全 18 件のコメント

[–]Thomas_Amundsen_mahayana 3ポイント4ポイント  (2子コメント)

I've done it and have seen the beings before. Most speculation on this I've seen is that it is one of the bardos, which seems to make sense to me as it really does feel like you are dying. There is also speculation that DMT plays a role in the moments of birth and death.

[–]KimUnhinayana 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

What do the beings look like?

[–]Thomas_Amundsen_mahayana 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I made a painting of what I saw. I'm not a good painter, though, obviously. I was inside of a huge emerald jewel-lattice dome. The beings emerged from and were part of the lattice itself. Mine seemed to be slightly different than other accounts, although I have heard a few different descriptions from various people now. It seems like there is some variation to exactly what you see and how the beings look. Mine had moustaches, which I've never heard from anyone else before.

[–]Xolanitibetan[🍰] 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

I think dismissing the links between psychedelic substances and spirituality/religion out of hand is pretty silly. At the very least this should be something that's debated openly and not hush-hushed because it makes some people uncomfortable. What people project onto certain substances as "intoxicant" or whatever else in a similar vein to alcohol are in fact, relatively modern projections onto substances that in the past have not been viewed in any such light.

[–]krodha 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Highly realized adepts (bodhisattvas on the pure bhūmis) begin to see the Sambhogakāya to varying degrees as they approach buddhahood, and also encounter other beings in pure vision, without the use of entheogens.

[–]Jhana4 3ポイント4ポイント  (10子コメント)

Fantasies about the UN/federal government or aliens beaming thoughts into their head are common among schizophrenics, so common there is the clinched joke about "tinfoil hats".

Doesn't make the existence of aliens or government telepathy machines true.

who said that? :)

[–]krodha -2ポイント-1ポイント  (9子コメント)

Not sure how this is relevant to the inquiry in the OP though.

[–]Jhana4 0ポイント1ポイント  (8子コメント)

OPs reasoning was that if X number of people disrupt their brains with Y they will see Z, therefore Z must be true.

I showed the same reasoning does not apply elsewhere. Many people with their brains disrupted in other ways also agree on seeing/hearing things, but those things are known not to be true.

The truth is out there :)

[–]krodha 1ポイント2ポイント  (7子コメント)

OPs reasoning was that if X number of people disrupt their brains with Y they will see Z, therefore Z must be true.

You're insinuating that the identical experiences of countless individuals with entheogens, spanning a time frame that very well may be over a millennia, common to cultures spanning the globe, are merely fantasies? That result from "disrupting the brain"? Sounds like some convenient materialist thinking.

[–]Temicco 1ポイント2ポイント  (3子コメント)

To say that /u/Jhana4's stance is "convenient" says nothing about its validity, though. You haven't provided any counterargument.

What experiences are identical? Entheogens tend to produce similar themes across people and culture and time, but I think to say that they produce identical experiences is a bit of a stretch. Drugs tend to have roughly similar effects across populations. When it comes to entheogens, this study, for instance, explores the effects of psilocybin on the parts of the brain involved with dreaming. I see no evidence to think that entheogenic experiences show you anything more than the clarity of the mind :)

[–]krodha -1ポイント0ポイント  (2子コメント)

Entheogens tend to produce similar themes across people and culture and time, but I think to say that they produce identical experiences is a bit of a stretch.

I said "said entheogens", in reference to DMT specifically, and the common theme of encountering other intelligent beings during that experience. So they are identical in that respect, though I attached the caveat that said experiences may differ slightly in nature.

Drugs tend to have roughly similar effects across populations.

Although I personally wouldn't classify DMT as a "drug". It is a neurotransmitter, and is a compound found in most flora and fauna. If we are going to classify DMT as a "drug" then we will have to extend that classification to serotonin, for example. While the argument can be made, it hardy seems appropriate or fit.

I see no evidence to think that entheogenic experiences show you anything more than the clarity of the mind

Depending on what system you follow, all appearances can be classified as expressions of the mind, but this is somewhat besides the point.

