2494
2495

By 50.3% to 49.7%Austria rejects 'far-right president' (bbc.com)

FriedEggOfTreachery が 投稿

上位 200 件のコメント表示する 500
並べ替え:
ベスト
トップ新着論争中古い順Q&A

[–]Bhima 3359ポイント3360ポイント  (418子コメント)

The title for this submission is bad and OP should feel bad for altering the original title of piece: Austria far-right narrowly loses poll, Van der Bellen elected president

From the first line of the article "Mr Hofer led narrowly after Sunday's election but postal votes gave Mr Van der Bellen victory by 50.3% to 49.7%.". When 49.7% of those who vote, voted for the losing candidate, the results can hardly be called a "rejection".

Don't get me wrong though, I'm pleased with the results but they're absolutely not evidence that the Austrian people have rejected the FPÖ.

Edit: So it appears that real culprits for this bad title business is the BBC as it was their original title and they edited it... presumably after this submission was made and before I read it.

The original can be found here: https://web.archive.org/web/20160523141250/http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36362505

[–]MSPTechAtWork 872ポイント873ポイント  (331子コメント)

When 49.7% of those who vote, voted for the losing candidate, the results can hardly be called a "rejection".

That's how the U.S. election is going to go. The candidate with 50.3% will declare some kind of holy mandate to the office, and the 49.7% will be treated as a vanquished enemy and more or less written off for the next four to eight years.

[–]theatanamonster 294ポイント295ポイント  (97子コメント)

Not just the presidency. The media is complicit as it gives politicians this weird notion that 90% of the people agree with 90% of their ideas when in reality it's closer to 50% of people agree with around 70% of their ideas. And then no accountability.

[–]Psyc5 149ポイント150ポイント  (53子コメント)

In the UK we have a government that got 36% of the vote and then is pushing through even more extreme policies that not only did it not mention while campaigning, it actually campaigned on the opposite. So even the 36% who did vote for them, didn't vote for what they are doing.

[–]bse50 27ポイント28ポイント  (3子コメント)

Do you have a moment to talk about Italy? :(

[–]JarkAttack 14ポイント15ポイント  (2子コメント)

Do you have a moment to talk about Italy? :(

What are you doing, asking for our charity? Begone peasant

[–]rentar42 32ポイント33ポイント  (3子コメント)

Wait, so if the government doesn't do what it promised and 36% voted on those promises, doesn't that mean that 64% agree with what they're doing now?

That's how it works, right?

コメントをもっと表示する (45 返事)

    [–]CantHugEveryCat 30ポイント31ポイント  (7子コメント)

    I'm not sure politicians really believe their own bullshit. To them constituents are just cattle they need to appease, in order to get their vote. When in office, they can finally deal with the real issues that matter to the people whose opinions really matter.

    [–]ropahex 17ポイント18ポイント  (0子コメント)

    When in office, they can finally deal with the real issues that matter to the people whose opinions really matter.

    yep, the lobbies who then give them high paying do nothing consultant jobs in their international firms

    コメントをもっと表示する (6 返事)

      [–]blahdenfreude 31ポイント32ポイント  (7子コメント)

      However, more than 90% of matters put before Congress are passed with 100% unanimous consent. And that includes 80% of non-trivial binding laws/rules -- ie, not related to naming a post office or some such.

      [–]theatanamonster 61ポイント62ポイント  (4子コメント)

      That's only because the agreeable stuff actually gets put up for a vote. Most of the controversial stuff gets killed in committee so politicians can minimize public records of difficult votes to increase likelihood of re-election.

      [–]weezer3989 31ポイント32ポイント  (1子コメント)

      Which is one reason Ryan's promise to give reps a freer reign is biting him in the ass. It's allowing votes on things that Boehner would never have let get to the floor and will probably impact a few reelection campaigns this fall.

      [–]theatanamonster 20ポイント21ポイント  (0子コメント)

      Yep. I guess he gets some credit for transparency. Challengers will have an easier time since you can get elected with some nice sounding promises and good marketing. Harder to nail down when you don't have too many controversial votes, or any, on record.

      コメントをもっと表示する (2 返事)

        コメントをもっと表示する (2 返事)

          [–]cuteman 12ポイント13ポイント  (10子コメント)

          Not just the presidency. The media is complicit as it gives politicians this weird notion that 90% of the people agree with 90% of their ideas when in reality it's closer to 50% of people agree with around 70% of their ideas. And then no accountability.

          Obama was elected by 30% of the eligible electorate. It's not even 50%.

          [–]JumpCrissCross 15ポイント16ポイント  (4子コメント)

          To be fair, non-voters implicitly vote for whoever the majority of voters vote for. Not voting, functionally, equals voting for and putting trust in the electoral system.

          [–]theatanamonster 4ポイント5ポイント  (3子コメント)

          Yeah, I was being as generous as possible with my numbers to avoid someone poking.

          コメントをもっと表示する (1 返事)

            [–]Javaed 9ポイント10ポイント  (5子コメント)

            Only 54.9% of those who could vote did in 2012. President Obama had 51.1% of the vote in that election. That means that only 28.05% of the population actively supported him (assuming we're using votes as a measure of support).

            Edit: Numbers pulled from a wiki article on American voting and by quickly looking up news articles on the final counts from 2012. Patsastus had more accurate statistics, so here's the updated numbers:

            61.8% of eligible voters voted. President Obama won by 51.1%. So, 31.5% of voters actively supported the election of the current US President.

            コメントをもっと表示する (10 返事)

              [–]spamjavelin 326ポイント327ポイント  (120子コメント)

              Heh. You should see the UK government. The current party was elected with about 30% of the popular vote, but still have the nerve to claim "a clear mandate to govern." Pricks.

