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Subreddit PolicySubreddit Policy Reminder on Transgender Topics (self.science)

natePhD | Organic Chemistry[M] が 投稿

/r/science has a long-standing zero-tolerance policy towards hate-speech, which extends to people who are transgender as well. Our official stance is that transgender is not a mental illness, and derogatory comments about transgender people will be treated on par with sexism and racism, typically resulting in a ban without notice.

With this in mind, please represent yourselves well during our AMA on transgender health tomorrow.

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[–]ImNotJesusGrad Student | Social Psychology[M] [スコア非表示] stickied comment (66子コメント)

To clarify, we are not banning the discussion of any individual topic nor are we saying that the science in any area is settled. What we are saying is that we stand with the rest of the scientific community and every relevant psych organisation that the overwhelming bulk of evidence is that being trans is not a mental illness and that the discussion of trans people as somehow "sick" or "broken" is offensive and bigoted1. We won't stand for it.

We've long held that we won't host discussion of anti-science topics without the use of peer-reviewed evidence. Opposing the classification of being transgender as 'not a mental illness'2 is treated the same way as if you wanted to make anti-vax, anti-global warming or anti-gravity comments.

To be clear, scientific discussion is the use of empirical evidence and theory to guide knowledge based on debate in academic journals. Yelling at each other in a comments section of a forum is in no way "scientific discussion". If you wish to say that any well accepted scientific position is wrong, I encourage you to do the work and publish something on the topic. Until then, your opinions are just that - opinions.

1 Some have wrongly interpreted this statement as "stigmatizing" mental illness. As someone who both has devoted his life to psychology and had a mental illness, I can assure you that is the last thing we are trying to do here. What we are trying to stop is the label of "mental illness" being used as a way to derogate a group. It's being used maliciously to say that there is something wrong with trans people and that's offensive both to mental illness sufferers and those in the trans community.

2 There is a difference between being trans and having gender dysphoria.

[–]slutzombie 906ポイント907ポイント  (205子コメント)

It seems like we're arguing over technicalities here. Gender dysphoria is a mental illness, but being transgender is not. So is the basis for the "stance" simply making the distinction that not all transgender people are dysphoric? Furthermore, why is being mentally ill considered "derogatory" and "hate speech"? If being trans and gender dysphoria are caused by neurological differences as these studies seem to suggest, would they not be considered mental illnesses? If not, then why is clinical depression (or anything other neurological condition) considered a mental illness, but being transgender is not?

[–]LumeneGrad Student|Applied Plant Sciences 721ポイント722ポイント  (108子コメント)

Furthermore, the statement that mental illness is "Derogatory" or "Hate Speech", works to further undo efforts to normalize the discussion of mental illness, and polarizes discussion.

Being mentally ill is not an icky, yucky immoral state of being. It's just like having a broken arm. We don't say that people with broken arms are immoral, or that pointing such out is "Hate Speech." To suggest that mental illness is different than physical ailments is precisely what advocates have been trying not to do for the last two decades.

The ideal way to discuss mental illness would be the above physical approach. Imagine a world where depression is treated the same as a cut on your forehead. Or paranoia the same as a surgery. This is where we are supposed to be aiming.

What we are not aiming for is to literally deny the existence of a problem, or to reclassify everything as to be "Unoffensive".

Additionally, the politicization of transgender topics is grating. What precisely is transgenderism minus dysphoria? Is it like being paraplegic with the full use of your legs? Or depression without anxiety, or death without the ceasing of life?

Don't be ashamed of having a mental illness. There's nothing to be ashamed of. You're broken, same as everything else in nature. There's always defect and diversity. Own it.

[–]StartupTim 164ポイント165ポイント  (11子コメント)

Don't be ashamed of having a mental illness. There's nothing to be ashamed of.

Well said.

[–]Yarr0w [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Yea this mod post made me extremely uncomfortable, and seems anti-progressive which I think was opposite from what was intended. This whole decision is one giant slam to people suffering from mental illnesses.

How dare we group transgenders with people who are actually broken, that's hate speach. No it isn't, its symantics and they are both groups of people who deserve fair recognition regardless of if they're one in the same or not. And yet the mod's post is equating recognizing mental illness with hate speach like there's something fundementally wrong with "those" people but not transfender ones.

This whole thing just disgusts me.

[–]The_Serious_Account 8ポイント9ポイント  (1子コメント)

At least one reason you can't call it a mental illness is that it has to cause distress and lowering in the quality of life to fit that definition. I'm sure that happens a lot and many trans people certainly do seem to struggle with mental illnesses. But you can't rule out some people are living good lives as transgender. I didn't like the tone that was used about mental illness as either. /u/ImNotJesus makes it sound like suggesting someone might be mentally ill is one of the most offensive things you can do. I hate when people promote this stigmatized view of mental illness.

[–]Hedoin [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

I was rolling my eyes til I saw these two comments, put better than I have could. I have no idea why this is up for debate in the first place.

[–]originalpoopinbutt 26ポイント27ポイント  (33子コメント)

I think the idea is illnesses are inherently bad. You want an illness to go away. Of course no one who breaks their arm is a bad person, but we could all say the world and everyone in it would be much better off if we fixed every broken arm to a normal state. We could say the same about depression or schizophrenia. But can we about being transgender?

[–]brisk0 54ポイント55ポイント  (6子コメント)

Yes? A world where everyone is born into the body they fit in is a pretty good world.

[–]Excalibursin [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

But that means the illness could be fixed entirely by only changing the body/physical features of the person, then was it really their mind that was damaged or ill?

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    [–]resfirestar 53ポイント54ポイント  (13子コメント)

    There's a line between gender dysphoria and being a transgender person... to use your words, we want the feelings of dysphoria to go away, and transitioning is one way to treat the problem.

    [–]Gruzman [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

    But can we about being transgender?

    The topic is too politicized to make any sense out of it. It's pure identitarianism at it's current stage. Interestingly enough, the further scientific research progresses in this area, the less vague the distinction of being transgender will become. We're still in the "wild west" of separating psychology and neurology from pure individualist relativist politics that have sustained the movement to this point. It has its use, but this might be a turning point in the discussion.

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        [–]Misantupe 10ポイント11ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Furthermore, why is being mentally ill considered "derogatory" and "hate speech"?

        This is the real problem. There's nothing wrong with being mentally ill. Most people have had a mental disorder in their lifetime.

        [–]BadBjjGuy 129ポイント130ポイント  (11子コメント)

        Politics and science. Never mix.

        [–]Anosognosia 15ポイント16ポイント  (4子コメント)

        Politics should be science as well. If we want to be governed or people want to govern effectivly they would be better at it if they applied evidence based thinking and analysis.
        It's kinda sad that so much of politics "public" face is still all rethoric and appealing to emotions. Especially since we know that behind the scenes there are lot of clever people trying to do their very best at actually achieving the goals. (unfortunately too large a part of the goals seem to be : get rich, get powerful or get reelected...)

        [–]iwhitt567 7ポイント8ポイント  (2子コメント)

        I don't see any politics.

        To clarify: Just because an issue is being debated in politics, doesn't mean the issue is in an way political. Transgender topics have existed since before the current debate.

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          [–]Reddisaurusrekts 13ポイント14ポイント  (0子コメント)

          Furthermore, why is being mentally ill considered "derogatory" and "hate speech"?

          Seems like shooting themselves in the foot, if they didn't want to stigmatise mental illness further.

          [–]falsehood 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

          Furthermore, why is being mentally ill considered "derogatory" and "hate speech"?

          I think the point is that "illness" is a "bad" state of being that is not normal. Trans people want others to know that they are healthy individuals, despite having the wrong body. It's a physical condition, but not "illness."

          [–]ooogr2i8 8ポイント9ポイント  (0子コメント)

          What do you mean by 'normal' because statistically speaking, most people aren't transgendered? In that respect, yes, transgendered people aren't normal.

          The issue isn't our words, it's our personal connations.

          [–]okwhatnowyousay 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

          |It seems like we're arguing over technicalities here.

          Technicalities?

          This is a good example of "a little bit of knowledge, is dangerous".

          Youre injecting confusion into the entire discussion by bringing up mental illness as a correlation.

          Way to go.

          This is the same type of confusing nonsense and ignorance that people try to inject into discussions of Gay Marriage as somehow making it possible for people to marry their dogs...

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            [–]a01chtra 447ポイント448ポイント  (49子コメント)

            I have several concerns with this as a doctor specialising in psychiatry.

            Firstly I want to make clear that transphobia is unacceptable and that it is obvious that this stance will reduce the ability of bigots to express their bigoted views. This is positive.

            But I think the whole "science says it's not mental illness so stop pretending it is" attitude demonstrates a fundamental misunderstanding of mental illness and the problem at hand. The DSM/ICD and indeed all of our treatment basically acknowledges that there is normal variation and then where that causes disability then there is value for treatment. You don't treat people who aren't basically mal-interacting or mal-coping. In this model there is no place for stigma, and two people with the exact same brain in different jobs or different friendship groups can be mentally healthy and mentally ill. This is the view I take and how I will guide my practice.

