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[–]SLUzer07 69ポイント70ポイント  (16子コメント)

Maybe this is for /r/askscience but is the consensus if we met a Neanderthal baby and raised it in the modern world, would it wind up pretty much like a normal modern human from an intellectual standpoint?

[–]GoodBurgher [スコア非表示]  (4子コメント)

Anthropologists aren't really sure, but they have a larger cranial volume than modern humans (1300cc's for us vs 1450 cc's for them) so while their capacity for intelligence might have been a little less as they've had less time to develop/evolve socially, they could probably exist and understand things.

[–]Tokinandjokin [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

All the answers are removed, but im really curious about this question? I think I remember reading somewhere that we dont think they were as intelligent as homo sapiens.

[–]ReginaldLADOO 1416ポイント1417ポイント  (523子コメント)

I think it's so cool to imagine what the world would be like today if multiple homo species still existed. Imagine a world where it was the neanderthal's, and only the neanderthal's, who crossed the Bering Strait land bridge into North America (or by canoe, however they got there).

Imagine Columbus and the early European explorers setting foot in the Americas to find an entirely different group of beings existed. It's probably safe to say they would have had the same fate as the Native people. Disease and devastation, but some would still exist in the world today.

Imagine the Denisovans made it into the modern era. If we homo sapiens sapiens can be so divided with our cultures, religions, countries, just imagine what it would be like with all these different intelligent species trying to coexist.

(I apologize in advance if I confused the terms "species", "Homo sapiens", etc. Wasn't sure what they're all classified as)

Edit: While we're here... It's also interesting to imagine scenarios where life may have arisen on two different planets in a solar system somewhere out there in the universe. Or even life on a planet and life on that planets moon. Picture someone like Galileo pointing his telescope at that nearby moon. What are they? Are they intelligent? Will they come to your planet? In peace? For war? Just the endless possibilities of the differences in their levels of advancement is amazing to think about. What if one planet is like 21st century earth while the other is still in the dinosaur age. What if one is at the intelligence equivalent of the year 3547 (assuming we're still around then and are drastically more intelligent) while the other is in 500BC. It's perfectly possible that such scenarios are playing out at this very moment somewhere in the universe.

[–]Jynx3 1204ポイント1205ポイント  (253子コメント)

We hate people for having different skin colors. A competing race?

[–]Veskit 597ポイント598ポイント  (108子コメント)

A competing race?

Yeah we extinguished them long ago.

[–]jalif 284ポイント285ポイント  (100子コメント)

I'm pretty sure we just rooted them into submission.

The average human has 2% Neanderthal DNA.

[–]TheLoudThoughts 371ポイント372ポイント  (80子コメント)

*average non-African human. Africans are OG Homo sapiens. Though, I'm quite found of my silly, jutting nose and ability to digest lactose.

[–]helmMS | Physics | Quantum Optics 272ポイント273ポイント  (36子コメント)

Gene studies indicate that adult lactose tolerance is a less than ten thousand years old mutation, and so probably independent of the Neanderthals.

[–]firedropsGrad Student|Cultural Anthropology 152ポイント153ポイント  (18子コメント)

It also developed independently in Tibet and Ethiopia. So there actually are people in Africa with lactase persistence.

Edit to add the Middle East and other regions of Africa as well. The Masaai are a classic example who probably adapted to lactose consumption in adulthood significantly later than European populations. But considering fresh milk mixed with blood is a very traditional drink/food for them it isn't surprising they have lactase persistence! Pastoralist societies in Africa in general have lactase persistence and it actually allows us the ability to trace population movements and subsistence patterns.

Here are some references since so many people are interested:

  • Tishkoff, Sarah A., et al. "Convergent adaptation of human lactase persistence in Africa and Europe." Nature genetics 39.1 (2007): 31-40.

  • Heyer, Evelyne, et al. "Lactase persistence in Central Asia: phenotype, genotype, and evolution." Human biology 83.3 (2011): 379-392.

  • Peng, Min-Sheng, et al. "Lactase persistence may have an independent origin in Tibetan populations from Tibet, China." Journal of human genetics 57.6 (2012): 394-397.

  • Ingram, Catherine JE, et al. "A novel polymorphism associated with lactose tolerance in Africa: multiple causes for lactase persistence?." Human genetics 120.6 (2007): 779-788.

  • Enattah, Nabil Sabri, et al. "Independent introduction of two lactase-persistence alleles into human populations reflects different history of adaptation to milk culture." The American Journal of Human Genetics 82.1 (2008): 57-72.

  • Schlebusch, Carina M., et al. "Stronger signal of recent selection for lactase persistence in Maasai than in Europeans." European Journal of Human Genetics 21.5 (2013): 550-553.

  • Ranciaro, Alessia, et al. "Genetic origins of lactase persistence and the spread of pastoralism in Africa." The American Journal of Human Genetics 94.4 (2014): 496-510.

[–]beebeedoom 29ポイント30ポイント  (6子コメント)

Yup, just did an assignment on this for evo. North Africans and middle eastern populations also carry the gene.

[–]Buddhamama42 7ポイント8ポイント  (3子コメント)

Anyone out there still able to make Vitamin C ? I heard we lost that one quite recently as well. Now that would be useful.....

[–]Smauler 24ポイント25ポイント  (2子コメント)

There's no evidence of Neanderthals keeping livestock anyway, is there? Why would we think our lactose tolerance came from them?