              [–]Agent_Paste 111ポイント112ポイント  (50子コメント)

              They all do. I believe you're forgetting the time when Labour went all out pissing contest when they won with 40%

              [–]wOlfLisK 55ポイント56ポイント  (38子コメント)

              Which just proves that we need reforms. At the very least some kind of AV/ STV and preferably a complete restructuring of the government to give Southern England, Northern England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland equal power.

              [–]Anal_Superstar 18ポイント19ポイント  (25子コメント)

              Except there was a referendum on AV in the UK, and it was rejected.

              [–]summitorother 55ポイント56ポイント  (15子コメント)

              That's because the electorate didn't want babies and soldiers to die.

              [–]Larakine 21ポイント22ポイント  (2子コメント)

              Good lawd, I remember these. It's as nauseating now as it was then.

              [–]Eladriol 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

              It's the time I gave up giving a shit about things, a rude awakening about the reality of political campaigning

              [–]alkizmo 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

              Makes wonder if private advertising should be allowed for any political campaign.

              [–]Ysbreker 13ポイント14ポイント  (4子コメント)

              Those might just be the most stupid ads I've ever seen.

              [–]jimthewanderer [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

              Have you seen the most recent party political broadcast for the Leave campaign?

              It plays like a Monty Python sketch satirising the leave campaign.

              コメントをもっと表示する (1 返事)

                [–]mixotec 40ポイント41ポイント  (0子コメント)

                She needs a maternity ward, not a £205 billion nuclear deterrent

                [–]Dukajarim 5ポイント6ポイント  (1子コメント)

                Damn, those are horrible. It's disgusting how effective it is to tack on "the troops" and "children" onto any cause, especially one as totally unrelated as this.

                [–]nidrach 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

                It's like satire about horrible advertisements.

                [–]RobertoBolano 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

                God, how utterly cynical - and what a way to diminish the UK. Like it or not, the UK annual budget is well over at trillion USD. I think they can afford it.

                [–]Flywolfpack 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

                Oh man 250 million? That's a loooooot of money!

                コメントをもっと表示する (2 返事)

                  [–]SuperSecretBackupAcc 54ポイント55ポイント  (3子コメント)

                  Well, the reasons for the rejection weren't that we didn't want AV per se.

                  (1) The Lib Dems suggested it and at that point the Lib Dems were so unpopular that they could have suggested anything and the response would have been, "Go fuck yourselves.".

                  (2) Also, AV seems worse than Proportional Representation. For some people who think themselves savvy, if they'd accepted AV then they'd never get PR.

                  (3) A lot of people didn't really get the concept.

                  (4) There was a suggestion that changing from a first past the post system meant that we'd be more likely to get coalitions (and at that point we really didn't like the coalition that we had, so, another? No thanks).

                  So, yes. It was just a very bad time for an AV referendum (which was not a coincidence at all).

                  コメントをもっと表示する (5 返事)

                    コメントをもっと表示する (12 返事)

                      [–]naemtaken 13ポイント14ポイント  (10子コメント)

                      In 2001? I doubt the majority of redditors remember that long ago.

                      [–]rawling 12ポイント13ポイント  (8子コメント)

                      about 30%

                      36.9%

                      The last single-party government got 35.2%. At the previous election, the same party tried to form a government with 29%.

                      [–]melonator1145 15ポイント16ポイント  (23子コメント)

                      Unfortunately that is what happens when you have more than 2 political parties. They still had more votes than any of the other parties.

                      [–]dont_think_so_ 40ポイント41ポイント  (15子コメント)

                      No, that's what happens when you have a first-past-the-post electoral system. With proportional representation that would not happen.

                      [–]neohylanmay 12ポイント13ポイント  (0子コメント)

                      Unfortunately that is what happens when you have more than 2 political parties.

                      And FPTP.

                      コメントをもっと表示する (6 返事)

                        コメントをもっと表示する (36 返事)

                          [–]GWJYonder 9ポイント10ポイント  (45子コメント)

                          At least the US has the slim excuse that a .6% popular vote margin is likely to become a much larger and more impressive sounding electoral vote victory, even if that doesn't actually mean anything about the will of the people.

                          [–]bam2_89 7ポイント8ポイント  (2子コメント)

                          The US is actually kind of unique in that it acknowledges the losing side in the future. The idea of "bipartisan support" for a bill is meaningless in the UK.

                          [–]Cosmic_Colin [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

                          How do you figure that? The losing side in the UK becomes the opposition and can defeat the government in the house of commons. They can also support things they agree with, which happens quite often.

                          コメントをもっと表示する (63 返事)

                            [–]brak10 51ポイント52ポイント  (35子コメント)

                            Exactly. And it's further misleading when you consider that the president in Austria is largely a ceremonial and symbolic position that doesn't make laws.

                            Since just about half of the country voted for a far-right figurehead, that is symbolic in itself. It definitely tells which way the wind is blowing.

                            [–]Zyhmet 21ポイント22ポイント  (9子コメント)

                            hehe.. ceremonial?

                            Our president can cast a crisis onto our land with his power in less than a week....

                            He is much more powerful than the german president for example.

                            [–]DonRobo 9ポイント10ポイント  (6子コメント)

                            I'm Austrian and I didn't know that. How would he go about doing that?

                            [–]Galimathias [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

                            He has the power to dismiss the current government and appoint a new, interimistic chancellor. This chancellor can the go on to propose members of his cabinet which the president has to approve of. The president alone cannot dissolve the parliament but I think the new government could (not sure about that).

                            But Zyhmet is right, he is far more powerful than the german president. In Germany they stripped the president's position of this power after the war, a step that Austria never got around to.

                            [–]AcornBiter 5ポイント6ポイント  (2子コメント)

                            I believe he can dissolve parliament and have the people vote again.

                            コメントをもっと表示する (2 返事)

                              コメントをもっと表示する (25 返事)

                                [–]stack_overpriced 9ポイント10ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                From what I gather, it was also only possible because the losing parties basically cast their votes at Van der Bellen. In the parliamentary elections, that's not possible, meaning that FPO is likely to win.
                                or something.

