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Understanding Mourinho's approach to youth (self.reddevils)

3entendreRooney が 投稿

This is my 2nd post on Mourinho in about a week. can't help but over analyse our potential next manager, so I've been thinking a lot about why he hardly gave youth a chance during his career.

I guess I have to start with his stint at Porto. I read up on his wikipedia page and it stated that Mourinho was hired by Porto in late January 2002, when Porto were 5th in the Portuguese league and bottom of their champions league group(there used to be 2 group stages at that time). he finished that season strongly in 3rd, and promised to make them champions the next season.

now, anyone who makes such a statement, which is what the fans and management of Porto wanted, is not going to start blooding in 17 and 18 year old players. 2-3 years down the road, after wining some trophies and earning more respect, maybe.

Mourinho went on to win a treble the next season(including UEFA Cup), and the league + champions league double in 03/04. his goals and achievements in 2 and a half years at Porto did not necessitate him trying out any kids.

On to Chelsea and their owner Roman Abramovic, who also wanted immediate success, or else he wouldn't have fired the likable Claudio Ranieri. Mourinho helped chelsea win their first league title in 50 years, and added other trophies in his 3 year spell there. once again, given the club and owner's expectations of him, he realistically had no time to give youth a chance.

next stop: Inter Milan, who had been winning the Serie A without much effort but under performing in europe. Again, Mourinho's main target with Inter Milan, as demanded by the owner Moratti and the fans, was to win the champions league as soon as possible. again, he achieved his target within 2 years, and again, considering what was expected of him, didn't have much opportunity to give youth a chance.

On to Real Madrid and Florentino Perez, with a win now culture. Madrid had just sacked a number of coaches, including Manuel Pellegrini, who had finished the 2009-2010 season in 2nd place with a whopping 96 points. 96 points!!!

the culture at Madrid means a manager has on average about 1.5 seasons with the team before they are fired. no manager there has time to look at youth, period.

finally, he ends up at Chelsea who had been under performing in the league for about 3 years, despite their success in europe. Abramovic had got his champions league title, so now he wanted to change the culture of the club and try to bring some youth products through.

the problem any Chelsea manager has with their youth is that the club just basically go out and buy too many prospects from around the globe, which is why so many are loaned out. it is just hard to keep track of all of them, and eventually you will let some slip out of your hands, like Kevin De Bruyne.

Mourinho however thought that this time around, he'd be at Chelsea for a long time, and while he was able to do well in the league, and europe even, you could see that he had more time for the youth, promoting players like Ruben Loftus-Cheek to the first team, and talking about how clubs should close their academies if they don't intend to promote their youth.

If he does join United, this will be the first time that he really is expected to give youth a chance, because everyone at the club, from the fans to the Board, want to see that. We already have a great bunch led by Rashford that he can work with as he adds more steel and experience to the group.

I genuinely think he is a very intelligent guy who is obsessed with achieving his goals. one of them this time round happens to involve working with youth. I believe he will exceed all his targets at United, as he has always done.

tldr: United is the first club that will want Mourinho to promote youth. All the others from Porto to Chelsea, to Inter to Madrid just wanted him to win immediately.

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[–]essjay2009Mourinho 10ポイント11ポイント  (0子コメント)

Something you're overlooking is that in his first spell at Chelsea he completely revamped the youth set up, which was pretty woeful at the time. But, because of Cobham, it took years to put his plans in to action (mostly issues around planning and the local council). The general belief is that in his first spell at Chelsea there simply weren't enough academy prospects of the required quality to bring through. There were more in his second spell, partly thanks to the changes he instigated first time round, and as such, he did.

It's also a little unfair for people to claim he doesn't play youth. At Chelsea he used the youngest side on average to win the premier league (younger than our "you'll win nothing with kids" winning side) and at Porto a third of his team came through their youth set up.

If they're good enough, he'll play them.

[–]DublinguistSmalling 23ポイント24ポイント  (2子コメント)

I hate reading over and over how chelsea have this amazing u-21 squad that won this and that and Jose never used them....where the fuck are they then if they're so good? Why aren't bayern and PSG trying to poach them?

[–]lolJME 5ポイント6ポイント  (1子コメント)

Because it's a culture problem at the club. Mourinho didn't help but ultimately it comes down to the way we're run. United fans probably have no interest in reading something about Chelsea but this is one of the best pieces written on a few problems - https://changeisgoingtocome.wordpress.com/2016/05/04/elgert-emenalo-chelsea-and-spurs/

[–]19Dan81Tempo 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

That's a very good read. Thanks for sharing.

[–]IDontKnowHowManyTimeMartial 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Good analysis mate, enjoyed reading! Appreciate that you put so much effort in this writing, its actually better than tabloid journalism every so called journalists follow these days.

[–]19Dan81Tempo 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

Developing youth players. The emphasis here is "developing."

Manchester United have a proud history of developing Academy players into quality first team players.

This season LVG got praise for the Academy players that made their debut following a tradition at the club since 1937. However, there wasn't a developing of talent per se. Cast your mind back to '92. Beckham, Scholes, the Neville's, and Butt. These players were given first team appearances in low risk games (last game of Champions League group stage with qualification guaranteed, Premier League games when the league is won and the League Cup) surrounded by professionals who have a winning mentality of major silverware. This is the perfect scenario for developing Academy players and Fergie did it since the first Title. LVG didn't do that, he threw Academy players into competitive games to sink or swim in an environment that wasn't winning.

