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Video gaming culture has a legitimate problem with sexualizing women in games. (self.Negareddit)

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[–]Zone_boy 91ポイント92ポイント  (46子コメント)

I agree but I think problem lays in lack of diversity. There is nothing inherently wrong with having sexual characters, except when that's only kind of women characters shown.

Just look at the street fighter series. Men come in so many different favors. They can be smart, badass, ugly, weird, fat, evil, good, and sexy. Women just get sexy. :|

[–]Gilgaphant 55ポイント56ポイント  (15子コメント)

Speaking of Street Fighter (5), I remember that when there was that controversy about Cammy and Mika's intro/ victory poses being taken out of the game because of the sexual content, people tried to point to Zangief and Dhalsim (DHALSIM!) as examples of sexualization of men that justified the sexualization of the female characters. There are people who think Dhalsim--the gnarly, emaciated elderly Indian man--is sexualized and meant to appeal to women.

[–]Zone_boy 27ポイント28ポイント  (8子コメント)

Yeah, men don't get sexualized like women characters do. Not even remotely close.

Those types are grasping at straws to justify video games are pandering to them. I still enjoy video games with bs I disagree with. But I at least i recognize the faults and criticize them.

I often point out Star wars as an example. It barely has any women or PoC in the series, but does that make the movies bad? No, SW is a great movie series. But it can be better with more diversity.(at least the new movie started to correct that)

[–]Lanceaway 8ポイント9ポイント  (7子コメント)

This is a sincere question, and I don't disagree with you, but in earnest curiosity: what do you think it would look like if men were sexualized to the extent that female characters are? Being a heterosexual man myself, I just legitimately don't know how I would design a male character to be sexually provocative for a heterosexual female or a gay man.

[–]Zone_boy 22ポイント23ポイント  (4子コメント)

what do you think it would look like if men were sexualized to the extent that female characters are?

Video games would look very gay friendly. But right now, it's the inverse. How do you think women feel about playing video games when their options of female characters are limited bikini armor to ninja slut?

Women make up half the human race, surprise, surprise, half of the video game market. I think we can have sexual characters, I like sexual characters. I want a female characters to be as diverse as male characters.

I'm not saying all games must have rainbow of characters.(Through that would be awesome) I accept some games will just completely pander to one kind of person. But when the WHOLE video game medium is nothing but T&A. That's a problem.

I just legitimately don't know how I would design a male character to be sexually provocative for a heterosexual female or a gay man.

That's okay. But you can do research on what characters gay men and women like. And not completely focus on looks either, actually study the character. Ask people.

[–]Lanceaway 5ポイント6ポイント  (2子コメント)

Hey, you don't need to convince me any further! I already prefer playing female characters and strongly dislike the aesthetic choices presented, let alone if it had some bearing on how I was expected to relate to the world. It's just that since I've been told that ye olde buff dudebro is not actually sexually appealing, and was looking for some design cues to form a mental image of. Would naked Dante count as appealing, yet reasonable?

[–]Zone_boy 9ポイント10ポイント  (1子コメント)

I guess, I'm not very familiar with DMC series. So to me, it's screenshot of half naked dude. lol, but yet, it's a start. Women and men love abs.

But I think the place to start is the butt. (Warning!!! feministfrequency) I think she raises a great point. Not many games show off the guy's ass, and often go to great lengths to hide it. The only game I can think of is MGS series. Which does a great job of making Solid snake sexy and male power fanasy.(Though it's more of power fantasy.) Solid Snake was a source of weird feelings for me as a teen.

The butt is great place to start with. According to polls, women love butts as much as men do. Maybe even more.

[–]Renaiconna 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

Well-defined (but not bulky) upper bodies are key to hetero female/homosexual male gaze. If you've seen the first season of Arrow, the scenes with Oliver Queen working out are a great example.

Also, since I finally got to see Captain America: Civil War today, when Cap takes down that copter. Dem biceps tho.

[–]sillypersonx 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

Here are some examples. I particularly enjoy Wolverine ;)

[–]Zone_boy 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

Those are great examples. :) This is my favorite Funny, but yet exciting. ;)

[–]lurker093287h 0ポイント1ポイント  (5子コメント)

people tried to point to Zangief and Dhalsim (DHALSIM!)

The only ones I heard was vega and particularly beardy ryu aka 'hot ryu as a pretty legitimate example that actually was appealing to women. I mean this is in a game were probably 80+ percent of the audience are guys.

It is significantly better level of fanservice (imo) than most stuff I've seen that has a similar female audience skew, most of the teen dramas my sister watches have loads of pretty gratuitous abs shots that are obviously there for the girl audience and stuff, I think this is basically the same thing and if you want to critique that you're going to have to address it in all media. There are lots of other examples from Japanese games that are also obviously designed as female fan service, and I think obvious fan service in general is more acceptable in Japan.

[–]jniamh 7ポイント8ポイント  (4子コメント)

teen dramas are a genre of television aimed at women. The entirety of tv is not aimed at women, so as a medium it is not inaccessible to men. Right now, this sexualisation of women is so uniform across the entire medium of video games and not restricted to only a particular genre of video games, that the medium is somewhat inaccessible to women.

[–]lurker093287h 0ポイント1ポイント  (3子コメント)

teen dramas are a genre of television aimed at women. The entirety of tv is not aimed at women, so as a medium it is not inaccessible to men.