            The physical brain does not respect these definitions and when all of your body cells are sex-labelled one way, including the cells of your physical brain, but you are getting a subjective experience of a different sex, then there has been a technical error/mismatch and it is more likely in the higher processing of the brain than the chromosomes. That this error can cause or not cause pathology in different societal constructs appropriately changes the guidance for clinicians but absolutely should not limit debate or meaningful research into the - let's just say "error, or "mismatch".

            Most importantly in my view, raging against the diagnosis of mental illness as inherently negative is clearly extremely problematic in an age where we still see widespread stigma attached to mental illness. "Oh god we're not like them" is not the right stance and any official stance should at least clarify that there should be no stigma attached to mental health as after all the brain is just a squishy mass of cells which make errors just like any other part of the body.

            [–]Solsed 23ポイント24ポイント  (2子コメント)

            As someone who suffers with chronic depression, I agree with your last paragraph.

            I have a mental illness.

            This should/does not devalue me any more than having any other sort of illness would.

            Yes, there are some tasks and situations I struggle with, but the same would go for someone with a broken arm, or cancer.

            Calling me mentally ill should not be an insult, it should just be an acknowledgment.

            Implying that 'mentally unwell' is a bad thing to be called adds to the stigma that those of us with mental illnesses face.

            We need to normalise mental illness. It's the only way to overcome the stigma.

            [–]Berzerka 97ポイント98ポイント  (15子コメント)

            This is so important and well said. The fact that the word mental illness causess distress is the main issue, not that some people call transgenderism a mental illness.

            If someone called broken legs an illness, noone would be offended and the discussion would be about if broken legs actually classify as an illness.

            The fact that we cant act the same way about mental illness is the core issue, and post like this modpost is certainly not helping, only causing more stigma.

            [–]NotTenPlusPlease 32ポイント33ポイント  (13子コメント)

            The person is incorrect on the mismatch being solely subjective though.

            There is substantial biological evidence of transgenderism and transgender indicators. Here are a few research papers which should sway any honest individuals mind toward an understanding that there a observable biological differences:

            So it's not just a psychological issue as many seem to misunderstand.

            [–]Origami84 [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

            The psyche does not exist in a vacuum, its obvious there must be some biological cause of their mental problems. Hormone imbalance, stress in the area of the brain, whatever.

            [–]cosine83 [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

            I think one of the big questions is how many of those studies have had replication studies/peer review done to cement their results? I see so many studies lately that have amazing and elucidating results but a study is only good if its results can be replicated by an outside body. I'm not arguing against the biological nature of transgenderism but merely want to know if those studies actually had meaningful results once peer-reviewed.

            [–]NightmarePulse [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

            Any psychological issue is a biological one.

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                  [–]EndsInATangent 408ポイント409ポイント  (337子コメント)

                  So I understand that transgenderism is not a mental illness.

                  But gender dysphoria is still considered one, right? It's as much a mental illness as depression. Or are we going to split hairs and say it is just something that is normal but causes depression?

                  [–]sirjuicybooty 284ポイント285ポイント  (204子コメント)

                  Not trying to offend, but what's the difference? I was under the impression thay transgenderism was a product of dysphoria. Am I wrong in thinking that?

                  [–]An_Lochlannach 237ポイント238ポイント  (175子コメント)

                  From what I can tell from the dozens of seperate discussions going on in this thread, the "dysphoria" aspect of a male feeling female or vice versa is indeed considered a mental illness, as dysphoria suggests mental stress.

                  However, a transgender person who has made the change (be it by operation or otherwise) to become the person they believe they are, is said to have gotten over that dysphoria and therefore isn't suffering from any kind of illness.

                  Tl;dr: The struggle before the transformation is an illness, the transformation itself and the aftermath are not.

                  Or at least that's how I'm interpreting the general consensus here.

                  [–]darkflash26 77ポイント78ポイント  (68子コメント)

                  what if after the transformation, they are still not happy/ over their dysphoria?

                  [–]ReasonablyBadass 149ポイント150ポイント  (44子コメント)

                  Then their problem probably wasn't with their gender and they "misdiagnosed" the reason of their unhappiness.

                  Or they were a different gender and depressed.

                  Or a hundred other possibilities.

                  People are complicated.

                  [–]namesandfaces 46ポイント47ポイント  (2子コメント)

                  Or that current technology doesn't provide a good-enough transition to another sex. An important prong of "mental illness" is that a reasonable accommodation cannot be made to alleviate distress, and that partially depends on technology.

                  [–]InsertWittyReplyHere 23ポイント24ポイント  (6子コメント)

                  People are complicated

                  So why are we acting so goddamn absolute about it all? Isn't it more scientific to keep our minds open?

                  [–]Soltea 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

                  Because it's not about science, but politics. This kind of intolerance of differing political opinions have been spreading everywhere lately. This sub included.

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                    [–]PmMeFanFic 3ポイント4ポイント  (3子コメント)

                    Do trans people have a higher chance of suicide?

                    [–]NightmarePulse [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                    Yes. And it doesn't help when people like my brother are harassed and told to kill themselves for just trying to live. He isn't one of those people that is loud about his transition. He just made the choice and is going with it.

                    [–]DLiurro [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                    Higher rate, percentage wise.

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                      [–]Jesus390 9ポイント10ポイント  (26子コメント)

                      Well isnt that a huge deal? Are there a significant amount of people regretting surgery? I heard there were frequent instances of people reverting back. I dont remember the exact figures but I remember it was higher than I wouldve expected

                      [–]legsintheair 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

                      It is less than 1%. Usually even people with less desirable surgical outcomes are very satisfied. A 99% success rate is absurdly high for any surgery

                      [–]agriff1 4ポイント5ポイント  (6子コメント)

                      No. Very few people de-transition. Those that do get widely hyped by media. I'm trans and have never heard of a single trans woman who detransitions because they learn they're not trans. Oftentimes when people consider it the reasons have to do with the amount of discrimination they gave for being trans and fears for their safety, and/or concerns about the cost of prescriptions and concern for their ability to meet their material needs

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                          [–]webtwopointno 5ポイント6ポイント  (1子コメント)

                          sadly if they are still uncomfortable in their bodies there are not many more options..

                          [–]phorgewerk 5ポイント6ポイント  (2子コメント)

                          This can happen (and sorry its 2 am and I have a trip in the morning so I cant be arsed to cite it right now) somewhere around 1% of the time post transition. It's almost always a misdiagnosis or stems from a combination of societal pressure and losing family/friend support groups by transitioning.

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                            [–]GadflyIII 47ポイント48ポイント  (39子コメント)

                            As a lay person on the subject, this does not really make sense....

                            So a person feels as though they are of a different gender than thier biological sex, then they have dysphoria, which is a mental illness, but if/when they change genders and then that person no longer has dysphoria?

                            Isn't the gender change just treating the symptoms of the mental illness? Surely the underlying cause is still present is it not?

                            Put another way... if a person has chronic depression, and is treated by an anti-depression medication, they the symptoms may be treated, but if the medication is stopped then the symptoms return as the underlying cause remains. Is that not the case here as well?

                            [–]meltypeeps 16ポイント17ポイント  (16子コメント)

                            To have a gender identity that does not match the one you were assigned at birth is to be transgender. Gender dysphoria is (to greatly oversimplify) being depressed because of that mismatch. Not all transgender people experience dysphoria. For those that do, the most effective treatment we can come up with is transitioning.

                            After a successful transition, your outward gender matches your inward gender and the mismatch is gone so you no longer experience the dysphoria.

                            What underlying cause do you think is still present in this situation exactly?

                            [–]DeliverStuff 4ポイント5ポイント  (1子コメント)

                            Gender dysphoria is (to greatly oversimplify) being depressed because of that mismatch.

                            You are generalizing it too much, and losing the nuance.

                            Gender dysphoria can be defined as:

                            the condition of feeling one's emotional and psychological identity as male or female to be opposite to one's biological sex.

                            Depression is a large part of it, but I feel like your simplification changes the meaning of the disorder slightly.

                            Transgender can be defined as:

                            denoting or relating to a person whose self-identity does not conform unambiguously to conventional notions of male or female gender.

                            So yes, if someone thinks they are neither female nor male, a small percentage of transgender people, then, by the technical definition of Gender Dysphoria, they would not have it, because no gender is not the opposite of their birth gender.

                            However, a majority of transgender people align with one or another gender, usually the one opposite of their birth sex.

                            Not all transgender people experience dysphoria.

                            So yes, not all do.

                            However, it is safe to say that a majority do. All those that do not align with a gender neutral state would, at the least, and these make up the majority of transgender people.

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                              [–]An_Lochlannach 6ポイント7ポイント  (1子コメント)

                              So a person feels as though they are of a different gender than thier biological sex, then they have dysphoria, which is a mental illness, but if/when they change genders and then that person no longer has dysphoria?

                              They may or may not have the dysphoria after. The point being made here is that the act of transformation is not an illness, and then the aftermath of "being transformed" is also not an illness. A person who has chosen to change their genitals or simply change how they dress is not mentally ill based on those things. They could be depressed and transgender, the depression would be the illness, not the transgender part.

