上位 200 件のコメント表示する 500

[–]MeisterD2 1062ポイント1063ポイント  (250子コメント)

To quote Palmer and a response from /r/vive

If customers buy a game from us, I don't care if they mod it to run on whatever they want. As I have said a million times (and counter to the current circlejerk), our goal is not to profit by locking people to only our hardware - if it was, why in the world would we be supporting GearVR and talking with other headset makers? The software we create through Oculus Studios (using a mix of internal and external developers) are exclusive to the Oculus platform, not the Rift itself.

To which the vive guy replied:

That was a whole 5 months ago, and in VR 5 months might as well be a couple years. Things change. /s


I'm not affected by this, because I can workaround by using my DK2 to bypass the check, but this is a really stupid move by Oculus. They are going to walled garden their store into an early grave. Why would I ever buy a game on Oculus Home over Steam? One doesn't care how many times I switch my headset of choice, and the other locks me out if I drift away.

No go.

I don't think that Palmer is a fan of any of this behavior, but at this point he doesn't have the power to stop it.

[–]Groundpenguin 551ポイント552ポイント  (208子コメント)

Sounds like facebook want oculus to be the apple of the VR world.

[–]DrBoomkin 372ポイント373ポイント  (146子コメント)

That's completely obvious if you look at the Oculus website, their advertising, and their entire "style". They are obviously trying to copy Apple.

[–]Coutcha 346ポイント347ポイント  (124子コメント)

And we all know gamers are big fans of apple so it will all work in the end...

[–]jagajaazzist 232ポイント233ポイント  (121子コメント)

They don't want gamers, they want everyone.

[–]bundle-of-stix 194ポイント195ポイント  (96子コメント)

Not gonna happen at that price point. Unless Sony completely screws up PSVR, that's going to be the "everyone" VR unit w/ Oculus/Vive being the "premium" variants.

[–]ComMcNeil 86ポイント87ポイント  (84子コメント)

Not gonna happen at that price point.

I also thought that about iPhones, but look at them now...

[–]bundle-of-stix 142ポイント143ポイント  (62子コメント)

I think there's a big difference in a subsidized piece of hardware that everyone needs(phone) vs. a gaming accessory.

Realistically, people almost never pay full price for a phone anymore. The same isn't necessarily true of the VR units.

[–]bluewolf37 [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

Unless you buy used you are always paying full price for a new phone it's just not in one bill.
They have inflated prices to cover the cost which is one of the reasons why they give out two year contracts (it use to be one year when phones were cheap). They want to make sure they get the money for the phone. The customer also use to be able to get their bill lowered after the contract ended. But the greedy SOB's changed that so they make more money.

The worst thing is i can't get a new phone with a new contract unless i want to get my unlimited data taken away.

[–]otatop 40ポイント41ポイント  (14子コメント)

Realistically, people almost never pay full price for a phone anymore.

The 4 main US cell providers stopped subsidizing phones last year, they just break up the full purchase price into monthly payments throughout your contract.

[–]Manic020 [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

Most people don't care because the payment plan + a new phone plan are almost the same price anyway. I think mine would have been a $5 increase if I wasn't grandfathered into a subsidized plan.

[–]theywouldnotstand [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Did the other carriers do away with annual contracts?

Because otherwise, they didn't actually change anything, they just made it more transparent. (Subsidized phone prices usually required a 1 or 2 year contract--that amount of profit from that length of service was calculated to make up the lost money on the phone and then some)

[–]Popotuni [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

And as a bonus point, your payments never go down, even after the phone is paid for!

[–]Krayzed896 [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

And discount your plan so it's the same price. So your point has no point.

[–]ollydzi [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

a gaming accessory.

Sure, that's the primary use now. But as VR is further integrated, maybe 2-3 hardware iterations down the line, VR can be applied in many other industries. Architecture, Tours (real estate, car, etc...), Education (astronomy, oceanography, etc...), Healthcare (mental disorders, phobias, etc...), Adult Entertainment (that's actually starting up in parallel w/gaming), and many others.

[–]javitogomezzzz [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

maybe 2-3 hardware iterations down the line

Which is exactly the problem. With their current course of action in 2-3 generations occulus will be already dead

[–]TouchMyBox 8ポイント9ポイント  (4子コメント)

VR might be seen as a "need" similar to how a television is seen as a "need". Absolutely not a need, but a staple of every modern household and is more or less required to stay culturally relevant. Whenever you hear Zuckerberg talk about oculus to investors, he's definitely not selling "a gaming accessory". It could fail, of course, but being purely a gaming accessory is not the goal.

[–]Daiwon [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

Well in that case it's going to be a need in maybe 10 years, and if this keeps going people just aren't going to buy any rifts.

At least I hope they don't, ocubook don't deserve anyone's money right now.

[–]bobo1618 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Yeeeah, I'm sure Sony will want to make PSVR as accessible as possible. They definitely won't want to lock it to the PS4 with big, attractive package deals. Nope, almost definitely sure that won't happen.

[–]acosmichippo [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

The problem is gamers are the key to everyone.

Firstly, gamers are the only ones right now who have computers powerful enough to run VR.

Second, gamers are the only ones who will fund bleeding edge tech like this.

Third, the only non-gaming apps I've seen are a couple chatroom apps and virtual desktop apps. Hardly anything worth $600 for the headset PLUS another ~$300-$1000 for a PC to push it.

Only when the tech survives long enough to solve these challenges will "everyone" want a VR headset.

[–]Aqui87 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

hm I think facebook has got enough money to fund this through the step you're talking about

[–]Zaydene [スコア非表示]  (10子コメント)

Hope Carmack is getting paid out the ass, a part of me wants to believe that he badly wants to slap the people in charge of making these decisions and tell them how stupid they are.