There are genres of computer games aimed at women; iirc 'sim' games (i.e. the sims, sim city, etc) HOPA (hidden object puzzle) games like professor Leighton and various other genres are dominated by female players. In Japan interactive 'visual novels' and 'dating sims' (that are a bit popular over here also nowadays) are also genres with high levels of female players. They also usually feature physically attractive male characters designed to appeal to girls.

I think it's a situation similar to novels nowadays where women make up a somewhat large majority of the market and so genres and particular novels that appeal to women are going to be the dominant titles.

[–]jniamh 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

But the discussion isn't really on computer games. It's on console gaming.

[–]Zone_boy 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

It's gaming as a whole. One can not separate PC and consoles. Even the mobile market.

[–]lurker093287h 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

I thought it was about 'video gaming culture' as the title suggests.

You can get HOPA games on console, but I'm not sure they're that popular there. There are other genres though like 'drop in drop out' platform games, dancing/singing games and various others where (according to stuff I've seen) women are usually 50% or more of the audience. I think that those games usually have a style that stereotypically appeals to a mainstream girl audience, like cute or cartoony characters, animals and that kind of stuff.

[–]StumbleOn 16ポイント17ポイント  (1子コメント)

I agree but I think problem lays in lack of diversity

I think that is a huge part of the problem as well, but maybe not ALL of it.

There is definitely a comfortable lack of trying in video games, and I can kind of understand it. Do something too out there, and you could flop and your business is gone. It's easier to churn out the same mindless formula over and over.

[–]Zone_boy 12ポイント13ポイント  (0子コメント)

I agree with a comfortable lack of trying. Just look at the typical AAA protagonist. Straight white male, fit, with brown hair.

I can somewhat understand why they stick to the same trope out of... Being comfortable. But they're failing to recognize people play video games because they're fun, not because they can be everyday handsome white man with brown hair.

I think that problem stems from the devs themselves. They're straight white males for the most part. And female devs historical get shit on or marginalized.

[–]oneLguy[S] 10ポイント11ポイント  (4子コメント)

Exactly. When the gaming industry and community is still composed mainly of young, heterosexual males, this is what you get.

[–]Zone_boy 5ポイント6ポイント  (2子コメント)

I can only hope the video game industry "grows up" in up-coming decade. I love video games and they were a major part of my childhood. My lack of friends as young child was filled with the adventures of the video game world. Later, that hobby got me friends who loved video games as much as I did.

Even though I don't play as much as I used to as a teen, I still enjoy the hobby. Video games had a huge cultural impact on me and others. And as an art form, I would like it see it grow and mature like any other entertainment medium.

What bothers me the most is video game culture. No only it spawned toxic shit like "causal" and "hardcore" video gamers. It spawn reactionary types that flipped their shit when video game does cosmetic change. <-- great video btw

Not to mention the whole GG movement.

[–]illeatyabrains 9ポイント10ポイント  (1子コメント)

The video game industry already is growing up, which is why we're seeing all this backlash from the manchildren. AAA developers are starting to treat women like real people (I know - shocking, right?) and the reactionaries see it as a conspiracy to take their games away.

[–]Zone_boy 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

I give you that. It is changing for the better, baby steps. But they're still steps in the right direction.

[–]n0ggy 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Isn't it a self-fulfilling prophecy though?

I'm pretty sure games could attract a new audience if they were made to be relateable by this said audience.

[–]lurker093287h 4ポイント5ポイント  (14子コメント)

Men come in so many different flavors. They can be smart, badass, ugly, weird, fat, evil, good, and sexy. Women just get sexy. :|

I'm not so sure that this is 100% true, there are evil women, smart women, spirited 'spunky' women, etc they are just mostly portrayed as also physically atractive and 'sexy' in some way. C-Viper, laura, mika and makoto are clearly different types of character from each other, but they are all 'sexy' aswell.

I mean this is sort of true of Japanese games, in Japan I don't think that 'sexiness' of that kind is taken as demeaning as much (which is another debate altogether) and stuff that is generally pandering to your audience demographics is totally fine, most characters are idealised in some way to appeal to the target audience. This seems true of pretty much all pop culture media aimed at younger people, stuff aimed at girls has really obvious fanservice in it also, up until recently it's been 'dashing princely' type stuff but it's also gratuitous abs shots and stuff like that.

Apart from in games that kind of thrive on their bad taste persona (like mortal kombat) I really can't think of an overly sexual main or main-ish character in a really big western game in the last few years, that wasn't also portrayed as a well rounded or fleshed out (for a computer game) character and where there were other negative female characters who weren't sexy. I think you could say the witcher had really 'sexy' girl characters, but a few of the guy ones were straight out of romance novels and there were evil haggered witches and stuff.

I don't think it's that bad considering the audience, but I do agree that 'idealised' women appear in stuff aimed at men more frequently than men in stuff aimed at women. I think one reason for this is that holding women to the same standards that male characters are usually created by; i.e. ugly = evil or ugly = goon or comic relief would yield a higher level of criticism. Like imagine a game where some evil ugly lady is trying to blow up the world (or some other generic plot) and she has a clan of mostly lady goons who you have to murder to stop her, that would end up all over themaysue.com and all that stuff.

[–]Zone_boy 4ポイント5ポイント  (13子コメント)

I'm not so sure that this is 100% true, there are evil women, smart women, spirited 'spunky' women, etc they are just mostly portrayed as also physically atractive and 'sexy' in some way. C-Viper, laura, mika and makoto are clearly different types of character from each other, but they are all 'sexy'.

