffice. Onto the replies of others:
Swiss here, for me it's plain and simple. Here in switzerland we teach our kids that if you are a guest, you try to adapt the habbits of the host as much as possible, because that is what we define as polite. This is the way we live and I can tell you, we are welcome quests nearly everywhere because of that.
Hah? That's it then. Everyone has to live like you and you're idea of a society is one where you're sheltered from the views and practices of others? Do you not realize how that will damage the intellectual progress of your country. You don't accept people because you're an open-minded progressive European country, you accept them because they pretty much have to become like you anyways.
Now, there are foreigners living in switzerland who do not share the same mindset and are not even willing to at least try to adapt. And this is wrong and where the problem starts. If you are coming into a country, where people are used to certain habbits, you do have to respect them. This includes shaking hands if asked for. Otherwise, you probably should join a different country which suits your personal habbits better.
This just gets better and better doesn't it. So someone is apparently "not even willing to at least try to adapt" to your country if they don't follow all the trivialities. I'm so happy I live in Canada and they had the whole "you gotta be like us or you aint us" thing back in the 80s or whenever. This kinda reminds me of when women weren't allowed to vote and they said sassy things like, " I've committed the grave crime of voting in the election", and now I can say that I'll end up committing the grave crime of not shaking your hand out of modesty.
If you do enshrine culture in your country like this, to the extent that you force others from practicing anything else, no matter how trivial. Then honestly, you're just treating your culture as some sort of religion. I'm not even sure that religious countries force their citizens into the type of triviality that Switzerland has now. Imagine the outrage if Pakistan made a law to force everyone to grow beards , yet it's not Pakistan making laws for such trivial things it's Switzerland. Go figure.
all 41 comments
[–]AndTheEgyptianSmiled 9 points10 points11 points  (0 children)
Switzerland's reaction to handshaking = kinda fascist, violating freedom and basic human rights.
And I say this as a handshaka'.
[–]Last_Jedi 8 points9 points10 points  (0 children)
What I find ironic is that most of the people who support the fine will probably tell you, "Who cares if you're offended, it doesn't mean anything!"
But when something offends them suddenly not being offended is literally their right and worthy of being upheld through the law.
[–]Lawama 6 points7 points8 points  (10 children)
Tbh, if my son and I were refugees, and all the kids shake the hand of the teacher, I would tell my son to shake her hand. He'd be just a kid and it's their custom, it's nice to follow the customs as long as they're not haram.
Inb4 "it's haram":
[–]HafizSahb 11 points12 points13 points  (2 children)
Whether it's haram or not is completely irrelevant in this context because they're being deprived of the ability to choose.
[–]poopguy24 5 points6 points7 points  (0 children)
I'm not sure why the downvotes. I'm cool with handshakes, but this one is not difficult. A human being should not be forced to do something that makes them genuinely uncomfortable. That's just common decency.
[–]Lawama 1 point2 points3 points  (0 children)
I agree they should have the ability to choose, I'm saying I would personally choose to follow the customs as long as they weren't haram.
[–]TruthSeekerWW comment score below threshold-7 points-6 points-5 points  (6 children)
Quran 9:31 They have taken their scholars and monks as lords besides Allah , and [also] the Messiah, the son of Mary. And they were not commanded except to worship one God; there is no deity except Him. Exalted is He above whatever they associate with Him.
This is the same Qaradawi who says Muslim girls can take off hijab and wear swimsuit for sports lessons at school.
[–]ACloseCaller 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
Brother, humans are not free from error. Take from him the good and the leave that which you seem is evil.
[–]assadtisova 0 points1 point2 points  (1 child)
According to Seerah, the Nabih (SAW) asked Umar Ibn Al-Khattab to take the oath of allegiance from women in Mecca by shaking their hands. At the same time, the Nabih SAW never made contact with a non-related female so of course that is best.
[–]TruthSeekerWW 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
According to Seerah, the Nabih (SAW) asked Umar Ibn Al-Khattab to take the oath of allegiance from women in Mecca by shaking their hands.
Jazak Allah Khair, do you have a reference for that ?