[–]linknewtab [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Carmack is working almost exclusively on GearVR, I wouldn't be surprised if he joins Samsung sooner or later to make it official.

[–]savage_as_vandal [スコア非表示]  (8子コメント)

Pretty weird world we live in where the new id releases a good Doom game in 2016 and Carmack is off schlepping for Facebook and Oculus.

Now if Romero releases a good game soon this is truly the bizzaro universe.

[–]Holysinz [スコア非表示]  (7子コメント)

Carmack is a logic programmer. Video games are well beneath him. In the 90s game engines were amazing pieces of technology for the time and had a lot of tough challenges to solve, now most of the work is in content creation and art shit.

[–]h0bb1tm1ndtr1x [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Plus Zuckerfuck tried his best to look and act like Steve Jobs at their conferences originally.

[–]siphillis 70ポイント71ポイント  (10子コメント)

Difference is, Apple knows exactly when to wall up their garden, and how tall to build the walls. Facebook is doing a power-grab with almost zero leverage.

[–]TouchMyBox 42ポイント43ポイント  (4子コメント)

It's like if Apple came out with the iPhone and built their walls real high when Android was already out and even more awesome. Apple was successful in what they did because Android was absolute garbage for a few years after the fact.

[–]siphillis [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

Exactly. They read the (lack of) competition and acted accordingly. The iPod had the exact opposite strategy, playing friendly with Windows to increase consumer base.

[–]stevedry [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Sounds like they want to start playing hardball with Valve, which isn't such a good idea considering their whole "Steam" thing -- perhaps you've all heard of it.

[–]MxM111 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

If you buy software on Steam using Apple computer, there is no problem later to use that software on Windows.

[–]Vinator [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

The last time I said that I got downvoted to shit, but again I am right. This kind of stuff is happening a lot recently, it's like people are getting more and more blind and don't want think about any other view than theirs.

[–]amishrefugee 14ポイント15ポイント  (34子コメント)

The best defense for this I can think of is that there is probably a giant sign in the middle of Oculus HQ that says "If VR is a gimmick, VR is dead"

That's the eternal problem right now. Steam has tons of VR content, but almost all of it is bullshitty demos and gimmicks, and the experience is a little rough around the edges. Oculus is throwing lots of money into developing better VR software/experiences and trying to make the most polished product possible. I can appreciate that despite the very obvious (OP) shitty things they're doing now to maintain that tactic.

As much as I hate Apple's approach to things, they are the reason the vast majority of people (in the US at least) own a smart phone and think it's a modern necessity rather than a needless luxury.

[–]redxdev 33ポイント34ポイント  (0子コメント)

That has little to do with blocking hardware, though. I can understand curating a storefront. That isn't the issue here, the issue is they've blocked third party devices despite saying they wouldn't.

[–]DarQraven [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

I would agree with this if it weren't that they don't seem interested in pushing VR past a gimmick at all.

This is a company whose spokesperson and founder was quoted saying "regular controllers are pretty shitty for VR", then releases the Rift with a bundled regular controller. Whose grand vision for VR is apparently "regular games + 3d vision" and has a launch lineup to match.

A company who is fully aware of the benefits of full-room, 360 degree tracking and who has a competitor with just that on the market already, and still doesn't support and actively discourages developers from making anything more than 180-degree, front-facing experiences.

A company who won't allow you to sell things that don't use their proprietary SDK, forcing developers to make a choice between using the crossplatform option (OpenVR) or selling on Oculus's store.

A company who would rather keep the Rift NDAs and review embargos up until launch day than give their preorder customers a chance to see what they're paying for. At almost double the price they hinted at, mind you.

And in the most recent turn of events, a company who would rather have people not buy their developers products in their store than buy them with the "wrong" headset. Though I have no doubt there'll be some great PR response out there before the night falls. Just like there was all those other times.

For a company that was so vocal about not poisoning the VR well, they seem to be doing an awful lot of it. Oculus is not interested in the well-being of VR anymore. They are interested in the well-being of their version of VR. What's best for us as users is secondary. My suspicion is that they'll gladly take the whole medium down with them if they have to.

As a consumer, I cannot justify supporting them with my money. As a developer, I've already given up on Oculus home and just develop for OpenVR and sell what I want, wherever the hell I want.

[–]Kered13 20ポイント21ポイント  (12子コメント)

As much as I hate Apple's approach to things, they are the reason the vast majority of people (in the US at least) own a smart phone and think it's a modern necessity rather than a needless luxury.

I think that's overselling it. We already had Blackberries, they were high end and focused on business users, but I think it was pretty inevitable that someone would make a consumer grade smartphone.

[–]RscMrF 9ポイント10ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yeah, Apple jumped in at a very opportune time and offered an admittedly superior product at the time. But portable pint sized computers were inevitable as soon as the country/world became obsessed with the internet, justifiably so.

Phones were getting smarter and MP3 players were replacing diskmans, the writing was on the wall for those with the vision to see it.

[–]XANi_ 7ポイント8ポイント  (1子コメント)

Funnily enough most "content-filled" vr experiences right now are sims that are almost exclusively sittng VR

[–]DrBoomkin 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

That's simply because sims are one of the few experiences that can be ported to VR, without having any locomotion issues.

[–]mmarkklar [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

The iPhone changed a lot, but smartphones were making their way to consumers before Apple. Around the time the iPhone was released, RIM had just launched the Blackberry Pearl series, and Palm was about to release the Palm Centro. Samsung, LG, and HTC were making various Windows Mobile phones targeted at average users, and Android was just around the corner, though at the time it's UI and input methods were more like Blackberry than what we have now.