I agree, but that's what takes away from the characters. When all the female characters have undertone to be sexy that's the problem.

I mean this is sort of true of Japanese games,

I did mention this, Japan panders a lot. And it is something they kinda always done. When discussing/understand Japanese video games, one has to know something about Japanese culture. Through I can't really comment on Japanese culture. I don't know enough about it.

stuff aimed at girls has really obvious fanservice

That is true, I'm not arguing that fanservice is bad. But it's completely disportionate in video games.

I don't think it's that bad considering the audience

The audience is half men and women.

I think one reason for this is that holding women to the same standards that male characters are usually created by; i.e. ugly = evil or ugly = goon or comic relief would yield a higher level of criticism.

That's tends to be the standard but it's the case. Ugly, pathetic, fat male characters can be heros. While women are typically sexy despite being evil or good. I can't think of single "ugly" female character in ANY medium.

[–]lurker093287h 1ポイント2ポイント  (12子コメント)

that's what takes away from the characters. When all the female characters have undertone to be sexy that's the problem.

I don't really see this as any different from the heavy tendency of male characters in stuff aimed at women to be physically attractive and act in a way that women find alluring. Edit: like in (what I've seen of) modern teen dramas like Teen Wolf, they have a variety of characters but the main male ones are all 'sexy' aswell as x other characteristic.

The audience is half men and women.

I really don't think that this is even close to being true for street fighter, stuff like it or most 'aaa action' games. Stuff I've seen for those genres looks like between 70 and 90% of players are male with a large plurality being younger teens and early 20s males. For other genres it's different and there are some that girls are the overwhelming majority in, it seems like novels, in stuff aimed at guys you will have different types of characters and a different 'imagined audience' from stuff aimed at girls.

I see it as like expecting the guys in ya novels or romance novels to not be 'sexy' or appealing to women, the genres audience is going to lead to some kind of drift towards that, but outside of it in stuff that has a different audience characters will be different or more neutral. That seems somewhat true from a quick glance at the genres that women play most of all. Like in Japan 'interactive visual novels' and 'dating sims' are amongst the most popular genres of games for girls and the male characters reflect that by being obviously designed to be alluring to them. I just don't see that as so different from 'sexy' stuff in street fighter.

Ugly, pathetic, fat male characters can be heroes. While women are typically sexy despite being evil or good. I can't think of single "ugly" female character in ANY medium.

If you're talking about just 'character' there are loads. Do you mean protagonist or main character, because there are loads I can think of a few who're supposed to be ugly or 'plain' from novels (jayne ayre, Benny' from circle of friends, etc), interstingly these are usually portrayed by attractive women in film. If you're talking about actresses I think that this will get into an argument about how attractive (or not) certain actresses are, but just an example, I think that amy schumer and lena dunham are basically the equivalent of the 'average' male comedian protagonist characters who date girls way more attractive than them. But it's interesting, in the ya and romance novels I remember it is extremely common for the protagonist to be described as 'average' or 'just pretty' and this is supposed to be aimed at getting the audience to relate. I think it's comparable to similar stuff aimed at guys.

[–]Zone_boy 2ポイント3ポイント  (11子コメント)

Edit: like in (what I've seen of) modern teen dramas like Teen Wolf, they have a variety of characters but the main male ones are all 'sexy' aswell as x other characteristic.

Off topic. We're talking about video games and how WOMEN are portrayed.

I feel you don't see the different between objectified and power fantasy. Just because Men have abs in power fantasy and men, women find attractive doesn't mean they're the same thing.

Top of that, Those examples you listed have male characters that are fleshed out. They have depth, they're no purely there to be gawked at.

I really don't think that this is even close to being true for street fighter, stuff like it or most 'aaa action' games.

Women can enjoy SF as much as men. It's gaming culture that deters women from being noticed. I know plenty of women that enjoy AAA FPS like halo and CoD. And those series pander directly to power fantasy and military porn. Typical "guy" stuff. I think you don't hang around enough women.

Yes, women do play video games

For other genres it's different and there are some that girls are the overwhelming majority in, it seems like novels, in stuff aimed at guys you will have different types of characters and a different 'imagined audience' from stuff aimed at girls.

off Topic, we're talking about portrayal of women in video games.

I think you're missing the point of my posts. I only brought up SF as an example. A glance at the rooster illustrates my point.

I'm not hating on fan service or even sexy characters. I'm saying there is no diversity. Women in video games are often viewed as sexual objects than a flesh out character.

And it's funny when you compare it to novels and dating sims. Those characters are fleshed out and stand out more than sexy avatar.

If you're talking about just 'character' there are loads

Ha.

Do you mean protagonist or main character, because there are loads I can think of a few who're supposed to be ugly or 'plain' from novels

I'm talking about main characters.... and again.. we're talking about video games. Not smut. Which basically novelized porn.

I think you missed my entire point. Because basically you're argument is:

Video games are for men. That's why women are sexualized. It's for us. LOOK! Women have sexualized men on the covers of their smut. TWILIGHT! 50 SHADES OF GREY! Same thing! Video games are for men!

[–]lurker093287h 0ポイント1ポイント  (10子コメント)

Hey sorry for the late reply, somehow this got lost in my inbox.

Off topic. We're talking about video games and how WOMEN are portrayed...Women can enjoy SF as much as men...Yes, women do play video games...you're argument is: Video games are for men. That's why women are sexualized. It's for us. LOOK!