[–]Langbrev 2 points3 points4 points  (3 children)
Lol what is going on here??? I'm muslim and I can't believe what I'm reading. The problem here is that the student refuses to shake hands with the women professor, but not the males. Frankly, how can we make combat islamophobia and depict Islam as a progressive religion when we defend such acts of sexism and discrimination against women. Islam always preached equality and nowhere in the Qur'an does it state that a male cannot shake hands with a female. Smh disappointed guys.
[–]BugsByte 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
"Yeah guys, let's throw our religion down the sink ro appeal to some arbitrary recently made-up notions of sexism and to the ever-changing western moral values, don't worry I'm a Muslim but I'm mainly concerned with following what's trendy and I mostly seek approval from others who'd never approve of me unless I acted completely like them, oh and guiz if you don't shake hands then you're dumb and stupid lol"
[–]Bazoun 0 points1 point2 points  (1 child)
I am a Muslim woman and I don't shake men's hands. There is no discrimination against women. Women with women, men with men, completely the same.
My big issue with the new law is that it is forcing people to touch each other even when at least one party doesn't want to. That's just not right.
[–]Langbrev 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
Why don't you shake men's hands? Just wondering.
[–]EACCES 4 points5 points6 points  (3 children)
If an American didn't wear a top hat while walking down London or say that baguettes aren't the greatest bread ever while in France would you also say that they're offending your rich and vast European culture.
That's not a good analogy.
[–]ACloseCaller 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
lol yes it is.
[–]UntitledTales[S] 0 points1 point2 points  (1 child)
The baguette one maybe, but I mainly added that for emphasis. Otherwise, the idea that I'm trying to analogize is that they're both situations where a person of a different cultural identity must adopt a cultural practice of a different country no matter the triviality of it and despite that they're doing no harm whatsoever.
[–]EACCES 1 point2 points3 points  (0 children)
In a sense it is an enforcement of one set of cultural norms - but I don't consider my own religious beliefs/concerns to be an issue of culture. I don't think you do either - otherwise, it's just culture, and neither side should care much.
And the problem (from the perspective of someone Western/European/whatever) is not that refusing to shake hands is an insult to their culture. It's breaking the rules of a culture for interacting with another person, which always sends a signal to and about another person.
That's why your analogy is wrong (and thus unhelpful): by calling your religious beliefs mere culture, it belittles them; by comparing it to an insult of a culture, you ignore the perceived insult to a person.
Within the handshake culture, a handshake is a basic sign of professional respect. Refusing, for whatever reason, is a signal of disrespect. Since it's such a quick gesture, it's hard to explain that your refusal isn't due to disrespect.
edit: the case would also go over a little better in the media if it was two Muslim girls refusing to shake hands with a male teacher - we have a long history of men not respecting women as professionals here, but not any real history of women disrespecting men as professionals
[–]archir 4 points5 points6 points  (13 children)
The problem, from my perspective, was that certain Muslim students would refuse to shake only women professor's hands. Yes, I think having actual public policy to address this borders on near fascist, but I think it's easy to understand the perspective of the native individuals.
[–]ACloseCaller 1 point2 points3 points  (5 children)
Dude..it's a handshake! I think we have bigger problems, like global warming, to worry about.
[–]gkconnor91 2 points3 points4 points  (4 children)
That's not a really good argument. "People are getting robbed in the street, but global warming!"
[–]UntitledTales[S] 0 points1 point2 points  (3 children)
That's not a very good rebuttal. To reply as if he implied that robbery is a more trivial issue compared to global warming is a very dangerous assumption of your part.
[–]gkconnor91 0 points1 point2 points  (2 children)
But that doesn't invalidate my point
[–]ACloseCaller 0 points1 point2 points  (1 child)
Yes it does because we're talking about HANDSHAKES.
[–]gkconnor91 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
But comparing it to global warming? That's like comparing your teacher to Hitler because they gave you an assignment you didn't like. I mean it would be one thing to say it in jest, but I didn't get that feeling from the post.
[–]UntitledTales[S] -2 points-1 points0 points  (6 children)
The problem, from my perspective, was that certain Muslim students would refuse to shake only women professor's hands.