                              Isn't the gender change just treating the symptoms of the mental illness? Surely the underlying cause is still present is it not?

                              The illness is not "I feel like a woman, I have a penis, therefore I am ill". The illness is the dysphoria that can be caused by various things, from societal pressure, to depression, etc. Having a penis isn't a symptom - so removing it isn't "treating the symptom". "I like these clothes/this hairstyle" is not a symptom, so changing your looks is not treating a symptom. And so on.

                              Put another way... if a person has chronic depression, and is treated by an anti-depression medication, they the symptoms may be treated, but if the medication is stopped then the symptoms return as the underlying cause remains. Is that not the case here as well?

                              In this case, "taking away the medication" would involve forcing a second sex change to put things back as they were, or forcing someone to dress/look a certain way. That, of course, would cause all sorts of problems, as there's so much more going on than merely not taking a pill any more.

                              In the event of someone undergoing the transformation and still not feeling better, then my interpretation of the situation would declare that the dysphoria was misdiagnosed in the first place, or further underlying issues were missed.

                              [–]GadflyIII 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

                              Thank you for the clarification.

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                                [–]JesusIsMyLord666 10ポイント11ポイント  (15子コメント)

                                It's not allways that simple. A sex change won't allways give desired results. Many will even feel worse after surgery.

                                [–]vilpachu 7ポイント8ポイント  (10子コメント)

                                People are more than ten times as likely to regret a heart transplant that saves their life. Just... Think about that.

                                You have a 25% chance to be still suffering rejection after a heart transplant. Survival rate after five years is just 60%.

                                The trans surgery regret rate is around 1%. Those are amazing odds.

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                                  [–]thedavidcarney 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                  Wow, thank you. I like to consider myself open-minded but the "whats the difference" that above stated was really hanging me up on trans issues. This makes perfect sense, thank you for the explanation.

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                                    [–]Abysinian 22ポイント23ポイント  (10子コメント)

                                    It's the other way around. A person can suffer from gender dysphoria as a result of being transgender, but a lot of transgender people don't suffer from it. To be diagnosed with gender dysphoria (the mental illness) there are specific criteria, and simply being transgender isn't enough.

                                    [–]sirjuicybooty 7ポイント8ポイント  (9子コメント)

                                    Could it be possible for the person suffering from dsyphoria could be gendering certain activities? So if I were a man who wanted to wear a dress and makeup, things that are generally associated with the female gender, could I simply think I should be a woman because I enjoy these things? Please excuse my limited knowledge on the subject.

                                    [–]strangepostinghabits 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

                                    That's up to you I guess? That's not trangenderism or gender dysphoria though really.

                                    Transgender people often know from a very early age, and are mostly very certain of what they are.

                                    Gendering activities like you mention doesn't need to be related to transgenderism at all. It's perfectly normal for people to experiment with identity, especially around sex. There's plenty of men and women dressing up as the opposite sex while being perfectly happy with their given gender.

                                    [–]Abysinian 1ポイント2ポイント  (4子コメント)

                                    In general, not particularly. Dysphoria can come from being forced to "present" in a certain way, such as a male to female transgender person who has to live day to day as male for whatever reason (e.g. not having come out yet), rather than being able to present as female (how they see themselves and want others to see them). A lot of it can also come from the feelings people get when it comes to having, using Male to Female as an example again, a male body (no breasts, masculine figure, male genitals, etc.) rather than the female body they want. It can also be triggered by all sorts of other similar things such as their voice (sounding like a man but being female) and a host of other things.

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                                        [–]ieatglue44 44ポイント45ポイント  (10子コメント)

                                        Gender dysphoria, as I understand it, is considered an illness, for which the most effective treatment is the transitioning process (which is very long and arduous).

                                        [–]white_n_mild 25ポイント26ポイント  (9子コメント)

                                        To me that just seems to allow these people to get help they might not get if we never categorized their condition as a disability.

                                        [–]phorgewerk 8ポイント9ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                        It also has the flipside of excluding some people who genuinely need to transition. It's a very common phenomenon in the trans community to be denied care because Joe Q Therapist in Hometown USA doesn't think they are trans enough and will set arbitrary and sometimes moving goals before formally diagnosing Gender Dysphoria. Luckily it's been getting much better in recent years, but I feel incredibly bad for anyone transitioning in rural areas

                                        [–]cfb362 23ポイント24ポイント  (3子コメント)

                                        that's right. we really just need it in the DSM so that we can prove that the treatment is part of necessary medical treatment. otherwise, the insurance companies might call sex reassignment surgery 'cosmetic' when it's often (but not always) necessary bc of dysphoria

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                                          [–]fsmpastafarianPhD | Clinical Psychology 70ポイント71ポイント  (48子コメント)

                                          Yes, gender dysphoria is a mental disorder (essentially, being transgender plus being significantly distressed by it). Many transgender people do not meet criteria for gender dysphoria though, which is why being transgender is not a mental illness.

                                          [–]bobsagetfullhouse 112ポイント113ポイント  (41子コメント)

                                          So in order for something to be a mental illness you have to be distressed by it? If I have schizophrenia but I enjoy my hallucinations am I still not mentally ill?

                                          [–]whoremongering 47ポイント48ポイント  (6子コメント)

                                          You have to exhibit some social or occupational dysfunction to get the diagnosis:

                                          "For a significant portion of the time since the onset of the disturbance, one or more major areas of functioning, such as work, interpersonal relations, or self-care, are markedly below the level achieved prior to the onset..." See Table 1 for current criteria

                                          This gets at the debate of what an 'illness' really is, which can be somewhat subjective.

                                          [–]DarkTussin 13ポイント14ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                          Dysphoria is literally defined as:

                                          a state of unease or generalized dissatisfaction with life.

                                          Gender dysphoria is, by definition, distressing.

                                          [–]Abedeus 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                          Huh. Makes sense. Euphoria = happiness, dysphoria = depression.

                                          [–]alexanderalright 12ポイント13ポイント  (3子コメント)

                                          Gender dysphoria

                                          I don't think it's too much of a debate. I like things to be extremely clean and orderly, much beyond what is 'normal'. However, I don't miss work, social activities, or harm myself because of this desire. I will take breaks between work tasks to make sure a pan is clean, but a pan not being perfectly clean doesn't prevent me from going to work. That's why I have Obsessive Compulsive Delight instead of Obsessive Compulsive Disorder. Distress isn't very subjective, however society has a way of telling people they need to unnecessarily deal with distress.

                                          [–]allysonwonderlandGrad Student|Experimental Psychology 7ポイント8ポイント  (2子コメント)

                                          There is also an aspect of impaired functioning that is part of a diagnosis (e.g., you may not seem to have a problem with your symptoms - like some psychopaths - but they interfere with your ability to function in daily life).

                                          [–]fsmpastafarianPhD | Clinical Psychology 22ポイント23ポイント  (20子コメント)

                                          Yes, for something to be a mental illness it has to either cause significant distress or impairment. This is the case for all mental disorders. If someone experiences hallucinations and does not find them distressing, and they do not impair their functioning in their life, and they don't have any other symptoms that cause distress/impairment, then no, they would not meet criteria for schizophrenia.

                                          [–]young_war 11ポイント12ポイント  (2子コメント)

                                          That's pretty fascinating, so if I have symptoms of multiple personality disorder, as long as it's not causing significant distress in my life, I would not be considered a person that has the said disorder? I would think that'd still fall under mental illness, just simply to a lesser degree.

                                          [–]centipededamascus 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                          MPD was renamed Dissociative Identity Disorder quite a while ago, and there is a lot of dispute over whether it's even a legitimate condition, but sure.

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                                                  [–]ImNotJesusGrad Student | Social Psychology 19ポイント20ポイント  (3子コメント)

                                                  But gender dysphoria is still considered one, right? It's as much a mental illness as depression. Or are we going to split hairs and say it is just something that is normal but causes depression?

                                                  Right. So being a transgender person makes you obviously more likely to suffer from gender dysphoria but that doesn't mean that they're the same thing. You're more likely to suffer from depression and anxiety if you're neurotic or introverted but that doesn't mean that neuroticism or introversion are, in and of themselves, mental illnesses.

                                                  [–]spazboy200 7ポイント8ポイント  (53子コメント)

                                                  So what is the difference between transgenderism and gender dysphoria?

                                                  [–]Abysinian 18ポイント19ポイント  (27子コメント)

                                                  Being transgender is identifying with a gender that doesn't match your biological sex/the one you were assigned at birth. Gender dysphoria occurs when a person experiences significant suffering in regards to their being transgender, such as profound unhappiness (to the point of depression and suicide at times) with their body and other aspects of themselves (as it doesn't match the gender they identify with). It's important to note that not all transgender people experience gender dysphoria.

                                                  [–]Penis-Butt 10ポイント11ポイント  (14子コメント)

                                                  Gender dysphoria or gender identity disorder (GID) is the formal diagnosis used by psychologists and physicians to describe people who experience significant dysphoria (distress) with the sex and gender they were assigned at birth.