It's true Mourinho has followed the mandate as per contractual objectives to win with little thought of the clubs Academy. Does it mean he isn't the right person for the Utd job? Quite the opposite. As far as I'm concerned, 1-3 years of buying in proven winners to get the club back to winning league titles and Champions League is the best possible "development" for our Academy players. If José integrates them into a winning atmosphere in low risk games he will be following a blueprint set by Sir, Alex a quarter of a century ago.

[–]ParkerZAYoung 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Spot on. This is all we want to see, youth being given a fair chance. While not all of our youth products worked out, they were given a chance and went on to do well elsewhere. Those that did became valuable members of our squad. Guys like Fletcher, Brown, O'Shea, Evans, Rafael... if the time comes when the manager has to make a decision between buying a player or promoting from within the club, I hope he gives the young player a chance. There's a loyalty and love for the club you'll only get from those that have been brought up from within the culture of the club.

So while I do hope Jose strengthens us in the summer, god knows we need it, I hope he keeps guys like Januzaj and Perreria in mind.

[–]flipinit 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Good read. I think more people need to be clear that he has been in positions where there was no emphasis to bring through youth. I would also like to point out that he brought Balotelli and Santon into the Inter team from the youth system.

[–]dylansavage -2ポイント-1ポイント  (7子コメント)

didn't have much opportunity to give youth a chance.

You sure did repeat that phrase a lot in a post that is trying to defend his youth policy.

[–]3entendreRooney[S] 3ポイント4ポイント  (5子コメント)

Because that was the recurring theme at the clubs he went to, and the point of the post!

[–]dylansavage -4ポイント-3ポイント  (4子コメント)

It just seems like a bit of a cop out.

Proof would be things he has done to promote youth in the past, it needs to be tangible. This is just pure speculation that not only isn't based on actual facts but manages to go against his recent trends. He has had plenty of opportunities to promote youth but has decided to go another way, and for the most part it paid off for him.

A case can be made for anything, but I imagine that it would be much easier to build a case around the notion that he doesn't promote youth as opposed to a case that he does promote youth.

It comes across as you making up your mind about what he will do in the future and using the data to fit your narrative rather than looking at the data without bias to come to an informed conclusion.

[–]3entendreRooney[S] 2ポイント3ポイント  (3子コメント)

When exactly did he have plenty of opportunities to promote youth?

[–]dylansavage -3ポイント-2ポイント  (2子コメント)

Let me put it another way. Every manager has opportunities to promote academy prospects at every major club.

There have been numerous examples of players going on to have successful careers after not getting the chance under Jose. Kdb Lakaku Sturridge off the top of my mind and I'm sure research would present you with more.

[–]3entendreRooney[S] 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

Lol Sturridge? He's a product of the Man City Academy and was never at Chelsea at the same time as Mourinho.

You say that like Mourinho let them go and wasn't successful after. The fact that he won the league and went to the CL semis without KDB and Lukaku justifies his choices. The jury is still out on Lukaku by the way.

Also, you're an Arsenal fan claiming we're seeing what we want to see in regards to Mourinho.. How about you just stick to your sub and discuss the merits of your own manager?

[–]dylansavage 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I said I gave a quick list from the top of my head and I already talked about how Mou has been justified in his decisions in regards to youth btw, you might have missed that.

and for the most part it paid off for him.

It still doesn't prove that he will promote youth however. If you are going to make that claim at least try to push through some evidence, otherwise all you doing is baseless speculating.

I got here through google because I was researching his youth policy for a conversation on /r/soccer and thought your post might be informative. What I did find was a post trying very hard to ignore facts to push speculation. I haven't tried to be inflammatory or tried troll but because I was invested in this topic anyway I decided to comment. If you really are against any opposing views I will happily delete my entire comment thread. Most sports subs I comment on don't mind who who support as long as you are trying to facilitate discussion.

[–]mink_manMourinho -2ポイント-1ポイント  (0子コメント)

It's the same thing in this sub everywhere. People telling themselves what they want to believe is true.

Would love to see some of the people commenting in here when he was Chelsea manager.

[–]drjpkc -1ポイント0ポイント  (1子コメント)

Hope he does not ditch Rashford for some other older striker

[–]Joeleus 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

You could reason this the other way. Rashford needs an older striker. I don't want to see what happens when we put our scoring hopes on the shoulders of an 18 year old and he eventually comes into a poor run of form.

That's why having an older striker will be good for him. It takes the pressure off him and provides him with someone to learn from. Drogba for example credits shevchenko with giving him someone to emulate even though shevchenko was considered a failure.

That's why I think zlatan will be a good signing. Someone who scores the absolutely insane amount of goals he does as consistently as he does can provide a good example for rashford. But he's still old enough that he won't block rashfords eventual first team place.

[–]nerongodLVG -1ポイント0ポイント  (1子コメント)

So Mourinho has basicly never built a squad for long term success in his entire career. That means he has no experience in doing it and we don't even know if he can, so this is pretty much another gamble by the board?

[–]3entendreRooney[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

If you see it that way, then yes.