                                [–]v1ech [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

                                I generally agree with your argumentation here.
                                But in perspective of running into having a far-right president, who built his campaign on propagating anxiety and insecurity against foreign people, foreign religions and the EU in general, AND based on the fact, that there was only a very tiny chance for van der Bellen to catch up after the first election (he is not very popular in Austria. He only has sympathisants among the far-left and left wing), you can probably speak of "rejection" in this special context.
                                I don`t know whether youre Austrian, but the last few weeks have been a huge call for starting to unite, whether you like vdB or not, just to prevent a far-right President.

                                What added the salt to the discussion for me personally is, that it was Hofers intention to keep this not an election for his person, but an election for the entire FPÖ party.
                                This party has united with the AfD in germany and the Franc National recently, so their goals clearly not about quitting Austrian governmental network-system. Their goal is to destroy the EU, to be an independent, christian nation of Austrian people and Austrian values with no tolerance for cosmopolitical development.
                                I also do not like vdB but I voted for him, as I do not support the believs of FPÖ.
                                I hate fanning fears, I completely decline fueling anxieties, no matter whether it is about politics or drugs/vaccination/food/smoking or whatever. It is just terribly wrong to do that.

                                [–]Bhima [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                                I'm an American and I've lived in Austria for quite some time. I agree with nearly everything you've said.

                                My fundamental point is that even with all the talk we've had in past few weeks about voting for VdB specifically to prevent Hofer and the FPÖ from coming into power, the shift in the vote tally was really tiny and the final vote count was really really close. That's not the sort of decisive mandate that the original title tried to suggest. I need to point out that between the time OP submitted this and I read it, the BBC changed the title and edited the story to more accurately reflect the facts of the election.

                                Anyway, I really, really, really hope that in the aftermath of this election the various guilty parties get their act together and resolve at least some of challenges that we're facing instead of just doing nothing and hoping they just magically resolve themselves on their own because the whole second half of your comment is both insightful and absolutely correct... and none of us really want to live in the sort of societies that come out of those politics.

                                [–]angry_burmese 4ポイント5ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                But that was the title that the BBC gave.

                                [–]Jindor 18ポイント19ポイント  (2子コメント)

                                actually if you check FB the original title was OPs title and van der bellen elected president

                                [–]_cult_ 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                we just got a new chancellor as well, as far as I am concerned he is more competent than his predecessor. If he manages to find a productive way of working together with the other government-party they might push back the FP back to the third place

                                [–]YpsilonYpsilon 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                Besides, it implies that voters were voting against the FPO and not for the green candidate even though they have no sources to support that.

                                コメントをもっと表示する (36 返事)

                                  [–]relee1865 93ポイント94ポイント  (99子コメント)

                                  Can any Austrian explain the recount process? 0.4% is a razor thin margin, is there a chance he will contest the results?

                                  [–]b0nz1 76ポイント77ポイント  (28子コメント)

                                  We have a very safe counting system- the OSZE has sent no election observers because it thinks that it is water proof. Basically every ballot box is opened by representatives of all parties and the counting is public. There is no room for a counterfeit of 30.000 votes.

                                  Nevertheless the loser of the elections can despite the counting within 8 days (starting on June 1st) but it must be founded on good arguments.

                                  [–]seewolfmdk 112ポイント113ポイント  (4子コメント)

                                  He already admitted defeat.

                                  [–]st0pmakings3ns3 11ポイント12ポイント  (3子コメント)

                                  While your statement is true, the party's spokesperson Kickl said, they would have a close look at the votes and are yet to decide whether or not they will challenge the result. Given the fact that the party's leader called manipulation even before the final results were out, i would be less than surprised if they didn't acknowledge the outcome.

                                  Edit: i am fully aware that challenging the result would be futile nonsense. That is exactly why i think it's something the FPÖ would do. They are conspirative, sore losers and overall incompetent people.

                                  [–]Arkeros 41ポイント42ポイント  (24子コメント)

                                  The FPÖ just stated that they will check if there were any substantial errors with the mail votes (where the green candidate has always been strong). They will not fight the count just for the sake of fighting it.

                                  コメントをもっと表示する (40 返事)

                                    [–]sweetor 120ポイント121ポイント  (58子コメント)

                                    Is this the first Green Party candidate to gain power in Europe?

                                    [–]purpleslug 182ポイント183ポイント  (17子コメント)

                                    Greens have got into government all across Europe. This is the first non-Social Democrat or People's Party President though

                                    [–]FishCkae 23ポイント24ポイント  (11子コメント)

                                    Been a decent few ALDE presidents, Cyprus had a communist leader (European left) and a handful of independents. Not sure if it's the first Green president - I think the Baltics may have elected one?

                                    コメントをもっと表示する (5 返事)

                                      [–]starsca 103ポイント104ポイント  (22子コメント)

                                      The Greens didn;t gain power with this results. The Austrian president in practice is mostly a ceremonial position. Actual power lies with the Chancellor and National Council (parliament). But I think this guy is the first Green party head of state.

                                      [–]xNicolex[🍰] 52ポイント53ポイント  (3子コメント)

                                      Whilst true, it is mostly ceremonial, it can help bring momentum into the general election which I believe is in 2018 for Austria.

                                      [–]aguycalledluke 27ポイント28ポイント  (15子コメント)

                                      Well yes and no. The Austrian president is highest Ranking Commander of the Bundesheer and has extensive powers through the Constitution (ie disbanding the government).

                                      [–]starsca 22ポイント23ポイント  (14子コメント)

                                      same thing is true for the Queen in the UK. When was the last either the Queen or the Austrian president disbanded a government?

                                      [–]DEATHMACHINELOL 30ポイント31ポイント  (4子コメント)

                                      It never happened in Austria. Hofer said he would disband the government if they "don't work properly". However, most people think he would've disbanded it as soon as possible, as the FPÖ tops polls right now.

