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RB GroundImportant Poll regarding RB mode (forum.warthunder.com)

CEOAntonYudintsev が 投稿

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[–]CEOAntonYudintsev[S] 34ポイント35ポイント  (143子コメント)

Dear RB players!

As you all know, one of the main differences between AB and RB is the existence of "enemy markers". Initially RB GF mode has the same visibility system as Arcade, but due to community requests, we switched off enemy markers in RB. This gives better immersion and deeper tactics but also leads to an ability to illegally modify the client of the game to gain an unfair advantage by showing this marker to someone (a.k.a. "Wallhack").

Due to the online nature of the game and really large distances of spotting/visibility as well as the distance of unconditional spotting (hearing distance) it is not technically possible to completely remove such threat, without showing actual information on a client (AB enemy markers). This was to be expected and we conveyed this concern, but all together we chose the "fight with bad guys" approach, since such an unfair advantage is relatively small (although still existent).

We routinely find and ban such bad guys, and at the end of last year we decided to announce "waves of bans".This was a very successful way, and we have seen a constant decrease of numbers in such cases, from an initial couple of hundred to almost twenty last month. Of course, it is still a sword & shield competition, since we can only start to find illegal modifications after they have been made, not in advance, but the situation was under control and slowly improving.

As a well established industry-standard, we can not forbid the "bad guys" to play or ban them immediately after EULA violation - this will help the creators of such software to find ways to get around our methods. So, we usually do that on an approximately monthly basis (or if the chances of seeing one in a battle became higher than 0.5%), we also do not always ban those who did it if they have first tried it not long before the ban wave or even if they did it only a couple of times. Again, this is the industry standard of a "penalty approach" - it really helps to fight illegal software.

However, our rules (as well as this subreddit rules) forbid any advertising or discussion of such illegal modifications, since it does only harm. Any such "discussion" works both as an advertisement of illegal modification, and ”convinces incorrectly” a lot of people, that any good player or any lucky shot is because someone is cheating (I have personally been reported as "cheater" multiple time).

That's why it is forbidden by our rules and we strike down such videos as soon as we find them (usually it is advertisement videos from the software creators).

However, a very respected youtuber PhlyDaily has recently released a video of this kind. This video, regardless of the "I am against cheaters" disclaimer was working very much as an advertisement of illegal software, basically working against it's own disclaimer (it also discouraged players in participating in RB, exaggerating the current situation). Thanks to this video, we are already seeing some growth of interest for such software. There is no help to be gained from such a video that the developers or our community can get. It also violates our EULA/Terms of Use as it works as an advertisement of commercial software, and thus violates our public copyright license for youtubers as well.

We immediately contacted PhlyDaily, but he refused to remove this video (regardless of its violation of our license), and although he hid it later it is still available by direct link. I am sure, he meant best, but issue still there. Of course, we have rights to strike down this video (and more importantly others of such kind), as it is not only violating our public license, but also damages the game for honest players. PhlyDaily is a very respected (by both developers (sincerely! I like most of his videos as well as other developers in team) and community) youtuber and we don't want this strike to look like an act of censorship of his free will, even if we want best for the game itself.

We can also return enemy markers back to the RB game mode, and that will effectively put an end to any "wallhack" in that mode, like in an AB. Otherwise it is impossible to completely overcome these "cheaters" in RB, we can only ban them after a wrongdoing (which we already were doing, and very effectively). However, if we can't fight such advertisements, than what now is obviously not much of a problem will become very significant one, and can possibly ruin the experience for everyone.

We had a very intense and lengthy internal discussion in what to do with the situation and then decided to let our community choose.

So, what shall we choose, besides finding and punishing bad guys and announce that on the forums, as we already doing?

1) Strike any such videos, according to our license, and fight any advertisement (or "discussion") of illegal modifications in general, regardless of any "disclaimers" in a video.

2) Change the game mode design - Return markers to RB mode and put an end to any reason for modifications.

Please vote!

[–]PhlyDaily 124ポイント125ポイント  (66子コメント)

  1. The video is hidden
  2. Why is this public? This is a personal affair.
  3. If anyone wants to cheat they will. If anyone wants to steal they will. If anyone wants to torrent a game they will.
  4. I never showcased a cheat... I showed a replay of someone I thought that was cheating.
  5. Videos like this will help you identify and and hone in on cheating mods in the game.
  6. When you state "There is no help to be gained from such a video that the developers or our community can get." I think it does help because it puts pressure on your team to identify problems in the game.
  7. Maybe introduction an "overwatch" something like CS:GO could aid in purging cheaters from the game.
  8. Please for the love of god, do not put markers back in RB Tanks.
  9. Have a good weekend Anton

-edit I wrote in bullets/numbers not to be sassy, but I have to edit for the weekend today. Not enough time to think/write properly.

[–]die689 8ポイント9ポイント  (0子コメント)

Hey Phly I like your youtube channel, keep up the good work.

[–]verethra ahmi verethravastemôVerethra 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

The video is hidden

Well you can still find the video somewhere else. Don't underestimate Internet bru!

[–]Finally in SBDr_shiffla 10ポイント11ポイント  (7子コメント)

This is Ridiculous. We shouldn't be bullied into censorship just because the CEO of this entire company decides he doesn't want to deal with it properly and makes us chose an ultimatum between choices that barely even correspond with each other. If he makes us "choose" to put RB markers back in then I'm done and I can guess so are a ton of other people, but im not gonna vote to censor Youtubers who basically promote there game for them to thousands of people. I've stuck with this game for going on 4 years now, but if they go back to the yay tanks were when they first came out I'm done. I'll just play another game like IL2 or DCS and give them my money. Phly doesn't even have a press account anymore, but he still stuck to this game and gave them his money. Just because he put up a video of a replay showing questionable things in this game. None of witch showcased concrete evidence of cheating. I'm still in awe that the CEO would make a move like this on the small community that care about the game.

