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Real discussion regarding mod abuse (self.Seattle)
seattle-freeze が 10時間前 * 投稿
残りのコメントをみる →
[–]derrickito1Green Lake 30ポイント31ポイント32ポイント 9時間前 (54子コメント)
thank you for your post!
but please seriously address the main over arching theme here in this thread: careless being removed as a moderator.
[–]notcaffeinefree 19ポイント20ポイント21ポイント 9時間前 (5子コメント)
FYI, I'm pretty sure /u/Hibernator is the only mod that can actually remove careless because of the mod hierarchy and he hasn't been active in a year. The other option would be to have him step down which I doubt will happen.
I'd be surprised if admins got involved because they aren't exactly breaking any rules.
[–]nishiokaDes Moines 15ポイント16ポイント17ポイント 9時間前 (4子コメント)
FYI, I'm pretty sure /u/Hibernator is the only mod that can actually remove careless because of the mod hierarchy and he hasn't been active in a year.
If that's the case, I'd like to see a new overlord installed. Having a dormant account sitting on top of everything like that is a risk to this sub.
[–]zomboiFirst Hill 8ポイント9ポイント10ポイント 8時間前 (3子コメント)
the admins have set up the mod squatting rules as that the reddit account has to be logged in every 60(?) days, the reddit user doesn't have to do any modding actions, just have to log into their reddit account.
The admins won't involve themselves into a moderation matter unless it impedes a default and/or breaks one of reddit's site-wide rules and/or the mod financially benefits from moderation.
[–]notcaffeinefree 6ポイント7ポイント8ポイント 8時間前 (0子コメント)
/r/wow was also exception. Basically if it's a very popular sub and one person locks the entire thing down because they have a personal issue, then the admins could step in.
[–]nishiokaDes Moines 2ポイント3ポイント4ポイント 8時間前 (1子コメント)
Got it - sounds reasonable enough. I've never run a sub so I don't see what you guys are seeing behind the curtain. Thanks for the explanation.
[–]zomboiFirst Hill -1ポイント0ポイント1ポイント 8時間前 (0子コメント)
it's really boring behind the curtain. Almost all of my modding is removing/approving posts.
[+]kcrobinsonMadrona スコアが基準値未満のコメント-13ポイント-12ポイント-11ポイント 9時間前 (47子コメント)
I don't support it. I think people advocating for that don't have any grounded reason for doing so
[–]derrickito1Green Lake 25ポイント26ポイント27ポイント 9時間前 (17子コメント)
i think you just need to read his posts, see how he interacts with people, see how he talks to people, and see how much he infuriates people and the community to understand advocating for removing him as a moderator.
i don't think that's an ungrounded opinion to have at all. people are helpless to affect change in leadership around here and feel subjugated and heeled by his behavior.
i also think that the system should be left to do more of what the system was designed to do. let users upvote and downvote content. don't allow someone to make up and execute rules on a whim. allow users to dictate what floats and what sinks. mods hand off a bit.
[–]kcrobinsonMadrona -3ポイント-2ポイント-1ポイント 8時間前 (16子コメント)
I hear the "hands-off" argument frequently. I personally don't believe that it works.
Here's the thing I think you should understand: Careless has been consistently abused for his work far far more than I have ever been close to being. Sometimes I think he's too short with people, but it's because he now feels that he has to be defensive against everything. The work he does for this sub is still invaluable in ways that is hard to describe to the community who doesn't see all the behind the scenes work.
[–]seattle-freeze[S] 24ポイント25ポイント26ポイント 8時間前 (0子コメント)
sounds like /u/careless needs to take a break from being a mod if they can't separate concerns.
[–]IDoDash 11ポイント12ポイント13ポイント 7時間前* (10子コメント)
I'm going to take a page out of Careless' book and say "prove it". If the hands-off approach doesn't work, why don't the mods take several big steps back for 6 months and let the sub either collapse into ruin or...not.
(Actually, if I really wanted to channel Careless here, I would say something along the lines of "Prove it. I dare you, bud. Oh you can't huh? That's what I thought. Now excuse me while I go back to my day job of curing the world of cancers like you fucking thankless people." But that would be unfair now, wouldn't it? "SIGH")
EDIT: Obligatory but sincere gold appreciation edit.
[–]kcrobinsonMadrona -1ポイント0ポイント1ポイント 7時間前 (7子コメント)
Sometimes I wish we could explore an alternate history of what /r/Seattle would be like without mods. I believe that it would be a wasteland, and I'm not willing to let that happen to this place. I like it too much.