With all due respect, please explain to me how that's a problem in a society where every human is supposed to be given human rights. I'd say it was problematic if they did it out of hatred or bigotry but it's for such a sincere and personal reason.
[–]archir 1 point2 points3 points  (2 children)
I don't live in Switzerland, but as I said before, I believe the issue is that the students in question are only refusing to shake the hands of women professors. It's not right to force someone to shake someone's hand, but to refuse to do so solely based on the person's gender, is where Switzerland's reaction originates.
And in response to your mention of human rights, don't women professors have the right to the same respect that their male colleagues receive from their students?
[–]Bazoun 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
They were male students. Women don't shake men's hands, men don't shake women's hands. It's not gender discrimination if both sides do the same thing.
I'm a Muslim woman and I don't shake hands with men. But I shake women's hands. It has nothing to do with seeing the opposite gender as less than.
[–]UntitledTales[S] -1 points0 points1 point  (0 children)
It's not right to force someone to shake someone's hand, but to refuse to do so solely based on the person's gender, is where Switzerland's reaction originates.
I still don't see it. Maybe if there was an implication that thus the female gender is inferior sure. But there is no such implication. It's purely modesty.
And in response to your mention of human rights, don't women professors have the right to the same respect that their male colleagues receive from their students?
Since when did the denial of the handshake change from out of sincere modesty to out of disrespect to teachers. Does someone who doesn't shake their hand of their teacher for religious reason now not respect the teacher as any other peer?
[–]CyberneticAngel 0 points1 point2 points  (2 children)
But that's just it. In a society where "every human is supposed to be given human rights" it's backwards to say, "but wait, I'm allowed to treat certain people differently because of my personal beliefs". Either all people are treated the same regardless of their differences, or all people do not have equal human rights. You can't have it both ways.
[–]UntitledTales[S] 1 point2 points3 points  (1 child)
What? That's not how it works.
"but wait, I'm allowed to treat certain people differently because of my personal beliefs".
Does personal choice not exist within your world? You're saying that as if not shaking hands violates human rights.
[–]CyberneticAngel 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
If "you", (not you obviously) chose to not shake all peoples hands on principle then that would be true. You would be making a choice not to shake all peoples hands. There would be no prejudice or discrimination. You would be treating everyone equally. But since the boys in question are choosing to shake some hands and not others they are judging the people who they met and deeming some worthy, and others not. They are telling some people "According to my views you are worthy to shake my hand". To others they are saying "Because of my beliefs you may not shake my hand". That is in fact a violation of human rights. You are telling 50% of the population that because of factors beyond your control you must be judged and treated differently. "Human Rights" are by definition rights for all humans. They are not reserved or conferred based on sex, race, etc. Having your hand shaken is not a human right. Being treated the same as all other humans is.
[–]qeqkuf 1 point2 points3 points  (3 children)
I don't support the Swiss government's decision, but I don't think this is just about a handshake, and I don't think it is trivial. I suppose that for most Swiss (Europeans?) it is another example of how their culture is being eroded by another group's culture. By refusing to shake hands, the students are harming the sense of social unity, or so an argument would go. Personally, I wouldn't want my government to force people to shake hands. But, I also wouldn't want this type of family in my country.
[–]moon-jellyfish 0 points1 point2 points  (2 children)
But, I also wouldn't want this type of family in my country.
"Shake hands or get out of the country."
[–]qeqkuf -1 points0 points1 point  (1 child)
No. Just don't accept them in the country in the first place. Now that they are inside, don't force them.
[–]moon-jellyfish 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
Ah, ok. That's much better.
[–]youni89 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
Why can't these Muslims just stay in their own countries instead of imposing onto other peoples' countries?
[–]BugsByte 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
It's just like arguing that If I don't say "Merry Christmas" to you on holidays then I'm being disrespectful and discriminating against you, or that I'm not respecting your culture and cultural values, or that I should say Merry Christmas and exchange gifts or leave this country because you're offended by me not doing what you want me to do, it makes absolutely no sense and it's like throwing the whole liberal values and personal liberty against the wall for the satisfaction of a reactionary moment of the "haha, take that" kind.
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