                                      [–]ScanianMoose 13ポイント14ポイント  (2子コメント)

                                      That's the thing - given that the current Austrian government is weak (see also Chancellor Faymann's recent resignation) and the discontent among the population is high, the FPÖ (Hofer's party) would have a lot to gain from an early election. Further, this power is an excellent "blackmailing" tool - comply with my wishes, or I will disband you.

                                      [–]exikon 4ポイント5ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                      Can lead to a lot of trouble. See Germany in the 1920s. So many disbanded governments.

                                      [–]Isord 17ポイント18ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                      Well technically the Queen did it last year, and in fact does so every general election in the UK. I better question is probably when was the last time parliament was dissolved by the Queen without a general election pending or a vote of no confidence in the PM.

                                      [–]jyper 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                      A couple of decades back the Australian Governor General (representative of the queen) decided to dissolve parliament without a vote of no confidence. I think some people may have tried to appeal to the Queen who said it was up to the Governor General.

                                      [–]just_a_little_boy 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                      Well the right wing candidate openly said he will try to utilize his position if he gains it, so yeah

                                      コメントをもっと表示する (3 返事)

                                        コメントをもっと表示する (2 返事)

                                          [–]DrOrgasm 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                          We had a green / center right coalition in Ireland for a few years. The greens got the shitty end of the stick on that one because the center right party had been in power for two consecutive cycles and the economy crashed shortly after getting elected again. They did some good things in their short time though, had the prevailing circumstances been better at the time they might be doing better now.

                                          コメントをもっと表示する (16 返事)

                                            [–]Steven5454 577ポイント578ポイント  (179子コメント)

                                            Let's hope Hofer doesn't move to Germany and start a political movement there.

                                            [–]telios87 483ポイント484ポイント  (6子コメント)

                                            Just let him into art school.

                                            [–]Aliencow 57ポイント58ポイント  (70子コメント)

                                            Well, AfD supports him. So, Anschluss... anyone?

                                            [–]extremelycynical 45ポイント46ポイント  (69子コメント)

                                            Well, that's literally what Hofer personally wants.

                                            He is part of a right wing extremist group that calls the existence of the Austrian nation "historical fiction".

                                            [–]OpenPacket 6ポイント7ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                            He has a point. The only reason it didn't happen in the 19th century was because of the Austrian Empire. The only reason it hasn't happened post-ww2 was because it only happened before with the nazis.

                                            [–]janboheme 15ポイント16ポイント  (3子コメント)

                                            He's not very subtle about it either.

                                            [–]woah_m8 8ポイント9ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                            That's btw a suit from a German Verbindung which is a fraternity, most specifically a Burschenschaft.

                                            コメントをもっと表示する (1 返事)

                                              [–]Cruiseway 10ポイント11ポイント  (10子コメント)

                                              What does he mean by historical fiction? Every region of Germany had fairly unique cultures until Bismark came in and made the model German. Does he not recognise that austrians have there own culture.

                                              [–]I_want_a_TARDIS 28ポイント29ポイント  (8子コメント)

                                              You've kind of given the answer in your own post already. Before Germany became united as one nation state, what is now Austria and back then was merely one part of the Habsburg empire, was considered just as German as for example the Kingdom of Prussia, the Kingdom of Bavaria, or the Grand Duchy of Baden.

                                              コメントをもっと表示する (1 返事)

                                                コメントをもっと表示する (52 返事)

                                                  [–]ReginaldLADOO 30ポイント31ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                  He ought to take up painting instead.

                                                  [–]Synclaire94 25ポイント26ポイント  (10子コメント)

                                                  Quick, anyone got membership to an art school?

                                                  [–]tridi_animeitor 105ポイント106ポイント  (7子コメント)

                                                  That was an actual joke from der Postillon, the german version of the Onion. http://www.der-postillon.com/2016/04/akademie-der-bildenden-kunste-wien.html

                                                  Basically says, "Vienna's Art Academy offers a place to Norbert Hofer"

                                                  [–]Dr-K-G 42ポイント43ポイント  (3子コメント)

                                                  In der Vergangenheit habe die Hochschule manchem vielversprechenden Feingeist nicht immer seine verdiente Chance gegeben und ihn so unnötig in die Politik getrieben. "Das soll sich nie mehr wiederholen", so Blimlinger.

                                                  lol

                                                  [–]Allacazzip 34ポイント35ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                                  haha yeah same

                                                  [–]nextreg 29ポイント30ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                  "In the past the University denied some hopefull candidates the entrance to their program and made them flee into politics, this shouldnt happen again."

                                                  Just a rough translation, can't be bothered to think atm.

                                                  [–]Jarrz 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                  Wachsmalkreidenkurs hehe

                                                  コメントをもっと表示する (3 返事)

                                                    [–]ImperialRedditer 8ポイント9ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                                    Someone find a beer house to have a putsch

                                                    コメントをもっと表示する (89 返事)

                                                      [–]wintremute 30ポイント31ポイント  (2子コメント)

                                                      0.3% ain't exactly a popular mandate.

                                                      [–]CleanAndRebuild 58ポイント59ポイント  (38子コメント)

                                                      Out of curiousity what does a poitician have to do to earn the title "far left?"

                                                      [–]Jobnm 47ポイント48ポイント  (7子コメント)

                                                      Being a communist. In Denmark our communist/farleft party is the 4th biggest.

                                                      [–]vodkaflavorednoodles 36ポイント37ポイント  (11子コメント)

                                                      Advocate unconditional basic income, much harsher regulation of banking, completely stopping arms exports, decriminalizing (almost) all drugs. This list is by no means complete, but those would be examples of far left positions in a Northern/Central European context. It might be a little weird to Americans, as the European political spectrum is far more on the left as a whole in most countries. The Democrats (under Hillary Clinton) would be the Conservatives, while Bernie Sanders would be a pretty normal middle-to-left candidate. The Republicans would be the far-right regarding their social standpoints and there is not really any party who would share their economical views.