[–]IDoDash 11ポイント12ポイント13ポイント 7時間前* (0子コメント)
If you like it as much as you say you do, then I sincerely hope you and the rest of the mod team take a few deep breaths and really digest what is being said in this and similar threads. Please find a way forward that begins to address what I think are very real concerns of a large number of users here.
Will Careless be removed as a Mod? Probably not, and I'm not sure that extreme action is even the 'right thing' to pursue anyway. But we can't keep going down this road with him either.
EDIT: Jesus, the gold is thick in here today.
[–]ClearGnome 6ポイント7ポイント8ポイント 6時間前 (0子コメント)
Many other subreddits have explored "limited moderation" periods, where the moderation is relaxed for a pre-defined period of time (say, a week). At the end of that period, the users and moderators discus what worked well and what didn't.
Certainly that's something we could try here.
[–]kduffygreavesBallard 10ポイント11ポイント12ポイント 6時間前 (3子コメント)
I think you overestimate your value.
[–]kcrobinsonMadrona -1ポイント0ポイント1ポイント 6時間前 (2子コメント)
Eh, maybe. But like I said, I take pride in my work here.
[–]IDoDash 7ポイント8ポイント9ポイント 6時間前 (0子コメント)
That's interesting because, before today, I've never seen your presence as an active Mod in this sub before. Maybe that's part of the problem: Careless spends so much time actively modding the sub, that his presence is all we see. No wonder he takes so much heat - if you maintain high visibility like that, you're going to catch a bunch of shit, whether you deserve it or not.
Sounds to me like the Mod team needs to spread the workload a bit more. And if you don't have time and have been relying on Careless to take up the slack, then do him (and everyone else) a favor and bring more mods on board to help out.
[–]carelessNorth Capitol Hill -2ポイント-1ポイント0ポイント 2時間前 (1子コメント)
Wow, that's really shitty.
[–]IDoDash 3ポイント4ポイント5ポイント 2時間前 (0子コメント)
Maybe shitty, but not entirely untrue. Here is an example from the last week where you've responded to a user in this very way. I quote:
Bwa ha ha ha ha ha! How's that tinfoil hat sitting, bub? Go on, tell me which post(s) we've been paid to not remove, I DARE YA!
Bwa ha ha ha ha ha! How's that tinfoil hat sitting, bub?
Go on, tell me which post(s) we've been paid to not remove, I DARE YA!
and
Go on, see if you can come up with anything concrete. I dare ya.
Or how about this one, from earlier in this thread:
Happy to hear your feedback, even though I'm super busy with real life stuff today, and you're name-calling.
It took me less than 5 minutes to reference those comments, because there are a bunch just like them.
[–]drrew76 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 7時間前 (0子コメント)
If you have to add a 'but' to explain why anyone is acting in a manner that they shouldn't, then it just comes off as a silly excuse.
I don't really have strong opinions either way, but it appears there's at least a sizable number of people that find this mod to be an asshole, and if that's the case, they probably shouldn't be a mod anymore.
[–]IDoDash 37ポイント38ポイント39ポイント 9時間前* (17子コメント)
It's because of the sarcastic and condescending tone he/she uses when interacting with members. Your post above is appreciated because you maintained a level head and communicated your position without sarcasm, condescension, and general rudeness which is so often present in Careless's interactions. Responding in a combative manner, daring people to prove him wrong or come up with examples, and then berating them verbally when they can't - comments like these were all over the now-deleted thread from yesterday.
I have never PERSONALLY had those comments from Careless aimed at me, but quite frankly it's because I am afraid of interacting with him in any way because I could be banned or berated in the sub. Do you want members afraid of contributing to the community? Because that is how I have felt at times. I was extremely disappointed in the comments Careless contributed yesterday, both when speaking as an official mod and when not.
Careless should be on a Performance Improvement Plan, just like any other 'employee' with an attitude problem.
EDIT: You rich, gold giving fuckers...thanks!
[+]kcrobinsonMadrona スコアが基準値未満のコメント-26ポイント-25ポイント-24ポイント 8時間前 (16子コメント)
Found the Amazon employee!
If we were paid for our work, or if communicating with the public was more than a tiny portion of the overall work that being a mod entails, I could possibly agree with you.
As it is, I think he does a relatively good job considering the abuse that he has put up with over the years.
[–]IDoDash 12ポイント13ポイント14ポイント 8時間前 (9子コメント)
I actually don't work at Amazon (anymore). But PIPs have been a part of all the organizations I have ever worked for.
I do agree with you that Careless (and mods in general) put up with a LOT of abuse. But if you can't maintain a level head and treat users with respect EVEN IF they don't show you that respect in return, maybe modding isn't the thing for you.