[–]helmMS | Physics | Quantum Optics 11ポイント12ポイント  (0子コメント)

No reason!

[–]EvilREuropeanRefugee [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Because the further North into Europe you go the lower % of lactose intolerance, and higher % of Neanderthal DNA. Probably a coincidence though.

[–]FreudJesusGod 17ポイント18ポイント  (9子コメント)

And are correlated with farming regions, mostly (although I wonder if the Sami and Steppe people's have the genes, too, given their reliance on caribou and horse milk)?

We don't have any data Neanderthals practiced animal husbandry, do we?

[–]Hattrick_Hero 9ポイント10ポイント  (4子コメント)

If you want to hang out with Sami, better not give them milk. Source: Knows many Sami, they get gassy.

[–]KJ6BWB 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

It's only about 3k years ago in Europe.

[–]StrangeArrangement 41ポイント42ポイント  (19子コメント)

Africans can definitely drink milk too. There's a loy of pastoralism in subsaharan Africa where that's the majority of what they consume.

[–]TheLoudThoughts 18ポイント19ポイント  (17子コメント)

I was under the impression that while present once outside of Northern European heritage the number of lactose tolerant adults was severely limited. I know that, for example, the Maasai developed the ability independently because they rely on cattle for so much of their diet.

On a side note, do you know why goat and sheep's milk is easier to digest? It seems folks all over the world consume some sort of dairy, but those two animals seem to be much more prevalent.

[–]tejon 14ポイント15ポイント  (7子コメント)

My lay understanding is that in a lot of places, milk is always cultured before it's consumed, because as you approach the equator this takes negligible effort; milk your animals in the morning, leave the pail out in the sun, and you've got keifur or yogurt in time for lunch, with negligible lactose remaining.

In the U.S., I see plenty of cultured goat and sheep dairy products, but almost no raw milk at all, which may account for it "being easier." And if this proplerly represents the cultural origins of those products, could be that by coincidence of climate there just aren't many goat/sheep cultures who have needed lactose tolerance.

Curious about Peruvians now, tho.

[–]DrQuaid 10ポイント11ポイント  (5子コメント)

its illegal for stores to sell raw milk I believe.

[–]tejon 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

Sorry, "raw" was too extreme an adjective. I don't see uncultured goat or sheep milk.

[–]Geawiel 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

illegal for stores to sell raw milk

It depends on the state. In Wa state and 12 others it is legal to sell raw milk. There are a couple local stores to me that sell, and 2 farms advertise as well. One of the farms even offers cheese making courses with it.

[–]therealcarltonb 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Peruvians aren't big on dairy products. They have some cheeses but no real dairy culture. They have thousands of variaties of potatoes, fruits and corn though.

[–]ethaddict 5ポイント6ポイント  (2子コメント)

It totally depends on how much you drink as well. Not many people lose all lactase. I imagine places that use goat milk aren't drinking as much as we drink of cow milk.

[–]diagonali 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

Fat molecule size of goats milk is smaller. Generally more similar to human milk.

[–]servohahn 15ポイント16ポイント  (3子コメント)

They might've interbred. I mean, Neanderthal and Homo Sapiens were supposed to have done it in the past. I think the present might have a more or less convergent species that are a hybrid of the two.

[–]ThrowawayGooseberry 25ポイント26ポイント  (14子コメント)

They are quite a lot stronger, and according to some studies, smarter than us. So we probably did outnumber them by a large margin, or they are just shyer or less violent towards us.

Then again, the current accepted facts about them might indicate something different. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neanderthal_behavior

Didn't some Scandinavian have tiny traces of them in their DNA?

Have a different unpopular crazy theory about who neanderthals are.

[–]skurttengil 24ポイント25ポイント  (5子コメント)

One hypothesis as to why we outcompeted neanderthals was our gender divided labour. Sapiens women and children doesnt seem to have partaken in big game hunting as often as neanderthal women and children did. It was quite dangerous to hunt big game so this might have reduced the number of neanderthals. This is most likely not the only cause but it might have alteast been one factor to their extinction.

[–]subtle_nirvana92 21ポイント22ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yeah wasting women during times of struggle is a very punishable strategy for population numbers. There's a limit to how many children women can have, but there's no limit for men. So the number of women limits how large the next generation can get.

[–]Alfalfa_as_FUCK 6ポイント7ポイント  (2子コメント)

ccording to some studies, smarter than us.

Can you link to any studies that suggest or conclude that Neandethals were smarter than homo sapiens?

[–]TryAnotherUsername13 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

They are quite a lot stronger, and according to some studies, smarter than us. So we probably did outnumber them by a large margin, or they are just shyer or less violent towards us.

Producing more offspring is also an evolutionary advantageous trait. You don’t necessarily have to be stronger, better, harder, faster …

[–]quraid 149ポイント150ポイント  (40子コメント)

I am pretty sure that considering that we could interbreed with them, they would be just another ethnicity in today's world.

Another food for thought. What if our near ancestors from Africa died out right after some of them left the continent. maybe we would be looking at their artefacts in museums and calling them Homo Africus. A completely different species!

[–]atomfullerene 20ポイント21ポイント  (2子コメント)

I am pretty sure that considering that we could interbreed with them, they would be just another ethnicity in today's world.

