CapitalismVSocialism 内の BBQCopter によるリンク [Socialists] Hong Kong is arguably the most free market, private-property loving city on the planet. So why is it also the most prosperous?

[–]The_Old_Gentleman 13ポイント14ポイント  (0子コメント)

Hong Kong is arguably the most free market, private-property loving city on the planet.

Hong Kong literally doesn't have private ownership of land: Everyone pays rent to the State in order to live there. It's the reason why Hong Kong has such low taxes. It also has universal healthcare, and 40% of the population living in government housing projects (which tend to be shit) and an authoritarian government.

Socialism says this city should also have very high rates of exploitation, poverty, inequality, crime, and overall misery.

As /u/10CPFC already argued, Hong Kong is notorious for high inequality and high poverty rate amidst prosperous GDP growth. 20% of it's people are fucking starving. Statistics from the World Food Programme are much more reliable than the anecdotal evidence being passed off as fact by the Reason Magazine (which is notorious for not being reasonable - the fact they use "average" income statistics rather than median income statistics in that article is a pretty obvious sign they are lying with statistics). Hong Kong certainly does have high rates of exploitation, poverty, inequality (Hong Kong literally has the highest income gap between the rich and the poor of any developed economy in the world) and overall misery.

And anyway, "socialism" doesn't argue that capitalism will make everywhere ultra-poor nor does it argue what economic policies capitalist countries should pursue (like, Hong Kong having free trade policies doesn't make it's mode of production "more capitalist" than the rest of China's - both are fully "capitalist" regions). Capitalism is a global economic system, and regions in the world that benefit from imperialism will have higher living standards than those suffering it, for example. The high HDI in the Nordic countries doesn't exist independently of the sweatshops in Vietnam, they form an inter-related whole.

So why is it also the most prosperous?

It clearly isn't. But anyways, it is obvious that countries which have a capitalist mode of production will be less bad if they pursue policies that better accommodate this mode of production as well as the specific material conditions of the country at hand.

The fact you people talk and talk about "freedom" but also praise a real-world Cyberpunk dystopia as well as fucking Singapore so much is hilarious.

CapitalismVSocialism 内の fitzdepl によるリンク [Any] 1 World government or many nation states?

[–]The_Old_Gentleman 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'd rather have no Governments or States of any sort.

But if i were forced to chose between these given-options for present day society, many independent nation-states seem less bad than 1 world government, as the latter would be a bureaucratic clusterfuck.

CapitalismVSocialism 内の fitzdepl によるリンク [Any] 1 World government or many nation states?

[–]The_Old_Gentleman 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

Having many 100's (or god-forbid 1000's) of independent nations will never be successful by today's standards and you only have to look at Africa or East Europe for proof.

Many conflicts in Africa and in Eastern Europe happened precisely because ethnic-cultural groups that had developed hostile interests (after decades or centuries of being exploited and turned against one another by an imperial power or another) were grouped under a single government entity, with little regard to their wishes or local needs, and these government structures collapsed into themselves as they failed to establish a uniform rule over these communities and they broke into all-out civil wars.

It seems the examples of Africa and East Europe directly contradict your notion that larger and larger central government is "successful". It was the imposition of such a government over these communities that led them to civil war and later to break off into smaller independent governments.

CapitalismVSocialism 内の JobDestroyer によるリンク Is money considered a personal possession?

[–]The_Old_Gentleman 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

It depends on how it's being used.

When money is being used to buy commodities (C - M - C) it is being used as a mean of exchange, or simply as a way to obtain a possession. It is functionally equivalent to a possession. When money is being used to obtain capital (M - C - M') it is used as a mean of accumulation, as a way of obtaining and accumulating capitalist private property.

A Socialist economy is ultimately "moneyless" insofar as it abolishes the use of money as a way to accumulate capital and exert a social pressure upon people to discipline and apportion labor. This is abolished not by "banning" the use of money to obtain capital but by abolishing the means by which money can be turned into capital - by abolishing private property and wage-labor in favor of social/common property and associated labor, simply put.