                                                  edit: my emphasis on "distress." It's not an illness without the distress. This is common in psychology; people with OCD-like symptoms don't have the mental illness of OCD until a diagnosis determines that it distresses them or significantly harms their quality of life.

                                                  [–]spazboy200 4ポイント5ポイント  (11子コメント)

                                                  And transgenderism?

                                                  [–]Penis-Butt 2ポイント3ポイント  (10子コメント)

                                                  Transgender people are people who experience a mismatch between their gender identity, or gender expression, and their assigned sex.

                                                  Transgenderism is the accepted term for describing the condition (not meaning illness) of being transgender.

                                                  [–]sierraescape 2ポイント3ポイント  (3子コメント)

                                                  So if I'm reading this right all people with gender dysphoria are transgender, but not the other way around?

                                                  [–]Penis-Butt 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                                  The idea of that is basically correct, but I believe there may be some other gender-identity related issues that are not necessarily called transgenderism that could also cause gender dysphoria.

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                                                        [–]GLITCHGORE 7ポイント8ポイント  (9子コメント)

                                                        Gender dysphoria is often experienced by transgender individuals, although the feelings experienced as a result of gender dysphoria (and the intensity of those feelings) does vary from person to person. They are, of course, negative feelings.

                                                        I as a transgender man experience dysphoria in relation to my breasts - in my case, I want to be rid of them altogether. However, I do not really have any desire to augment my genitalia, and I don't experience much dysphoria in relation to them; my desire to leave them as they are is a result of scarce technology in the realm of female-to-male affirmation surgery for transgender men. There is a good possibility that I would feel differently about the issue if that type of surgery was more refined.

                                                        [–]spazboy200 5ポイント6ポイント  (7子コメント)

                                                        I don't know if you feel comfortable answering this question, it's merely me trying to understand you and others in similar situations.

                                                        If you dislike having breasts, but don't want to have genitalia surgery, how does this make yourself different than any other woman? Why/how does this make you male?

                                                        [–]crunkadocious 9ポイント10ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                                        If someone could snap their fingers and you would have perfectly beautiful and functional genitals, it might be an easier decision. As it is, its a big ordeal. And for many people, the external markers that everyone can see are more important.

                                                        Note: not op

                                                        [–]GLITCHGORE 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                        Thank you! You managed to say what I was trying to say in fewer words, and in a much less convoluted fashion.

                                                        [–]Fluffydianthus 5ポイント6ポイント  (2子コメント)

                                                        I'm not the person you asked, so I hope you don't mind my jumping in.

                                                        He said he experienced dysphoria - you can translate dysphoria as 'distress' - in relation to his breasts, but he didn't say that breasts were the only physical discrepancy in his gender indentity.

                                                        There are trans men who experience severe disphoria in relation to thier genitals, literal nausea and panic, like waking up in the wrong body after a lifetime as another gender. Some people can't even look at themselves naked without vomitting, or are unable to orgasm because the sensations being sent to thier brain are so wrong. People who experience this obviously opt for surgery, whatever its limitations.

                                                        For people who are not as disphoric, who maybe feel a milder sense of 'wrong', or maybe even feel male without the exact biology, the pain, expense, danger, and over-all underdeveloped results of the surgery arn't worth it.

                                                        The person you asked isn't describing what it means to be male, he's describing his personal experience with disphoria.

                                                        Edit: My answer wasn't very scientific, if you want links let me know. Your question essentially boils down to: what does it mean to be transgender?

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                                                          [–]junipermucius 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                          I'm a trans woman. I always felt like I didn't like my body, but I never understood why until I was around trans positive people. Then I began to put everything I've thought and felt into context.

                                                          I definitely don't like my penis and want to have it inverted and whatnot, but it's also not the biggest problem I have with my dysphoria. A bigger part of my dysphoria is my deep voice. I play a lot of online games and the internet is where I can be myself (I'm in a situation where I can't transition yet sadly), but then I have to talk on mic and I get scared or anxious.

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                                                            [–]FJSpoof 87ポイント88ポイント  (16子コメント)

                                                            Well, gender dysphoria IS a mental illness. You can concede the fact that its a mental illness without saying anything hateful.

                                                            [–]slutzombie 22ポイント23ポイント  (3子コメント)

                                                            My biggest problem with this is that almost every source listed ends with something along the lines of "more research needs to be done" "small sample size" "this is not conclusive", how is this evidence?

                                                            [–]drewiepoodle 323ポイント324ポイント x2 (99子コメント)

                                                            I've got a few studies and talks on the biological basis of gender dysphoria, if anyone is interested.

                                                            Study on gender: Who counts as a man and who counts as a woman

                                                            A sex difference in the human brain and its relation to transsexuality

                                                            Sex redefined - The idea of two sexes is simplistic. Biologists now think there is a wider spectrum than that.

                                                            Transgender: Evidence on the biological nature of gender identity

                                                            Anthropology, Sex, Gender, Sexuality: Gender is a Social Construction

                                                            Transsexual gene link identified

                                                            Challenging Gender Identity: Biologists Say Gender Expands Across A Spectrum, Rather Than Simply Boy And Girl

                                                            Sex Hormones Administered During Sex Reassignment Change Brain Chemistry, Physical Characteristics

                                                            Gender Differences in Neurodevelopment and Epigenetics

                                                            Sexual Differentiation of the Human Brain in Relation to Gender-Identity, Sexual Orientation, and Neuropsychiatric Disorders

                                                            Gender Orientation: IS Conditions Within The TS Brain

                                                            Androgen Receptor Repeat Length Polymorphism Associated with Male-to-Female Transsexualism

                                                            [–]KirkLucKhan 91ポイント92ポイント  (4子コメント)

                                                            These links are great, thank you. One note: I don't doubt the preponderance of evidence, but take a closer peek at that last article (about AR repeat length polymorphism). I'd bet my lunch that the P=0.04 association between longer repeat lengths and transsexuality is a classic case of P-hacking. Just glance at Figure 1. I studied trinucleotide repeat disorders (mostly Huntington's) in grad school, and I'd be laughed out of a committee meeting for claiming that result as significant.

                                                            [–]drewiepoodle 13ポイント14ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                            Additionally, a variant genotype for a gene called CYP17, which acts on the sex hormones pregnenolone and progesterone, has been found to be linked to female-to-male transsexualism but not MTF transsexualism. Most notably, the FTM subjects not only had the variant genotype more frequently, but had an allele distribution equivalent to male controls, unlike the female controls. One paper concluded that the loss of a female-specific CYP17 T -34C allele distribution pattern is associated with FtM transsexualism.

                                                            [–]_paramedic 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                            That is the conclusion we've reached in every class I've taken that has ever brought up that paper, across institutions.

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                                                              [–]DrKomeil 72ポイント73ポイント x2 (10子コメント)

                                                              Additionally:

                                                              http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7477289
                                                              http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10843193
                                                              http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11826131
                                                              http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15724806
                                                              http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16140461
                                                              http://www.eje-online.org/content/155/suppl_1/S107
                                                              http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16870186
                                                              http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17765230
                                                              http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18056697
                                                              http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18980961
                                                              http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18962445
                                                              http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19341803
                                                              http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20562024
                                                              http://press.endocrine.org/doi/full/10.1210/jcem.85.5.6564
                                                              http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2811245/

                                                              [–]indecencies 35ポイント36ポイント  (4子コメント)

                                                              And additionally:

                                                              http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27146028 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27142002 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27068099 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27054137 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27033288 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27000661 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26966853 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26928773 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19341803 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20562024 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16870186 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18962445 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17765230 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18980961 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18056697 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27033288

                                                              [–]Sunflier 6ポイント7ポイント  (2子コメント)

                                                              I really hate to be that one person but do these links have titles?

                                                              [–]DrKomeil 19ポイント20ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                                              They do, you need to click on them first.

                                                              (Which is a douchy way of saying I'm on mobile in bed, I would definitely reformat if I was still on my computer, sorry!)

                                                              [–]walldough 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                              That's okay! It's a lot of information.

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                                                                [–]LGBTLibrarian [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

                                                                Can you please submit these links to /r/LGBTlibrary ?

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                                                                  [–]huevosgrandote 51ポイント52ポイント  (32子コメント)

                                                                  Welp, hopefully I don't get banned. But I thought suicide was more or less the result of mental illness. Are there any other traits someone is born with that makes it way more likely to commit suicide that is not a mental illness? I understand certain life choices, like joining the military, drastically increase chances of suicide, but don't really understand why trans would have such an increased rate of suicide without it being mental illness.

                                                                  Usually when I ask questions like this I get treated like a bigot, but really I am just trying to gain a better understanding.

                                                                  [–]thethundering 18ポイント19ポイント  (15子コメント)

                                                                  Gender dysphoria, the distress and discomfort stemming from feeling like your brain's gender doesn't match your body's, is a mental illness. Being transgender is not the same as having gender dysphoria.

                                                                  They are still transgender after they transition so their body more or less matches their gender, but they no longer feel dysphoria.

                                                                  [–]huevosgrandote 16ポイント17ポイント  (14子コメント)

                                                                  But aren't suicide rates still sky high even after the transition?