My point was generally that the type of characters that are at least somewhat common in some genres of games are common because of the demographics of the audience. There are lots of genres of games that have high female player percentages, but it seems like action games with little social element (or a high competitive quotient) and a long play time are not among them. Sim games, HOPA games, music based and party games, drop in drop out platformers, puzzle games online gambling and some mmorpg's all seem to have large playerbases. These typically don't feature all that many characters that are 'sexy' for guys, but the genres where guys are a big majority of the audience do more often, the audience doesn't seem to change when games make a big effort to engage with female players (like mass effect, and DMC).

Scifi/fantasy is interesting because apart from 'cross overs' fantasy/scifi books that are popular with female audiences (or the most popular ones that I'm familiar with) also have elements of other genres where there is more of a female audience; The hunger games is dystopian scifi plus ya novel tropes (and battle royale), something similar is true of fantasy stuff like the mortal instruments series. While the 'hard scifi' stuff (I think) still has somewhat of a male majority audience. I think that similar things are going on with game mechanics and play styles that is dictating the audience for 'aaa' action games and that then leads to average character archetypes.

I'm saying there is no diversity. Women in video games are often viewed as sexual objects than a flesh out character.

I don't really think this is particularly true. here is martha nussbaum's definition of 'objectification' which is the least nebulous that I've come across

According to the philosopher Martha Nussbaum, a person is objectified if one or more of the following properties are applied to them:

  • Instrumentality – treating the person as a tool for another's purposes
  • Denial of autonomy – treating the person as lacking in autonomy or self-determination
  • Inertness – treating the person as lacking in agency or activity
  • Fungibility – treating the person as interchangeable with (other) objects
  • Violability – treating the person as lacking in boundary integrity and violable, "as something that it is permissible to break up, smash, break into."
  • Ownership – treating the person as if they can be owned, bought, or sold
  • Denial of subjectivity – treating the person as if there is no need for concern for their experiences or feelings

Apart from the problems of this not being really different from the older, non sexual kantian objectification (and many regular jobs qualifying) and those of applying something that is meant for actual people onto fictional characters, this seems to not really apply to any of the characters of street fighter or most of the other games I've seen. How is Camay denied subjectivity more than ryu and ken etc.

I'm talking about main characters.... and again.. we're talking about video games. Not smut. Which basically novelized porn.

Oh I see you're talking about games not books or films here. What I would say ()again I guess) is that in almost all media the majority audience dictates the gender and race of the protagonist, in genres of film and books with high female audiences the protagonists are usually women and the romantic lead is usually an attractive man. Why would you think this would be different in genres of games that have a 70%+ male playerbase? Also I'm not sure how many overly sexy girl characters there are in mainstream 'aaa' games, the ones in Japan are somewhat different because of the different culture, pandering is ok etc.

I don't think that teen dramas, ya novels or romance novels are 'smut' also, some of them are but most of them aren't just there to get off to. But you can usually tell by the archetypes, character and story set up who they are aimed at and who is the main audience.

[–]Zone_boy 0ポイント1ポイント  (9子コメント)

My point was generally that the type of characters that are at least somewhat common in some genres of games are common because of the demographics of the audience.

So because if demographic shews towards males, women in games should be seen as sexual objects?

There are lots of genres of games that have high female player percentages

Yeah.. oddly enough to don't have many women being sexual objects in those games.

but it seems like action games with little social element (or a high competitive quotient) and a long play time are not among them

Jeez, I wonder why. Could be blatant sexism, women being treated as sexual objects, or could be culture surrounding them. I'm sure you know about the "fake gamer girl". Where women have to "prove" themselves as "gamers", yeah.....I'm sure that has nothing to do with it.

Sim games, HOPA games, music based and party games, puzzle games online gambling and some mmorpg's all seem to have large playerbases.

Well, those games don't come toxic gamer culture. They're fun. That's why people play them, those games having a large women demo is because of the lack of toxic culture around them.

While the 'hard scifi' stuff (I think) still has somewhat of a male majority audience Scifi/fantasy is interesting because apart from 'cross overs' fantasy/scifi books that are popular with female audiences (or the most popular ones that I'm familiar with) also have elements of other genres where there is more of a female audience; The hunger games is dystopian scifi plus ya novel tropes (and battle royale), something similar is true of fantasy stuff like the mortal instruments series

You're speaking very, very broadly. And not even about video games. We're talking about "Video gaming culture has a legitimate problem with sexualizing women in games."

While the 'hard scifi' stuff (I think) still has somewhat of a male majority audience. I think that similar things are going on with game mechanics and play styles that is dictating the audience for 'aaa' action games and that then leads to average character archetypes.

  1. Name one "hardcard AAA scfi" game. (hint: They don't exist)

  2. average character archetypes.

Yeah, men get basic character archetypes. Women get smurfette.

here is martha nussbaum's definition of 'objectification' which is the least nebulous that I've come across

yeah.... Either you don't know what nebulous means or you're willing ignoring what objection is. You need to watch Tropes vs Women season 1. Anita Sarkeesian breaks it down very simply with tons of examples. But I'm sure you're freaking out because I told you watch, which is probably, your SJW boogie man.

How is Camay denied subjectivity more than ryu and ken etc.

Yeah... I'm going to straight up and insult you. You're fucking dumb. With your page of words you managed to say nothing more than your last post.

Oh I see you're talking about games not books or films here.

Sigh

in genres of film and books with high female audiences the protagonists are usually women and the romantic lead is usually an attractive man.

Attractive =/= objectified. Holy shit. You must be delusional.