However, a money or a pseudo-money may still be used during a period of transition from Capitalism to Socialism, and even an established Socialist economy may or may not have a lot of different uses for for money-like tokens to be used as a pure mean of exchange in order to ration goods. These forms of pseudo-money would not be turned into private property insofar as the power to turn them into a means of accumulation is either abolished or in the process of being abolished, and could thus only be used to distribute products, i.e they could only exist as a possession.

badeconomics 内の itachinosaigoppeh によるリンク "Participatory Economics and the Next System" by Robin Hahnel

[–]The_Old_Gentleman 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I find the issue of an alternative way of allocating labor efficiently very interesting. On principle fulfilling this function without using price signals is at least compattible with Hayek's calculation argument, which only points to the requirement of a mechanism which would aggregate the fragmented and dispersed information of time and place and would be sensitive to constant modifications of that information, the market being one such mechanism.

I'm not particularly interested in studying Hayek's later work on the information problem (i mean, i agree with him on the importance of fragmented and dispersed information and even think he doesn't go far enough with that argument, but that's one of the reasons why i oppose capitalism), i find that Mises' original argument about the commensurability of scarce resources and rational choice is much more interesting and challenging. All too often anarchists seem to dismiss Mises and Hayek on the idea that "Our view is against central planning so their critique doesn't apply" but that's a very inaccurate way to look at this discussion.

I'm afraid I can't help with german sources, german being a language I'm meticulously avoiding,

That's rather surprising for the most Kantian of Kantians this side of the internet!

Thankfully i did manage to find some great secondary sources about Neurath's discussions with both Mises and Hayek (and i specially need to thank you for pointing out sci-hub to me!). As i expected, Neurath's reply to Mises first of all challenged his conception that resources can be made "commensurable" at all: The price mechanism and any other single unit of measure, Neurath argues, misses out on a lot of relevant information about human welfare that is necessarily multidimensional and incommensurable (though not incomparable) as well as disregard externalities and etc; and he criticized Mises' own conception of what "rationality" in economic calculation is by decrying it as an absolutist form of "pseudorationality". Moreover he does all of this starting from the same epistemological assumptions that Hayek himself starts with! Neurath's argument basically concludes that the capitalist economy pretends to have a reasonable yardstick for economic calculation but in fact it is "groping in the dark" as much as a socialist economy based on calculation in-kind would be according to Mises.

I had already made a pretty similar argument in my discussion with that buffoon but obviously Neurath made the critique much better than i did and a hundred years ago so i need to study these points with more care. I'm still working on how calculation in-kind could work out in practice (which is my main preoccupation at this point), and though most of Neurath's work on that is still in German, i found that Cornelius Castoriadis wrote some good stuff on that subject. His conception of "socialism" is different from mine (he was a bit of an orthodox Marxist on the issue) but he is discussing much of the stuff i'm having some trouble with in that chapter.

I assume you don't have any moral qualms about freed access to the products of civilization, being an anarchocommunist and all.

Oh, of course i don't. Though i am an anarchist and a communist i don't really call myself an "anarcho-communist" - as i'm a proponent of the view that "anarchy accepts no adjectives" and i don't use any label other than "anarchist" or "libertarian" simply. Technically i am a communist and a mutualist and an individualist so using any label other than "anarchist" would just lead to confusion.

After all, laws restricting one's external liberty for the sake of maintaining another's profitability sounds a lot like the priority of the good over the right, which is to say: wrong.

For obvious reasons i don't even consider "maintaining another's profitability" to be necessarily "good", so respecting IP is even worse than prioritizing the good over the right, it may as well be doing the bad over the right, and that's just ridiculous.

On a last side note, Otto Neurath is very quickly becoming one of my favorite socialists. And that's a rather large achievement for a 2nd Internationalist.

Socialism_101 内の Muffydabee によるリンク Why are so many people obsessed with socialism and communism even though many countries have tried it and it didnt work out and some are trying it and they are failing?

[–]The_Old_Gentleman 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

sweden is doing well? on my ass it is. sweden is being swarmed by "refugees" which are actaully the worst of the culture they come from

First of all, Sweden is not being "swarmed" by anyone. The population of Syrian refugees is less than half of one per cent of Sweden's population.