[–]PzKpfw M4 748 (a)Luna_Sakara 5ポイント6ポイント  (6子コメント)

If he makes us "choose" to put RB markers back in then I'm done and I can guess so are a ton of other people.

Well, I want to point this out first. - This is basically why arcade is (fucking) shit, being spotted at all times invalidates so many combat options and possible counter play options.

Put that in RB, where players are already honed for seeking hidden targets, players that know how to run a CAS mission - with out suicide bombing the ground for a kill. Might as well consider my wallet closed.

We shouldn't be bullied into censorship

And this is one of the larger problems I've had with the game, I can assume a good many people involved in it are perfectly normal, well adjusted people who do this because it's something they love, and it's profitable.

But why dose it constantly feel like the people in power treat this community like the oppressed masses of a tyrannical regime. I mean, that might work when the people you're trying to oppress can't leave... but this is a game, one I and indeed any of us can freely leave anytime.

Phly doesn't even have a press account anymore, but he still stuck to this game and gave them his money.

Proof, that there are people who really care about this game, I'm one of them too. I have no problem saying that, I love the game, it's well made, looks amazing - and for the most part seems to cohesively move in the right direction.

But all the scandalous, and nonsensical things that seems to be a near daily occurrences behind the scenes really shakes my faith that the game is truly trying to be a success and more of an outlet for angry people to do as they please with out reprise.

If I could give any advice to the CEO, Calm down. the people who cheat free to play games are people who would never give your game money, and have no respect for the game or the community. While I do partly agree that talking about third party tools might see a rise in use or interest in them. It seems like it would be absolutely marginal - people with invested accounts would almost never hack, those that do are probably not that worthwhile as part of the community anyway. Might be best to layoff the censorship, people are going to talk, you can't stop that from happening. Better to bring this minor issue to light, and work with us to help find and remove the problem. - yes believe it or not, the community will help you fix the problems for free, because we get an awesome game out of it - but needless censorship of something that could be used in your benefit only raises more questions, and makes people talk more, and that will inevitably lead back to you with negativity.

I don't want that, so, I hope you'll reconsider you're positions on this poll. we don't want markers back, and I see no reason to censor something that could be used to aid you, and us find problems, hackers, and the like to make the game better.

[–]kataskopo 7ポイント8ポイント  (5子コメント)

I really like this game but if they put markets I would definitely stop playing as much, or at all, and that would fucking suck :/

Please Anton, let the community help you identify cheaters.

[–]CEOAntonYudintsev[S] -1ポイント0ポイント  (4子コメント)

Please Anton, let the community help you identify cheaters.

I have been personally identified by cheater many times. Community do have some issues with it, we are doing that much more accurate.

[–]kataskopo 6ポイント7ポイント  (2子コメント)

Ive been called a hacker in basically every online game I've played, dumb reports lie that happen all the time.

But I was referring to people in the forums or on Reddit, where we could be more organized and accurate at identifying what is a cheater, and have some kind of robust ID system with several people watching over replays or something like that.

[–]CEOAntonYudintsev[S] -2ポイント-1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Everyone can look replay and yet there are plenty of false reports. More than real one.

[–]kataskopo 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

But there's not a comprehensive centralized effort against cheaters, either in the subreddit or the forums because it's forbidden to talk about it.

[–]kataskopo 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Also, thanks for answering all this comments!

[–]lordikioner 8ポイント9ポイント  (23子コメント)

Don't let them wound or scare you, Phly.

[–]CEOAntonYudintsev[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (22子コメント)

Don't be silly.

There are no hard feelings between developers and Phly. He removed video without any copyright strike whatsever.

It is general question regarding future (potential) videos.

[–]in WT hype = premium vehicleottersRneat 12ポイント13ポイント  (17子コメント)

You made it pretty god damn clear that was your next step. Do you remember The Know? I do. You have a proven track record with being a bully.

[–]CEOAntonYudintsev[S] 1ポイント2ポイント  (16子コメント)

Phly hid his video before my post, video was already there for enough time, so it doesn't make any sense to threaten him.

Our concern is about future.

[–]in WT hype = premium vehicleottersRneat 17ポイント18ポイント  (0子コメント)

Phly's video never once made me question the game or it's quality. You however really made me question whether I even want to be a customer anymore. These threats, ultimatums and censorship attempts coupled with your apparent change in focus to the bottom dollar have hurt your image far more than Phly could ever do.

[–]OP-34NotAzakanAtAll 0ポイント1ポイント  (14子コメント)

Huge respect for you Anton. I can fully see the problem you guys have with cheating and why you put down the hammer on it. But I don't think it was very nice to single out Phly even if you don't mean any harm in it.

I also don't think an "overwatch"-system will solve much. I'm fine with you cracking down on cheating as you have in the past and wish that you get new systems to identify cheaters so that in the long run it won't be profitable to cheat as thee risk to get caught would be large.

Announce when you ban cheaters, that will scare players more then any censure will.

⋅⋅⋅ᴿᵉᵐᵉᵐᵇᵉʳ ᵗʰᵉ ᵐᵉ ⁴¹⁰'ˢ ᵇᵘᶫᶫᵉᵗᵖʳᵒᵒᶠ ʷᶦᶰᵈˢᶜʳᵉᵉᶰ⋅

[–]CEOAntonYudintsev[S] -1ポイント0ポイント  (13子コメント)

I can fully see the problem you guys have with cheating and why you put down the hammer on it. But I don't think it was very nice to single out Phly even if you don't mean any harm in it.

May be. But he is very respected in community, and I hope people will see it as it is - although he made some harm, but he meant good. Also he presented us with a dilemma about potential future videos, so we should be grateful.

I also don't think an "overwatch"-system will solve much.

Unfortunately, me neither. People suspect any good player...