There's substantial evidence that there was difficulty interbreeding with them, though. Total number of crossings appear to have been relatively small, and there's evidence of selective sweeps against neanderthal DNA related to sperm production, which is probably indicative of cross-fertility problems. And we don't know of any neanderthal mitochondrial DNA in modern humans, which could just be due to chance or could be due to infertility of female neanderthal-male human crosses.

[–]Bennyboy1337 20ポイント21ポイント  (4子コメント)

I am pretty sure that considering that we could interbreed with them

Depends how diverse the species are. Neanderthals evolved in fairly close proximity to Cromagnom, so there was never a great opportunity for the species to diverge too far. If a species evolved on the American continent before the recent ice ages, then they would have been separated for millions of years, allowing ample time to evolve differently enough, that we most likely would not be able to breed with them. Another interesting side effect of this would be, that the diseases that wiped out natives would probably have no effect on this different species, since the genetic code is so different.

If this other species discovered agriculture, and livestock use on a similar timeline as mainland humans, we could have theoretically had an arms race and clash of two species, much like Elf vs Man war in fantasy novels.

[–]SubspaceBiographies 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

Hmmm wonder if the original ideas of "elves" and "dwarves", etc descended from some ancient way of explaining Neanderthals.

[–]scsuhockey 34ポイント35ポイント  (2子コメント)

Imagine Columbus and the early European explorers setting foot in the Americas to find an entirely different group of beings existed. It's probably safe to say they would have had the same fate as the Native people. Disease and devastation, but some would still exist in the world today.

I'm sure the natives did look like a different species to Columbus. Though he'd certainly have met a few random foreigners in his day, Europe as a whole was a lot less diverse. The Arawak that he first encountered would barely have resembled any African, Chinese, Japanese, Arabic, Desi (etc.) people he'd ever met or seen depicted in any artwork. Neanderthals would probably have been similarly foreign to him. And just like today, there would have been genetic intermingling, though probably not in a very loving manner.

[–]mcalesy 18ポイント19ポイント  (0子コメント)

Indeed, many early naturalists did divide humans into multiple species. Native Americans were Homo americanus under one such scheme.

[–]Slapbox 62ポイント63ポイント  (20子コメント)

The most remarkable thing to me is that we have all this hate with only one species AND as a species we have less intraspecies differences than most any other species.

Here's a comparison of differences within subsets of humans and chimpanzees. More substitutions means greater variation

[–]RumpleDumple 15ポイント16ポイント  (4子コメント)

I remember reading about lizard races (same species) separated by only a 100 miles or so with like 300x the genetic variation that humans do.

The more we know the more the "racial realists" have to stretch for their arguments.

[–]Cheeseand0nions 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

This is the premise of the classic science fiction novel "A different flesh" except in N. America they found Homo Erectus. Neanderthals were actually a "sub species" of Homo Sapiens. They (along with Devonians and a few others) were really just earlier races of our species.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Different_Flesh

[–]istillfeelyou 8ポイント9ポイント  (8子コメント)

My prediction is we'd probably have gone to war at some point and killed one another until there was one species.

We don't have a great track record with animals that aren't even a threat never mind ones that would be and would also want to make their species reign supreme as we would.

That's very cynical I'll admit and the idea you've brought up is actually really cool. Always kinda wondered it myself but then the cynicism comes a-rainin' down.

[–]TopographicOceans 14ポイント15ポイント  (4子コメント)

Who's to say we didn't around 50,000 years ago?

[–]Roboculon 12ポイント13ポイント  (2子コメント)

Exactly. This Chris Columbus scenario isn't so far fetched, groups of humans absolutely did come into co tact with groups of Neanderthals, it just happened well before Columbus' time.

Over time, humans colonized all Neanderthal territories until there was nothing left of them, except the ~2% of their DNA they left with us through interbreeding.

[–]subtle_nirvana92 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

Just wish it would have happened during a time that we had the written word.

[–]DoctorThackery 13ポイント14ポイント  (14子コメント)

Well, disease would have spread harder, them being a different species.

[–]superatheist95 22ポイント23ポイント  (13子コメント)

That doesnt necessarily mean it will cause more deaths any quicker.

Europeans were disease resistent because of living in close proximity to other species.

Disease caused many deaths in the americas. There were an estimated 15-90million people native to the americas living before european contact. 90% of those people most likely died of disease despite never even being within 1000miles of a european.

[–]JangoMV 21ポイント22ポイント  (0子コメント)

I think he meant the spread of disease could possibly be limited due to the difference in species. Diseases evolved to spread through sapiens might not find the same avenues available in neanderthal.

[–]Vio_ 17ポイント18ポイント  (11子コメント)

No, they were more resistant to European diseases due to millennia of exposure and even then millions died from them. Once new diseases were introduced, their mortality rates exploded. The Americas was such a disease holocaust, because they got exposed to pretty much all of the European diseases one right after another.

[–]guspasho 6ポイント7ポイント  (10子コメント)

Something I've often wondered - why didn't the same disease holocaust occur in the Old World? Surely they would have been just as vulnerable to the New World diseases they had never been exposed to before.

[–]Unmormon2 12ポイント13ポイント  (1子コメント)

There's syphilis, but most of the really bad stuff went one way because Europeans had been living around livestock while that wasn't really a thing in pre-Columbian America.