[–]ostermei 66ポイント67ポイント  (11子コメント)

this is a really stupid move by Oculus

Sounds about par for the course at this point. Seems like every time I turn around there's another story about them shooting themselves in the foot one way or another lately.

[–]SuperSheep3000 [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

So fuck the Rift then? Sounds like they are trying to corner the whole market instead of having it all open.

[–]GamerToons [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Yes. Then again, no one should have trusted it anyways.

[–]muchcharles 31ポイント32ポイント  (2子コメント)

Less than a month ago he reiterated, implied "don't condone" just meant "don't support" and implied they wouldnt do anything to stop it intentionally:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Vive/comments/4etddh/this_is_a_hack_and_we_dont_condone_it_oculus_on/d24srvs?context=1

[–]froop 29ポイント30ポイント  (2子コメント)

I remember posting in a /r/oculus thread that it was going to be a walled garden and why, and everyone thought I was retarded. Palmer himself responded to say I was wrong. And here we are. Guess I was right all along.

Here is that post: https://www.reddit.com/r/oculus/comments/2zpyub/valkyrie_is_exclusive_on_the_oculus/cplmuo6

Unfortunately I deleted my comments (I purge my post history every once in a while) but Palmer's responses are there. Pretty much every deleted comment in that thread is me.

[–]flappers87 [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

Say what you want about Palmer, but this isn't the first time he's gone back on his word, and I'm sure it won't be the last.

People need to stop seeing these business men as normal consumers... because they are not. They are there to make money, so if that means saying something at one point to hype up there product... but then do the opposite on release to reap the benefit of the fake hype, then so be it.

We've seen it far too many times, not just with Oculus but with major game publishers too

[–]DoubleDongerino [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

I don't think that Palmer is a fan of any of this behavior, but at this point he doesn't have the power to stop it.

He doesn't have the power to stop it but he sure as hell could retract his support for Oculus's unethical behavior by cutting his ties with the company and publicly speaking out against practices he finds unacceptable. But we already know he doesn't give a shit about things like honesty and integrity because he sold out to Facebook. I really don't understand why Palmer gets brought into the conversation every time Oculus does something bad; dragging his name through mud doesn't have any effect because it's already dirty as fuck.

[–]Jellyfish_McSaveloy [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

In defence of Palmer, I think the vast majority of people would throw away their integrity for $2 billion.

[–]Holysinz [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

Oculus got 2b collectively. Palmer has shares of that but a so did a lot of the other core team members. Palmer still got paid but I doubt he cleared even 1b.

[–]ThunderKnight 601ポイント602ポイント  (132子コメント)

Image if Nvidia and AMD made games exclusive to their hardware?. Thinking about it gives me headache. This feels the same way.

[–]kayonesoft 323ポイント324ポイント  (60子コメント)

Imagine if your Playstation only worked on Sony branded televisions. Now imagine how fast Xbox would overtake them in the home console market.

[–]Kered13 94ポイント95ポイント  (46子コメント)

And this is why I won't buy a Gsync/Freesync monitor yet. I'm not going to buy a monitor that ties me to a graphics card, I'm going to wait until there is a standard.

[–]spazturtle [スコア非表示]  (11子コメント)

Freesync is the VESA standard and is not tired to any vendor.

[–]Anarch157a [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

In practice it is. Nvidia still doesn't support it. Until it does, Freesync monitors are "tied" to AMD cards.

[–]CJ_Guns [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

That's Nvidia's problem, as they could switch to it easily. AMD is willing to make FreeSync and other things like TressFX open, but Nvidia still won't give up PhysX.

[–]Stingray88 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

That's Nvidia's problem

No, it's our problem actually.

Nvidia is having no problem selling Gsync monitors at a jacked up price.

[–]decross20 58ポイント59ポイント  (29子コメント)

I don't know a lot about monitors and stuff but isn't freesync open source? I thought I heard that nvidia gpus would be able to use freesync eventually while Gsync is completely closed.

[–]iAnonymousGuy [スコア非表示]  (12子コメント)

freesync is an open source standard, but nvidia has no interest in dropping their proprietary tech for amds implementation.

[–]DarQraven [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

When has Nvidia ever picked up something that AMD has done without rebranding it and pretending they invented it?

[–]FireworksNtsunderes [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

without rebranding it and pretending they invented it?

Sounds like another very popular tech company that has already been mentioned in this thread...

[–]Nixflyn [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

I see far more of the opposite, really. Shadowplay, DSR, entire middleware packages, adaptive sync as a whole, and the list goes on. How many things has AMD produced that Nvidia picked up at all? The closest thing would probably be hairworks, but the tech behind hairworks and tressFX is pretty far removed. More like 2 different methods to accomplish the same goal (which hairworks does far better, but at a performance cost).

Even Mantle started as OpenGL Next that AMD broke away from the Khronos Group (which included Nvidia) to work on their own on in order to gain an advantage (I don't blame them for attempting to compete in this way). After it went nowhere as a proprietary API they donated back to Khronos, which is better as a whole.

[–]RippyZ [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Well not when they were getting gsync monitors manufactured, but BenQ already discontinued what is considered the best gsync monitor and has moved to freesync. Nvidia will get on freesync if monitor manufactures stop putting gsync in monitors.

[–]Kered13 [スコア非表示]  (11子コメント)

Nvidia GPUs will be able to support Freesync when they decide to, but right now they're still pushing Gsync. Freesync is an open standard in theory, but in practice it's tied to AMD cards. Until one standard is supported by both card manufacturers, I'm saying out.

[–]R_K_M [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

but in practice it's tied to AMD cards.

Intel has said they will also be supporting FreeSync.

Not that this is helping gamers...