Second, prove that they are "the worse of the culture they come from". We are talking of thousands of men, women and children whom you know nothing about who lost everything to imperialist war and just want somewhere to live safely. You are dehumanizing an enormous number of people you know nothing about beyond tired media clichés.

you cant criticize the governments policies without without going to jail.

This happens everywhere, we socialists know better than anyone what it's like to be arrested for criticizing capitalism.

Now let's look beyond your baseless talking-points and look at how life in Sweden actually is like: In 2013 it had a GDP per capita of 60.430,22 USD against the US's 53.041,98 USD, and growing much faster too. It had a life expectancy of 81 years against the US's 78 and a human development index of 0.907! If you think this is "not doing so well" because they take in refugees, you need to study more.

Anyways, Sweden isn't even Socialist. It's a capitalist country which is rich enough to sustain a large welfare-state, and has a relatively socially-progressive culture. That is all.

and russia was communist, they just didnt call it that.

Russia has been understood by all communists since Marx to be a "stateless, classless, moneyless society where goods and services are distributed from each according to ability, to each according to need".

The USSR was not stateless (rather, it had a totalitarian State) nor moneyless (it had money and even traded commodities with the rest of the world) nor classless (the proletariat was ruled by the state bureaucracy) not did it distribute goods and services like that at all.

Socialism_101 内の Muffydabee によるリンク Why are so many people obsessed with socialism and communism even though many countries have tried it and it didnt work out and some are trying it and they are failing?

[–]The_Old_Gentleman 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

it wouldnt work out, why? because humans are selfish. in theory it is perfect, in practice it never works out.

You should know that you are making extremely common, but base, criticism that has been discussed a lot by everyone that is acquainted with this subject.

Let's take this in turns:

it wouldnt work out, why? because humans are selfish.

I mean, there are traditions within socialism that downright argue that "greed in it's fullest sense is the only possible basis for a communist society".

"Humans are selfish" is a meaningless truism. "Human nature" is extremely modified by the social relationships that people engage in everyday, and we know from anthropology and sociology that humans have engaged in an enormous amount of different economic relationships. For example: Through out most of human history the dominant economic relationship among humans was the "gift economy", in which people give and receive to each other with no explicit agreement for compensation. From your argument it would seem that this type of economy would be literally impossible, yet we've even had enormous large-scale societies (such as the Inca Empire) that were built off of this type of exchange.

The thing is that when social relationships are organized in this way, it is in everyone's self-interest to engage with them. By gifting a lot, you make sure that you also will be able to receive. By aiding others in the mutual-aid network, you know you will be aided as well.

in theory it is perfect, in practice it never works out.

There's no such thing as "perfect in theory, failed in practice". If something failed in practice, there must have been something wrong with the theory or with it's implementation. This argument is an incoherent cliché that is trotted out in order to uncritically dismiss the very idea that any non-capitalist social organization is possible.

I would like you to cite any "socialist theory" if you know any, and explain how it "failed in practice". Of course, hardly anyone who makes this argument actually can. Karl Marx himself never wrote much about what "socialism" would look like (being focused on criticizing capitalism and pointing to what it develops itself towards), understanding as a historical mode of production that is yet to be developed. Socialism is not a model or theory that is "implemented" or a set of policy proposals, it is what happens when capitalism can't work anymore and the working class obtains the power to rebuild the world according to their interests.

Socialism_101 内の Muffydabee によるリンク Why are so many people obsessed with socialism and communism even though many countries have tried it and it didnt work out and some are trying it and they are failing?

[–]The_Old_Gentleman 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

and communism, a political theory derived from Karl Marx, advocating class war and leading to a society in which all property is publicly owned and each person works and is paid according to their abilities and needs.

First, Karl Marx did not "advocate" class war, he argued it was an objective process happening in society, personally picked a side in it and pointed theoretical ramifications of what changes in society would be carried out if this side "won"; but he did not "advocate" class struggle as if it was something to be "created" or "implemented".

it didn't work out. russia was communist,

Russia did go through a social revolution in 1917 which had large participation from communists, but the story is much more nuanced than that, and Russia never even claimed to be "communist". For example, many socialists from within the numerous Left-Oppositions inside and outside of Russia argued that the country completely failed to properly create socialist institutions: Left-Socialist Revolutionaries, Left-communists and Anarchists all argued as early as 1917 that the country suffered a counter-revolution and maintained a State-managed version of capitalist institutions. Within the Bolshevik Party itself, the Trotskyist and other factions argued the country suffered bureaucratic degeneration into a dictatorship due to it's international isolation.

china was communist.

