50
51

Real discussion regarding mod abuse (self.Seattle)

seattle-freeze が 投稿

Could we have a legitimate conversation regarding mod abuse? There was a post with over 300+ comments in that was deleted because the original poster edited the topic to include a link to a competing subreddit. With the deletion of that thread valid conversation was lost. Many people came to that thread to voice their own individual concerns unrelated to the concerns that the original author was posing. Its a shame that valid conversation was deleted.

*/u/careless has informed me that the other thread was deleted because it contained a link to another subreddit and /u/careless feels endangered by the members of that subreddit. I honestly feel like the reddit admins need to be brought in on this subject.

**paging /u/spez

***There has been allegations of dox'ing from that other subreddit and until there is proof they are only allegations. I think its unfair to use something that is unfounded to punish the rest of the community.

全 139 件のコメント
並べ替え:
ベスト
トップ新着論争中古い順Q&A

[–]notcaffeinefree 18ポイント19ポイント  (9子コメント)

Also would be nice to have some mod input other than careless. I mean, he/she seriously can't be the only mod that's active here right?

[–]tehstoneRenton 9ポイント10ポイント  (5子コメント)

zomboi is the only other mod i've ever seen active, and she did post in yesterday's removed thread. but she admitted being an IRL friend of careless and usually leaving community interaction to careless.

edit: pronouns

[–]kcrobinsonMadrona 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

If I had advanced notice of the other thread happening, I promise that I would have been there for the discussion. As it is, I have commented elsewhere in this thread.

[–]seattle-freeze[S] -3ポイント-2ポイント  (1子コメント)

Thats one of my biggest concern is that we don't know who the mods are, or even if there is more than one, nor who they are affiliated with.

[–]derrickito1Green Lake 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

the mods are all linked in the sidebar.

[–]derrickito1Green Lake 45ポイント46ポイント  (7子コメント)

careless deletes as careless feels like. this one will be gone too. if you could keep your posts about how much you're going to enjoy the reddit meetup, containing pictures of approved sunset photos taken from key vantage points, and discussions about Paseo, well then everything will go much smoother for you here. nothing else is allowed and dissent is a banishing offense.

"Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. " -Taco Time Founder Mike McGinn

[–]smokingspliffs 14ポイント15ポイント  (0子コメント)

i admire your dedication to taco time

[–]JohnStamosBRAHCapitol Hill 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

Oh, don't forget allowing journalist shills to spam their own websites to drum up ad money!

[–]mister_pjmQueen Anne 26ポイント27ポイント  (1子コメント)

Might as well write the same thing that I wrote yesterday, since that's my most recent experience...which is absolutely fucking crazy.

Just last week, after Felix Hernandez broke the record for most wins by any Mariners pitcher, I posted a link to that information.

It was removed about 3 minutes later on the grounds of being "Not Seattle Related".......WHAT

I realize there is a Mariners subreddit, in fact, that's one of my favorite reddit communities, but the goddamn fucking name of the fucking baseball team that IS LOCATED IN SEATTLE....Seattle Mariners....isn't "Seattle Related?"

[–]tristanjones 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

It wasn't a picture of the skyline at sunset. Duh

[–]CarebearFromSeattle 12ポイント13ポイント  (0子コメント)

Careless gets a lot of shit for his work because of the way he treats all of us in the process. Your average mod gets some shit, but they don't have to put up with nearly as much as Careless simply because they don't act like Careless.

The "Subreddit That Shall Not Be Named" gives Careless shit because he abuses this community. And let's be clear, it's not everyone in the subreddit - it's just individuals, and when they take it too far, they are removed.

If Careless removed himself as moderator of r/Seattle, almost all of these problems would disappear. Sure, someone is always going to find an issue with moderators. But most moderators don't have nearly as many issues as Careless.

[–]TubaMuffinsOGCapitol Hill 10ポイント11ポイント  (3子コメント)

once you get banned from /r/seattle for a week you learn your place

[–]careless_sux 8ポイント9ポイント  (2子コメント)

Or you create a new account.

[–]MetricInferno 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

lol your username

[–]TubaMuffinsOGCapitol Hill 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

eh I got a lot of work done that week instead of giving shit to "visiting Seattle" threads

[–]flipstablesKirkland 10ポイント11ポイント  (5子コメント)

I totally get why the original post was deleted. And I even get why this post had to be re-created to avoid witch hunts.

But can we revisit the Rule 4&6 concerning events? The bookstore challenge event, while a commercial event promoting bookstores, was still a legitimate item that this community could talk about. But that post got deleted. I think it's worth re-discussing what is spam and what is a worthwhile commercial event that this community would benefit knowing about.

[–]somenewuserCentral Area 7ポイント8ポイント  (2子コメント)

Wait, the Seattle Bookstore Day post got nuked? Damn, that's exactly how I heard about Seattle Bookstore Day (and I managed to finish the multi-store challenge and I get to go to the party for it). Independent bookstores doing something cool as a group seems like the exact thing a community would want to know about.

If we're going to delete everything that has a financial interest in anything, why does the Seattle Times get so many links posted?