Also I'm not sure how many overly sexy girl characters there are in mainstream 'aaa' games,

Easy, all of them.

Now, name AAA game with female protagonist that isn't half naked. (Including DLC skins.)

I don't think that teen dramas, ya novels or romance novels are 'smut'

Yep. I agree on that, you don't do a lot of thinking.

But you can usually tell by the archetypes, character and story set up who they are aimed at and who is the main audience.

So you're whole post, once again, is:

"Video games are for men. That's why women are objectified."

You're almost hopeless. Also, this message didn't get lost in your inbox. You waited for the thread to die down so no one will downvote you.

[–]lurker093287h 0ポイント1ポイント  (8子コメント)

I guess we don't really have any common ground here so it's pointless to argue anymore, unless you want to (I'm going to choose to ignore your insults). But I found it strange that you think that martha nussbaum (one of the pre-eminant feminist philosophers) is a less authoritative source on objectification than anita sarkesian. And generally that it is a set in stone fact that should be applied to fictional characters and is not subjective.

I remember watching some of sarkesian's videos and it seemed nebulous to me, but sort of equivalent to being depicted 'as guys want to see someone' and 'secondary sexual characteristics emphasised above all else, maybe not wearing much and maybe being passive' or something like that (I can't remember). what does it mean to you.

Attractive =/= objectified. Holy shit. You must be delusional.

The being attractive is also commonly achieved through lavish descriptions of their physical appearance (I thought I said this but maybe it was elsewhere in this thread) and they are generally being depicted 'as women want to see them' in a way that guy's don't like. I think this is the non rhetorical version of 'objectification'

Easy, all of them. Now, name AAA game with female protagonist that isn't half naked.

Just of the top of my head; Amita, Yuma and most of the other female characters from far cry 4, Ripley from alien isolation, clara lille from watch dogs, irene angel (the evil nazi) and anya from wolfenstien, lara croft from the latest tomb raider (unless you think a vest and trousers is half naked), isabeau and laskshmi from the order 1886, Elena and chloe from the uncharted series, almost all the female characters in the smash bros games and mario ones. I think that most 'aaa' games basically follow the character direction of modern big budget films, there is not really very many scantily clad female characters in them if they're not Japanese, campy or intentionally vulgar. I think this is also presupposing that women don't like the kind of campy 'sexiness' that is common in those kind of games, most of the most popular music performers play up to some kind of 'sexy' image etc.

Jeez, I wonder why. Could be blatant sexism, women being treated as sexual objects...Well, those games don't come toxic gamer culture. They're fun. That's why people play them, those games having a large women demo is because of the lack of toxic culture around them.

iirc competition is one factor in why girls don't play competitive online games more often, but so are game mechanics and other stuff that doesn't fit in with what you're saying. imo it's more that girls would rather do other things that they like more and are more 'mainstream' for girls, girls competitive sports (where there are no men) also have this problem with retaining players after puberty iirc. Also have you ever played online bingo (or a few of the other online gambling games that are popular with women), my aunt does. I can tell you it is pretty cut throat, sort of like league of legends for older women.

So basically what I think you're saying is equivalent to 'why aren't there much more unattractive men as romantic heroes, or characters that appeal to men in ya or 'chick lit' novels.

[–]Zone_boy -1ポイント0ポイント  (7子コメント)

But I found it strange that you think that martha nussbaum (one of the pre-eminant feminist philosophers) is a less authoritative source on objectification than anita sarkesian.

I only mentioned Anita Sarkesian because her videos about women tropes in video games is actually relevant.

I think you're failing to see what objectified means. You gave a list of what it means, but yet don't see it yourself. You need examples. You need help understanding what objectifying people means.

And generally that it is a set in stone fact that should be applied to fictional characters and is not subjective.

I don't even understand what this vomit was.

I remember watching some of sarkesian's videos and it seemed nebulous to me

Makes sense because you're understand of objectifying is just as nebulous. Man, did you learn that word? You're wearing it out like high school english teacher.

The being attractive is also commonly achieved through lavish descriptions of their physical appearance

No, no, no.

Amita, Yuma and most of the other female characters from far cry 4,

Not protagonists. Do you know what protagonist means?

Ripley from alien

Based off a movie that was praised for having women has their action lead.

clara lille from watch dogs,

lara croft

You're a riot.

The rest of your examples are trash. They're not protagonist. They're either minor NPC, or side characters. Smash Bros doesn't count because the story doesn't have protagonist.

I think that most 'aaa' games basically follow the character direction of modern big budget films, there is not really very many scantily clad female characters in them

yeah, movies actually matured and stopped using women as pure eye candy. They get fleshed out as actual characters.

iirc competition is one factor in why girls don't play competitive online games more often

So I guess all women sports don't exist. Because they're not competitive.

mo it's more that girls would rather do other things that they like more and are more 'mainstream' for girls, girls competitive sports

what does that even mean?

also have this problem with retaining players after puberty iirc.

Where do all these "ircc" come from? Out of your ass? Cause it seems like it.

Also have you ever played online bingo (or a few of the other online gambling games that are popular with women), my aunt does. I can tell you it is pretty cut throat, sort of like league of legends for older women.

Yeah, the "causal" market is full of women for many different reasons. One, causal markets don't have the gamer culture attracted to it. It's approachable. They tend to be women friendly. It's hard to sexualize match 3 games and card games.

So basically what I think you're saying is equivalent to 'why aren't there much more unattractive men as romantic heroes, or characters that appeal to men in ya or 'chick lit' novels.