China was/is ruled by a self-proclaimed "Communist Party" but never even claimed to be "Communist" (Mao argued that the transition to "Communism" would take centuries), and suffered more or less the same critiques from the aforementioned dissident Socialists as the USSR did. And though Mao's policies were terrible and responsible for much human suffering, China also had a long history of massive famines and suffering from imperialist plundering long before Mao came to power, you have to understand it's failures within that context.

sweden is socialist and they aren't doing so well.

Sweden is not even remotely socialist in any sense (even from your given definition, Sweden does not have "publicly owned property"), it's a capitalist country with a large welfare-state which also happens to generally follow the neoliberal Washington consensus. It's also doing rather well for a capitalist country.

CapitalismVSocialism 内の subsidiarity によるリンク What public figure best represents your views?

[–]The_Old_Gentleman 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Sssssssh don't bring logic to my head canon

I mean, I know how to use computers, and my understanding is Wolfi doesn't

Wait but then who maintains that google sites thingy that houses a bunch of their writing

CapitalismVSocialism 内の subsidiarity によるリンク What public figure best represents your views?

[–]The_Old_Gentleman 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

(Heck, I even got someone suspect I might actually be Wolfi, once, before.)

You can increase that count to "twice" because i myself already entertained the idea of "How cool it would be if deathpigeon was actually Wolfi" a few times

Anarchism 内の Voltairinede によるリンク Cop Car set on fire with Cops in it in Paris yesterday

[–]The_Old_Gentleman 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

If you want an anarchist society you need a majority of anarchists.

Revolutions develop themselves on a semi-spontaneous basis when historical conditions are right. For an anarchist society to come about you don't need to "convert" every single individual to an "anarchist" position, what you need is for the masses of people to be fed up with the conditions of their daily lives and reject authority when they rebuild things in their own terms; reading Kropotkin and personally identifying with the label "anarchist" certainly helps with that but it's not a necessary prerequisite. The conditions that give birth to the real anti-capitalist movement are inherent to capitalism itself, so long as there is capital and authority there will be resistance against them.

"Anarchism" is thus not some particular ideological line that everyone needs to specifically study, it is a particular analysis of a real movement against capitalism and a particular tradition within it. This movement does not need "anarchism" to exist, but anarchism aids the existence of this movement. The function of the "anarchist" in this movement is not to seek to "convert" people until there are enough adherents for a revolution, but it is to keep theory and knowledge of revolutionary history alive, produce agit-prop, build links of mutual-aid and mutual-protection between the anti-capitalist struggles that pop up and engage in forms of direct action that can improve the lives of people in the here and now - those actions help empower the working class and strengthen the real movement by bringing it in an anti-authoritarian direction.

socialism 内の hau5keeping によるリンク Pope condemns "bloodsuckers" who exploit poor workers for profit

[–]The_Old_Gentleman 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

Catholics are pretty good people in general. The average Catholic i know is much, much more progressive than the official Church stance is on the vast majority of issues, and if the Church seeks to adapt to the 21st century to remain relevant it will first of all need to catch up to the level of their own followers. I was baptized and raised a Catholic myself, too, and the Church considers me a "Catholic" for all eternity for that.

However, we as socialist can't lose sight of the fact that the Catholic Church is not some sort of "progressive" institution (and doesn't even claim or aim to be one at all) and is fundamentally opposed to socialism.

socialism 内の hau5keeping によるリンク Pope condemns "bloodsuckers" who exploit poor workers for profit

[–]The_Old_Gentleman 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

The Pope actually doesn't have power over any of those things.

The Pope can't single-handedly overturn Church teaching on any of these things, correct, but those are the issues where his opinion matters the most and those are issues where he won't change his mind at all.

He talks very strongly about that quite often.

I admit having been uncharitable to the Pope on this issue.