                                                      [–]Usedpresident [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

                                                      This is a completely incorrect and incredibly America-centric view of European politics.

                                                      Just for starters, there are absolutely far-left European parties like Syriza that want nothing to do with basic income. In many countries, the far-left parties are literal communist parties. They're far more concerned about nationalization of industries, worker unionization, and expansionary monetary policy than any of the issues you've listed, and some of them go even beyond that and explicitly advocate for a Marxist-Leninist platform.

                                                      Besides, the closest analogue to Bernie Sanders in European politics is Jeremy Corbin, who currently has a disastrous leadership of the UK Labour Party. Hillary Clinton is not too far off from Blair's New Labour politicians, and her policies on financial regulation alone would be entirely antithetical to the Conservatives' party platform.

                                                      コメントをもっと表示する (7 返事)

                                                        コメントをもっと表示する (18 返事)

                                                          [–]DENelson83 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                          Wow… That's closer than the Quebec sovereignty vote in 1995.

                                                          [–]ImperiumRojava 76ポイント77ポイント  (32子コメント)

                                                          This isn't anywhere near the end for the FPO, or other similar parties. They've come from nowhere to becoming some of the most relevant parties in European politics. People who support (not myself FYI) them shouldn't despair, at this rate one of the parties will win government or other elections soon.

                                                          [–]ElScreecho 19ポイント20ポイント  (10子コメント)

                                                          Isn't Austria one of the more conservative countries in the EU though?

                                                          [–]DEATHMACHINELOL 43ポイント44ポイント  (7子コメント)

                                                          As an Austrian I can confirm, especially people in the rural areas are very conservative. A lot of conservatives also voted for Van der Bellen, however, as they did not want Hofer to win.

                                                          [–]Benutzer0815 4ポイント5ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                                          yes, but with the conservatives being more on the right side of the (social) political spectrum

                                                          [–]kaliforniamike 28ポイント29ポイント  (8子コメント)

                                                          Exactly. They came within 4% of a presidential victory. And it's not like the immigration situation there is going to solve itself overnight.

                                                          [–]ChronoX5 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                          I completely agree. This is a big win for both parties and should have an impact on the 2018 elections.

                                                          [–]FishCkae 18ポイント19ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                                          Come from nowhere? They've been around forever!

                                                          コメントをもっと表示する (9 返事)

                                                            [–]rangorn 4ポイント5ポイント  (7子コメント)

                                                            So how far right is this guy anyway?

                                                            [–]Nathan_Thurm 15ポイント16ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                            What a ridiculous title my god

                                                            [–]parisinla 9ポイント10ポイント  (2子コメント)

                                                            by three tenths of a fucking percent? Jesus...

                                                            [–]biomed88 12ポイント13ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                            "People can be different and still treat each other respectfully." -Van der Bellen

                                                            If only that were the case here in the US. The hate has been building to a fever pitch on both sides so far this election cycle. I'm worried about what's going to happen in November, regardless of who wins.

                                                            [–]anotherdonald 74ポイント75ポイント  (66子コメント)

                                                            "Rejects": he almost made it. Now what? I have no doubt that the next time, one of them will make it. It's time to take these voters seriously, before that happens.

                                                            [–]bat_mayn 111ポイント112ポイント  (58子コメント)

                                                            take these voters seriously

                                                            Too late. People refer to them as actual Nazis for merely criticizing popular issues, or asking questions.

                                                            Next time you're going to get actual Nazis.

                                                            "Just let us do what we want, or you're a Nazi." Yeah, you're fucking done.

                                                            [–]Forkyou 14ポイント15ポイント  (9子コメント)

                                                            "Criticizing popular issues" isnt exactly what the FPÖ is doing. Or to say it is actually the only thing they are doing? They have no actual plans, they just ride the "fear of immigrants" wave all the way to the bank until they are in the government where they and everyone else realise they have no actual plans so they grab as much money as possible. Happend before but people forgot.

                                                            When asked in a debate what he would do different a member of FPÖ literally said that having ideas is the job of the government not the opposition he is just here to criticise.

                                                            Just yelling against immigrants and spreading false informations (and they do that a lot because they know a lot of their voters wont care to actually look into it 5 seconds) is no basis for gouverning.

                                                            I hate that they are called nazis because it always ends the discussion between people. There is way worse stuff going on in this party then having some nazis (though when a "wiederbetätigung"-scandal surfaces its always members of this party).

                                                            [–]bat_mayn 7ポイント8ポイント  (7子コメント)

                                                            Referring to being shut out for criticizing popular issues, I was referring to just regular people - the voters, normal citizens. Not party hardliners. The left has created this ridiculous trend where they push to shut down any criticism or debate about their pet issues, full stop. You're not allowed to talk about it - "You're with us or against us and you're a nazi".

                                                            Which leaves as the only recourse for people with concerns, to go towards more 'extremist' venues for their information - as these are literally the only places where it can be discussed openly. That's what makes the "far right" grow, they grow out of frustration and silence, not because these white people are 'inherently racist and nazi'.

                                                            You sit here and trivialize their concerns, living proof: "just yelling at immigrants", they're just stupid and ill-informed. You mean to suggest half of Austria is stupid and ill-informed, alright..

                                                            コメントをもっと表示する (1 返事)

                                                              コメントをもっと表示する (48 返事)

                                                                コメントをもっと表示する (7 返事)

                                                                  [–]Plappedudel 27ポイント28ポイント  (3子コメント)

                                                                  This is a good thing. I have a fair amount of political disagreements with Alexander van der Bellen, but he's not insane. Meanwhile his opponent actually believes in chemtrails. This has nothing to do with conservatism, it's just pure BS. And rational people who identify as right-wing should know better.