                                                                  [–]thethundering 34ポイント35ポイント  (8子コメント)

                                                                  From what I've heard, that is very much because individuals and society at large treat trans people like shit, and transitioning is a long, stressful, imperfect process. People on reddit frequently reference a study demonstrating that post-op trans people are 3 times (or whatever the number is) more likely to commit suicide. What they leave out is that number is in comparison to non-trans people, and the post-op suicide rate is actually drastically lower than pre-op.

                                                                  [–]huevosgrandote 18ポイント19ポイント  (2子コメント)

                                                                  You're right. I have never heard of the rates going down after transition. I think I am like a lot of people, I see stuff like this in headlines, but really don't do any research on it.

                                                                  [–]BewilderedDash 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                  At least you can admit that.

                                                                  [–]agriff1 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                                                                  What!? Wow. A humble acknowledgement of one's ignorance, on Reddit?? I have never wanted to guild a comment so badly

                                                                  [–]ChairYeoman 6ポイント7ポイント  (2子コメント)

                                                                  Post-op trans people are 3 times more likely to commit suicide. Pre-op trans people are 10 times more likely to commit suicide.

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                                                                    [–]PrettyIceCubeBS|Computer Science 4ポイント5ポイント  (4子コメント)

                                                                    Nope, if we get access to treatment our suicide rates are the same as the general population. http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/early/2014/09/02/peds.2013-2958.abstract

                                                                    [–]strangepostinghabits 13ポイント14ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                                                    it's not trans -> suicide, it's unhappy -> suicide Now, sometimes trans people are unhappy with their lot in life, and sometimes severely distressed by their situation (gender dysphoria).

                                                                    Being trans is no more a mental illness than being dumped or having someone close pass away.

                                                                    Gender dysphoria is however classified as an illness, from what I understand, because it's a severe state of distress, and because it's a clear diagnosis to give, so that insurance companies won't start claiming gender reassignment surgery is cosmetic.

                                                                    [–]tripyra 11ポイント12ポイント  (2子コメント)

                                                                    Are there any other traits someone is born with that makes it way more likely to commit suicide that is not a mental illness?

                                                                    Being born biologically male, for one. That's a pretty big suicide risk.

                                                                    [–]JustHereForTheMemes 10ポイント11ポイント  (2子コメント)

                                                                    That's a great question. The difficulty with answering this is our inability to view trangender people in a vacuum. The current model hypothesises that trangenderism in itself has no effect on suicidality, rather society's reaction to trangenderism is much more likely to be the causitive factor.

                                                                    This is shown in cultures where transgenderism has historically been accepted. The problem though is that these cultures are few and far between and influence the data in other ways.

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                                                                      [–]Gordon_Goosegonorth 23ポイント24ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                                                      Scientists will never 'discover' or 'determine' whether being transgender is a mental illness because mental illness is a category that mental health professionals define as they see fit based on shifting social norms. Surely reddit is smart enough to understand this.

                                                                      [–]Jive_Bob 148ポイント149ポイント  (12子コメント)

                                                                      I understand hate comments but cutting off discussion and assuming what we know as of this moment is the end all isn't very science minded.

                                                                      [–]NotTenPlusPlease 23ポイント24ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                                                      I think they are trying to eliminate concern trolling from becoming an issue, as it very often does with transgender topics.

                                                                      Heck on the front page right now a person was concern trolling over trans-bathroom access and actually assaulted someone.

                                                                      [–]UncleMeatGrad Student|Security|Programming Languages 17ポイント18ポイント  (5子コメント)

                                                                      /r/science is a discussion board, not a place where actual science gets done. Its not like people are attaching experimental evidence to their posts about transgender people being crazy. The best way to proceed with controversial topics in this discussion board is to lean towards the best available science.

                                                                      [–]swallowedfilth 17ポイント18ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                                                      That isn't what is happening to /r/science, however. Peer reviewed articles will still be allowed, so in the case of new development in the field (and somebody posts it to the subreddit) then discussion will happen.

                                                                      Plus, I don't think they would be going through with the AMA tomorrow if the goal was to eliminate discussion.

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                                                                        [–]Antabaka 188ポイント189ポイント  (42子コメント)

                                                                        I strongly suggest the mods revise the post from:

                                                                        Our official stance is that transgender is not a mental illness

                                                                        To:

                                                                        There is a strong scientific consensus that transgender is not a mental illness

                                                                        Many, many people are freaking out at the idea that you have taken a stance on something they don't apparently realize is based on science.

                                                                        [–]jenbanim 28ポイント29ポイント  (2子コメント)

                                                                        I would take it even further to say:

                                                                        There is a strong scientific consensus that being transgender does not meet the criteria for a mental illness. This is because the term "mental illness" refers to conditions that cause significant distress or impairment. But people who are transgender are not necessarily distressed by their identity.

                                                                        I can definitely see why someone might be alarmed by this post if they didn't know the definition of mental illness, or the distinction between being transgender and experiencing gender dysphoria.

                                                                        I worry that this subreddit is going to alienate the broader reddit community by not carefully making the distinction between science and politics.

                                                                        [–]Lieutenant_Rans 19ポイント20ポイント  (11子コメント)

                                                                        In addition it should be changed to "being transgender" instead of "transgender"

                                                                        Imagine if the sentence was, "There is a strong scientific consensus that gay is not a mental illness." It's pretty clunky.

                                                                        [–]Antabaka 5ポイント6ポイント  (4子コメント)

                                                                        It's a rare sense of the word, but it is legitimate. See this, sense 1.

                                                                        [–]Lieutenant_Rans 9ポイント10ポイント  (3子コメント)

                                                                        I am transgender, and I can firmly say that practically nobody in the community uses the word this way, and that this particular usage is one I have never actually seen before (it's the trans equivalent of not including a close parenthesis

                                                                        Using "transgender" as something other than an adjective is pretty much exclusive to people who aren't all that familiar with the subject

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                                                                          [–]ani625 20ポイント21ポイント  (2子コメント)

                                                                          It is assumed that the stance taken is bases on scientific evidence. But doesn't hurt to clarify, yes.

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                                                                            [–]super_amazing 351ポイント352ポイント  (189子コメント)

                                                                            I don't understand how anything can be off-topic in science. The assumption must be that we are absolutely correct at the moment, and no evidence can exist to prove otherwise. People have made that claim regarding countless issues throughout history and have been proven wrong over and over again.

                                                                            Heliocentricity was an absolute no-no a few hundred years ago. It was considered outright blasphemy. Look what happened when we actually started talking about it.

                                                                            We are fallible. Science is about trying to fix that.

                                                                            [–]ab_lostboy 39ポイント40ポイント  (5子コメント)

                                                                            I had this discussion with a coworker less than a week ago regarding this exact topic.

                                                                            I even brought up that heliocentric point. Science CHANGES its ideas based on the evidence and research. Putting this off-topic was something I didn't hope the scientific community would do, but we've seen it before.

                                                                            Science has a history of bending to social stigmas of the day, and bending its views to seem more culturally appealing is something that the current scientific community is 100% guilty of. My fear is that studies claiming "condition x" is genetic or whathaveyou will cause larger issues down the line because they're labeled as "anti-trans" or "transphobic". Similar issues exist within race-based studies and statistics.

                                                                            [–]Homozygote 25ポイント26ポイント  (3子コメント)

                                                                            Look what happened when we actually started talking about it.

                                                                            You mean, look what happened when we started applying scientific thinking to it? Big difference between that and a bunch of anonymous people on the internet discussing something almost none of them are qualified to discuss.

                                                                            [–]Bick_Bickerson 146ポイント147ポイント  (90子コメント)

                                                                            The scientific / mental health establishment has pretty much agreed with what the OP/mod has said. Allowing this bullshit on the board is on par with allowing threads that are debating the merits of racial eugenics. It serves only to alienate the people reading. If there is some groundbreaking new shit that will come out about transgenderism, it won't come from concern trolls on reddit being dicks to people who they don't understand.

                                                                            [–]EndsInATangent 124ポイント125ポイント  (82子コメント)

                                                                            I thought it was generally agreed upon that being transgender isn't a mental illness but gender dysphoria is.

                                                                            Meaning an untransitioned transgender person experiencing dysphoria is mentally ill, but a transitioned person happy with themselves is no longer ill

                                                                            [–]Liberals_to_Gulag 56ポイント57ポイント  (49子コメント)

                                                                            Meaning an untransitioned transgender person experiencing dysphoria is mentally ill,

                                                                            I think while that's probably technically true, there's a certain stigma associated with the phrase that people are really trying to avoid here.

                                                                            You don't go around calling people with ADHD and such "mentally ill" even if it's in the DSM.

                                                                            All around, I think there are 2 guidelines. One is to be scientific and the other is to not be an ass.

                                                                            [–]SubtleMockery 25ポイント26ポイント  (3子コメント)

                                                                            Meaning an untransitioned transgender person experiencing dysphoria is mentally ill,

                                                                            I think while that's probably technically true, there's a certain stigma associated with the phrase that people are really trying to avoid here.

                                                                            You don't go around calling people with ADHD and such "mentally ill" even if it's in the DSM.

                                                                            We don't? Why not?