Yeah, the Church itself is very rich, but for the most part the individuals within in the Church are not very rich. In the US at least, Catholic priests have the lowest average pay out of any major religion, and I don't think that even counts the many priests who have taken a vow of poverty and are paid nothing, have no savings, and keep almost no personal possessions.

As always in every capitalist institution, capital enriches itself at the expense of the actual human individual it exploits.

To be fair, the Catholic Church despite being socially conservative as hell does do a lot of great charity work and the like. However, as we all know, socialism is not charity. It makes sense to respect the particularly good things the Catholic Church does in their own terms (while still critically understanding it as a powerful institution existing under a particular class society), but it makes no sense to praise the Catholic Church as a socialist or to believe that Francis represents some new sort of socialist consciousness inside the Church.

socialism 内の kijo98 によるリンク What is an unpopular opinion you, as a socialist, hold?

[–]The_Old_Gentleman 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'd still have a bad feeling not voting for Sanders if I was America, but your comment definitely raises points I hadn't considered.

The problem i see isn't so much with the vote - i mean, an individual going up to vote is such a small act it hardly matters. Whether you vote for Sanders or cast a joke vote or refuse to vote at all doesn't change anything. It is the act of actively dedicating time and resources to campaigning for elections, building political parties and passing a pro-sodcem message to the workers which is to me ultimately counter-productive.

While i see it that the socialist stance on elections should be of not participating in them or in parliament, socialists still should not downright ignore elections and politics at all. If i was in America, i would personally be:

  • Joining in the efforts to disrupt Trump rallies, and make Trump supporters know that they are not a "silent majority" and that their reactionary politics are not welcome anywhere.

  • Joining in the efforts to disrupt Hillary and Bernie rallies by asking hard questions and pointing out their hypocrisies (like BLM has done).

  • Distributing zines and pamphlets with anti-capitalist and anti-establishment/government messages to Sanders supporters and striking workers. I'm personally a fan of To Change Everything[1] and Abolish Restaurants[2].

  • Trying to build mutual-aid and mutual-protection associations and networks for immigrants, black people, homeless people and marginalized communities in general. Make sure such associations are firmly independent of State and of political parties, and are maintained by and for the marginalized communities they represent. The Black Panther's Party is an excellent example of how this sort of stuff can be done effectively.

Anarchy101 内の NSAgentSteve によるリンク I don't like the dmv, insurance, police, or the courts.

[–]The_Old_Gentleman 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

One of is misunderstanding the anarchist ways. I thought the point was to have true freedom and not to restrict other humans to this earth.

The point is to give everyone full freedom to build their lives in their own terms and have free access to the socially-owned means of production, but this still implies that a general "balance" of individual interests would be sought.

For example, everyone agrees that we need to build a public system that gives everyone access to water. However, if someone decided they wanted to take all the water for themselves for no apparent reason, the other people who also have access to it would go to that person and say "Hey, calm down there, you're leaving us all with out water". Those people would then talk it out and reach an agreement on what to do - maybe the person who is taking too much water does need a lot of it (maybe they're building a huge garden or something), though they could take the water they need for those ends with out taking the water other people need too, reaching a mutual balance of interests. The need to balance individual interests while maximizing free access and with no resort to an authority that can suppress conflict, establish universal rules or determine "winners" and "losers" must ultimately leads to a mutual balance of interests, or a society of generalized reciprocity.

Now, for transport. We all agree that people need to have free access to the streets and means of transportation, and we all hate pointless bureaucracies like the DMV. But at the same time we also can all agree that someone who has no fucking clue how to drive shouldn't be driving because that can harm themselves and other people. We could at first try to just trust people to only take a car once they know how to drive and see if they can self-regulate, but suppose that this fails, maybe the people in charge of making cars would end up figuring it is a good idea to ask people who want a car to prove they can drive before deciding if they will give a car or not.

This would not be like the DMV: Firstly, it would not be a rule imposed by an authority (the people who make cars would not have the power to determine who is or isn't "allowed" to drive a car, in principle everyone is) but an attempt to build a relationship of trust ("hey, we want to know if we can trust you before giving you this thing") which can be managed and changed by the relevant parties in whatever way they see fit to balance out their mutual interests. Second because it would not be a one-size-fits-all, permanent bureaucratic ritual that forces you into annoying lines on a regular basis, but as i stated, would be a a relationship self-determined by the relevant parties in whatever way they see fit using the relevant knowledge available to them.