[+]carelessNorth Capitol Hill スコアが基準値未満のコメント-7ポイント-6ポイント-5ポイント 3時間前 (8子コメント)
Today, my business partners and I started receiving harassing phone calls. Should that be okay?
I bring it up not for sympathy, but to point out what the internet hate machine is like; these are folks who delight in posting my full name, the make and model of the car I drive, my home address, my employer's phone number.
Now just think; it takes exactly one emotionally or mentally ill person who takes reddit entirely too seriously to commit physical violence on my person because these folks decided it was good fun to post this info.
The folks on that other subreddit has been posting my personal information for years. I have lost count of the number of times the admins have had to remove crap from it.
On this thread alone, over 10 comments were removed with my personal info. Great folks, huh?
[–]pivolover 4ポイント5ポイント6ポイント 2時間前 (2子コメント)
Of course not. And yet when someone expressed actual concern for you, you were dismissive and asked them if they had anything real to discuss.
So here's your choice: either you view this as a serious threat to you (and you should call the police) and people expressing concern for you are legit...or you aren't actually concerned and are using this as a crutch and then being sarcastic to people being sincerely concerned about your well-being.
But here's a question: why do you want to overlord over a community that doesn't want you? Explain why that's not a power trip.
[+]carelessNorth Capitol Hill スコアが基準値未満のコメント-6ポイント-5ポイント-4ポイント 2時間前 (1子コメント)
The admins have taken action on the offending accounts.
I do view it as a serious threat. I have received death threats in PM. I don't call the police because the reddit admins have dealt with the users and I'm fairly certain the SPD has better things to do. Believe me, if there was a way to find the people doing this shit and bring them to justice, I'd be all for it.
But here's a question: why do you want to overlord over a community that doesn't want you?
There are over 80,000 reddit accounts subscribed to this subreddit. And there are others that don't have accounts that view it. Your question has an assumption that the people brigading this thread are representative of the community as a whole. They are not. This thread was linked at least four times from two different subs.
There are a bunch of people angry that they were banned from /r/Seattle; but they were banned for good reason. I'm glad they are not permitted here; it makes the community a better place not to have people being horrid to each other. Unfortunately they've banded together in a subreddit to brigade and harass me; I can't do anything about that.
With regard to the user who apparently expressed actual concern for me - that's the same user who is completely convinced, despite the lack of anything resembling evidence that myself and the other mods are getting paid to remove or keep posts on /r/Seattle. In other words, a complete crank. So yes, I was sarcastic to that user. I mean - go take a look at the user's posts and tell me if they are rational.
This is also the same user who doesn't believe me that my personal info has been posted to a subreddit they participate in. In other words, this user is full of it.
[–]pivolover 4ポイント5ポイント6ポイント 2時間前 (0子コメント)
It's unseemly to call posters here "complete cranks." You shoudl resign your post. Please just stop. I'm a regular poster here, a reasonable person with a professional job, and I think you're totally arbitrary and unnecessarily personal.
That type of behavior towards you is absolutely unacceptable, and I can't imagine how scary those situations like that would be - I'm 100% on your side in that respect.
This comment here is calm, reasonable, rational and the perfect example of an appropriate response from you on this subject. But I think if you take a step back, you would be able to admit that you can get a little hot-headed and short tempered at times. If someone is being a total jackass to you, it's pretty obvious to see. Just let their actions speak for themselves. I think you take unnecessary additional heat because you often stoop to their level. You've heard the cliche saying "Don't wrestle in the mud with pigs - you both get dirty, but the pig likes it"? Well if someone is being an ass (which is wrong), and you respond to them like an ass too...well, unfortunately you come out looking like the bigger ass because you (as the mod) are supposed to be the better person.
Taking the high road isn't easy, but in this instance I think it's really really necessary.
I hope things get better for everyone, and the personal harassment of you stops.
[–][削除されました] 2時間前 (2子コメント)
[deleted]
[+]carelessNorth Capitol Hill スコアが基準値未満のコメント-7ポイント-6ポイント-5ポイント 2時間前 (1子コメント)
I refuse to let these people bully me.
[–]ScammerAdamHenderson -2ポイント-1ポイント0ポイント 1時間前 (0子コメント)
I'm going to show you some real bullying when the only thing that comes up on google when your name is searched is scam reports you fucking pussy. Hope /r/seattle was worth losing $$$
[–]DanTheManMariners 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 2時間前 (0子コメント)
What did they say in the harassing phone calls?
[–]kduffygreavesBallard 17ポイント18ポイント19ポイント 8時間前 (5子コメント)
I'm confused why this community can't self-determine who moderates it. We don't want /u/careless and I'm willing to bet there are one or two community members who will step up and do the work /u/careless was doing without his awful community interaction.