[–]agentlame [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

It's also supported by VESA and is part of the DisplayPort 1.2a spec. To me that means more than Intel's support.

[–]fizzlefist [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

It's also supported by VESA

My first thought was, "The monitor mount?"

[–]LDShadowLord [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Actually, yes. VESA define the standard for monitor mounts and for displayport and freesync. They do a lot of shit relating to peripherals and computers.

[–]decross20 [スコア非表示]  (4子コメント)

Ah, that makes sense. Although with Gsync and freesync technically only those parts of the monitor are tied down, right? You can still use the monitor with a different GPU, you just can't take advantage of it fully. I totally get why you wouldn't want to get a monitor like that but you're not completely tied to a GPU.

[–]Kered13 [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

Yeah, you can still use the monitor's basic functionality, but then what was the point of buying the monitor?

[–]Nixflyn [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Some, like the Acer Predator series, are overclockable to 165Hz, IPS, and just damn amazing. Referbs for as low as $500 for the 27" 1440p model. Yes please.

[–]HighRi12 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Freesync doesn't add to the price of the monitor, my 144hz monitor came with freesync for $200 but even though I have an AMD card I don't use it.

[–]willyolio [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Nvidia could support freesync and amd is willing to let them certify it for free, nvidia just chooses not to so their customers are forced to buy more expensive gsync monitors to get the feature. Then when they upgrade their graphics card they're forced to buy nvidia again or else they lose the feature then, too.

[–]H_Rix 9ポイント10ポイント  (1子コメント)

[–]cheekynakedoompaloom [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

to be clear, freesync is not identical to adaptive sync, freesync includes adaptive sync but adds software features to it like low framerate doubling. intel may or may not add low framerate doubling when they implement the adaptive sync standard on their igpus. chances are very good they will but it's not guaranteed nor is it required to do so to fully implement adaptive sync.

[–]cowsareverywhere 32ポイント33ポイント  (1子コメント)

I just don't know how anyone can support artificial platform restrictions on the PC. It's absolutely ridiculous!

[–]tinnedwaffles [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Its makes no sense. It doesn't even make sense for Oculus.

Whats the fucking advantage they gain in this? Cutting out Vive owns who buy stuff on their store gains them... what exactly?

[–]orestesma 18ポイント19ポイント  (0子コメント)

Not even that. It's more like locking games to a LG or DELL monitor. That's insane.

[–]Heaney555 78ポイント79ポイント  (50子コメント)

GPU manufacturers did exactly that for the first 3 or 4 years of consumer GPUs in the '90s.

As with all new tech, it eventually converged and standardised.

[–]jlitwinka 82ポイント83ポイント  (24子コメント)

What's insane though is that we have those as case studies now. Oculus KNOWS that this doesn't work and yet they're doing it anyway.

[–]Die4Ever 28ポイント29ポイント  (7子コメント)

Even when the APIs were locked to one brand of hardware (Glide), the games still often had multiple API choices, usually even including software rendering

[–]Skullpuck 11ポイント12ポイント  (0子コメント)

Not all games did. If they had an agreement it would just be Glide.

[–]Skullpuck 10ポイント11ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yeah I remember that. REQUIRED: Cirrus Logic SVGA. Will my infinitely superior Matrox card work? Nope.

[–]muchcharles 7ポイント8ポイント  (5子コメント)

There were GL to GLIDE to wrappers, and no DRM to stop them.

[–]StokeYdral [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Image if Nvidia and AMD made games exclusive to their hardware?

Sometimes AMD's driver support makes me think they are making games exclusive to Nvidia hardware.

[–]UQRAX[🍰] [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

No need to imagine: a horde of fanboys will just support whatever anti-consumer bullshit their company of choice decides to pull.

[–]Doomed [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

They already push proprietary tech, like NVIDIA HairWorks and PhysX. Such functionality doesn't work as well on AMD, because they have to work around it or just make the player disable those options.

[–]DaveSW777 436ポイント437ポイント  (38子コメント)

Oh, so I was right to not trust Facebook when they purchased the Oculus Rift. Not surprised they would pull this kind of shit.

[–]Rammite [スコア非表示]  (33子コメント)

I still remember all the fallout from when Notch immediately canceled Minecraft VR the moment Facebook bought Oculus. Everyone thought he was paranoid, he handwaved it because he just didn't trust Facebook.

Looks like he was totally right.

[–]Hellknightx [スコア非表示]  (12子コメント)

But... Minecraft VR is already on the Oculus store. John Carmack was pretty excited about working on it.

[–]Rammite [スコア非表示]  (11子コメント)

Yeah, Notch stepped down quite some time ago, and left all executive control to his friend and co-creator, Jens Bergensten. He left shortly before or after the deal with Microsoft, I forget which.

[–]LinuxVersion [スコア非表示]  (10子コメント)

It was at the same time, Notch was just like "If you give me 2 billion dollars, I'll drink the kool-aid and give you whatever." Here is the tweet: https://twitter.com/notch/status/281139739304800256?lang=en

[–]GamerToons [スコア非表示]  (8子コメント)

I'd sell out for billions of dollars too.

[–]NaivePhilosopher [スコア非表示]  (4子コメント)

I mean, everyone has a price, and $2 billion is an order of magnitude higher than most. More power to him.

[–]JCelsius [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

I still can't believe that Minecraft was purchased for half the amount Disney paid for Star Wars. Really makes you realize how big gaming is nowadays.

[–]dsiOneBAN2 [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

Yep, I can't blame Luckey or Notch, but I do wonder why Luckey stuck around to go down with the ship.