                                                                            [–]legayredditmodditors 25ポイント26ポイント  (6子コメント)

                                                                            there's a certain stigma associated with the phrase that people are really trying to avoid here.

                                                                            There was a stigma with saying god wasn't real, or the earth was flat, including many other things.

                                                                            Stigma shouldn't prevent discussion.

                                                                            Anywhere.

                                                                            [–]shit-throw 16ポイント17ポイント  (8子コメント)

                                                                            Thank you.

                                                                            While I recognize my mind isn't necessarily "right", it could easily be a hormone imbalance. Idk I don't pretend to be a scientist (I am a space enthusiast and a curious mind for sure), I'm just transgender.

                                                                            I don't give a fuck what anybody calls it. It sucks, and I wouldn't wish it on anybody. I do think calling it a mental illness gives it a bad stigma and your right in that we don't call everything in the DSM a "mental illness". Saying "metnally ill" is kind of, at least in my mind, just calling trans people lunatics who belong in an asylum rather than taking medication (hormones, etc) to alleviate their condition. That's just the picture it paints in my mind though.

                                                                            That's my perspective. I do welcome anyone to message me with questions on what it's like to be trans, or any questions they might have for a trans person in general. While I'm still very early in my transition and just coming to terms with the whole thing I'll do my best to describe my experiences and answer your questions in time.

                                                                            [–]crunkadocious 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                            Keep in mind the distinction made between gender dysphoria and transgender. Being transgender is not itself a mental illness or even a diagnosis any more than being homosexual is a diagnosis.

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                                                                              [–]Reddisaurusrekts 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                              You don't go around calling people with ADHD and such "mentally ill" even if it's in the DSM.

                                                                              But if you denied that ADHD was a mental illness, you'd be objectively wrong.

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                                                                                    [–]jealoussizzle 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                                    So present some modern scientific evidence that transgenderism, and not just gender dysphoria, is actually a mental illness. I have a feeling you'll have a hard time finding it.

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                                                                                      [–]GingerPonyPineapple 19ポイント20ポイント  (11子コメント)

                                                                                      I guess I have never understood how to classify being transgender, and for lack of a better way to look at it have thought of it as a mental illness/disorder. Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not here to flamebait, I'm not trying to push limits. I just want to know how to classify it, or if it even is classifiable, or if it's currently just its own thing. My reasoning for thinking of it as an illness or disorder is that it is a serious problem, not like people have described in this thread where a woman likes "man things" and a guy likes "women things" that can be aided or even freed from by use of medicine combined with surgical procedures. My understanding is because it is like other disorders or illnesses (like I said, between these two I have a tough time classifying it because both disorders and illnesses can be treated with medicine) I should classify it as such, though I am happy to know that unlike many disorders/illnesses, we have discovered a way to completely rid them of it(the internal struggles, at least. That's not to say that transgender people won't be viewed by bigots as freaks or subhumans or whatever, but I don't think that part of it has anything to do in this sub). I understand I have little to no knowledge in medical terminology, but I haven't really seen it explained while reading through here just what exactly it can be referred to as. As I said, I am looking for constructive feedback here, because I have always felt like calling it an illness or disorder immediately attaches a stigma to it while I have no such stigma for transgender people, but I have absolutely no idea how better to view it.

                                                                                      [–]phorgewerk 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                                      Being trans comes with some very real mental anguish, it's not just about liking certain things society tells you are supposed to be for one gender or another. Speaking personally, I experience severe anxiety and depression. I'm transitioning because making my body match what my mind expects it to feel like alleviates that, and with hormone therapy most days I can function enough to keep the house clean, etc without being a depressed blob. I also occasionally get what I would guess is similar to phantom limb, where I expect to be a certain shape but until I can afford surgery, it's just not.

                                                                                      Dysphoria is really vague and nebulous, and it's slightly different for everyone who experiences it, so I can see how easy it would be wonder what the heck it actually is. People who experience it are definitely negatively affected by it day to day, so I think calling it a mental illness even with all the stigma that can come with it isn't unfair.

                                                                                      To give yourself an idea of what it's like here is a thought experiment I see floated around trans groups from time to time. Imagine tomorrow you woke up as the opposite gender (I'm assuming you are male from here on out), so you woke up and had breasts, a uterus which cramped and bled every month, a higher voice, etc. Nothing about your mental state has changed, just physical appearance. You still prefer whatever gender you prefer for romance and have the same sexual roles you preferred before. Now however, because of your outward appearance people call you ma'am, miss etc all the time and make assumptions about what you enjoy and how you should behave. When you fail to conform to these, you are alienated or mocked for it. Now imagine doing that for multiple years, often in a world that fails to even supply the language for why you feel the way you do. Basically most cis people try to imagine transitioning to a gender they don't identify with instead of picturing it as transitioning to their current gender and understandably have difficulty with it

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                                                                                        [–]Emazinng 268ポイント269ポイント  (98子コメント)

                                                                                        There is no room in science for feelings. There's no "stance" to take.

                                                                                        [–]thunderdragon94 41ポイント42ポイント  (2子コメント)

                                                                                        If only it were that simple. Data interpretation depends on classification. We can pretend that we are objective and infallible all we want, but by and large we do not have access to why we do certain things.

                                                                                        [–]TakeFourSeconds 47ポイント48ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                                                                        Claiming pure, rational objectivity only serves to conceal bias

                                                                                        [–]DrKomeil 121ポイント122ポイント  (55子コメント)

                                                                                        You're right, and the fact of the matter is that there is growing scientific consensus that transgender people are not mentally ill, and that sex is a highly complex phenomenon that does not, under close scrutiny, work out to create two cleanly differentiated groups.

                                                                                        Posting the same few sources from notoriously biased and unscientific works is, however, unscientific in much the same way showing the same studies about vaccines causing autism is unscientific. The goal isn't to further knowledge but to justify a predetermined opinion. Not scientific at all.

                                                                                        [–]Eurynom0s 66ポイント67ポイント  (22子コメント)

                                                                                        I think part of the problem is that we still assume that any and all mental illness is all-caps BAD and only said in a way that's meant to tear people down—so it's really a reflection on how we deal with mental illness more than anything.

                                                                                        It seems like there has to be something mentally wrong to be convinced that you're in the wrong body. This isn't quite the same thing as when people thought homosexuality was a mental illness, since homosexuality doesn't mean your mind essentially rejecting your body. However, that doesn't mean that it can't be the case that as of right now the best way to deal with it is to provide sex reassignment surgery when it's desired, and to otherwise let them try to lead the life they want to (this entire bathroom controversy is just ridiculous, for starters).

                                                                                        It seems like a semantics game where it's easier to label something as not a mental illness than it is to get society to stop stigmatizing mental illness.

                                                                                        [–]gayd3n 19ポイント20ポイント  (2子コメント)

                                                                                        I think part of the problem is that we still assume that any and all mental illness is all-caps BAD and only said in a way that's meant to tear people down—so it's really a reflection on how we deal with mental illness more than anything.

                                                                                        Yeah, I've wanted to refer to it as an illness/disorder in certain discussions but I'm hesitant to do so because I know it sounds offensive/bad, but all I'm trying to say is that psychologically something is abnormal - but there's nothing negative about that.

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                                                                                          [–]Obi_Kwiet 27ポイント28ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                                                                          How is that a scientific consensus and not merely a semantic one? Are we really going to go through the whole nonsense of pretending non discrete group distinctions can't be made? Transsexuals would represent a combined type one and type two error of less than a percent. That's really very good.

                                                                                          [–]not---a---bot 8ポイント9ポイント  (2子コメント)

                                                                                          sex is a highly complex phenomenon that does not, under close scrutiny, work out to create two cleanly differentiated groups.

                                                                                          Couldn't you just have two groups of people where the first group has XX and the second group has XY? That's pretty cleanly differentiated on a genetic level. I was under the impression that the exceptions to the rule are in the vast minority and considered medical disorders.

                                                                                          [–]disbeezy 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                                          If you only use the sex chromosomes of the definition of sex, yes, but there are a lot of people born with both internal and external genitalia that have both male and female parts.

                                                                                          APA: Some experts estimate that as many as 1 in every 1,500 babies is born with genitals that cannot easily be classified as male or female

                                                                                          https://www.apa.org/topics/lgbt/intersex.pdf

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                                                                                            [–]Jawzper 11ポイント12ポイント  (3子コメント)

                                                                                            While I'm convinced that transgenderism is real and scientifically valid, I'm concerned that there are also people who really are just mentally unwell, or going through an emotional or confusing phase in their life, who are falling through the cracks when we try to protect trans folks from any kind of scrutiny.

                                                                                            This topic has been divided into black-and-white far too much, and I think it's important to acknowledge that there's likely to be a grey area in which youths especially might simply be curiously exploring possibilities, rather than looking at making life changing decisions about their gender identity. Treating a case of the former as if it were the latter can be just as harmful as the reverse.