Announce when you ban cheaters, that will scare players more then any censure will.

We already doing that since December. And it indeed is very successful.

[–]fatkidfallsdown 5ポイント6ポイント  (11子コメント)

you do know google is a thing right and no one needs a video to tell them to look for cheats or how or that they exist i mean really...

[–]Gatortribe 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yeah the problem with an overwatch system is that unlike CS:GO, your settings do affect what you can see. Maybe you're on ultra but the suspect isn't, so he saw the person while you can't. Maybe the suspect is just really, really keen (it happens) and saw something you didn't.

The thing about CS:GO overwatch is that it's really easy to tell if someone is tracking another player through the wall and that's an ESP. In War Thunder, the suspect could be tracking the sound or maybe he caught a glimmer and noted the speed/trajectory. Anyone doing overwatch would just say "yep, cheats."

[–]lordikioner 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

I appreciate that CEO of the company is talking stuff out. I don't think that there is another one who does that. But, if a normal player like me will read that article of yours we will see only that meaning. Wording is really important. And here wording is harsh and that makes it looks like a full whip on the back of Phly.

[–]How to improve WT, remove US AirJGStonedRaider 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

You imply Anton whipping Phly isn't Phlys fetish?

[–]M8A1 Big Cat KillerClockworkRaider 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I understand gaijin's position on hacking. On one hand the team is trying very hard to minimize the damage hackers do to the overall gaming experience of users. On the other hand the team actively deny's that hacking is in the game and sometimes even denying that such things exists, which I think is a silly claim to make but I digress. In a way it's like Gaijin is fighting a secret war against hackers while stating to the public that no war exists. But I think the fact that you have publicly acknowledged the fact that hacking happens and have explained how Gaijin is actively fighting this shows that Gaijin does really care about the game and the community.

In an ideal world you would have the community report the hackers but as you mentioned, this doesn't work because anybody that is having a bad day will report the person that knocked them out, and there is no way Gaijin can handle the sheer number of reports they would get.

Realistically, introducing an "overwatch" system may reduce some of the hackers, but would require a huge investment in manpower and time, especially since War Thunder can have in excess of 5,000 battles occurring at approximately the same time.

This is a very difficult situation to resolve and as I'm sure a lot of members of the community feel, we don't have an answer for you. Because many will view the response to Phly's video as "censorship" even though it is not, miscommunication always happens. At the same time it is good that the team has opened up to the community and is explaining your choices.

[–]Baron_Tiberius 9ポイント10ポイント  (9子コメント)

While I don't agree with censorship, you have to take some responsibility over the influence you have with a great many players in this game. It may seem morally right to point out cheaters in the game but the real effect is spreading information that there are cheats out there - and if what Anton says is true than that is quantifiable.

Cheating in this game seems very rare, and if the most effective was of dealing with it is to not talk about it - then everyone with a vested interest in the game should do their best to not spread it.

This poll will probably cause more stink and visibility over the issue and IMO was a bad idea, not to mention the non-exclusive poll options forcing strategic voting.

[–]Ich bin ein YouTuber!Hirumaru 3ポイント4ポイント  (8子コメント)

but the real effect is spreading information that there are cheats out there

Doesn't fucking matter unless you're a cheater. Only cheaters use cheats. Are you calling everyone who watches his videos a latent cheater?

Does watching violent movies make people violent? No. Does watching a YouTube video about suspected cheating make people cheat? No.

What fucking bullshit, boyo. The ones who cheat already know about this shit. They're cheaters. They don't just wait for some wiseass to post a video; they go out and look for themselves long before us rule-abiding ever get wind of it.

[–]Baron_Tiberius -3ポイント-2ポイント  (4子コメント)

Please read.

if what Anton says is true -Me

Referring to a noted increase in cheating"growth in interest of [hacking] software" after the video,

Thanks to this video, we are already seeing some growth of interest for such software. -Anton

If you want to have a rational discussion please come back.

edit: altered some wording to be more accurate (original wording left)

[–]Ich bin ein YouTuber!Hirumaru 3ポイント4ポイント  (3子コメント)

That man has lied, bullshitted, and insulted us far too often to be believed without proof.

What are his metrics for "growth of interest for such software"? Oh, wait, maybe we're all just too stupid to understand them. Just like we can't possibly handle seeing their glorious statistics that govern battle rating adjustments.

I am perfectly rational. You are the one who sounds like a Jack Thompson supporter.

[–]Baron_Tiberius -3ポイント-2ポイント  (2子コメント)

That man has lied, bullshitted, and insulted us far too often to be believed without proof.

Which is probably why I included an if in that statement, but you don't seem to care about that so... What possible reason might they have for making this up? They certainly don't stand to gain anything from this. Hell, I even said I thought it was a bad idea. But if raging at me makes you feel better, go ahead.

[–]Ich bin ein YouTuber!Hirumaru 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

What reason? He's a fool who seems to be throwing a temper tantrum because someone showed that his game has cheaters, despite Gaijin constantly saying that hacks and cheats are impossible. He doesn't need a rational reason to lie and pull shit out of his ass to make his overly dramatic case. Just look at the fucking poll, just look at this thread. It's fucking bananas, man.

Edit: By the way, you are free to interpret my tone how you wish, but that is on you.

[–]Baron_Tiberius -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

I think the poll is dumb, but only that. I think they have honest intentions (as in they see the problem), but their reaction is indeed completely inappropriate and unjustified. Killing an ant with a hammer.

I do think it's interesting that they can see an increase of hacking but can't do anything about it. Is it just an increase in reports, or an actual increase in confirmed hacking?

Edit: your first reply came off as very knee-jerk

[–]T3 T5 T4 T3 T3ZombieNinjaPanda -5ポイント-4ポイント  (2子コメント)

Does watching violent movies make people violent

What does this have to do with anything? How about this comparison instead: Does watching a video on how to make meth teach some people to make meth? Why, yes. Yes it does.