My own perspective is that an anarchist society would be centered on mass transport - the bus, the metro, the railway; except actually good and offered for free this time - and things like bikes for "everyday" transportation, combined with a taxi service, simply because they are more efficient for most everyday uses. Of course there are still people who would need cars and they would be available to those people by a sort of commonly owned Zip-Car service.

So if you have a job that relies on you moving around a lot or you will need to move a lot for a while and public transport doesn't cut it for your needs, you'd just have to ask the commonly owned zip-car service for a car. They'd make sure that you know how to drive (so that you don't risk harming other people) and then give you the car for whatever length of time you requested it for.

socialism 内の kijo98 によるリンク What is an unpopular opinion you, as a socialist, hold?

[–]The_Old_Gentleman 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

Of course reinforcing the labor movement is more important, strong unions are more important, revolutionary action is more important, but how can you claim that ameliorating the living conditions of the working class through socdemery isn't important?

It's not that seeking to improve the living conditions of the working class isn't important, it's that socdemery is a poor way to even do that. Campaigning for socdem parties and orienting social movements around political parties is an action that alienates working class self-organization to the bodies of the State, and even when this has the goal of establishing welfare-state policies that in principle can alleviate poverty and stabilize business cycles, is a tactic that backfires because it dis-empowers the proletariat (alienating decision-making and acting power to the State, instead of wielding it itself) as well as de-radicalizing the "socialists" who are joining the bourgeois theater.

The State is an institution with an inner logic of it's own and with permanent entrenched interests at all levels of it's bureaucracy, no party can simply participate in it with out being sucked into this inner logic or try to swim against the tide of the bureaucracy. I mean, observing the US presidential race as a South-American has been really funny because it seems no one on any side of the debate even knows how government works: Universal healthcare would obviously be a great change, but do Bernie supporters honestly believe he would have the political will-power to give free college and universal healthcare to the proletariat, as if the entrenched interests of the State bureaucracy and the current conditions of capitalism in crisis did not matter? A Bernie presidency would be indistinguishable from a Clinton presidency in all except maybe some details about foreign policy. Even a Trump presidency, unless he obtained dictatorial powers, wouldn't be too different from an 'average' Republican presidency - what is most scary about the Trump phenomenon is not the man himself but his supporters and the reactionary social forces they can directly unleash.

Moreover, government policy has to engage with how capitalism actually works. A State can't summon full employment when capitalism is undergoing a crisis of lacking profitability because doing so would deepen the recession even more. Look at how Social-Democracy in Venezuela tried to engage with the crisis through nationalization and price controls, and the ensuing capital flight just led to massive shortages and crumbling infrastructure. The living standards of the working class ultimately fell.

I'm a Brazilian and have seen this game being played before: PT (Worker's Party) rose to power with massive support from social movements, yet in order to play the parliamentary game and not disrupt the State bureaucracy or the capitalist economy too much all they could do was pursue small welfare-policies that are traditionally associated with liberalism (such as the Bolsa Família system of cash transfers). These policies while small did have a very positive impact in lowering poverty when combined with the Brazilian economic boom of the 2000's, however very quickly PT gave in to opportunism: Allying with socially reactionary religious fundamentalists, paralyzing all land reform efforts and allying with the latifundia, kicking thousands of poor people out of their homes to build the pathetic spectacle of the World Cup, making poor people massively indebted to rich construction companies under the guise of pursuing a serious urban reform, re-inforcing the police force and the army and their capacity to kick the autonomous social movements out of the streets; and meanwhile the once-vibrant social movements that led PT to power had become opportunistic shells of themselves, cheering for every one of these right-wing policies (because, after all, PT had lowered poverty so much!).