Nah, you're fucking dumb and reading into what you want to read. I'm done with this conversation. It's like talking to a wall or typical GG-er.

[–]lurker093287h 0ポイント1ポイント  (6子コメント)

I guess it is pointless to argue, but I don't think you've stated your terms for what 'objectification' is or what is an 'objectified character' is and instead are just getting mad at my answers questioning your terms etc. That really is the most comprehensive and non rhetorical definition that I've seen. Why are you so mad here also

lara croft You're a riot.

What is objectified about lara croft in the last game, she is wearing a tank top and trousers that you see people on the street wear in summer.

also if you meant protagonists you said

I'm talking about main characters

which commonly includes the protagonist and the supporting but still main characters, such as the love interest etc. But I guess this is semantics. Why do you think that the protagonist of ya novels aimed at girls are usually 'ordinary' girls and many of the other main characters are hot guys? which kind of feeds into

No, no, no.

good points there pal.

Also you were atributing the lack of girls playing 'aaa' games to 'toxic gaming culture' or something like that, I said

"imo it's more that girls would rather do other things that they like more and are more 'mainstream' for girls, girls competitive sports (where there are no men) also have this problem with retaining players after puberty iirc."

meaning if this is true why do sports that girls play with other girls (no toxic culture there) see a somewhat similar drop off in players after puberty, when people start defining their adult selves. This is an example against your idea. I remember also a report that suggests that sports are not considered a 'mainstream' activity by girls themselves and the 'social pull factor' of more traditional female pass times (like being in a band, acting, dancing, etc) is a major factor in the lack of female sport players after puberty.

Where do all these "ircc" come from? Out of your ass? Cause it seems like it.

I am a fan of computer games, am fascinated by gender politics and like arguing about this kind of stuff. Here is a big list of available surveys of who plays what, here is an interview with a HOPA publisher who says that

our audience is global, more than 80 percent female, and so engaged that on any given day, we distribute 1.5 million games

[–]cannibalysm 4ポイント5ポイント  (7子コメント)

What about Makoto, Sakura, and Ibuki? While they may be sexy to specific fetishes, their original intention doesn't seem to be sexualization (barring a couple of alts, of course) but I really could be wrong about that. Capcom seems to be a bit less terrible about sexualization biases than other corporations, in general, at least in regard to SF and RE, but overall, I completely agree that the sexualization problem is rooted in a lack of diversity in plenty of cases.

[–]Zone_boy 6ポイント7ポイント  (6子コメント)

Makoto, Sakura, and Ibuki?

Those are good examples. I will admit my knowledge of street fighter is limited. The most recent title was 4 (before all the DLC and updates).

I call them good examples because they're not super sexualized, but they're still sexual. As a kid I enjoy playing as sakura because one of her attacks briefly shown her panties. Also she had an attack that was literally throwing her ass at her opponent. (Which made me die laughing when I would spam that attack against my brother.) I'm getting off topic, lol, my point is that animators could of easily avoided showing her panties in her attacks, they instead focused on them.

Of course this is japan. They are the ultimate form of pandering of school girls fetish and pantie shots.

Makoto and Ibuki are cool designs but still suffer from being sexualized in their offical artwork.

Even the more conservative female characters get sexualized in their offical artwork.

When I start seeing Ryu and Ken posing like this in their offical artwork. I will call it even.

[–]lurker093287h 2ポイント3ポイント  (5子コメント)

That art of makoto is not official it's fan art, this is the original, the one of Ibuki is also from a comic that is official, but it wasn't used for the game art.

I guess that I would concede that makoto is a 'waifu' type character and that almost all of the female characters in street fighter are drawn/designed to be physically attractive for people who find girls attractive. I think this is normal for Japanese media, including media aimed at women (except they aren't into knickers but 'dashing princes' with strong arms, swishy hair and abs etc). And I guess is also normal for the same over here but slightly different specific pandering.

animators could of easily avoided showing her panties in her attacks, they instead focused on them.

This is relatively common in anime and manga and iirc, I've always wondered how it's seen there compared to here, somebody told me it's thought of as 'naughty' and is supposed to be light hearted most of the time but I'm not sure.

[–]Zone_boy 4ポイント5ポイント  (4子コメント)

I'm aware how the Japanese approach character design. They pander a lot and has to do with their own culture. I only mention street fighter because diversity factor. When compared to their male counterparts, the difference is startlingly.

But since SF has made cultural impact on the world and as well as the video game culture. It's worth mentioning.

As an ex-weebo I'm all too aware manga/anime tropes and how often they bleed into other parts of their culture.

[–]meikyoushisui 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

That's really off the mark. I lived in Japan and speak Japanese -- you have to understand that the reason for this is often because these games are designed for one particular group.

I don't think manga or anime tropes bleed into other parts of Japanese culture really at all.

[–]Zone_boy 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Fair enough. I'm outsider to Japanese culture and my view is skewed from the media I consumed or seen. In another post I mention I don't really know much about Japanese culture outside some products.

Thank you for chiming in.

[–]lurker093287h 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

I agree, but what do you think of the idea that the girl characters are generally designed to be appealing to the 'target audience' and the (in this case I think probably overwhelming) majority audience tends to dictate how characters look. I think this is clearly true in stuff aimed at girls, but girls just find different stuff attractive. I would say that (some) boys seem to have a similar dislike of the overly brooding and romantic characters in teen girl fiction (for example) as (some) girls do for 'sexy' stuff that boys like.