[–]Vio_ 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

Several diseases spread, most notably syphilis, but we're talking about a population that had been isolated from the old world by about 40-60kya (which meant less time and population for diseases to process through), and also that Native Americans didn't really have a way to go back into Europe beyond a few taken back by European ships with large time requirements

[–]Try_to 238ポイント239ポイント  (32子コメント)

So they were literally cave men.

[–]danielravennest 374ポイント375ポイント  (29子コメント)

What's going on is "selection bias". Neanderthals had to spend most of their time outdoors, because that's where the food was. But shelters made of branches would have long since rotted away, and ones made of piled stones would have been scraped away when an ice sheet advanced. Only a deep cave could have preserved things this well.

They might have wintered in such caves, then came out in spring and spent 9 months outdoors, we just don't know for sure.

[–]ChuckTestarossa 101ポイント102ポイント  (16子コメント)

I sometimes wonder if our knowledge of prehistoric man isn't completely distorted by this fact. What if cave-dwellers were a completely separate caste of humans, and the mainstream of humanity in those times lived in wood, thatch, stone or mud structures, perhaps even in villages or farms with complex social structures? What if the "cave dwellers" were the outcasts, the poor and/or unintelligent, unwilling or unable to live alongside their more advanced kin? Even stone buildings built after the last ice age would have eventually been disturbed, probably dismantled and repurposed for something else, countless generations ago.

[–]Luai_lashire 98ポイント99ポイント  (12子コメント)

Although it's possible, the comment you're replying to is overstating its case somewhat. You might be surprised how many wood, stone, and clay structures from ancient history DO survive. We've even found dinosaur footprints in clay that were still soft and malleable to the touch, and quickly wore away once exposed to open air and water. It's all really a matter of luck wether or not something gets trapped in the right kind of sediment to be preserved, and then whether or not we find it.

There's a lot of fancy statistics I don't really understand myself that can be used to make pretty good estimates of how likely it is that we're "missing data" of certain kinds. That's how we derive stats about how many crimes go unreported and things of that sort. We can apply the same things to our archeological and paleontological finds and make estimates about how much of the record we're missing. So we know more or less how likely it is that we've completely misrepresented ancient peoples.

[–]deadlast 9ポイント10ポイント  (1子コメント)

Hell, think of how skewed our understanding of dinosaurs is. Because of the conditions required for fossilization, our lens is the equivalent of analyzing contemporary species by looking at the Mississippi delta.

[–]FreudJesusGod 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

We have evidence of mammoth bones being used for shelters by early homo sapiens, don't we (I seem to recall a recent paper detailing that)?

And then there's all those slate and rock semi-submerged buildings in the Scot islands, no?

It seems a bit odd we can find early homo sapien build sites, but not neanderthals. I'm not sure it's just selection bias.

[–]-____--____- 40ポイント41ポイント  (5子コメント)

If you haven't seen it, the documentary called The Cave of Forgotten Dreams is one of the most profound documentaries I've ever watched on this subject. To imagine humans going deep into caves during the last ice age with torches is amazing. The cave was discovered exactly as it was thousands of years ago, the entrance being cut off from fallen rock during an earthquake.

[–]studebaker103 10ポイント11ポイント  (0子コメント)

I watched this film in 3D in the theatres when it came out. Amazing to see the depth of it. First film I saw that used 3D for a real purpose other than to entertain.

[–]Jase82 248ポイント249ポイント  (47子コメント)

Origin of Dwarf myths I'm calling it. As Neanderthals became more and more rare, they would hide from humans or be killed. They were pushed out of prime habitat and were forced to live on the mountains and in caves. Stories of them would spread and eventually evolve into myths.

[–]joshnihilist 63ポイント64ポイント  (4子コメント)

There are some anthropologists who would agree with you. For example, Homo floresiensis and Ebu Gogo.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ebu_gogo

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homo_floresiensis

The people of Flores have legends of small, human like creatures that lived on the island with them long ago. They eventually killed them all off. Now we have evidence of a small, human like creature that may have lived near humans 13,000 to 50,000 years ago.

[–]dkysh 45ポイント46ポイント  (6子コメント)

Forget about hiding in caves. Modern humans knew clearly of the existence of neanderthals. They even mated regularly.

I wonder if they did even realize they were different species and not simply thought they were different tribes.

[–]newshoebluedoos 19ポイント20ポイント  (0子コメント)

They were relatively well related to us. But no I doubt they were drawing phylogenetic trees.

[–]caveo_rattus 55ポイント56ポイント  (12子コメント)

You could also argue some form of genetic memory. For most of our evolutionary history, there were other humanoids around. Just like we are still scared of the dark and scared of monsters even though it doesn't have much bearing in the modern world, it makes sense we would have some inborn curiousity and fear about "others" who are very similar to us, but not quite the same.

[–]superatheist95 50ポイント51ポイント  (7子コメント)

Human like beings would be terrifying to come across in the wild. Confined, dark areas.

[–]Misspells_Stuff 14ポイント15ポイント  (0子コメント)

I used to be scared of evolution of human documentaries as a kid for this reason.

When they start to get the whites in the eyes I can't handle it.

[–]redmercurysalesman 14ポイント15ポイント  (4子コメント)

My favorite theory for the origin of the dwarf myth is that bronze age mediterranean peoples ventured north into germanic regions to mine tin. Compared to people of germanic ancestry, mediterraneans tend to be shorter and stockier. Then they spent a few centuries telling stories about the short miners with advanced metallurgy in oral tradition.