                                                                  [–]NotTheBomber 15ポイント16ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                  Meanwhile his opponent actually believes in chemtrails

                                                                  .... holy shit that's bad

                                                                  コメントをもっと表示する (2 返事)

                                                                    [–]Springheeledjack88 6ポイント7ポイント  (2子コメント)

                                                                    This just means that this is the last chance for things to be fixed. The right will definitely win the next time if things stay the same or get worse.

                                                                    [–]mighty_mighty_cat 8ポイント9ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                                                    Decades of calling natives "racists", "bigots", and "xenophobes" in their own land - is it any surprise people are angry?

                                                                    [–]LaurelQuade 103ポイント104ポイント  (33子コメント)

                                                                    And that's another reason why you should never do first-past-the-post. If it wasn't for the two-round system, the most extreme candidate would have won by a large margin - even if far from a majority, because most of the vote had been split among all the less extreme candidates.

                                                                    [–]Asparagus64 48ポイント49ポイント  (4子コメント)

                                                                    To play devil's advocate, had there not been a two round voting system people would have voted differently in the first round than they did. Don't get me wrong though, FPTP is awful.

                                                                    [–]JustJivin 5ポイント6ポイント  (11子コメント)

                                                                    Is there a good argument for not moving to STV or a similar process? Because I've yet to hear one.

                                                                    [–]aronedu 70ポイント71ポイント  (7子コメント)

                                                                    Most studies show the opposite actually.

                                                                    [–]IRSunny 50ポイント51ポイント  (5子コメント)

                                                                    Indeed. First past the post generally yields two moderate parties as you have coalitions of the Left & Center Left and Right & Center Right.

                                                                    However, that only can continue so long as there is balance between those two parties. If for some reason, usually some crisis or another, both those parties implode, then it becomes whichever party has the most vehement supporters which generally yields success of fringe parties (see: this election or Greece or Spain). If only one explodes, then you're probably going to see the surviving party move more towards the center of their coalition, i.e. leftwards if center left, or rightwards if center right as competing for the center is less crucial.

                                                                    [–]mormotomyia 6ポイント7ポイント  (2子コメント)

                                                                    But it also leaves the majority of people with no real option to vote, other than because they dislike one candidate even more.

                                                                    With a proportional system or even a dual system (including both ideas, like in Germany) you can have represent the will of the people much more nuanciated and thus fairer, as with two generalist candidates.

                                                                    コメントをもっと表示する (2 返事)

                                                                      コメントをもっと表示する (1 返事)

                                                                        [–]Fahsan3KBattery 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                        I mean this is First Past the Post, it's just two round first past the post.

                                                                        I actually think the two round system is the absolutely worst system for letting the far right do well. The far right tend to have a high floor and a low ceiling so getting into the second round is easy by cutting through a crowded field (see also JM le Pen in 2002). And then in the second round they are one of only two choices so they get to pick up the votes of loads of people who would never normally think to vote far right.

                                                                        Condorcet is the best system for situations like this, but AV would work fine too.

                                                                        コメントをもっと表示する (7 返事)

                                                                          [–]WeirdFishesinC 115ポイント116ポイント  (175子コメント)

                                                                          I would like an explanation or a definition of the term ''far right'' what does it actually mean? Because if it merely means someone who wants to end or substantially reduce immigration. There's nothing extreme about that.

                                                                          [–]Rehkit 67ポイント68ポイント  (24子コメント)

                                                                          Far right in Europe is associated with a certain rhetoric about immigration sure. Generally against Islam and its symbol as well.

                                                                          But they are also not to found of the EU, abortion, free trade, euro. They are also very 'tough on crime' (death penalty is sometimes argued.)

                                                                          Some parties are religious (like in Poland). Or resurgence of 1930 ideas (Jobbik/Croatia.)

                                                                          [–]EmAreDubs 3ポイント4ポイント  (9子コメント)

                                                                          So essentially European far right is American moderate to center-right?

                                                                          [–]ViktorViktorov 8ポイント9ポイント  (4子コメント)

                                                                          Jobbik is in Hungary.

                                                                          [–]Rehkit 13ポイント14ポイント  (3子コメント)

                                                                          I know, I was talking about two things. Jobbik. And the Oustachia (not sure of the spelling) movement in Croatia .

                                                                          But you're right I was not clear.

                                                                          [–]NuclearSpaceLegos 10ポイント11ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                                                          If only there were liberal parties in Europe that are also cautious of immigration and Islamism.

                                                                          コメントをもっと表示する (7 返事)

                                                                            [–]anotherdonald 68ポイント69ポイント  (25子コメント)

                                                                            The history of the FPÖ is pretty far to the right: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_Party_of_Austria. You could call their current points of view "right-wing populism" in line with the other European parties, but xenophobic, in particular anti-Islamic tendencies are strong.

                                                                            [–]Hungry_Lion 15ポイント16ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                            Immigration is a single issue dude. Political parties have entire platforms, and there's a correlation between being anti-immigration and holding other less than savory (from a progressive standpoint at least) views.

                                                                            [–]Valanarch 90ポイント91ポイント  (22子コメント)

                                                                            If I remember correctly (I'm not Austrian, so I don't know much about this), he also wants to massively cut social programs and his party was founded by ex-Nazis.

                                                                            [–]sativae 123ポイント124ポイント  (19子コメント)

                                                                            his party was founded right after the war when pretty much everyone was an ex-nazi.

                                                                            [–]throwaway486dx 16ポイント17ポイント  (2子コメント)

                                                                            They party is mostly remembered here in Slovenia with Jorg "the table remover" Haider. In southern Austria there is indigenous Slovene population and little Jorg had a penchant for going against constitutional court and removing bilingual road signs. That and whining about his parents being punished for joining nazis way before they came to power (where one could reasonably claim to do it for economical reasons) and being all-round asshole. I wonder if his party changed since his death, I haven't heard about any table removing incidents since but then I don't watch local news as closely anymore. Still crazy that FPO nearly won the elections.