[–]shawnaroo [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Notch had removed himself from the development of Minecraft well before it was sold to MS. He said one of the reasons he decided to sell the company was because his Twitter feed was still flooded with personal insults every time MInecraft was updated, even though he wasn't making any of those decisions any more.

[–]DaveSW777 [スコア非表示]  (13子コメント)

Imagine if had made a deal with Oculus Rift for Minecraft VR... Everyone but Facebook would have been screwed over badly.

[–]6x9equals42 [スコア非表示]  (12子コメント)

Can't tell if you're being sarcastic, but that's exactly what happened after he sold Minecraft to Microsoft. For VR it's an Oculus/GearVR exclusive.

[–]Draber-Bien [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

Eeerh. I played Minecraft today on a Vive, all it takes is a Minecraft mod, and 90% of Minecraft players already use a shitload of those.

[–]6x9equals42 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Yeah, the gearVR uses the newer c++ version so I would use a modded Java version anyways. Officially though it's oculus only

[–]NDWolfwood5268 [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

How was he right? I mean, I'm not defending Facebook, but that seems like a tangent. He could have OKed development of a Minecraft VR that supported Oculus Rift and other HMD's without locking into the Rift environment and Oculus Home. Why was his knee-jerk reaction of pulling out of the project justified? Was Mojang looking at an exclusivity deal I'm not aware of?

[–]Rammite [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

He didn't like Facebook's sketchiness, and he was the highest voice of Minecraft at the time. Nothing more.

Like I said, most people thought he was being a conspiracy theorist and freaked out over nothing. He just thought it'd bring Minecraft into dangerous territory.

[–]xelf 107ポイント108ポイント  (17子コメント)

Was speaking to a VR developer yesterday, we talked about this, and his point was simply "no one is making money off of the headsets", this move makes no sense.

You want people buying games from your store, no matter how they use it.

Even more so for facebook. The amount of headsets they would have to sell to recoup the cost of buying oculus is not likely to ever happen. They need the store to take off.

[–]InSOmnlaC 84ポイント85ポイント  (13子コメント)

I think they're simply terrified of Valve and the Vive. That's the only explanation. They want to lock the PC gaming consumer into their ecosystem just like Apple tries.

[–]Schmich [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

And it's stupid because it will do the exact opposite. It will push sales towards the Vive as people don't want to support this behaviour. It will also scare people to go with the Rift because who knows how it will get locked down later on.

[–]thepotatoman23 [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

The rift hardware already locks you out of playing non oculus store software with a warning about "unknown sources" until you change a setting in the store.

[–]Soupdeloup [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

That's standard practice for the Android OS, seems Oculus tried taking it from there. As long as it can be toggled I don't see it as being much of an issue.

[–]TheSambassador [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

So if I have a Vive right now, I am much less likely to currently own an Oculus right now (some people have both, but most have 1 or the other).

Down the road, when the next generation of headsets comes out, let's say I am wanting to "upgrade" and am considering between the Oculus CV2 and the Vive CV2.

If I've already bought a bunch of Oculus games from their store, don't I have MORE incentive to potentially buy the Oculus CV2 than I would otherwise? I'd already be partially invested in their ecosystem.

If I don't have ANY library of games with them, I'd think I would be much LESS likely to eventually switch. However, if I had been able to buy and play games this whole time, if the Oculus CV2 was actually better, I'd be tempted to switch.

Just my thoughts... I can't really reason out Oculus's move here.

[–]RetroMedux [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Yeah I only have a Rift but this is why whenever I have a choice between buying something on the Oculus store or Steam I'll choose Steam 90% of the time. Aside from the fact that it's usually cheaper and that's where the bulk of my games library already is I have no idea what headset I'll want to use in the future.

[–]_sosneaky [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Yes and that's what they're counting on, that their headset will have more marketshare and that this anti competitive bullshit will force people to stay in their ecosystem.

But it's going to backfire as pc users are used to an open platform and more people will support open headsets (for now just the vive, but no doubt more competition soon enters the market).

[–]justinlindh [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

You can also buy Oculus software on Steam, which is the only sane thing to do (especially now). If you own a title on Steam, it's likely it'll also support other headsets (through SteamVR or other) so you'll be fine in the future if you buy another brand.

As a Vive owner, I was willing to buy titles on Oculus Home because things started working for me. That's money for Oculus, and money for the developers of the exclusives. Now that I know they're actively trying to block that, I'm done buying from there. And all Rift owners should be, too.

This also creates huge motivation for piracy: it'll be the only way to run exclusives on Vive. That kind of piracy will help starve the devs as Vive owners no longer buy their titles, and even Rift owners have the option to pirate instead of buy.

So this decision is blatantly stupid of both Facebook and Oculus, and it's one in a long line of many. I can't see Oculus being a popular platform 5 years from now.

[–]Klohto [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

What he was trying to say is, that now it's all about market penetration. Same with consoles

[–]GalcomMadwell [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

This is the amazon philosophy. They will sell you the book reader or the thing viewer, but they don't care whether you buy the book or the thing on any platform.

I think its working out fairly well for them. I can't tell you how many times I've impulse bought a book to read on my phone.

[–]_sosneaky [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

You're thinking short term, they're thinking long con

People who buy a vive might buy oculus exclusives (gross) on the oculus store, but they'll still go elsewhere (like steam) for everything else.

Their non-compatibility and exclusives are an attempt for them to grab as much marketshare as possible early on (by splitting the userbase, forcing people to buy a rift if they want to be able to play all vr games).

And from there they 'll have enough power over the VR industry to lord over it like an apple style platform holder.

Then their API becomes the standard one, and any developer wanting to publish a vr game will use it, meaning any hardware vendor who wants to sell a vr headset has to use it too.

And once they're using oculus' api they answer to oculus. In the form of apple/console style platformholder royalties.