[–]Temicco 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

There's still the question of whether experiences arise based on complex interplay of matter (incl. neurotransmitters) in the brain. I've never seen any compelling evidence against this thesis (even if to proclaim its truth would be unscientific), and calling the above commenter's materialism "convenient" is a convenient way to avoid substantiating your position IMO :P

Is there any reason to think that DMT is substantially different from other hallucinogens, such that regardless of the "truth" of lesser hallucinogens, DMT involves accessing the bardo or something? It just seems to me the line is being drawn between experiences that involve contacting other supposedly beings and those that do not. It feels like an arbitrary place to draw the line, but perhaps I'm misreading the situation. What do you think about DMT in respect to other hallucinogens, and what each set might have to show us?

[–]krodha -2ポイント-1ポイント  (0子コメント)

There's still the question of whether experiences arise based on complex interplay of matter (incl. neurotransmitters) in the brain.

Introducing a surge in this particular property clearly has an effect on consciousness. Whether we relegate that occurrence to a status of being merely mechanical, or otherwise, is going to reflect our worldview.

and calling the above commenter's materialism "convenient" is a convenient way to avoid substantiating your position IMO

The point is that it is convenient to simply dismiss experiences of that nature outright based on the view that our baseline experience of consciousness is solely true, while other so-called "altered" states of consciousness are fallacious. Such an attitude is indicative of a materialist outlook.

Is there any reason to think that DMT is substantially different from other hallucinogens

Yes, it is a different animal entirely.

DMT involves accessing the bardo or something?

This is not a claim that I made. Although since the bardo can be accessed while still clinically alive through certain practices, a claim of that nature isn't that much of a stretch.

It just seems to me the line is being drawn between experiences that involve contacting other supposedly beings and those that do not.

I'm simply noting that it is common to receive reports of having interacted with other intelligent beings from those who have had DMT experiences. I have friends who have also reported this. It is a widely occurring phenomenon.

What do you think about DMT in respect to other hallucinogens

It is radically different from what I can tell. And I have heard this from friends who have tried it. One friend in particular who is very seasoned in terms of a long history of involvement with entheogens, said that while taking mushrooms or lsd for example, he felt "messed up" in the sense of being under the influence of a psychoactive agent. But this was not the case with DMT. With DMT he reported that he felt completely lucid and normal, and the world around him simply fell away. During the entire experience he felt completely normal and not under the influence at all. The only thing that changed was his surroundings, and he was convinced that he either traveled somewhere else, or simply saw a facet of reality that is always present yet cannot be encountered from the standpoint of our baseline everyday state of consciousness. He too reported interacting with other beings who answered questions for him.

[–]Jhana4 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

I'm not insinuating, I'm flat out stating, and you don't know how many individuals had that experience, nor do you know that their experiences were identical.

Sounds like some convenient materialist thinking.

You say that like it is a bad thing :)

Have a good night

[–]krodha 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'm not insinuating, I'm flat out stating, and you don't know how many individuals had that experience, nor do you know that their experiences were identical.

We do know that innumerable individuals have had "that experience". Practically everyone who has had an experience with said entheogens reports the same species of experience. So the occurrence is fairly uniform in that respect, save for some minor variations I'm sure. Tell me, since I doubt from your attitude that you have had any direct or personal experience with these entheogens, have you at least studied dimethyltriptamine or ayahuasca?

You say that like it is a bad thing

It is a bad thing. Materialism is an archaic worldview. The fact that materialism has been the reigning paradigm in the west for quite some time now does not validate it. If anything it simply speaks to the shortcomings of our relationship with ourselves and the world in general. Shortcomings that as a species, destroying ourselves and our environment, stare us in the face everyday.

[–]clickstation 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Similar circumstances/situations, similar hallucinations, that's pretty common.

Sleep paralysis / night terrors, for example.

[–]dimwit-eejitWestern Zen -2ポイント-1ポイント  (1子コメント)

If you see Buddha on ' the way' kill him. All phenomena are illusionary like visions dreams and drug induced experiences. In fact there's little difference between these and the religious worship of Buddha.

But funnily enough the delusions of the lower mind are also ' more real than real,' that's why so hard to discern reality from illusion. A bit like wearing a VR headset ....

[–]CPGumbyDharmic 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

All phenomena are illusionary like visions dreams and drug induced experiences.

So you really don't recognise a difference between ordinary consciousness and altered states of consciousness?