                                                                            [–]sativae 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                            i doubt that the party has changed so much since his death. it was a close call here, i just hope that it will be a wake up call for the left leaning parties that something has to change, otherwise i fear what will happen at the general election in 2 years!!

                                                                            コメントをもっと表示する (1 返事)

                                                                              [–]Hungry_Lion 74ポイント75ポイント  (6子コメント)

                                                                              It was founded and led by former SS officers for several decades.

                                                                              [–]mynameisevan 109ポイント110ポイント  (2子コメント)

                                                                              Not everyone were officers in the SS, though.

                                                                              コメントをもっと表示する (6 返事)

                                                                                コメントをもっと表示する (2 返事)

                                                                                  [–]Belial91 46ポイント47ポイント  (53子コメント)

                                                                                  It generally means in EU terms:

                                                                                  Anti EU, anti abortion, anti homosexual marriage, climate change denying, anti gmo, anti migration etc.

                                                                                  While I support reducing immigration, most of his other opinions are backwards.

                                                                                  [–]nerfviking 16ポイント17ポイント  (40子コメント)

                                                                                  I don't know much about European politics in general (or Austrian politics specifically), but I'm curious if his immigration stance is what caused him to get basically half of the vote. Is immigration such an issue in Austria that moderates are willing to put up with that other stuff just to vote for someone who will take a stand on it?

                                                                                  [–]TheGerild 35ポイント36ポイント  (37子コメント)

                                                                                  Yes, nobody cared about anything else which is a bit infuriating.

                                                                                  [–]nerfviking 9ポイント10ポイント  (33子コメント)

                                                                                  So tell me something.

                                                                                  As I said before, I'm ignorant of European politics, and what I do know about it comes through the Reddit filter, which might make me worse than ignorant. But the picture I'm getting is that people in Europe (the press included) are kind of afraid to talk about crime being connected in any way to migrants (or other issues that directly relate to immigration), likely for fear of being labeled racist of misogynist or whatever. Of course, the American alt-right (which, judging by /r/all, is a huge upvoting bloc on reddit) absolutely eats this shit up, so any time there's even so much of an inkling that muslims are bad or immigration is bad, they're going to send that story right to the top.

                                                                                  Is unwillingness to discuss any connection between immigration and crime something that's actually a "thing" in Europe right now, or is it being blown out of proportion on Reddit?

                                                                                  [–]Belial91 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                                  Discussion about the connection between immigration and crime is a topic that is actually a topic that is very discussed at the moment at least in Austria. However there is not that much crime happening in Austria and just like in /r/worldnews if the perpetrator is a muslim the topic gets 100x the traction.

                                                                                  For example 2 days a go there was a shooting at a festival in Austria left 3 people dead and 11 others hurt. Commited by a neo-nazi.

                                                                                  I can only imagine the shitstorm that would be going down here if this was done by a Muslim.

                                                                                  On reddit I would say the issue is blown out of proportion but that doesn't mean that the refugee crisis is handled well or shouldn't be taken seriously.

                                                                                  In Austria at least i would say there is no unwillingness to discuss those things.

                                                                                  [–]MikeyTupper 21ポイント22ポイント  (11子コメント)

                                                                                  There's no unwillingness to discuss those things. It's just that the conclusions people come to about it are not worth discussing.

                                                                                  I can talk to you about sex crime rates among immigrants. We can talk about it and find solutions. But if you come up to me and say: "SEE? This guy and this guy here committed crimes and they're migrants. We need to, like, deport them all now. We are being invaded", that's not worth discussing.

                                                                                  [–]NuclearSpaceLegos 7ポイント8ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                                                                  I can talk to you about sex crime rates among immigrants. We can talk about it and find solutions. But if you come up to me and say: "SEE? This guy and this guy here committed crimes and they're migrants. We need to, like, deport them all now. We are being invaded", that's not worth discussing.

                                                                                  No, but what is worth discussing is "these migrants are comitting lots of crime and have a very backwards attitudes towards women, gays, etc. Perhaps we should reduce immigration and stop turning a blind eye towards the what the immigrants who are here are doing.".

                                                                                  コメントをもっと表示する (9 返事)

                                                                                    コメントをもっと表示する (20 返事)

                                                                                      コメントをもっと表示する (3 返事)

                                                                                        [–]Belial91 8ポイント9ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                                                                        It is one of the the main reason the FPÖ gets votes for and the topic they always bring up.

                                                                                        Immigration itself isn't that big of an issue in Austria at the moment but many people in Austria are very unhappy with the way the EU deals/dealt with the refugee crisis so that played right into the hands of the FPÖ. Austria is also rather conservative in the countryside(where Hofer was the strongest) so being anti EU, anti GMO etc. gives him a signifcant amount of votes there as well.

                                                                                        That being said Hofer despite being for the stuff I wrote in my earlier comment also has some positive views. For example he is against the TTIP which is a good thing at least in my opinion. He is also a good talker and does rather well in debates/interviews.

                                                                                        コメントをもっと表示する (12 返事)

                                                                                          コメントをもっと表示する (46 返事)

                                                                                            [–]VaalOrbThatShit 17ポイント18ポイント  (28子コメント)

                                                                                            The left would have destroyed any right-wing party just 10 years ago, now they barely scrape a win with just 0.6% more votes. The right has been on the rise throughout Europe for almost 10 years now, each year they're getting more votes than the previous. Look at the Netherlands, once considered to be one of the most tolerant and politically correct countries on Earth, they now have a far-right party leading every poll. The financial and migrant situation in Europe will not improve for many years, which means it's only a matter of time before the far-right parties finally reach the majority. Notice how in all of these countries the centre parties are all eliminated. People now vote either far-left or far-right. The shift to the right has already happened in Eastern Europe, and it could happen in the USA too if Donald Trump becomes president.