[+]kcrobinsonMadrona スコアが基準値未満のコメント-7ポイント-6ポイント-5ポイント 8時間前 (4子コメント)
There are over 80,000 subscribers here so be careful when you say "we". In my experience, the majority of people I have interacted with are fine with how this place has been modded.
Edit: 80k not 800k oops. My ego was inflated there for a second
[–]kduffygreavesBallard 9ポイント10ポイント11ポイント 8時間前 (2子コメント)
If you're going to warn me about generalizations, it'd help you not to make one yourself in the next sentence. Why does your experience that "most" people are fine with the modding trump my conclusion that this community overwhelming wants /u/careless removed?
[–]kcrobinsonMadrona -2ポイント-1ポイント0ポイント 7時間前 (1子コメント)
It's just my experience. I interact with the community regularly and I hear far more positive feedback about how /r/Seattle is modded. Meta posts like this one are rare, are always rooted in some unfortunate controversial position that the mods had to take, and seem to always be filled with the same vocal minority of users.
[–]guga31bb -1ポイント0ポイント1ポイント 4時間前 (0子コメント)
This happens depressingly often in large subs, regardless of how good the mods are. /r/nfl's mods are some of the best on reddit but even they have to deal with a witch hunt every few months.
You guys are doing fine. Although it sounds like you could use more mods if only 3 are active.
[–]Harvey_Seattle 15ポイント16ポイント17ポイント 9時間前 (1子コメント)
Maybe we should get rid of more than one MOD....
[–]GoldenIvanFirst Hill 4ポイント5ポイント6ポイント 8時間前 (0子コメント)
exactly
[–]JohnStamosBRAHCapitol Hill 8ポイント9ポイント10ポイント 8時間前 (7子コメント)
You don't think the endless amount of posts going on for years complaining about his attitude, policies, and actions is enough? He's awful, and the prolonged community response is evidence of it.
[–]kcrobinsonMadrona 2ポイント3ポイント4ポイント 7時間前 (6子コメント)
Here's what I think:
The meta post before this was up and everyone was happy. Careless was there long long before I was aware that the post even existed. He was responding to everyone and explaining the rules that led to the "witch hunting" post being removed. People seemed satisfied.
Then buttons started getting pressed and Careless responded to rudeness with rudeness. Then OP posted the other subreddit causing the post to be completely removed. If OP hadn't done that, then we wouldn't be here in this post. Everyone would have just moved on.
But now everyone wants to talk about 2 things, Careless' attitude and Careless' policies. But by that, they just mean they don't like Careless' attitude because the rest of the mods support and implement those policies but only Careless gets blamed for them. Well I'm sorry that Careless isn't as polite and level headed as you would like. Putting up with abuse is a requirement to be a mod. Putting up with it laying down is not.
[–]seattle-freeze[S] 12ポイント13ポイント14ポイント 7時間前 (0子コメント)
Putting up with abuse is a requirement to be a mod
it doesn't seem like he puts up with it, but rather engages in it. putting up with it would imply they didn't engage in it. Much like a parent puts up with a child and doesn't act childish.
[–]JohnStamosBRAHCapitol Hill 11ポイント12ポイント13ポイント 7時間前 (4子コメント)
A) You're a new mod here, so you may not be aware that this is nowhere near the first time we've all had this discussion. Multiple times a year, going back probably 3-4 years, and the same content/discussion/problems every. single. time. And nothing has changed.
2) If you can't be a polite and rational mod, then you don't deserve to be a mod. I've been a mod for /r/browns for 4+years which is full of raging angry drunks suffering from losses every single week (and I love them all to death), so I've had my fair share of tests. Escalating things and being crass makes issues 10x worse. You must take this like you would a job and be professional. Careless would be fired if he acted the way he does in an office.
[–]kcrobinsonMadrona 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 7時間前 (3子コメント)
I've been closely involved with all of the controversies heading back those many years. It's what prompted me to apply to be a mod. Specifically, it was the Greenwald event posting that I remember the most. As much as I disagreed with Careless back then, I now understand why he did it, and I think the community would have gotten behind him if he had explained himself better.
But I do not go so far as to say that he does not deserve to be a mod. He is the hardest working of all of us, and it would be very tough on all of us if he wasn't doing everything that he did.
[–]JohnStamosBRAHCapitol Hill 5ポイント6ポイント7ポイント 7時間前 (2子コメント)
So then what's your explanation for the endless amount of controversies in this subreddit? Well run subs do not have these issues. You think it's just a fluke or something?