[–]Ich bin ein YouTuber!Hirumaru 5ポイント6ポイント  (1子コメント)

You fucked up your own little comparison, boyo.

Rather, does watching a video on how to make meth turn you into either a meth addict or meth dealer? No. The real world isn't Breaking Bad.

Does watching a video about people using cheats let you know about cheats? Yes. Does it make you a cheater? No.

[–]CEOAntonYudintsev[S] 4ポイント5ポイント  (18子コメント)

Hi Phly!

  1. Video was still available by direct link.:) But we are referring to future potential videos.

  2. it is more of general question. We need to know how solve such issues before they got hundreds of thousands of views. If we were not able to get even your video hidden after discussion - then we will have even harder times with others. Please do not take it personally or any offend. I tried to show my respect to you couple of times in this statement and I meant it.

  3. And the more videos about such software people will release, the more people will want it.

  4. Well, he was cheating :) But that even is not a question - video was still stating it.

  5. Nope, it actually doesn't. It helps only to sell such software. Also, if you want to help - you can send video directly to developers.

  6. Nope. There is completely no use. It result in player's churn, it results in numerous false "cheat reporters", it results in more cheaters, and all of this does put pressure on us, but there is literally no help whatsever.

  7. may be

  8. We won't, if people won't vote for it. Democracy in action!!!

  9. You too, man :) And I wish to see more great videos from you!

[–]17njl01 24ポイント25ポイント  (11子コメント)

Nope, it actually doesn't. It helps only to sell such software. Also, if you want to help - you can send video directly to developers.

I'm not sure I understand the correlation between a video showing a cheater and the boost of sales of any cheating software. It would seem that they would have nothing to do with it, as I watched the video Phly put out, and he never identified the software that the player used, he just simply said that he was cheating and showed how said player would have cheated. I don't know how that would boost the sales of cheat software, in fact, I would think it would lower the sales because of a major youtube like Phly called this player out on his cheating, which would, in my mind, deter someone from doing so because of the negative fallout on that player.

[–]US APDS can't detonate Soviet ammo racks, 1917 was an inside jobBreads_Labyrinth 7ポイント8ポイント  (6子コメント)

I think the argument is that if a famous Youtuber puts up a video showcasing a cheater, regardless of intention or even how much information on the cheat is included, this will inevitably make the knowledge of cheats more widespread. The more people that know about cheats, the more people will cheat, because cheaters are a percentage of the population - the more people know about the cheat, some of them are going to go and look up cheats. This in turn means more work for Gaijin and a higher chance of running into a cheater in a game.

On the flip side, you could argue that exposing cheaters via replay could help inform the general populace what to look for when they suspect someone of hacking, by showing them an example, however given "wallhacks" are the only viable cheat currently, you could argue that it's quite obvious what to look for.

[–]17njl01 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yeah, I agree. It just didn't really make sense to me as the video itself was fairly harmless in its intention, because all he was doing was just pointing out how bs the shots were and how there was no possible way that it wasnt cheating. And I feel that Gaijin is overreacting over this whole dealio, because if someone wanted to cheat, they would actually go through the effort of looking it up, instead of waiting for a video showing the cheat.

[–]Baron_Tiberius 0ポイント1ポイント  (4子コメント)

On the flip side, you could argue that exposing cheaters via replay could help inform the general populace what to look for when they suspect someone of hacking, by showing them an example, however given "wallhacks" are the only viable cheat currently, you could argue that it's quite obvious what to look for.

I think in the specific case of war thunder this doesn't work. More likely reports of hacks go up, but not necessarily valid reports of hacks. Still very possible to make hack-like shots without assistance. There are some obvious signs, but many would already recognize those (like shooting through multiple buildings with no hope of line-of-sight).

[–]US APDS can't detonate Soviet ammo racks, 1917 was an inside jobBreads_Labyrinth 3ポイント4ポイント  (3子コメント)

War Thunder's lucky enough that trigger bots are useless, spinbots would be even more so, and turret traverse prevents aimhack from snapping to targets to save your ass, so really all you can do with cheats is be uncannily accurate at long range and see through terrain. Still fucking annoying, but at least it's a lot easier to not only counter but also identify for the people who ban cheaters.

[–]Baron_Tiberius 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

it's a lot easier

In some situations yes, but others no. I've made some pretty ridiculous shots in hind-sight and been accused of hacking or ULQing before. IMO by spreading the news that ESP hacking exists and asking for reports gaijin would more likely be flooded with reports from salty players against honest players and would make the true reports even harder to get to.

[–]US APDS can't detonate Soviet ammo racks, 1917 was an inside jobBreads_Labyrinth 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

Good point, our own little hack-scare would leave them inundated...

[–]How to improve WT, remove US AirJGStonedRaider 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

I used to do CSGO overwatch but gave up after endless games where one guy gets a good shot on people being dumb and they do nothing suspicious the entire game.

OMG he killed me I AM PERFECT REPORTEDDDDDD....pretty much sums up CSGO OW with the occasional actual cheater thrown in.

[–]Baron_Tiberius 3ポイント4ポイント  (3子コメント)

Phly's videos are seen by a lot of players. Many might not have known that cheats existed for the game, as it projects a myth of no-cheats. You don't have to be told the name of the anything to find it, that's why google exists.

The kind of people that cheat in games are only in it for themselves, and don't give a rat's ass what anyone (even a popular youtuber) thinks.

[–]17njl01 5ポイント6ポイント  (2子コメント)

I dont think anyone believed that there were no cheats in this game. And you are right, people who cheat don't really care, but you woud still think it would have an adverse effect on the groups of people who do cheat.

[–]Baron_Tiberius 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

still think it would have an adverse effect

But why? Did they secretly think before that Phly liked cheating? You don't go and pay for a hack when you're that impressionable.