And after 14 years what did all of this amount to? The traditional right-wing strengthened itself at every step, the traditional left-wing social movements were completely defanged and turned into hotbeds of pathetic opportunism, the autonomous left social movements were kicked out of the street by the joint action of the PT and the traditional right-wing and Brazil is in a massive recession; and ultimately PT ended ousted from power by the traditional right-wing. Now they are reversing all of the small-but-positive changes that PT did while pursuing a terrifyingly reactionary program, as if the recession and stagflation had not already undone much of the positive change that happened between 2002 and 2013. The working class has largely stayed apathetic at the whole process because they don't have the willpower to defend PT at all, even though we all know that the coming Temer government is going to fuck shit up all that is left for us to do at this point is brace for impact and hope we won't fail to pay our rent.

How should the working class fight for better living conditions, if not through socdemery? Direct Action. Breaking with old union bureaucracies and engaging in serious strikes, forming their own mutual-aid networks independent of the State, forming local crime-watch and cop-watch councils and associations to protect themselves from systemic violence, occupying and taking abandoned state and private property and putting it to their own social ends, actively disrupting the functioning of capitalism and government. This sort of action would empower the proletariat to set the terms of how they want to improve their living conditions while compelling the government to seek reforms in order to make society governable again.

socialism 内の hau5keeping によるリンク Pope condemns "bloodsuckers" who exploit poor workers for profit

[–]The_Old_Gentleman 49ポイント50ポイント  (0子コメント)

Jesus fuck, i thought that the trend of leftists being gleeful about whatever the fuck the Pope talks about was done, but here it is again. I might as well expect people to become Syriza cheerleaders again, too.

The Pope says some stuff that is vaguely critical of income inequality and is also vaguely environmentalist, yes. The entire fucking Democratic Party establishment does too, it's not anything new or even 'progressive' at this point. "Nothing is easier than to give Christian asceticism a Socialist tinge."

Now ask the Pope about any of the issues that the Catholic Church gets flak for and that the Pope actually has power over (that is, ask the Pope about something where his opinion actually fucking matters) - like the Catholic Church's stances on contraception, or abortion, or homosexual relations, or transgender people, or how "no sex til marriage" is a ridiculous and unrealistic official position in the 21st century, or on corruption in the Church or on how their vague "anti-inequality" position is a joke when you think of how rich the Church is with out ever paying taxes - and he'll dance around the question so well that he might as well quit his job as Bishop of Rome to join the Bolshoi Theater. Seriously, every time Francis is asked about contraception or something like that all he does is argue "This is a pharisaic question! We have bigger problems!" and then go on to discuss something else.

Francis is a very charismatic dude and likes to ride off of this idea that he is very fucking progressive, but in reality he is even a step back in relation to fucking Benedict. Benedict was a hard-line conservative and didn't bulge even slightly on the traditional views, yes, but he actually had the gall to take a fucking stance on something, and deal with it with some level of nuance too. He opposed the use of condoms (though at least he also argued it was a way of accepting moral responsibilities) and he got flak for his stance on this, you won't find Francis getting publicly shat on for having the exact same fucking stances as Benedict did on every issue that matters because this is eclipsed by all the attention he gets for taking the allegedly radical position that poverty is bad!

The Catholic Church is not a "progressive" institution, and won't ever be. No Pope in the foreseeable future will bulge when it comes to the traditional views of the Church because dogmatic theology is literally the foundation of the entire institution. And i didn't even get into how the Pope ratted out actual liberation theologians to the Argentinian junta, either.

badeconomics 内の MyShitsFuckedDown3 によるリンク Central Banks, Gold Standards, EVERY WAR EVER, your birth certificate, bad economic history and more

[–]The_Old_Gentleman 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

The subreddit has basically been growing a bunch over the last few months, and is sort of trending towards becoming a low effort "general politics" discussion

Did you consider something like /r/badhistory's monthly moratoriums?

badeconomics 内の itachinosaigoppeh によるリンク "Participatory Economics and the Next System" by Robin Hahnel

[–]The_Old_Gentleman 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

It's not particularly hard to read, but some of the points they raised early on completely killed my interest in it.

The book is centered on justifying how a centrally-planned economy could work using computers to assess information and do calculations, planning the economy using labor-time as a unit for economic calculation. Early on they try to justify the idea that the USSR was legitimately "socialist" and had a fundamentally decent deal going on with the central planning, but it happened to be a particularly flawed model of socialism that besides being a brutal dictatorship also made key policy mistakes over it's history, and that's why it failed.