To them that is worth giving up some early software sales.

They're most likely going to fail miserably though, but I don't think they care if they're shooting themselves in the foot. It's all or nothing.

Facebook did not pay 2 billion dollars for oculus to end up with VR headsets being an open peripheral and a free market.

Remember that when facebook bought oculus there was no talk of any valve headset. Facebook thought they were buying the only real player in a new market and be free to platformholder lord over it.

They didn't count on actually having to compete for marketshare, and now they are doing everything they can to avoid competing (with all these anti competitive, userbase splitting measures)

[–]Jindouz 159ポイント160ポイント  (57子コメント)

Another reason to wait out this gen of VR headsets to see who's left standing and with sane prices plus better hardware after the dust settles.

[–]Kalbrick 141ポイント142ポイント  (33子コメント)

Vive is more powerful, and doesnt have any of the privacy incading bullshit or exclusivity bullshit that occulus has. no brainer

[–]RscMrF [スコア非表示]  (22子コメント)

It is, it's also a bit more expensive in an already expensive market. I know, smart phones cost a lot, but hardly anyone pays full price, you get a plan and get a phone with it at a reduced price. People don't just drop 600-800 bucks on entertainment lightly. I feel like the average person has one or two things outside of necessities that they will throw that much money at, and a lot of people simply can't justify anything at that price that is not a necessity. It's why consoles are still so popular, yeah they are simpler and easier to use than a gaming PC, they are also comparatively much cheaper. A 4-500 dollar purchase is a lot easier to justify than a 8-1000 dollar one.

I am fully aware that you can build a gaming PC for as low as 4-500 bucks that performs better than consoles, but most people are not aware and view PC gaming as something that is rather more expensive, and honestly, it is. If you want the best console experience, you pay for a new console, 4-500 and that's it. People don't like the idea of spending hundreds of dollars just to settle for a second rate PC.

Edit: I was not saying one is better than the other or anything like that, just some observations.

[–]DogzOnFire [スコア非表示]  (4子コメント)

I used to work for Orange (who later merged with T-Mobile to become EE/Everything Everywhere). People who I sold phones to thought they were saving money by taking fixed term contracts to subsidise the cost of the phones they were getting. Trust me, they weren't saving money. They would have saved a hell of a lot of money just buying the phone itself and taking a SIM-only contract.

Most people didn't like the idea of SIM-only plans even when I suggested that they'd save money that way. They just wanted this concept that they were getting a phone for free. They wanted it to seem like they were getting a good deal, even though they weren't.

Trust me, these take-a-two-year-contract-and-get-the-new-Google-Nexus-free deals aren't really saving you money, speaking from the perspective of someone whose job it was to basically trick people into taking out these contracts (which is also why I quit that job). The customer always loses when they take one of these deals.

[–]Milkshakes00 [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

Actually, for smartphones in plans now, you do pay the entire price of the phone. It's just $20-30 a month extra charge on your plan. And you don't actually own the device until you fully pay it off. This is the "NEXT" plan and whatnot that all the major providers are doing now.

Smarter way is to buy the phone on a low/no interest credit card and pay it off that way, as long as you can consistently pay to it.

[–]Skyeripper [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

I kinda took this approach to my Vive. Got a new card that had no interest for the first year and bought the Vive. Instead of it being $830 up front (like buying a phone would be) I just make little monthly payments (like how buying phones are).

[–]shidarin [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

It's more expensive because it comes with motion controllers. The oculus Touch controllers aren't out yet, and will probably cost 100-200 when they are.

[–]muchcharles 24ポイント25ポイント  (13子コメント)

Just go with Vive if you are on the fence; Facebook is pulling this card because they are already losing. Look at r/Vive vs r/Oculus subscriber numbers or Google trends reaching parity.

And it beats it on tracking etc.

[–]KarmaAndLies [スコア非表示]  (10子コメント)

Facebook is pulling this card because they are already losing. Look at r/Vive vs r/Oculus subscriber numbers or Google trends reaching parity.

Huh?

And Google Trends show Oculus doing better too:

http://i.imgur.com/c9fMK8z.png

[–]Xet [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Most people are going to search for 'Vive' and not 'HTC Vive'.

[–]Pikamander2 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

We shouldn't be looking at the current number of subscribers, because the Rift project was announced long before the Vive project.

A better metric would be to look at the subreddit growth rates:

http://redditmetrics.com/r/Vive

http://redditmetrics.com/r/Oculus

The Vive subreddit is currently getting 2-3 times as many new subscribers each day as the Rift. The downside to using this metric is that many VR enthusiasts have already been subscribed to the Rift subreddit for a while, so it doesn't accurately reflect the amount of current interest in the two headsets.

[–]muchcharles [スコア非表示]  (7子コメント)

Sorry meant active users, Vive has ~50% more nearly all the time. Subscribe growth rate is much higher there but hasn't passed r/Oculus yet.

r/oculus is/was the main general VR subreddit for a while.

Set your trends time range to something like the last 90 days (there I only said parity).

[–]KarmaAndLies [スコア非表示]  (6子コメント)

That doesn't appear to be true either:

Ignoring May because we're mid-way through it.

  • vive: 523,651 unique visitors in April
  • Oculus: 728,229 unique visitors in April

The two, to me, seem very similar. One definitely doesn't have 50% more than the other, no matter which measure you use, or how you tweak the data.