[–]Spacetrooper 19ポイント20ポイント  (0子コメント)

Except modern humans didn't leave Africa until about 100,000 years ago. These rock arrangements date back approximately 175,000 years.

[–]mistabruker 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

To this day, stories of "the little people" and "the elves" are told in northern Norway. They are occasionally seen in modern times, supposedly..

[–]Archimid 388ポイント389ポイント  (162子コメント)

I think Neanderthals were as intelligent as Homo sapiens. My speculation is that they never got 10000 years of climate stability like humans enjoyed during the Holocene. Neanderthals, like humans before the Holocene, couldn't stay in one place enough generations to develop technology. Climate change forced to migrate and adopt nomadic lifestyles. They never had the time to develop technologies that could be passed on and build upon by their offspring.

OTOH, humans were lucky enough to live during a time were the global temperature remained +- 1 C for ten thousands years. Technologies like agriculture and writing had time to grow and develop in a relatively stable climate. Climate change still happened but it was slow enough were civilizations could easily adapt and actually grow. After 9,500 years of a stable climate and accumulation of information, the renaissance happened, from there industrialization and the Information Age happened.

[–]Clovis74Grad Student | Archaeology | Lithic Technology 74ポイント75ポイント  (7子コメント)

Your intuition is probably correct in one sense-- Holocene climatic stability was a necessary condition for the adoption of agriculture and all the other fancy cultural innovations that came along with it (big cities, complex government, craft specialization, science, etc.). Hunter-gatherers definitely understand how plants work and sometimes actively manage important plant species (e.g., sowing seeds or pruning trees), but it takes a long time for all of the technology, cultural innovations, and genetic changes in domesticates associated with full-fledged agriculture to develop. So even if there were time periods during the Pleistocene that were favorable for agriculture, they were likely too short for full-fledged ag to get off the ground. We don't see full-on ag until well into the Holocene, about 10,000 years ago.

But modern humans (Homo sapiens) replace Neandertals by about 30,000 years ago. So the development of agriculture couldn't have had anything to do with it. Even still, human hunter-gatherers out-competed Neandertal hunter-gatherers (in an ecological sense, there was probably never direct fighting), and more complex cultural innovations probably had a lot to do with it. From roughly 250,000-50,000 years ago, humans (who evolved in Africa) and Neandertals (hanging out in Europe and Asia) made essentially the same technology. But by 50,000 years ago, we see an explosion of new technologies associated with Homo sapiens. Things like art and complex symbolism (e.g., cave paintings, beads, and musical instruments), bone tools (e.g., fish hooks, harpoons, and needles), and true projectile technology that was used to hunt a wider variety of game. Modern humans carried this technology out of Africa with them and replaced Neandertals (and probably other Archaic species as well). We never see comparable technologies developed by Neandertals. Nor do they seem to adopt them after contact with modern humans.

Now, does this mean Neandertals were less intelligent than modern humans? The short answer is maybe. We occasionally see cool behavioral innovations and technology show up in Neandertal sites-- things like the stalagmite circles in the article OP posted, use of pigments, and a few bone beads and pendants. But these things are usually only found at one or a couple of sites for very brief periods of time, and never seem to spread. So even though Neandertals did innovate, those innovations were less "sticky". That could be due to a bunch of reasons. They lived at really low population densities, so small group sizes and a lack of regular contact between groups may have played some role. There could have also been differences in cognition or learning. We're not really sure. Neandertals were very successful from at least 250,000-30,000 years ago. They had a basic toolkit they used very flexibly to deal with changes in Pleistocene climates and resources. Think of it as the "Swiss Army" approach to technology.

So while raw intelligence is almost impossible to measure archaeologically, we do know that Homo sapiens rapidly developed new technologies around 50,000 years ago, and used them to out-compete Neandertals. Tools were more advanced, were more functionally specific, and when innovations happened they spread rapidly. Certainly a fundamentally different approach to adaptation, if nothing else.

[–]kare_kano 17ポイント18ポイント  (0子コメント)

If you haven't read it already, you might enjoy "Darwin's Radio" by Greg Bear (sci-fi). It uses a surprising but very scientifically entertaining explanation for the dissapearance of the Neanderthals.

[–]Tiako 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

From roughly 250,000-50,000 years ago, humans (who evolved in Africa) and Neandertals (hanging out in Europe and Asia) made essentially the same technology. But by 50,000 years ago, we see an explosion of new technologies associated with Homo sapiens.

I think there is some very good reason to be cautious about this narrative. The explosion of homo sapiens culture also coincides with their entrance into Europe, where the vast majority of paleolithic research has been located. There is as of yet no strong reason to doubt that the separation of "biological modernity" and "behavioral modernity" is much more than an artefact of research, and indeed in recent years art and complex tool innovation (such as fishing nets) has been found in southeast Asia and Africa long predating the "behavioral modernity". There is also some theoretical grounds to doubt the separation, as by the time "behavioral modernity" comes about homo sapiens had already radiated across Africa and southern Asia, even across the Wallace Line.