I dont think anyone believed that there were no cheats in this game.

not-new-players, no they usually know that cheats exist. However Phly's channel attracts a lot of new and casual(infrequent) players who are more likely to not know.

[–]How to improve WT, remove US AirJGStonedRaider -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

Most gamers are very casual and don't inform themselves about games / cheats. I understand Gaijins point of view.

[–]lordikioner 9ポイント10ポイント  (2子コメント)

:\ When Overwatch is coming out?

[–]Forum ModeratorKillerAceUSAF 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Comes out Monday at 4pm Western time.

[–]Mmm. Tastes like Communism and shame.kmacku 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

Democracy in action!!!

Giving voters a choice between two terrible options and calling it Democracy. Taking lessons from us Americans, I see!

[–]LawDog03 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Oh yes. Two bullshit options to vote on. True democracy. Give you permission to abuse the strike system. Or ruin a game mode (which I'm sure you will do anyways given enough time, just like sim eh?).

[–]Farleys RusFagsSkip_Intro 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

Re: 7. If you do not wish to take coders away from developing the game, contact and discuss with (for example) Infistar https://infistar.de/ possible integrated solutions. This tool was invaluable within the DayZ mod community. This is the kind of tool that would give your moderators an actual use, beyond their current role as community irritations, following up on reports, investigating and acting upon.

P.S Implementing markers in RB would kill WT entirely for me too.

[–]Every tank unlocked (1.57)Hazey652 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Maybe introduction an "overwatch" something like CS:GO could aid in purging cheaters from the game.

Over watch works well because (as far as im aware) you can only judge players in the same skill bracket as you or lower, preventing a lower rank judge (Im not sure what rank is the min but its somewhere in the middle I think) from judging a Global Elite for example where the player just may be really good.

But warthunder does not have such a skill system, because what is to say someone reports me when they are salty and an average player judges my replay? Of course I shouldn't have to worry as I know im a legit player but I'd like to think that im quite good at RB GF (and my stats match this) so whats to say that the judge may suspect im using cheats and I get reported? Would it be reviewed again by multiple players? Or sent strait to Gaijin?

It works for CS:GO but I just dont think it would work for warthunder.

[–]Rank 100 ClubSomeoneSimple -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

If anyone wants to cheat they will.

Exactly, and a great way to trigger these people is when a reasonably popular internet-person spreads the word on twitter and youtube that cheats are available that would let them do absurd kills. So absurd even, that a reasonably popular internet-person makes an entire showcase about the absurdness of a single kill.

Want to get featured by internet-persons too ? Better buy that wallhack !

Anywho, I hope RB indicators stay, and may Anton's dmca-/banhammer strike hard and swiftly.

[–]ABrokenWolf 10ポイント11ポイント  (5子コメント)

I am voting in the poll now, but I wanted to reply directly to you here, adding markers would ruin the gameplay that makes RB such a draw for many of us, I would not continue to play RB if markers were added back (which means I would likely not continue to play at all)

[–]CEOAntonYudintsev[S] 11ポイント12ポイント  (4子コメント)

If we would think that EVERYONE would be happy with markers there would not be anything to ask.

But it is not 100% bad change, a lot of people seem to like that.

It is hard to make good choice for everyone :(.

[–]Poly-sciArmyGuy 20ポイント21ポイント  (2子コメント)

Bringing in markers would ruin the mode for me. Lack of markers is (among other things) a main reason that I left World of Tanks for WT.

[–]Doctah_Whoopass -3ポイント-2ポイント  (1子コメント)

It's not that bad tho. Markers mostly just indicate the general direction of an enemy, and are often inaccurate.

[–]ABrokenWolf 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Markers fall within 3-4 tank lengths of a tank, if you are using a tank that relies upon ambush tactics or flanking, it gives you away reducing available play options and puts an emphasis on playing the more armored alternatives.

[–]ABrokenWolf -2ポイント-1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I completely understand that it is a hard choice, and I am confident that you will find a way to handle this as best as possible (I have faith in your team, as shown by the rather large amount I have put into this game to show my support).

[–]KVEnricoMicheli 9ポイント10ポイント  (0子コメント)

Having strike videos on one side and change the game mode on the other seems a way of tying two separate decisions into one single vote.

[–]lordikioner 33ポイント34ポイント  (38子コメント)

You are basically asking us to either kill RB mode or approve censorship. You just received our whole support and respect over all these cool news we were given and RP boost for air...and now this.

[–]CEOAntonYudintsev[S] 1ポイント2ポイント  (37子コメント)

Well, you can put it that way, but that is very twisted.

I am sure you agree that there is limit to what one can do with freedom of information. Using our game for advertisement of 3rd party commercial product or EULA violations is not allowed by our public license.

It has nothing to do with freedom of speech or freedom of opinion.

Just please don't publish videos with EULA violation in it. Show your opinion in some other video.

[–]Saltzier 27ポイント28ポイント  (0子コメント)

Well, you can put it that way, but that is very twisted.

Currently the the poll offers only two extremes and no third "I can't/won't vote for either one." third option.

It would be very beneficial to see the relative percentages of those who do not want option 1 or 2.

[–]KVEnricoMicheli 10ポイント11ポイント  (18子コメント)

Well, you can put it that way, but that is very twisted.

While there's been a recent discussion on the different view of perceived censorship in the russian culture, which would excuse you from not seing this as an ultimatum, the "internet" stance on this is pretty obviously leaning towards the "never censor" choice, so it seems easy to guess that many feel this as a forced decision to fight censorship.

[–]CEOAntonYudintsev[S] 1ポイント2ポイント  (17子コメント)

That's fine.

BTW, in-house internal discussion let to exactly same decision - "let's not strike anything, let's return just markers".

It is much simpler for everyone and 100% efficient.