                                                                                            For example, I've seen news articles about young kids not even into their teens yet being placed on hormone suppression therapy after exhibiting characteristics of the opposite sex. To me this is rash, hasty, and dangerous; at such a young age, it's likely that all the kid needed was some care and attention, but instead got medication that will irreversibly change the way their body develops forever. This sort of thing doesn't help anybody; if the child grows up and later realizes that they would have been happy in their naturally developing body, this could cause serious depression.

                                                                                            Due to its sensitive nature this is a difficult topic, but I think it's foolhardy for a subreddit for scientific discussion to take a hard stance on the matter when there's still important discussions to be had. Reframing such discussion as "hate speech" doesn't really help anybody, it just shuts down conversations that still need to be had. Yes, it's important to treat everyone respectfully and equally (and naturally I have no problems with derogatory comments being bannable), but I think it's also important to maintain some degree of protective scrutiny when somebody - and especially somebody you care about - is talking about life changing decisions of any kind.

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                                                                                              [–]ImNotJesusGrad Student | Social Psychology 47ポイント48ポイント  (17子コメント)

                                                                                              There is no room in science for feelings. There's no "stance" to take.

                                                                                              That's the irony here. Our stance is that irrespective of the personal feelings of bigoted users, we will not treat that anti-science positions that being trans is a mental illness or some how not "real" in the same way that we would opposition to vaccines or gravity. This is a science subreddit and the science is clear. Your personal feelings about whether or not it's "okay" or "real" doesn't actually make a difference.

                                                                                              [–]Royce- 30ポイント31ポイント  (7子コメント)

                                                                                              we will not treat that anti-science positions that being trans is a mental illness or some how not "real" in the same way that we would opposition to vaccines or gravity.

                                                                                              Did you mean that you will treat people calling it a mental illness in the same way you treat anti-vaccination and anti-gravity comments? I am confused.

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                                                                                                  [–]GavinDavids 165ポイント166ポイント  (130子コメント)

                                                                                                  If a study were to be published that "concludes" that transgenderism is a mental illness, will you be removing that study, regardless of its objective merit or peer-reviewed nature?

                                                                                                  [–]BigEd781 152ポイント153ポイント  (43子コメント)

                                                                                                  Our official stance is that transgender is not a mental illness

                                                                                                  So /r/science, is this stance based upon scientific evidence, or is it a reflection of the moderators feelings? Whether or not it is a mental illness is a scientific question, not a moral stance, and therefore up for debate.

                                                                                                  Hate speech is one thing, but I don't think this sub should be squashing genuine, fact based discussion of any kind.

                                                                                                  [–]exploderator 18ポイント19ポイント  (21子コメント)

                                                                                                  As reasonable sounding as your post is framed to be, I'm sure if there is actually any scientific evidence indicating that "transgender is mental illness", you're completely free to post it. The problem is there is already a wide consensus that it isn't, so merely shitposting the unfounded notion that it is, is not within the legitimate purview of this sub. If there is a mental illness problem here, then let people research and publish, and then link their reputable work here.

                                                                                                  [–]BigEd781 43ポイント44ポイント  (19子コメント)

                                                                                                  The problem is there is already a wide consensus that it isn't, so merely shitposting the unfounded notion that it is, is not within the legitimate purview of this sub

                                                                                                  Well I'm not talking about 'shitposting', I'm talking about reasoned debate. The OP is drawing a line, saying that the subject is not even up for discussion. That's not science; it's religion. No such rule should be in place for any topic.

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                                                                                                      [–]deaf_cheese 16ポイント17ポイント  (27子コメント)

                                                                                                      Could someone let me know why it is no longer considered a mental illness? I'm not saying it is a mental illness, just that I don't know the reasoning.

                                                                                                      [–]Ash-M 15ポイント16ポイント  (11子コメント)

                                                                                                      Here.

                                                                                                      A psychological state is considered a mental disorder only if it causes significant distress or disability. Many transgender people do not experience their gender as distressing or disabling, which implies that identifying as transgender does not constitute a mental disorder.

                                                                                                      [–]deaf_cheese 13ポイント14ポイント  (5子コメント)

                                                                                                      That sounds like a pretty sensible way of looking at it

                                                                                                      [–]fatal3rr0r84 17ポイント18ポイント  (3子コメント)

                                                                                                      Does that mean that a high functioning schizophrenic is not mentally ill despite having schizophrenia? You could at least say that they are mentally abnormal.

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                                                                                                          [–]ginandsoda 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                                                          Because transitioning is understood to be the cure for the issue, not the cause of the issue. The cause is a mismatch between your body (and society's expectations of your perceived gender) and the gender you feel in your mind.

                                                                                                          Transitioning usually resolves the stress (except for the bigotry you face for transitioning).

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                                                                                                            [–]qtmcgee 24ポイント25ポイント  (9子コメント)

                                                                                                            As someone who is trans (unfortunately) I can definitely attest to being broken. I constantly feel like half a person. Like I don't fit in with society. Dysphoria itself is the mental illness in my opinion. I definitely wouldn't wish it on anyone... Super interesting stuff nonetheless. I do appreciate the viewpoint I get from being trans, makes things pretty interesting. Still doesn't mean I hate being trans any less...

                                                                                                            [–]Randolpho 14ポイント15ポイント  (24子コメント)

                                                                                                            Since I've been curious about this topic, can anyone point me toward studies or theses that discuss gender as a sociological as compared to a biological concept?

                                                                                                            [–]Hydropos 110ポイント111ポイント  (62子コメント)

                                                                                                            Our official stance is that transgender is not a mental illness

                                                                                                            Just to play devil's advocate here, this may be at odds with the DSM definition of a mental disorder. Given that gender dysmorphia often requires medical procedures to alleviate the associated distress (a "sex change" for lack of a better term) the use of the word "disorder" seems reasonable here.

                                                                                                            There is some more interesting reading (though not really a scientific source) along this line of thought in this ELI5 thread from a year ago:

                                                                                                            https://www.reddit.com/r/explainlikeimfive/comments/31u95d/eli5why_is_a_transgender_person_not_considered_to/

                                                                                                            [–]NotTenPlusPlease 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                                                            dysmorphia and dysphoria are not the same thing.

                                                                                                            there is currently no such thing as Gender Dysmorphia, that I am aware of.

                                                                                                            [–]fourdots 60ポイント61ポイント  (8子コメント)

                                                                                                            Gender dysphoria is defined as a mental disorder by the DSM-V, as is body dysmorphic disorder. Gender dysmorphia is not a thing.

                                                                                                            Dysphoria is not the same thing as being transgender. Dysphoria is the distress caused by having the wrong body, and is generally corrected via medical intervention (HRT, GRS, etc.) in addition to any social aspects which individuals wish to pursue. Being transgender is not in and of itself a disorder (and does not meet the definition of a mental disorder), but it can cause disorders.

                                                                                                            [–]NotTenPlusPlease 9ポイント10ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                                                            Also be aware that dysmorphia and dysphoria are not the same thing.

                                                                                                            There is currently no such thing as Gender Dysmorphia, that I am aware of.

                                                                                                            [–]CupcakeTrap 44ポイント45ポイント  (6子コメント)

                                                                                                            Indeed. If you took a cisgender female, then used hormones/surgery to make them physically male, they would likely develop gender dysphoria, which is the condition of experiencing distress from being in "the wrong body", i.e., your body/gender appearance not matching your gender identity.

                                                                                                            [–]LadyCailin 12ポイント13ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                                                                                            See: the unfortunate and unethical case of David Reimer. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer

                                                                                                            [–]tadzioizdat 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                                                            Actually happens to people that have to take cross-sex hormones for other reasons. Which is why, for example, surgery for gynecomastia is included in most healthcare plans

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                                                                                                              [–]Rocketsprocket 21ポイント22ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                                                                                              Would it be correct to say that gender dysphoria is a disorder, while transitioning is the treatment? Hence being transgendered is not a disorder any more than being on a medication is a disorder.

                                                                                                              [–]Ash-M 85ポイント86ポイント  (28子コメント)

                                                                                                              Pretty interesting what the DSM says there. I wonder what else the DSM has to say!

                                                                                                              It is important to note that gender nonconformity is not in itself a mental disorder.

                                                                                                              o.

                                                                                                              [–]fsmpastafarianPhD | Clinical Psychology 21ポイント22ポイント  (11子コメント)

                                                                                                              The article you linked makes no mention of Gender Dysphoria.

                                                                                                              Gender dysphoria does not refer only to being transgender, it refers to experiencing significant distress due to being transgender. Many transgender people never meet criteria for Gender Dysphoria. The chapter in the DSM, which goes into significant detail about the issue, is quite unequivocal about the fact that being transgender alone is not a mental disorder.

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                                                                                                                [–]DoctorPooPoo [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                                                                                                                What an unscientific stance.

                                                                                                                [–]brak10 135ポイント136ポイント  (64子コメント)

                                                                                                                I think this is very irresponsible of the mods and also completely unscientific.

                                                                                                                While I am not against transgender people how can anyone seriously believe that an unsettled scientific concept is "settled" and "off limits"?

                                                                                                                This is as bad as the church saying "our official stance is that the sun revolves around the Earth and any theory that disagrees with this will be treated on par with heresy, typically resulting in jail time". It's the exact same concept- an authority has taken a political position despite a lack of scientific evidence supporting it.