Their justification of why the USSR was "socialist" was that it "substituted the management of the social-surplus by the market for a political management of the social-surplus".

I'm already rather critical of any central planning and of any replies to the calculation problem that rely on "computers" (they completely miss the point of the debate - which is about the character of social relations, not the potential of specific technologies to solve technical problems. If Marx could conceive of socialism with out knowing any computers, so should we), but this defense of the USSR basically killed all my interest in the book. I mean:

  • "Socialism" is about the social ownership of the means of production, the abolition of exploitation, wage-labor and the commodity-form; and production directly for use. They don't touch any of these points or even discuss class at all.

  • A pretty fundamental aspect of socialist theory is that socialism implies an end to the "political character" of institutions, as politics is basically the arena of class struggles. A society where the social-surplus is managed "politically" can only possibly be a class society, i.e not socialism.

So basically the book already gave away that their conception of "socialism" was a terribly flawed and could hardly even be considered "socialism". Though to be fair i may be off the mark since it's been two and a half years since i read this part of the book though.

badeconomics 内の itachinosaigoppeh によるリンク "Participatory Economics and the Next System" by Robin Hahnel

[–]The_Old_Gentleman 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I should note that i've come to see some serious issues with the part about a "hierarchy of production priorities" as Robin presents it. I wouldn't call it a "paper" either as Robin is not AFAIK an academic but a writer for the SPGB (which is one of the best "Socialist Parties" around when it comes to theory, but that's not a particularly hard achievement).

One work that a lot of people cite when it comes to solving information problems is "For a New Socialism" by Cockshott and Cottrell, but i found myself rage-quitting really early into that book.

CapitalismVSocialism 内の JobDestroyer によるリンク In your brand of Socialism, could I do a line of coke off of a hookers tits?

[–]The_Old_Gentleman 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

Prostitution wouldn't be "illegal" but i don't think it would exist at all, at least not in any way recognizable as "prostitution" to us today. Like, there would be no incentive to sell sex as a commodity (or to sell anything as a commodity) in a socialist/communist economy nor would poverty and gendered-violence force people into those jobs, but anyone who does want to have no-strings-attached sex or perform some sort of "sex work" because they genuinely enjoy doing so would be free to do so. Think of it like this: There would be no "porn industry" but there would be /r/gonewild and the like, something analogous to that would be true for sex work in general.

As for cocaine, production and distribution of it would be legal, but wouldn't receive much public support so the coke enthusiast community would be responsible for obtaining their own stuff on their own. Plus they'd probably be strongly incentivized to go into rehab and drop coke by everyone around them.

So in a socialist if you want to snort cocaine off of someone's tits and that person consents, that's your own affair.

badeconomics 内の MyShitsFuckedDown3 によるリンク Central Banks, Gold Standards, EVERY WAR EVER, your birth certificate, bad economic history and more

[–]The_Old_Gentleman 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Well i'm terribly out of the loop when it comes to this subreddit and reddit in general really but my 2 cents on the entire ordeal:

  • I certainly do think that ideological bias is a thing when judging the legitimacy of an RI, even if mods are not judging for "correctness". I don't really blame anyone for that, it's more or less inevitable.

  • I certainly wouldn't post badmarxianecon (the only type i'm comfortable submiting an RI for) in this sub, i kind of doubt it would be well-received or considered "on-topic" at all. Plus if i did post one i'd either have to post an AnCap (too low hanging fruit for me this point), a tankie (would lead to /r/socialism drama and no one here except MSFD would understand my hilarious jokes about the intricacies of the revolutionary science of tankieism) or someone from this own sub and i'd like to avoid that.

  • I think this whole change about RI's and the silver thread is kinda shitty in general tbh, though i wasn't really lurking when the decision to build this stuff happened

  • I think that judging one's contribution to the sub in terms of "RI's" is kinda arbitrary. I mean me and several posters here have already contributed to this sub a lot with out really having an interest in posting an RI. And does every time i've criticized an RI count as an RI too?

So my verdict is: Everything is shit. Though to be honest my verdict on all things Reddit is "everything is shit" so don't take this to mean anything.