[–]ProssiblyNot 204ポイント205ポイント  (51子コメント)

National Geographic has some fantastic articles on Neanderthals, like this one: http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2008/10/neanderthals/hall-text

One of the things that always stood out was that the Neanderthals required a caloric intake about 50% higher than homo sapien sapiens. This meant that modern humans could survive longer on merely foraging. We also were able to divvy up responsibilities - males hunting, females and children foraging. In contrast, female Neanderthals participated in hunting large game; a highly dangerous task, this imposed some limits on their population growth. This always stood out to me because it wasn't about modern humans being smarter, or warfare, or disease, or inbreeding; the Neanderthals simply weren't genetically or biologically equipped to adapt to the new climate the way modern humans were.

[–]carmenellie 112ポイント113ポイント  (24子コメント)

According to my physical anthropology class, it is speculated that a large amount of that increased caloric need came from the fact that neanderthals had bigger brains than humans, and brains require lots of calories and nutrients that are relatively rare in nature. It's unknown if this meant they were more intelligent, because of possible differences in brain structure.

[–]ProssiblyNot 73ポイント74ポイント  (5子コメント)

Absolutely. I believe that the Nat Geo article mentions their larger brain size. But Neanderthals also hit puberty several years earlier than modern humans, around 10, I believe. If I'm not mistaken, this gave the Neanderthal youth a shorter period of time to learn and master essential skills, like tool making.

[–]-del2phi 45ポイント46ポイント  (4子コメント)

Why would they have to stop learning after puberty?

[–]ProssiblyNot 38ポイント39ポイント  (2子コメント)

They didn't necessarily stop learning, but they had less time to perfect their skills. Let's say toolmaking. Making a spear with a flawed spearhead or an spearhead that is not securely fashioned could mean death while hunting large game. Also, it's generally accepted that learning slows after puberty.

[–]NorthDakota 12ポイント13ポイント  (0子コメント)

No it doesn't! I'm as young and vital as ever! My limbs, just as supple! My mind, keen as mustard!

[–]questioneverything_ 6ポイント7ポイント  (1子コメント)

The reason for the larger brain size was that they had an occipital bun - a bulge in their visual cortex. It's hypothesised that neanderthals required superior vision to us due to the all-white I've environment they lived in.

So no, at present we dont think they were smarter, just really good at seeing stuff!

[–]superatheist95 22ポイント23ポイント  (25子コメント)

Would you know of anything on modern human vs 150,000 year ago human intelligence?

[–]Thakrawr 40ポイント41ポイント  (10子コメント)

That's an interesting question that I'd like to know the answer to. It's theorized today that you could switch a Roman baby born, say 100 AD (just as an example) and switch it with a baby born today and they would grow up completely normal for their times. The baby born today and transplanted back to ancient Rome wouldn't be more intelligent then the average Roman and the roman baby in modern times would not be any less intelligent then a modern person.

[–]kare_kano 30ポイント31ポイント  (7子コメント)

"For their times" being the key concept here ie. they would each be normal to their relative mediums. But the one that gets to grow up in the modern world might be more intelligent on an absolute scale, because it is speculated that intelligence is stimulated by the medium and the exposure (even passive) to abundant information and advanced technology. (Also see the Flynn effect.)

[–]Thakrawr 15ポイント16ポイント  (2子コメント)

I just think it is because we have more access to knowledge, not that we are necessarily more intelligent then an ancient person.

[–]ParrotofDoom 17ポイント18ポイント  (3子コメント)

Would diet and improved health not also contribute toward higher intelligence?

[–]HappyZavulon 13ポイント14ポイント  (2子コメント)

Not worrying about getting eaten by wolves or starving and being able to go to school will probably make you smarter.

[–]ProssiblyNot 22ポイント23ポイント  (13子コメント)

I'm by no means an expert, but in this thread, one commenter notes that "behavioural modern humans" appeared about 60,000-50,000 years ago. Anatomically "modern" humans appeared, I believe, around 200,000 years ago.

So humans from about 150,000 years ago would be "primitive" by our standards and not capable of our level of complex thought.

[–]sunsour 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

behaviour is by and large based on your surroundings. They may have the same capacity for complex thought at birth, but they would have way less chance to develop it.

[–]shpongolian 78ポイント79ポイント  (68子コメント)

Would be really interesting to co-exist with another species of person.

[–]tapesonthefloor 124ポイント125ポイント  (48子コメント)

You would likely be frightened of them, or abhor them, the way our species does today of anything not conforming to narrow definitions.

Or you would not recognize them as people, the way we currently treat other highly intelligent mammals.

So it would really only be "interesting" for the one party. It would be eventually deadly for the other.

[–]cowfreak 48ポイント49ポイント  (30子コメント)

I agree that's how 'the other' is usually treated. This is why I would love to know how Europeans ended up with a small % of Neanderthal DNA. It might not be a love story...

[–]carmenellie 25ポイント26ポイント  (7子コメント)

There's currently evidence of trade and culture sharing between sapiens and neanderthals, there was probably also interbreeding in various situations. Not ruling out pillaging and raping, but there is the possibility of more peaceful gene sharing.

[–]Jwalla83 5ポイント6ポイント  (6子コメント)

Did the Neanderthals have language? Was there verbal communication between Sapiens and Neanderthals?