[–]kcrobinsonMadrona 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 7時間前 (1子コメント)
It probably just comes down to communication. It could be better.
[–]JohnStamosBRAHCapitol Hill 8ポイント9ポイント10ポイント 7時間前 (0子コメント)
Bro, please don't take this the wrong way, but you're in over your head if you think communication is the only problem.
[–]KazanSnohomish County 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 3時間前 (0子コメント)
He's incredibly biased in applying the rules, and abusive to users in the sub.
π Rendered by PID 28375 on app-337 at 2016-05-21 06:23:15.988826+00:00 running fd4d753 country code: JP.
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[–]derrickito1Green Lake 30ポイント31ポイント32ポイント (54子コメント)
[–]notcaffeinefree 19ポイント20ポイント21ポイント (5子コメント)
[–]nishiokaDes Moines 15ポイント16ポイント17ポイント (4子コメント)
[–]zomboiFirst Hill 8ポイント9ポイント10ポイント (3子コメント)
[–]notcaffeinefree 6ポイント7ポイント8ポイント (0子コメント)
[–]nishiokaDes Moines 2ポイント3ポイント4ポイント (1子コメント)
[–]zomboiFirst Hill -1ポイント0ポイント1ポイント (0子コメント)
[+]kcrobinsonMadrona スコアが基準値未満のコメント-13ポイント-12ポイント-11ポイント (47子コメント)
[–]derrickito1Green Lake 25ポイント26ポイント27ポイント (17子コメント)
[–]kcrobinsonMadrona -3ポイント-2ポイント-1ポイント (16子コメント)
[–]seattle-freeze[S] 24ポイント25ポイント26ポイント (0子コメント)
[–]IDoDash 11ポイント12ポイント13ポイント (10子コメント)
[–]kcrobinsonMadrona -1ポイント0ポイント1ポイント (7子コメント)
[–]IDoDash 11ポイント12ポイント13ポイント (0子コメント)
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[–]kduffygreavesBallard 10ポイント11ポイント12ポイント (3子コメント)
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[–]IDoDash 7ポイント8ポイント9ポイント (0子コメント)
[–]carelessNorth Capitol Hill -2ポイント-1ポイント0ポイント (1子コメント)
[–]IDoDash 3ポイント4ポイント5ポイント (0子コメント)
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[+]kcrobinsonMadrona スコアが基準値未満のコメント-26ポイント-25ポイント-24ポイント (16子コメント)
[–]IDoDash 12ポイント13ポイント14ポイント (9子コメント)
[+]carelessNorth Capitol Hill スコアが基準値未満のコメント-7ポイント-6ポイント-5ポイント (8子コメント)
[–]pivolover 4ポイント5ポイント6ポイント (2子コメント)
[+]carelessNorth Capitol Hill スコアが基準値未満のコメント-6ポイント-5ポイント-4ポイント (1子コメント)
[–]pivolover 4ポイント5ポイント6ポイント (0子コメント)
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[+]carelessNorth Capitol Hill スコアが基準値未満のコメント-7ポイント-6ポイント-5ポイント (1子コメント)
[–]ScammerAdamHenderson -2ポイント-1ポイント0ポイント (0子コメント)
[–]DanTheManMariners 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント (0子コメント)
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[+]kcrobinsonMadrona スコアが基準値未満のコメント-7ポイント-6ポイント-5ポイント (4子コメント)
[–]kduffygreavesBallard 9ポイント10ポイント11ポイント (2子コメント)
[–]kcrobinsonMadrona -2ポイント-1ポイント0ポイント (1子コメント)
[–]guga31bb -1ポイント0ポイント1ポイント (0子コメント)
[–]Harvey_Seattle 15ポイント16ポイント17ポイント (1子コメント)
[–]GoldenIvanFirst Hill 4ポイント5ポイント6ポイント (0子コメント)
[–]JohnStamosBRAHCapitol Hill 8ポイント9ポイント10ポイント (7子コメント)
[–]kcrobinsonMadrona 2ポイント3ポイント4ポイント (6子コメント)
[–]seattle-freeze[S] 12ポイント13ポイント14ポイント (0子コメント)
[–]JohnStamosBRAHCapitol Hill 11ポイント12ポイント13ポイント (4子コメント)
[–]kcrobinsonMadrona 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント (3子コメント)
[–]JohnStamosBRAHCapitol Hill 5ポイント6ポイント7ポイント (2子コメント)
[–]kcrobinsonMadrona 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント (1子コメント)
[–]JohnStamosBRAHCapitol Hill 8ポイント9ポイント10ポイント (0子コメント)
[–]KazanSnohomish County 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント (0子コメント)