                                                                                                                The fact is that scientists simply do not know if it's a mental illness or not. Were these born with a brain of the opposite sex? Are hormone levels responsible? Are they mentally ill?

                                                                                                                What would happen if Harvard released a study concluding that it is a disorder? Would linking to that study be off limits? How can you consider something to be a "fact" when you don't know yet?

                                                                                                                Nobody knows for sure yet, so please don't condemn people who take a different view of the topic. This isn't science, this is identity politics run amok.

                                                                                                                [–]JustHereForTheMemes 56ポイント57ポイント  (12子コメント)

                                                                                                                Out of curiosity, are you able to cite any of these sources of conflict? I'm a psychologist and am not aware of any significant professional groups against the current stance.

                                                                                                                [–]wickedmosaic 31ポイント32ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                                                                                                Judging from the original post and some of the comments made by the moderators and company it doesn't seem like they are banning anyone from posting studies in the future. This mainly seems to be a clarification on the moderation of comments.

                                                                                                                [–]nuclearseraph 48ポイント49ポイント  (25子コメント)

                                                                                                                The stance in the OP simply reflects the current medical consensus on trans people (that is, being transgender is not a mental illness), and states that bigotry will not be tolerated. You're reading far too much into this.

                                                                                                                Further, this is reddit. There are far too many people on this site who, when presented with lgbt issues (specifically trans issues), opt to make bad-faith and uninformed arguments, or to simply spout bigoted and demeaning speech. This is not "identity politics run amok", let go of your pearls for goodness sake.

                                                                                                                [–]SithLord13 8ポイント9ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                                                                There comes a point where you have to go with reasonability and consensus though. There are far more credible studies disputing anthropogenic global warming than there are disputing the fact that transgender individuals are due to mental illness. They've already said that a peer reviewed article would be acceptable no matter what its findings.

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                                                                                                                  [–]haplogreenleaf 4ポイント5ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                                                                                                  After reading a lot of these posts, it is evident that there is significant confusion on the correct terminology that is contributing to at least a part of this ruckus. For example, some users are identifying as transgender without transition but reporting dysphoria, which muddies the water, as this reads as transgender being some form of disorder. Suggest being quite particular on word choice.

                                                                                                                  [–]maszyna [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                                                                                                                  Our official stance is that transgender is not a mental illness,

                                                                                                                  Any scientific evidence for that?

                                                                                                                  [–]snobocracy 74ポイント75ポイント  (36子コメント)

                                                                                                                  Our official stance is that transgender is not a mental illness

                                                                                                                  I didn't realize science had an "official stance".

                                                                                                                  So now that people will be punished for saying "transgenderism is a mental disease", will there also be punishments for people who postulate "transgenders tend to have more mental diseases"?

                                                                                                                  Or, better yet, will there be a distinction between:
                                                                                                                  "Transgenders tend to have more mental diseases, and that's due to prejudicial society"; and
                                                                                                                  "Transgenders tend to have more mental diseases, and that seems to be naturally related to their transgenderism"

                                                                                                                  Also, will trans-ableism also be off-topic?
                                                                                                                  You know, people who think they are "a disabled person in an abled person's body"?
                                                                                                                  What about trans-racialism?

                                                                                                                  [–]baserace 44ポイント45ポイント  (13子コメント)

                                                                                                                  I didn't realize science had an "official stance".

                                                                                                                  Indeed. Really quite disturbing for a 'science' sub.

                                                                                                                  [–]feedmahfishGrad Student|Stream Biogeography|Macroecological Modeling 35ポイント36ポイント  (7子コメント)

                                                                                                                  There are official stances in all of science. Like Evolution, Round Earth, Continental Drift, and Global Warming.

                                                                                                                  Edit: A user deleted his comment so I will clarify even further.

                                                                                                                  The biomedical studies on folks who are transgender are all strongly falsifiable if you are referring to the requirement of Popperian Falsifiability, with conclusions following the guidelines of Plattian Inference, and it uses data that has strong Ayerian Verifiability with multiple replications and expansions on the topic; i.e., transgender is not some academic dart thrown at the wall to create a new buzzword for people who see themselves differently. That's what we are stating. The transgender condition that many people define themselves as has biological significance and no evidence supports it as some random mental illness/defect. That's the official stance of /r/science, which follows scientific consensus.

                                                                                                                  [–]regypt 13ポイント14ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                                                                  Exactly. It's more like, listen, evolution is a thing, ok? if you're going to say that it isn't, you're going to need to show something extraordinary and not just small-mindedness. For the sake of keeping discussion on topic, we're going to go ahead and remove dumb posts that try to argue that evolution isn't a thing.

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                                                                                                                      [–]fsmpastafarianPhD | Clinical Psychology 20ポイント21ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                                                                                                      I didn't realize science had an "official stance".

                                                                                                                      Being transgender is quite literally not a mental disorder someone can be diagnosed with. The current, most related diagnosis is Gender Dysphoria, which refers to someone who is transgender and also experiences significant distress about their being transgender. You'll note from this diagnosis, that being transgender alone is not enough to be considered meeting criteria for the diagnosis, and in fact many transgender individuals never do. Others who meet the diagnosis at one point, may no longer meet criteria once they transition.

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                                                                                                                        [–]The_Great_Steamsson [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                                                                                                                        You can either have this policy, or a sub dedicated to science. The two are at irreconcilable odds. Choose.

                                                                                                                        [–]candytripn [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                                                                                                                        I think this is pretty terrible and quite a dangerous approach. Hate-speech should be banned, and trolls/shills/bigots/(whatever reddit term I'm missing) should be removed/banned.

                                                                                                                        Discussion, however, should not. Taking an "official stance" on something that is no where close to being settled reeks of "politics" (for lack of a word that might get me banned because "hate").

                                                                                                                        I'm sure this will get censored (Uneddit shows quite a large number of non-hate, on topic comments being removed.. which is sad) but I feel it needs to be said. Out of all the subs I follow, /r/science was thee one place where "social politics" didn't seem to have a foothold... I'm genuinely worried now.

                                                                                                                        I understand the concept of not wanting to be labeled as something that seems slightly derogatory, but outright censoring discussion on a forum makes for a very bad image. The "this is our view.. if you don't share it be silent" has no place in a sub dedicated to fact. The jury isn't out, and while it can be said that a majority feels one way, the fact that others (John Hopkins for one) disagree, shows that it isn't settled.

                                                                                                                        [–]bumblehog 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                                                                        Either ban the topic outright or have the scientific wherewithal to approach uncomfortable questions. It'd be like never discussing nuclear fission for fear of upsetting those who've suffered radiation poisoning.

                                                                                                                        No one I would hope is arguing that hate speech should be tolerated, but we need to be clear what hate speech is. Questioning the medical benefits of transitioning, is not hate speech. To avoid agendas and bad faith it should of course be backed up with actual citations and expertise on the matter, but otherwise I don't see why we should lower the bar to the most sensitive amongst us otherwise you end up with a mess like what happened with that clinic in Canada.

                                                                                                                        Personally, at this point i'd settle for a way to filter out the whole lot if people are going to be prickly about it.

                                                                                                                        [–]Stardustchaser 9ポイント10ポイント  (8子コメント)

                                                                                                                        A serious question- if one has anorexia nervosa and therefore is physically and emotionally stressed because they are not "thin enough", what would you suggest as a remedy? Is allowing that individual to be emaciated, and perhaps damaging their internal organs if not cause death to satisfy what is "normal" for that individual perspective ultimately the correct way to go?

                                                                                                                        I know it is not the same, and yet to some with only a small amount of knowledge on the subject such as myself, there are noticeable parallels.

                                                                                                                        [–]thethundering 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                                                                        The key difference is that transitioning generally makes people healthier, not imminently near death like letting them starve themselves.

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                                                                                                                          [–]sporite [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                                                                                                                          I apologise if this question is offensive or breaking this new rule. But isn't Transgender is one gender's mind in the incorrect body?

                                                                                                                          [–]Loyheta [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                                                                                                                          I had someone very close to me that was Trans and suffered from gender dysphoria. I have another friend that is Trans but it's not dysphoric. I haven't read through this thread but I want to say they are two different things. My close friend would be alright until she showered. Then she would break down crying. It's not something to make fun of or take lightly.

                                                                                                                          That aside she was a horrible person but that had nothing to do with what she was, only who she was.

                                                                                                                          [–]theboiledpeanuts 13ポイント14ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                                                                                                          guys, chill. their official stance is that transgender is not a mental illness. their official stance is also that evolution is real. yes, both can be debated. there should still be ways of talking about transgender issues without it devolving into hate speech. the question "could transgenderism be a mental illness, similar to anorexia nervosa or body dysmorphia?" is still valid, and not hate speech. the mods are just trying to prevent that question from eclipsing the AMA tomorrow and preventing any newer, more relevant questions from being seen. I am a transgender person, I appreciate the scientific minds who are trying to be open and understand this issue. and to be perfectly honest, what is and isn't a mental illness is all up for debate. it's my personal opinion that sentience is a mental illness, but hey, what are you gonna do

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