[–]AwwwComeOnLOU 28ポイント29ポイント  (4子コメント)

I bet there were some Dads who were deeply disappointed that their new child looked so Neanderthal. (J)

[–]supah 8ポイント9ポイント  (3子コメント)

Actually no, a recent study found that interspecies children could only be from female Neanderthal + male Human. Other way around it was impossible. Quick read for you.

[–]HanlonsElectricRazor 70ポイント71ポイント  (8子コメント)

Human nature says it was probably awful. Rape, slavery, that sort of thing.

[–]Anus_Blenders 63ポイント64ポイント  (0子コメント)

"Probably awful" is a safe assumption when it comes to human history.

[–]triksterx 13ポイント14ポイント  (6子コメント)

Considering humans weren't really more advanced than Neanderthals at that point, it's probably safe to say slavery wasn't really a thing back then. Remember, this was back when humans would have been nomadic hunter gatherers, and keeping slaves would have been a huge drain on resources since you couldn't really use them for hunting. It wouldn't take too many mishaps for humans to figure out it's not smart to give a captive a weapon and freedom of movement. Now rape, that probably happened. But I'd bet it happened in both directions. And it was probably less rape and more forcible mating. Remember, context matters when throwing around words like rape in a discussion on unobservable behaviors.

[–]tivooo 10ポイント11ポイント  (1子コメント)

what is forcible mating? sounds like rape to me.

[–]triksterx 16ポイント17ポイント  (0子コメント)

Like I said, context matters. When we are looking at primitive human behavior, you can't apply the same definitions to them, since they are closer to animal behaviors than actual human behaviors. Just because the mating was forced doesn't mean we can call it rape, or at the very least it shouldn't carry the same negative connotations that it does in modern human society and shouldn't be attributed to human nature (using the strictest definition of rape, it's animal behavior since all species do it).

[–]-WISCONSIN- 17ポイント18ポイント  (6子コメント)

Virtually all humans save for Sub-Saharan Africans have trace amounts of Neanderthal DNA. It's not just Europeans.

East Asians additionally bear trace amounts of Denisovan DNA.

[–]Aussiewhiskeydiver 12ポイント13ポイント  (3子コメント)

A book I'm reading at the moment goes into this. Basically Sapiens have the advantage because they are able to create 'legal fiction' that is abstract concepts like values and religion which allows them to work collectively in larger numbers because they're driven by a purpose. Without this the largest group that can effectively work together is roughly 150 people.

[–]snigwich 18ポイント19ポイント  (0子コメント)

I think Neanderthals were as intelligent as Homo sapiens.

There's no reason to think that. If you'd like to learn more about neanderthals and ancient hominids I'd recommend watching the various CARTA symposiums on YouTube and anything you can find by Svante Pääbo:

https://youtu.be/W8ZTp-gs-Ok

https://youtu.be/CRmA1LrMyDE

https://youtu.be/Y92iIeN46GM

https://youtu.be/wCuQw5I1-z0

https://youtu.be/igrL9FypiZc

https://youtu.be/o25ANiRAMvM

https://youtu.be/AfsoAVYEVJE

https://youtu.be/XdP-Wjd1qSY

https://youtu.be/PGS7unca-ZQ

[–]ClarkFablePhD | Economics 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

My speculation is that they never got 10000 years of climate stability like humans enjoyed during the Holocene.

At the same time, wasn't it the instability via increasing temperatures, culminating in the Holocene thermal maximum, that helped force an increase in homo sapien population density via a reduction in the widespread access to fresh water, that helped lead to the development of cities?

[–]websnarf 12ポイント13ポイント  (1子コメント)

I think Neanderthals were as intelligent as Homo sapiens.

That's a fairly minority position ...

My speculation is that they never got 10000 years of climate stability like humans enjoyed during the Holocene.

Except they did. Neanderthals existed between 350kya and 42kya. Now look at the global temperatures for that period. So there was a warm period between 110,000 and 125,000 years ago that would be about as warm as it is now (omitting very recent climate change effects for the moment).

OTOH, humans were lucky enough to live during a time were the global temperature remained +- 1 C for ten thousands years.

Ok, first of all, the term "humans" applies both to Neanderthals and Homo sapiens. Second of all, the prehistoric agricultural theories have settled on the idea that basic domestication of cereal crops occurred in at most a few centuries; i.e., the only thing preventing homo sapiens from developing agriculture was a relatively brief period of time when climate allowed for it.

(Just look at the Kebaran -> Natufian development relative to the Bølling-Allerød interstadial and the Younger Dryas. The Ice Age stopped briefly, they tried to adopt sedentism and were on their way leaving archeological evidence, then the ice age came back, and it pwned them. And when the ice age ended for real, modern societies basically formed. This is all described in Steven Mithen's After the Ice in the "Western Asia" chapter at the beginning).

Third of all, 15,000 years seems like plenty of time (the 110,000 to 125,000 time period I was referring to) to develop agriculture even if, for some reason, you are running somewhat slower than the Natufians.

Technologies like agriculture and writing had time to grow and develop in a relatively stable climate.

Writing follows from advanced cultures growing out of agricultural societies. That is to say, agriculture by itself is the essential bottleneck of concern, writing is almost inevitable once an agricultural society gets large and sophisticated enough.

After 9,500 years of a stable climate and accumulation of information, the renaissance happened, from there industrialization and the Information Age happened.