[–]Westwick 10ポイント11ポイント  (1子コメント)

Returning markers removes the main reason people play Realistic Battles. You might not have as many cheaters, and you also might not have as many players.

But yes it does make it all much simpler. That is, the decision to stop playing will be very simple.

[–]да ТоварищArthanias 4ポイント5ポイント  (6子コメント)

Basically though, wouldn't adding markers just be letting the cheaters win?

[–]PzKpfw M4 748 (a)Luna_Sakara 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Cheaters can't cheat if everyone is cheating. That's some quality logic.

[–]CEOAntonYudintsev[S] 3ポイント4ポイント  (4子コメント)

No, not doing anything will be letting them win.

You are not really thinking they are fighting for returning of markers, are you...? They only care about there personal advantage.

[–]да ТоварищArthanias 2ポイント3ポイント  (3子コメント)

I know, what i meant was that cheaters install these mods so they can have markers, so if you give them markers normally then they get what they want without it even being illegal.

I'm not saying we should do nothing. As you said; current measures employed are already lowering the amount of cheaters by a big amount, so if you keep doing that i think the problem will remain relatively small.

And finally, some cheaters just cheat because they like the feeling. So if you give them markers they will just find something else to cheat for.

[–]CEOAntonYudintsev[S] 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

And finally, some cheaters just cheat because they like the feeling. So if you give them markers they will just find something else to cheat for.

Which in this case will be some other game :)

[–]да ТоварищArthanias 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

Which wouldn't fix the problem, it would just move it.

I love this game, and I think Gaijin is a good company, but if you go with either of the options that are being presented right now, a massive shitstorm will erupt.

If markers are added to RB, it would lose tons of players and basically lose the one thing that makes it unique.

If you start deleting videos, people from all gamemodes will leave, and some youtubers will probably stop covering the game.

I beg you to close this poll and start a more nuanced discussion with the playerbase on what to do, as the way it's looking now it can only end badly, and i'd hate to see that.

[–]KVEnricoMicheli 3ポイント4ポイント  (5子コメント)

The thing is markers absence is a defining feature of RB, removing it could lead to many stop playing it, as that's a 100% likelihood of getting a match with markers (obviously), while now there's only around a 0.5% likelihood of getting a match with a cheater, as you said.

[–]CEOAntonYudintsev[S] 3ポイント4ポイント  (4子コメント)

It was 0.5%. With advertising it can became much more, up to 100%.

[–]fatkidfallsdown 6ポイント7ポイント  (1子コメント)

no it cant

[–]Westwick 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Gives some insight into the mentality though doesn't it....

[–]ethanrdale 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

Are you implying that your entire player base including yourself will cheat if people make videos discussing cheating?

[–]CEOAntonYudintsev[S] 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Of course not.

You need only about 3% of cheaters of all player base to have 100% chance of meeting one in a match. You got 32 players max in a match.

[–]kataskopo 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

So you would rather let the small, minuscule amount of cheaters win than let people discuss about cheating?

[–]in WT hype = premium vehicleottersRneat 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

So your team favors punishing the average player over censorship and censorship over fixing your game. You do realize we pay you money, right?

[–]lordikioner 26ポイント27ポイント  (8子コメント)

With all due respect, you are making us deal with an ultimatum, and you know that.

[–]CEOAntonYudintsev[S] 3ポイント4ポイント  (7子コメント)

It is developers who are faced ultimatum.

We have two choices: fight with "wallhack" in RB with all resources or change RB game mode rules.

Of course, all of us has third option "not fight cheaters and not do anything", but developers can't choose it, because we don't want to see RB mode dying.

But if you insist, I can add third option to poll.

[–]lordikioner 10ポイント11ポイント  (4子コメント)

3: "Every WT youtuber will sign an NDA waiver about cheats and in addition - We will buy an anti-cheat system or make our own." ?

[–]CEOAntonYudintsev[S] 3ポイント4ポイント  (2子コメント)

What...? We already have anticheat system.

It is only effective if there are not so many cheaters, because we can't ban instantly, or bad guys will find a way around it.

[–]lordikioner 6ポイント7ポイント  (1子コメント)

Then there is another problem - lack of communication. I am actively playing since December 2013 and actual anticheat system working in WT (apart from ban system, something that instantly recognize cheats or can prevent their usage) is news for me.

[–]CEOAntonYudintsev[S] 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Ban waves reports are posted on forum since last December.

[–]Doctah_Whoopass 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Getting people to do that is rather silly and prevents a lot of small WT content being produced. I don't want to have to sign a fucking NDA just to post a video of a sweet kill or funny clip.

[–]Talpaman 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

we don't want to see RB mode dying.

you guys already killed sim, this will kill realistic.

[–]Stop ruining SB GFDortmunder1 12ポイント13ポイント  (6子コメント)

You'll have to explain at what point Phly advertised a cheat. Pointing out that someone was cheating in a game he was playing isn't an advertisement...

I've run across a cheater, have proof, reported it. Gaijin won't do anything about it. Maybe you should worry more about enforcing bans, than worrying about people pointing out that you aren't doing it.

You'd think a CEO would understand something so simple.

[–]CEOAntonYudintsev[S] 5ポイント6ポイント  (5子コメント)

You'll have to explain at what point Phly advertised a cheat. Pointing out that someone was cheating in a game he was playing isn't an advertisement...

I would argue here (although no doubt it was not intentional), but it is not even a question. Our license is not allowing broadcast any EULA violation (and cheat is obviously violation).

[–]V V V V Vfighterpilot248 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

Ok, so I get that cheating is against the EULA, as with many MMO's. But how is showing off a cheat through the replay system, which cannot actively show a cheat, especially from another players perspective, (IE player A cheats, and then player B views his replay file showing that player A did in fact cheat) count as a violation of the EULA? The user viewing the replay is simply using a part of the game to show that another user is cheating.