But there also seems to be some ambiguity with the brooding romantic hero somewhat resembling heroes in stuff for guys sometimes and the 'sexy' girls somewhat resembling 'sexy' female singers who's primary audience is female sometimes. Like I would imagine that mika's outfit would be close to something that katy perry would wear.

[–]Zone_boy 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

I agree, but what do you think of the idea that the girl characters are generally designed to be appealing to the 'target audience' and the (in this case I think probably overwhelming) majority audience tends to dictate how characters look. I think this is clearly true in stuff aimed at girls, but girls just find different stuff attractive. I would say that (some) boys seem to have a similar dislike of the overly brooding and romantic characters in teen girl fiction (for example) as (some) girls do for 'sexy' stuff that boys like.

You missed the entire point of my posts. Please read my other posts in this thread.

And Also we're talking about portrayal of women in video games.

Also, I think you can not tell the difference between a male power fantasy and being sexual objectified.

[–]GoonieBasterd 20ポイント21ポイント  (2子コメント)

Video gaming culture is a problem.

[–]AntonioOfFlorence 8ポイント9ポイント  (0子コメント)

Video gaming culture is a problem.

I'm a hetero white male and I can barely stand it most of the time. I can't imagine what it must be like to be a woman or a non-white race while trying to fit in or enjoy games and gaming culture.

[–]n0ggy 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yep. I'm a huge nerd and gamer but I stay away as far as I can from gaming culture.

[–]Lanceaway 9ポイント10ポイント  (2子コメント)

Now something I'd like to point out here, just to expand the scope of the conversation, is that for however much progress we make towards gender/sex representation in games in the west, there will be the separate issue of the japanese/eastern game market and how it decides to portray its characters. My experience with japan's design sensibilities indicates heavily that they are favoring more and more explicit sexualization, and not less. (Fire Emblem's transition from modestly presented strategy to waifu simulator is a sad indication indeed.)

So when you take something like Overwatch that is intended for marketing on a global scale, I feel like the sticky idea of differing ideas about sexualization across cultures become much more important. Not that it isn't a problem, but rather, it becomes such a wide problem that I'm not sure what to suggest. If it's cross-culturally profitable, how does one propose a point of moral or social responsibility in opposition to it?

[–]oneLguy[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Hmm, an interesting point. No doubt Japan is a whole 'nother segment of popular culture rife with disproportionate sexualization of females.

[–]DeadNames 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

You have to realize that most Japanese content creators are pandering to a super specific fanbase: young boys.

[–]StumbleOn 49ポイント50ポイント  (7子コメント)

I wonder how many gamergate babies read this sub and are going to tell you that ackshually you are wrong.

The only nitpick is that it isn't necessarily the sexualization which is SO bad, but rather the objectification. Men get sexy and powerful, women are sexy objects to look at, kill, rape, kill some more, win, trade like literal trophies, etc. There are only a few powerful women who use sex in video games, and those are still poor examples as a whole.

In the surrounding culture, it becomes a cesspool. Women gamers straight up don't go into spaces filled with all men much of the time. Why? Because the gross disgusting shit they have to put up with is too much.

THANKFULLY, despite the internet becoming worse, the real world is getting better. Corner Gamestore used to be 100% dudes, now it's nearly 50/50, and you can actually (GaSP SHOCK AWE) be a woman and even work there and not ALWAYS have to worry about Le Gentlesir Mansplaining how ackshually Mario Brothers 2 is Doki Doki Panic reskinned and the original is FAR more euphoric if only your tiny female brain could understand.

That still does happen. Just not as much. Also happens to men, but much more rarely and usually not with the same level of patronizing condescension.

[–]lunetron 16ポイント17ポイント  (6子コメント)

I don't think very many gamergate neckbeards even know what Doki Doki Panic is, any more than the average Michael Bay fan knows what something like The Seventh Seal is. Only big budget first person shooters and action games are on their radar.

[–]StumbleOn 4ポイント5ポイント  (3子コメント)

I like things a little retro.

[–]lunetron 5ポイント6ポイント  (2子コメント)

I mostly pay attention to indie games, while retrogaming is my big passion as far as all of that goes. I have a small but diverse collection of stuff right now.

The funny thing is, in my experience, most gamergate types tend to ignore retro and indie stuff. They talk and talk about gaming as an art form, but don't care about either the classics of the genre, nor about the most interesting, expressive, and avante-garde stuff being produced today.

To use the film analogy again, it would be like someone who claims to value film as an artistic medium, but the only films they care about are things like the Transformers flicks and the Marvel films (the latter of which are not bad) while turning their nose up at older films just because they aren't in color.

[–]StumbleOn 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

The funny thing is, in my experience, most gamergate types tend to ignore retro and indie stuff.

Very much so. All kinds of stuff to say about AAA titles (Which are fine!) but never venturing in the Super Spooky indie titles. I mean, you may come across a totally political skeleton game if you go off the beaten path!

[–]lunetron 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

Totally. I recall that a lot of people seemed to despise some of the recent graphic adventure games for being too skeletal. In the past few years there was that episodic one, about the photographer and time travel, I think. I haven't tried it, but I recall seeing a bunch of people bitch about it because of the identity of the characters and nature of the game.

Same with another one about someone exploring an abandoned house.

[–]ostrich_semen 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Doki Doki Panic

You mean Super Mario Bros 2?

[–]lunetron 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Well, I'm not even the one that brought it up, but that game was indeed a different game before it became SMB2. It's an interesting bit of trivia.