Well ... as Jared Diamond correctly points out (in "Guns, Germs, and Steel" and other publications of his), it is actually geography that creates the climate stability. Basically, the Middle-East, Indus Valley, and some parts of China are basically in climate zones where one can develop long-term agriculture sedentary societies.

You only need some kind of reasonable interstadial period between ice ages, which the Neanderthals definitely experienced (and yet failed to develop agricultural societies).

[–]superatheist95 4ポイント5ポイント  (1子コメント)

Could I ask what your credentials or sources are?

I agree with you. But this is the first time ive seen a mention of something that has been a longstanding thing between a friend and I.

[–]Izoto 4ポイント5ポイント  (1子コメント)

So, if the climate had stabilized just a thousand years earlier, we'd possible be more advanced right now?

[–]screech_owl_kachina 10ポイント11ポイント  (0子コメント)

Well, the industrial revolution could have happened sooner, in which case we'd be enduring the lasting effects of our own climate change.

[–]Starphysics 15ポイント16ポイント  (1子コメント)

Why are these so often found in France?

[–]Monsis101 11ポイント12ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'm no expert but I think it has to do with caves and them preserving evidence. So, the more caves, the more potential preserved finds. I could be totally wrong,

[–]DrakJay 14ポイント15ポイント  (2子コメント)

The neanderthals were outbred, not outsmarted.

[–]8-Bit-Gamer 79ポイント80ポイント  (17子コメント)

You ever wonder how many of these "miracle finds" that will "change our understand of how our ancestors lived" which will inevitably "cause us to rewrite our history books" are actually just some dude thousands of years ago... you know... just messing around? Creating art? Curing Boredom? Making something because its freaking awesome? ... just like many many many modern humans do?

Not to detract from the find itself. But sometimes I think we over analyze and there really is no culture, ritualistic or any other myriad of "hidden" reasons for when people create whatever it is that we find.

How many times have we been wrong about a sacrificial table. Or spectacularly designed cave. Or a ridiculous, yet fabulously designed home/dwelling.

"Likes theres no reason dude - I just made this cuz its awesome!"

[–]apatite 50ポイント51ポイント  (3子コメント)

The main thing that's impressive about this is that Neanderthals had the extra time and creativity to make anything that is "awesome" at all in between the time they had to spend on hunting and gathering.

Edit: Support from the article:

Regardless what exactly the rings were used for, Jaubert argues their mere construction is a wonder—a feat far more complex than many anthropologists might believe Neanderthals are capable of.

"This certainly was a collective work, and required at least a minimum of social organization," Jaubert told Popular Mechanics. "This task really was a project, which was likely discussed between several [Neanderthals]. Then it took organized work and the assignment of tasks. Some had to carry torches, some had to move and transport materials, some had place them in this specific configuration, and so on." The discovery paints a picture of Neanderthals as far more socially complex than the classic (although now discredited) Far Side image of a crude, dim-witted species.

[–]Luai_lashire 13ポイント14ポイント  (2子コメント)

The article suggests this possibility itself: "Just what the Neanderthals were building deep within this French cave is not altogether clear. The rings could have been manically crafted during a single, accidental underground visit. They could have been frequently visited and played a more important function, as a refuge or spiritual destination, in Neanderthal activities. For now, this is just guesswork."

Note that with the phrase "manically crafted", they're implying that it was an impulsive act of creation that had no deeper meaning. As opposed to the other major option, a sort of ritual site that was visited regularly and had symbolic meaning of some kind.

Personally, I'm more skeptical of the insistence that it had to be crafted by multiple people. I'm pretty sure a single person could have lit a stationary fire, set aside their torch, and methodically worked their way through the whole project.

[–]newshoebluedoos 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

There's definitely assumptions that people back in history were dull and almost always in some kind of primitive survival mode. It's actually very silly to assume that. They had a lot of free time too. No way there wasn't lots of screwing around. That's how we got where we are now after all.

[–]iushciuweiush 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'm not sure how they concluded this part:

Regardless what exactly the rings were used for, Jaubert argues their mere construction is a wonder—a feat far more complex than many anthropologists might believe Neanderthals are capable of.

Really? Breaking off stalagmites from the ground, heating them over a fire, and stacking them in a neat arrangement is something that was thought to be 'far more complex' than one of our closest human relatives was capable of? Then they get even deeper...

"This task really was a project, which was likely discussed between several [Neanderthals]. Then it took organized work and the assignment of tasks. Some had to carry torches, some had to move and transport materials, some had place them in this specific configuration, and so on."

Excuse me? Where in the hell did this conclusion come from? This structure was built by one man and yet we somehow conclude that this relatively small fire pit took an organized construction crew of neanderthals to build?

[–]dammitkarissa 6ポイント7ポイント  (3子コメント)

Although Bruniquel Cave was discovered in 1992 and clearly had primitive paintings near the cavern's mouth, only now have scientists like Jaubert been able to delve and explore into the cave's depths.

What took so long?

[–]Dutchguy12345 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

Anyone with actual knowledge of the subject and discovery want to weigh in on this? This seems extremely editorialized.

[–]SortofLike 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

There was an article posted here some time ago I'm having difficulty finding. It showed body types that might hint at having a strong Neanderthal lineage. If anyone remembers it, please direct me there.

[–]Qazdthm 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

I feel like lately there has been a large amount of archeological breakthroughs lately. First off, has there been or am I crazy? Secondly, what's causing this? Is there some new technology available?