I get it's a violation if someone makes a video titled "War Thunder Wall Hack" that shows the illegal mod being used, but when all a user is doing is showcasing that someone is cheating, an EULA violation makes no sense.

Ban the cheaters, not the whistle blowers bringing attention to the cheaters.

(Side note: Sorry if this is poorly written and hard to understand, I can clarify if need be.)

[–]Stop ruining SB GFDortmunder1 5ポイント6ポイント  (1子コメント)

Exactly my point. He showed a replay, and in no way "broadcasted" a cheat. He simply recorded and uploaded a replay of a game. Last time I checked, that's allowed. You're saying if someone mentions the word cheater in a video, it's against the EULA. lol, sorry, no.

You know when I started to look up cheats on Youtube? When I started running into them in-game, not because someone pointed out there were cheats.

All games have cheats, whether you like it or not. The only thing you can really do about it is create a team of people to investigate then punish them. Also adding in-game features for players to report cheaters(sorta like the Complain button, but which allows you to attach a replay or something) would help.

[–]CEOAntonYudintsev[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Exactly my point. He showed a replay, and in no way "broadcasted" a cheat.

C'mon. Video was even named "War Thunder cheat wallhack prove" or something like that.

All games have cheats, whether you like it or not. The only thing you can really do about it is create a team of people to investigate then punish them.

That was the thing we did. But it is not the ONLY thing that can be done.

There are no any cheats in AB (which is, you know, more popular than anything else). Because you are not getting anything significant by showing markers there.

So, there are things that can be done in that area.

[–]Ich bin ein YouTuber!Hirumaru 8ポイント9ポイント  (0子コメント)

You're right, it isn't a question. He wasn't advertising shit. You're getting your panties in a twist over a non-issue.

Sorry, but hacks exist for your game. They can adversely affect the experience of your players. Sometimes those players are YouTubers who make a video about their experience.

Get down off your cross, use the wood to build a bridge, and get the fuck over it.

[–]Nyito 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

I believe the fear here is that you'd overreach. There's a very fine line between violating a license with a monetized video and simply posting a video about it. Copyright striking the former, while possibly technically within your rights still reeks of censorship(even if technically correct). Copyright striking the latter I am quite sure, layman as I am, is not within the bounds of the system, and violates freedom of information and communication rights.

You can of course take punitive action to his game account, his posting privileges on the Live site, on your own official forums; these are realms where your company makes the rules, and in the end we have no say in how they are run. But reaching beyond that get very murky, especially with the way the copyright strike system on youtube is open to flagrant abuse, in exactly this way.

[–]Nyito 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Unfortunately it does have some freedom of speech implications.

I understand the distinction; it's not that he's showing off a cheat in his video, it's that he's accepting money; an advertised deal, which is in violation of your public license for monetized content.

This is not obvious to most people. That if he simply made a video showing off the cheats, you'd take no action. And that similarly, if it was an ad for a cheat in WT on a video not about WT, you'd have no grounds for action; it's this specific circumstance that makes it muddy.

I would suggest making an effort to explain this distinction, because most people, myself included, will not immediately make the distinction between 'paid advertisement in violation of public license' and 'censoring every video that shows off a cheat in our game on youtube', the latter of which would be a massive overreach and abuse of the copyright claim system on youtube.

Edit: Apparently I misunderstood some of this situation, and what PhlyDaily's video was actually about. Leaving what I wrote as strikethough as I think it's still a valid point, if not applicable to this situation.

[–]Forodrim 8ポイント9ポイント  (18子コメント)

Sorry, but that is a very shitty poll. Those two option are not two different options.

To surpress the video is a bad Idea. For a long time your stance has been "there are no cheats". Videos that show those cheats in action raise awareness and allow users to identify cheaters and report them. (And quite frankly it puts more pressure on you to do something against it)

To surrender to the cheaters and ruin RB mode is also not a good option. A lot of people love this mode for exactly the missing markers, and since you already killed SB mode, RB is all there is lest. Personally I will never touch AB mode for tanks and if you bring RB closer to that I'm gone.

Both options are not viable and and in no way connected. You are basically forcing us to choose a bad thing so in the end you can say "but the community decided". Your way of community management is still bad ... very bad. You are giving us a choice between the devil and the deep blue sea (between Hitler and Stalin; between Trump and Cruz .... )

[–]Waiting on the NAVYthegreatlordlucifer 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

more like between trump and Hitlary if you want to keep it even

[–]CEOAntonYudintsev[S] 2ポイント3ポイント  (15子コメント)

Do you have any other option? Besides obvious "do not fight with cheaters or cheat advertisement", let RB die.

For a long time your stance has been "there are no cheats".

I use "cheat" only as simplification. It is just same markers, as in AB, which is only "kinda" wallhack (and not 100%, only in certain conditions), and so in AB there are basically no cheats at all, the game design there is cheat-proof.

As for RB/SB, and that 3rd party markers will appear in the game, if we won't introduce it ourselves has been stated by me, Kirill and other developers even before CBT, during Alpha, when community insisted on removing markers in FRB mode (yes, there WERE markers in SB during Alpha, ONLY because of inevitable situation like this). So it is absurd to say that "our stance was there are no 3rd party markers" - our stance was the opposite, that it will be even before CBT of planes! Community insisted on removing markers anyway saying that we will have to fight with cheaters. Well, we will fight, but we can not fight just some of then, we need to be able to fight with advertising of it. Which we have all the rights to do, but we don't want this whole "Russian culture censorship" bullshit discussion.

Which is why we have this poll.

[–]Forodrim 3ポイント4ポイント  (6子コメント)

Do you have any other option? Besides obvious "do not fight with cheaters or cheat advertisement", let RB die.

how about, accept that people make videos about the fact that cheats exist and still work hard to counter them? To hush it up (i like our German "totschweigen" here) does not solve the problem. In the video I don't see any form of advertising.