Also set my Google Trends to only the last 90 days, still doesn't show what you're claiming:

http://i.imgur.com/TAbAwvs.png

[–]acosmichippo [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

honestly, the last 20 days a lot has changed. oculus people are getting more and more pissed about shitty delivery of their orders and jumping to vive. Plus this whole fiasco only happened 24 days ago:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Vive/comments/4ghhqd/palmer_luckey_gets_rekt_over_at_roculus/

[–]Arianity [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

vive: 523,651 unique visitors in April

Oculus: 728,229 unique visitors in April

The two, to me, seem very similar. One definitely doesn't have 50% more than the other

730k vs 530k, is ~200k difference, which is roughly 50% of the vive number (Although that ends up being the opposite of what he claimed).

I think he might have meant live concurrents (the number under the total subs) when he said active, though. I'm only looking briefly, but vive is ~2k, vs 1.3 for oculus

And the google trends seem pretty close to parity, as claimed, after ~May 2016

[–]PM_ME_CAKE [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

I think you'll be interested to see that if you change HTC Vive to just "Vive" that the results are quite a bit different.

[–]bankruptbroker [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

I have both, but my little bro is borrowing the occulus and I'm in no hurry to ask for it back for what its worth the vive wins on everything except comfort. Occulus is more comfortable, but maybe a little dimmer.

[–]sentient_entropy 95ポイント96ポイント  (18子コメント)

I'm happier each day to have ditched Oculus once Facebook bought them, because I now own a Vive and don't have to put up with their bullshit.

[–]HorrendousRex[🍰] [スコア非表示]  (9子コメント)

I have nothing but respect and admiration for John Carmack, but I feel his talents are being horrendously circumvented and even maligned by Facebook here. Why he permitted that acquisition is beyond me. I feel poorly for him, as he is a personal hero of mine.

[–]Razumen [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

He's the chief technical officer, I don't know how much say, if any, he has in the business side of things. Even in id he was more interested in technology than anything.

[–]ThatOnePerson [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

They're paying him to do research/development on interesting things. That's a developer's dream. His twitter is interesting with talk about inside-out tracking on the GearVR.

[–]mackeneasy [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

there are a billion reasons ($$$) why he permitted the acquisition.

[–]eobet [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

He's all snowed in on the mobile side of things, because that's currently a new frontier that he can tinker on.

PC gaming and tech has stagnated as everything is pretty much "powerful enough". But I'm interested in PC gaming, and not some social VR experience, so Valve all the way.

PS. The lighthouse tech is no slouch. Miles more technically impressive than just a fast camera with image recognition, imo. Go Alan Yates!

[–]ggmcgee [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

As far as I know he hasn't actually had much of a hand in the Oculus Rift and has spent the vast majority of his time on GearVR. I think now he's working on spacial tracking solutions for mobile VR and thinks that's the best route forward for the platform.

[–]PandahOG 86ポイント87ポイント  (54子コメント)

Not trying to start a VR Flame War but from the things Ive been seeing, it seems like Vive is the best choice for me if I get into VR gaming.

[–]wOlfLisK [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Pretty much. It's more expensive but it does everything the Rift does but also has room scale support. So you can sit down and do your racing sims and starship piloting or get up and start flipping burgers in Job Simulator. Plus, the games are sold on Steam so you can keep all your games together whether they're VR or not.

[–]6x9equals42 20ポイント21ポイント  (20子コメント)

Unless you're getting it specifically for racing and flight sims which currently have better Rift support (Vive is catching up though) then yes.

[–]muchcharles 27ポイント28ポイント  (6子コメント)

Even if you are only getting it for flight Sims, every flight sim include more arcadey ones like the Oculus pack-in Eve: Valkyrie is getting official Vive support.

Oculus is only a little better off today, but there are no known exclusive flight Sims for it. Even Eagle Flight is coming to Vive.

[–]WackySkeletons 4ポイント5ポイント  (10子コメント)

All this business has turned me off to VR gaming entirely.

[–]Moleculor[S] [スコア非表示]  (8子コメント)

That's like saying that EA has turned you off from gaming entirely. Why should one company's missteps put you off from the whole thing?

[–]WackySkeletons [スコア非表示]  (6子コメント)

Because I can come back in 3-4 years when all this mess is sorted out instead.

[–]biophazer242 [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

It is a very valid point. When you buy some new 'thing' as an early adopter there is always a very good chance it will not survive or drastically improve by the time it becomes common place. I have a bunch of laserdiscs that speak to this very thing.

[–]flappers87 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Because in this generation, there are only 2 proper gaming VR sets to buy. If they are both in conflict, and one is trying to gain monopoly over the other, while the other is more expensive, then yes, people would be turned off.

The EA comparison is a moot point, considering there are alternatives to EA.

[–]lpisme 19ポイント20ポイント  (4子コメント)

Question for those who know better than I do: what are the prospects, if any, of being able to bypass this via software? Is it hard as heck to crack open or...?

[–]c1e0c72c69e5406abf55 38ポイント39ポイント  (12子コメント)

While I can't say I didn't see this coming it is a little disappointing to know it is actually happening. It would have been nice to have a truly free and open VR revolution in gaming but it looks like this is going to go the route of everything else in gaming where there are walled gardens.

[–]ant51508 [スコア非表示]  (6子コメント)

The vive looks pretty open for now. I hope it stays this way.

[–]Deimos_F [スコア非表示]  (4子コメント)

Based on Gabe's philosophy of "power to the user and the community", I am sure it will remain open.

[–]ant51508 [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

That would be the smart move. Though we have already seen them fuck up with the paid mods for example.

[–]Deimos_F [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

Considering how Bethesda is still trying to push that nonsense, and how quickly Valve backtracked on the plan and still has not revisited it, I'll go on a limb and say Bethesda were the main driving force behind all that. If nothing else, the obscene percentage of the profits that supposedly would go to them makes me believe that was the case. Heck, in the community market, on items that originally were developed by valve staff, valve's share per sale sits around only 10-15%. The more you look into it, the more it seems valve just took the opportunity of having a major developer interested in starting something that they have considered many times, and went along with it. Don't forget, the majority of valve's games started out as mods. If any major developer knows the modding community it's them.