[–]FarticOx 30ポイント31ポイント  (6子コメント)

Yeah I was browsing /r/overwatch this morning and I was really disappointed with the community there. There were so many posts raging at Blizzard for taking away a victory pose for the character Tracer after some of the public complained it was over-sexualized.

[–]oneLguy[S] 28ポイント29ポイント  (3子コメント)

The Overwatch community was actually what 'inspired' me to make this post.

I was looking at the fan content that had been made so far, and at least 80% of it was sexualized fanart of Tracer, Widowmaker, or Mei. And we're talking explicit, over-sized boobs-and-butt pose sexualized. And I remember thinking "And there are people who think this ISN'T a problem?"

I get it, people on the internet will sexualize video game characters. But when it's so pervasive in the community that fans who might actually not be interested can't avoid it, and when it's so exaggerated even for a game that has NOTHING to do with sex, and when it's solely females being sexualized... come on, this is a problem.

[–]FarticOx 9ポイント10ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yeah exactly. It makes me sad. There's so much wonderful comment from "Bastion, amirite?" to awesome PotG stuff...but... then there's just "how DARE Blizzard implicitly challenge my right to use female characters as objects in my [pathetic] fantasy?!?!?!?" followed by shitposts about looking at Widowmaker's butt.

[–]mitchell271 8ポイント9ポイント  (0子コメント)

I had a similar feeling while reading through it a few days ago. It's really unfortunate, especially since the game is trying to pose itself as a fun-for-all-the-family kind of game in terms of aesthetics.

[–]WintermuteWintermute 13ポイント14ポイント  (0子コメント)

I think the worst part about all that is that Blizzard didn't remove it because it was oversexualzing Tracer and the author of that original forum post wasn't complaining about oversexualization. They brought up that particular victory pose and how it didn't fit Tracer's personality. Tracer's fast, fluid, dynamic, bubbly, friendly, and that pose felt uninspired to them (because it was). Blizzard went "Yeah, we can do better," did better, and are apparently "brainwashed SJW cucks" because they have pride in their work and listened to a critique they agreed with.

[–]UOUPv2 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

That Extra Credits video on the subject summed it up perfectly for me.

[–]RYCBAR 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

I also think it's very frustrating how it seems to have this feedback loop where people stop playing video games because of shit like this, so the only people left are the shitheads who love it, who make more video games with oversexualized women, which alienates more people and so on.

I saw you already mentioned Overwatch, so to keep this in the Blizzard family, there was a good amount of backlash over the new character design for Sylvanas Windrunner in the upcoming World of Warcraft expansion. She's augmenting the usual leggings plus a metal bikini by adding a lot heavier armor on her shoulders and legs and some leather-looking armor covering her stomach.

People were really mad about this, especially the stomach armor. Two expansions ago, this character was killed by being shot in her unarmored stomach. She has necromancers working for her, so she came back, but still. She canonically can't do that many more times.

If anything, it would have made more sense for her to start wearing more armor after that, given that she's typically characterized the clever, ruthless, prepared for anything kind of person. BUT THIS IS CLEARLY AN EXAMPLE OF LE EVIL FEMINIZMSZ RUINING VIDEO GAMES

[–]ostrich_semen 5ポイント6ポイント  (6子コメント)

Sexualization and Objectification are different things. The inclusion of sexual content involving women isn't the problem. The problem is that that sexual content is explicitly processed, purified, and packaged for a straight male to consume. That is, processed for maximum bonerage, purified of things which might kill the boner, and presented in a way that fuels the boner.

[–]oneLguy[S] 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Another good point. Sex appeal is a part of media: it's entertaining to see and play as good-looking people in video games. But the pervasiveness of the sexualization, being explicitly designed to tittilate the male audience at the expense of characterization, realism, good taste, and the sensitivities of other audience members (like women and queer people)... that's where I object.

Having some sexy chicks in your game isn't a problem; it's throwing their boobs and asses around the screen all the time and deliberately placing them in a sexual state at all times that is the problem.

[–]mjociv 0ポイント1ポイント  (4子コメント)

The "problem" is that products intended for a specific demographic are designed and decorated in a manner that will appeal to that demographic?

If there is such a huge market within the video game industry, outside of the young male demographic, that currently gets little to no attention from the video game industry why not make a game for them yourself?

[–]ostrich_semen 2ポイント3ポイント  (3子コメント)

If there is such a huge market within the video game industry, outside of the young male demographic, that currently gets little to no attention from the video game industry why not make a game for them yourself?

People do make games outside the young male demographic, and they're wildly successful, and subsequently panned by the vanguards of the young male demographic.

[–]mjociv 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

If the first two parts are true why does the third matter? If the games exist and sell well why do the opinions of the young men whom the game is not intended for matter? They don't seem to care, or really even notice, the opinion others have of them and their games.

[–]ostrich_semen 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

If the games exist and sell well why do the opinions of the young men whom the game is not intended for matter?

We're talking about the same vanguards that have been harassing a female game developer for two years with the express goal of making her kill herself, right?

[–]mjociv -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

There are millions of men under the age of 30 who regularly entertain themselves through the medium of video games. Do I think all of them harassed Zoe Quinn? No. I think fewer than 5% of those guys even knows who she is.

Harassment is a crime and we're both in agreement that it's wrong. I'm not understanding the point you're making, if you actually have one.

[–]socialjusticeorc 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

The idea that you can't sell a game unless it has underage tit girls on it is mad sexist towards dudes as well, I might add.