The questions in the poll are not exklusive, this is not an "this or that" decision. yet your poll makes it sound like it is.

[–]CEOAntonYudintsev[S] 4ポイント5ポイント  (5子コメント)

how about, accept that people make videos about the fact that cheats exist and still work hard to counter them?

Well in that case we won't be able to win, regardless of how hard we work.

[–]Professional FreeabooBTechUnited 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

To put it much more politely, its quite similar to how antivirus development is. You can never win, only adapt and counter.

The only winning move is not to play.

[–]fatkidfallsdown 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

you can never win anton holy shit man do you not get that company's with 100 times your value don't win against people who create hacks never have and never will

[–]Forodrim 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Well in that case we won't be able to win, regardless of how hard we work.

if you think suppressing videos about the existence of cheats will help you, you are mistaken. Security through obscurity does not really work. And really, everyone who plays an online game knows that there will be cheats. Thats not new. Hitting those who expose the cheaters and show them in action and how they work will accomplish nothing.

[–]CEOAntonYudintsev[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

If you think suppressing videos about the existence of cheats will help you, you are mistaken.

From what I know (from publishers of ftp FPS games), it does help a lot, but may be you know better. I am glad you are more experienced in that matter.

Security through obscurity does not really work.

Security has nothing to do with it at all.

[–]fatkidfallsdown 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

the game design there is cheat-proof

Proof you and your fellows know nothing about security

[–]Kingperor 3ポイント4ポイント  (5子コメント)

So your logic here is trying to blindfold yourself thinking there's no one cheating. Flawless logic by a game company CEO.

[–]CEOAntonYudintsev[S] 1ポイント2ポイント  (3子コメント)

I am not sure if you read it or understand it.

[–]Kingperor 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

No , I think I completely understand what you trying to tell everyone. Its simple , you give everyone "cheat" , then nobody is cheating. If this isnt you trying to blindfold yourself and your team into thinking this could solve the cheating problems , well , I guess low populated game could make alot of cheater go away too.

[–]CEOAntonYudintsev[S] 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

Well, that's kinda how RB was before markers were removed.

[–]Kingperor 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

Like I said, nobody will cheat when nobody is playing the game. Guess that's a solution too , yea?

[–]Doctah_Whoopass 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

This is only clientside, which is really hard to detect. So far I haven't seen any cheat that actually alters the data heading to the server (eg. instakill, speed mods, invulnerability, no reload) only personal shit like aimbots (which are easier to catch due to their strikingly obvious nature) or markers.

[–]jdlsharkman 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

Holy shit, man. Gaijin has made some mistakes, but you have never fucked up as bad as this. Good luck weathering the storm.

[–]SpacemanSkiff 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

I've spent money on this game, and absolutely would spend more, but if markers come to RB ground, I will uninstall and never spend another cent on it.

[–]LawDog03 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

If you abuse the strike system, or kill RB like you did sim, Enjoy the war thunder hack advertisements you will see popping up.

[–]lordikioner 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

Markers will kill the mode for a lot of players. And maybe, just maybe, you introduce the system to protect players from such modifications? Not just punish youtubers.

[–]I'm not going down without a flightMoonsShadow 4ポイント5ポイント  (2子コメント)

Nice move. You just moved MagzTV away from WT.
If I were you I would delete this pole ASAP. Admit a bit of a mistake and move on fixing things that really matter.
Love your game but a move like this from the CEO is concerning.
You are officially in damage control mode now. Please do the right thing and keep this game alive.

[–]CEOAntonYudintsev[S] 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

OK.

[–]I'm not going down without a flightMoonsShadow 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

All the best! Thanks for responding.

[–]dualcalamity 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

With the markers off: It brings up the problem with map design, since many of the maps are "gladiator-arena designed" maps where you are forced to be confined in a specific zone, and the terrain of the maps walls every tank in, with a kill timer for any tank that goes outside the boundaries. This forces tanks that do not have the armor to take hits such as the comet, m18 hell cat, archer, and fixed gun tank destroyers to name a few... To face head on heavier tanks, or force them to hang back where the action is (which does not give enough RP if any), These tank shine in going fast, take a place to hide, and wait n' flank or snipe enemy tanks in cover.

Maps like Kuban, and Karelia DO have areas that these tanks to hide, like the boundary where there are trees to hide and because of their speed, and light weight allows them to take advantage of sloped terrain that heavier tanks could not traverse, and increases their survivability in face of heavier tanks. But because these areas have a Return to battle/kill timer, it forces these tanks to face head on. Not to mention these maps have alot of open areas where these tanks could not take cover.

And finally, with markers off, it reduces the accuracy of heavy bombers to bomb targets, but forces players to use rockets or dive bombers to compensate.

With markers on: It disallows any tank to hide in cover since spotting nearly nulls that ability which is a plus or a minus to TDs, light tanks with good armament. But it's still giving advantage to tanks with superior armor to rush the enemy, or tanks with superior penetration to spot and snipe from afar which is a given. This only punishes light tanks or medium tanks with weak armamet (to an extent). Another downside to this is the removal of immersion, but at the reward of having a slightly more fair gameplay. Since you can see tanks hiding in blind spots, and fits the gladiator-arena designed maps. Another downside is allowing heavy bombers to more accurately bomb targets because of this.

[–]Grozak 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

It's amazing to me that you think restricting information about a problem helps solve that problem. Communicating to your customers with respect issues with your product and the steps you are taking is the only way to build trust and respect. Hiding information from the playerbase regarding cheating only hurts the non-cheaters.

If you really cared about cheating in the game you'd address the cheating directly, by patching the holes and working on your detection and deterrence.

[–]chemicalex 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Guys pls upvote this so it stays at or near the top. This is the key reply to the post that puts everything in context for future readers. Also, Anton has raised the issue of people downvoting unpopular, but important messages on reddit as one of its issues. Try to keep that from happening.