                                                                                            [–]Fenixx117 15ポイント16ポイント  (23子コメント)

                                                                                            Trump is more left wing then pretty much all other Republicans. He is quite centrist

                                                                                            [–]OpenPacket 7ポイント8ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                                                                            Literally the only reason Europe hates him is his stance on Muslims. They don't care that he's the most centrist Republican nominee since the second world war.

                                                                                            [–]reasonlogicNrealism 8ポイント9ポイント  (7子コメント)

                                                                                            In Europe, Trump is definitely seen as on the far right wing. The other republicans are pretty extreme, more than him indeed but I'm not sure that makes him a centrist.

                                                                                            [–]BigTinyWeiner 5ポイント6ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                                                                            Yeah but he says things I think are mean therefore he's just slightly to the left of Hitler!

                                                                                            コメントをもっと表示する (11 返事)

                                                                                              [–]ibmthink 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

                                                                                              Austria always was more right wing oriented since world war 2 then say, Germany. 10 years ago FPÖ got 11 % in the elections, + 4 % for BZÖ (another right-wing party, that does not have much traction anymore these days).

                                                                                              Of course, they have more today. Not surprising though, with the refugee crisis + EU crisis in general. Also, Austria is a country that has been governed by a big coalition of SPÖ + ÖVP for a long time, much longer then other countries. This is another factor that potentially helps extreme parties in gaining traction.

                                                                                              Countries like Germany are far away from a huge right-wing revolution, sure, AfD is at 13 % now in polls, but whether or not they can endure after the refugee crisis remains to be seen.

                                                                                              [–]ultimatebeing 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                                                                              whether or not they can endure after the refugee crisis remains to be seen.

                                                                                              The refugee crisis will go on for the next 20 years, as will the financial problems with the EU.

                                                                                              Welcome to reality of the mess Europe is in.

                                                                                              コメントをもっと表示する (1 返事)

                                                                                                [–]apparex1234 20ポイント21ポイント  (8子コメント)

                                                                                                It won't be close next time if this culture of political correctness and pandering continues. The far right will win.

                                                                                                [–]Gemdiver 10ポイント11ポイント  (4子コメント)

                                                                                                if austria "rejected" a far-right president then does that mean they embraced a far-left president?

                                                                                                The article does describe him as a "left-leaning liberal dedicated to the EU".

                                                                                                [–]PoliticalDissidents 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                                                Liberalism isn't far left, it's centrist (to sometimes center-left if we're talking about social liberalism), communism is far left. So no they didn't.

                                                                                                コメントをもっと表示する (3 返事)

                                                                                                  [–]GreendaleRep 13ポイント14ポイント  (5子コメント)

                                                                                                  I hope this election stands as a wake up call to many of my fellow liberals in Europe. If they continue to refuse to talk honestly about the real issues with the current migration crisis and continue to demonize any legitimate opposition/concerns to the current policies in place, the far right will very likely continue to rise.

                                                                                                  [–]--ManBearPig-- 11ポイント12ポイント  (4子コメント)

                                                                                                  The real answer is having an ethical foreign policy that doesn't destroy the Mid-East and create refugees to begin with. Migration and refugees are a result of non-stop meddling in the Mid-East since the 1940's. If you want to keep them there, do two things:

                                                                                                  1) STOP overthrowing/influencing/invading Mid-East governments.

                                                                                                  2) Maybe help them develop their economies. Doesn't mean send them billions in foreign aid but guiding them in the right direction will allow their people a chance at prosperity and keep them there.

                                                                                                  I'm Muslim but I hate to see refugees swarming the West. It's bad for the West and bad for the refugees but it's a result of two superpowers fighting a proxy war in Syria. Stop voting for warmongers and pay attention to what leaders are doing.

                                                                                                  [–]sylvicola [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

                                                                                                  Many of the "refugees" have nothing to do with the Middle East. Lots of them are economic migrants coming from random countries in Africa.

                                                                                                  コメントをもっと表示する (2 返事)

                                                                                                    [–]ImperialCDR 22ポイント23ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                                                                                    Not the first time a far right Austrian bloke has failed to succeed in Vienna...

                                                                                                    [–]manu_8487 91ポイント92ポイント  (80子コメント)

                                                                                                    That was close. Too close.

                                                                                                    [–]straydog1980 66ポイント67ポイント  (17子コメント)

                                                                                                    Yeah, after reading the article. The BBC makes it sound so much more optimistic than it is - he only won by postal votes. That's crazy. Although I can imagine that those outside of Austria would definitely not be anti-EU, that would be shooting themselves in the foot.

                                                                                                    [–]Arkeros 47ポイント48ポイント  (5子コメント)

                                                                                                    But consider that around 900k voting cards have been sent out. That's quite a significant part of the 6.4M eligible votes.

                                                                                                    [–]ALLCAPSWARLOCK 14ポイント15ポイント  (8子コメント)

                                                                                                    Voting cards are mostly sent out to people inside Austria who can't make it to the voting booth for some reason (old, injured, etc.).

                                                                                                    [–]meredyy 9ポイント10ポイント  (5子コメント)

                                                                                                    or people who just have to work that day or the night before/after

                                                                                                    コメントをもっと表示する (2 返事)

                                                                                                      コメントをもっと表示する (2 返事)

                                                                                                        [–]EasyChokin 25ポイント26ポイント  (53子コメント)

                                                                                                        Better double down on the policies fueling their support then, surely that's the solution.

                                                                                                        They're clearly so popular that many people would prefer fascism to them.

                                                                                                        コメントをもっと表示する (8 返事)

                                                                                                          [–]anoldoldman 27ポイント28ポイント  (14子コメント)

                                                                                                          Mr Hofer wore a cornflower in his lapel, which was a Nazi symbol in the 1930s.

                                                                                                          Oh cool...

                                                                                                          コメントをもっと表示する (843 返事)