[–]ggmcgee [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

SteamVR in general is very open. Steam currently supports the Vive and Rift as well as all of their respective dev kits. That's the way it should be.

[–]Soltea [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

It was painfully obvious for anyone willing to see it. Zuckerberg laid out their plans and business model to the investors himself right at the start.

He also strongly implied that they will move away from gaming when the market and technology is ready for what they really bought the company for.

I'm very grateful that we have a company with an actual interest in gaming competing with them.

[–]Skullpuck 33ポイント34ポイント  (8子コメント)

Oculus trying to be Apple. You're not that big, Oculus. You're also turning away customers. Your device is already less than the Vive in terms of equipment and usability. Just shoot yourself in the foot more and get it over with.

[–]SnowSC2 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Ugh, I was on the Oculus train for years, I bought both dev kits and was planning on getting the CV once it finally came out, but as of late it really took a nosedive for me with these decisions, if I grab a headset it will probably be a Vive.

[–]anoobitch [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

I was deciding between the rift and the vive. Guess Ill get the vive when oculus is pulling shit like this.

[–]N4N4KI 17ポイント18ポイント  (3子コメント)

I said this was going to happen on the day the FB acquisition news broke, I was down voted for my efforts, and told that the headset was synonymous with a monitor...

[–]ParadoxNinja [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

Im so sick of this closed market bullshit. Seriously?! Its on PC. Thats it, let them use their 3rd party hardware. Those are the PC rules, and these VR lockouts are just going to make people not buy their product, especially if the title is exclusive. These are headsets, not fucking consoles.

[–]ChipmunkDJE [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

So since the Oculus is inferior to other VR headsets, the solution is to lock out those headsets instead of making a better product? All this does is confirm all of the fears people had about Facebook getting involved.

Don't plan on ever buying a Facebook product. If I get into VR, it'll be the Vive. Thanks for making that decision for me, at least.

[–]chorus42 [スコア非表示]  (5子コメント)

I don't get it. Why would I, a theoretical games developer, now put my Oculus supported game on their proprietary service when I could almost double my potential user base by publishing it on Steam, a name I trust a lot more not to make decisions like this? Can I publish on both Steam and Oculus? Either yes and this doesn't matter at all in the long term for problems like Revive, or no, and they drive developers to Steam until they change their tune, if ever.

Unless, of course, they now try enforcing Oculus DRM even on games outside of their service, which would be horrible.

[–]Perunsan 13ポイント14ポイント  (17子コメント)

isn't it normal for updates to break mods ?

[–]KovaaK 51ポイント52ポイント  (12子コメント)

That was my initial thought, but looking at the post linked by OP, it seems the update added a feature that intentionally defeats the software people were using to play rift games on their vives.

[–]TomCei 29ポイント30ポイント  (11子コメント)

To play oculus games that they LEGALLY purchased with their OWN MONEY. That's the biggest thing to take away from this. It's not as if they were playing pirated oculus games...oculus are the real pirates allowing these people to buy their games then lock them out from playing them, but on the other side of the coin...the people who bought oculus games to play on the vive should've known better. Was only a matter of time.

[–]6x9equals42 27ポイント28ポイント  (0子コメント)

This didn't break the mod, it's DRM. The mod still works if you have a Rift plugged in when you start the game to bypass the DRM.

[–]Moleculor[S] 27ポイント28ポイント  (0子コメント)

One line

Bug fixes and security updates, including updates to platform integrity checks

in the changelog was specifically about implementing DRM. "Updates to platform integrity checks" is newspeak for "Make sure that we block non-Rift headsets".

[–]RealHumanHere [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

No. This was purposely done to add a DRM that forces the game to check if the headset is a Rift or not, and if it shows it's not, then it doesn't run the game.

Purposely done.

[–]zzzornbringer 8ポイント9ポイント  (1子コメント)

this sounds harsher than it is i guess. i don't see a lot of games that will be published exclusively on the oculus store. but given that facebook has infinite money, there may be some exclusive deals.

again, like anywhere else, exclusivity is the opposite of consumer friendly. i can only recommend to not support this kind of bs.

[–]xJsnowx 7ポイント8ポイント  (15子コメント)

Called this a while ago and got downvoted to death. VR will die out easily if things like this keep on going. I'm betting the porn industry is the one that's going to walk out of this the winners, not the gaming industry. Of course if you make porn games then you got the best of all of it lol.

Edit: To clarify I mean gaming. Its already being chopped up with exclusivity. In a few more years of course there will be a market but right now pulling an "apple" is not helping anyone.

[–]Protoman_Eats_Babies [スコア非表示]  (5子コメント)

more like oculus will die out, not vr. the vive is doing well, and is backed by the biggest pc platform ever, and is doing none of the invasive and anti-consumer policies oculus is doing. samsung gear vr is probably going to sell decently, and sony's ps4 vr option will definitely get a solid user base.

[–]Richandler [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Shit like this get implemented when companies don't have anything that separates them from their competitors. They attempt to wall you in after adoption.

[–]BRICK_FRONG [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Haha I remember on this sub when people were calling people alarmists for being worried about facebook getting involved in the Oculus.

Well there we have it- Facebook, with a history of being awful, continues to be awful in other ventures. Thanks Zuckerberg you greedy piece of human garbage!

[–]sonyatshoneys [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

I remember just a few months ago people insisting that there was simply no way that the Oculus wouldn't end up as the dominant player in the VR headset market. Clearly Facebook took that as a challenge.