[–]tehstoneRenton 5ポイント6ポイント  (1子コメント)

Because calling yourself a news source is a free pass. Then you can "report" about all kinds of businesses having promotions and call it sponsored content (if you choose to) and no one will realize it's advertising! Just sucks to be the little guy and have to rely on self-promotion.

[–]somenewuserCentral Area 8ポイント9ポイント  (0子コメント)

Ouch. You know, for some reason, knowing that the bookstore post got deleted makes me irrationally sad. I think I'm going to just pack it in and unsub from /r/Seattle for a while. Seeing a really cool community event that I enjoyed doing go down in flames while "moving to seatle what do" and "i can't adult literally help me adult plz" posts, even though they both violate the letter and spirit of the rules (and after all of us put so much effort into the megathreads and wiki) stay...that just, nope.

Bye for now, /r/seattle.

[–]careless_sux 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

Careless created a witch hunt thread using an alt just a week or two ago.

[–]zomboiFirst Hill -3ポイント-2ポイント  (0子コメント)

keep in mind that three mods review /r/seattle posts. so two might think a post belongs and one might think the same post should be removed.

[–]kduffygreavesBallard 27ポイント28ポイント  (16子コメント)

/u/careless is seriously the worst. Pretends to want feedback and then responds to everything defensively or is just a straight up dick.

[–]vas89080d 18ポイント19ポイント  (1子コメント)

most of us are here on our 5th username

[–]MakerGreyCrown Hill 12ポイント13ポイント  (0子コメント)

Don't tell him that. He'll tattle on you to the admins and they'll make you get a 6th.

[–]yelperSeattle Expatriate 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

At a risk of getting involved in the drama, rule #6 needs to be relaxed to allow posts about commercial entities/enterprises and 'bulletin board' posts. Currently, the rule is too broad and subject to interpretation. Moreover, the rule has frequently been used to selectively remove/approve posts, which is the genesis of the general irritation in /r/seattle.

Here's an attempt at a re-write:

Rule 6: We're a community, not a classifieds page. You are welcome to post events and personal projects that apply to the viewers of /r/seattle at-large. If you are interested in targeting first-person advertising to our community, check out Reddit's advertising info.

To handle the cruft of classifieds/job postings, a once-/twice-monthly thread linked from the header helps to keep things organized (/r/madisonwi does a fantastic job at this).

As an example, /r/dataisbeautiful has very particular rules. It's very easy to moderate accepting/removing threads based on those rules, particularly in suggesting the recourse the OP should take to get their content up to par or resolving specific issues. A one-and-done solution is never an acceptable solution -- if a user has issue with a moderator's action, we use internal channels (e.g. Slack) to get a second opinion, then communicate the consensus to the user.

[–]kcrobinsonMadrona[M] 16ポイント17ポイント  (35子コメント)

Hi everyone,

I'm going to take a stab at addressing your concerns as a mod who works along side Careless. Sadly, due to my schedule today, I'm not going to be able to respond to most comments. I'll just be able to say a few things here and then wait until this weekend or Monday to address specific questions you might have.

The other thread was indeed deleted for linking to a different subreddit, though it's not because that subreddit is "competing." The other subreddit has consistently doxxed the mods and is the primary source of harassment we receive. Honestly, this was a disappointing decision that we had to make. I loved the discussion happening in the other thread and am sad that it is gone.

I'm a volunteer here. I like what I do, and I take pride in making /r/Seattle a great place. In order to be a mod of a large subreddit like Seattle, you have to be willing to put up with abuse. I have developed a thick skin doing this. But the people of this other subreddit have consistently crossed the line. I don't expect you to necessarily agree with this, but it is justified that mentioning that subreddit is forbidden here. I am able to focus my efforts on fighting spam and harassment if I'm not worried about being doxxed.

I also get that people do not agree in general with all of the decisions that we have made. People are unhappy we remove a post that they think should have been approved. People are unhappy when we don't remove a post that they think should have been removed. All I can say is that whatever your opinion of a particular post is, I guarantee you that there are a number of people who think the exact opposite of you.

If the post is controversial in the slightest, then it is assured that we will hear from people who want it removed and people who accuse us of censorship if we do remove it. I promise that our removal decisions are based on our best attempts to apply the rules evenly without regard to our personal preferences. This includes removing "Bernie" posts even if we're a Bernie supporter or approving links to blogs we don't like or certain news sites that use a paywall. None of us get any form of kickback for anything we do here.

As to why we don't "just let the voting system take care of everything," I try to whenever I can. I make an effort to only step in if it explicitly breaks the rules, and I like to think that I err on the side of leaving something up if I am unsure what to do. That said, the voting system is easy to game, and abuse or spam is a very fast way to get yourself banned. It is right that we do not let people vote on these things.

So that's all for now. My hope is that this thread can stay up so we can have the conversation that so many people want. Please keep it civil and we'll address what we can when we can.

Thanks

[–]ChefJoe98136West Seattle 14ポイント15ポイント  (6子コメント)

mentioning that subreddit is forbidden here

should that be a posted sidebar rule or something ?

[–]derrickito1Green Lake 13ポイント14ポイント  (23子コメント)

thank you for your post!

but please seriously address the main over arching theme here in this thread: careless being removed as a moderator.

[–]notcaffeinefree 5ポイント6ポイント  (5子コメント)

FYI, I'm pretty sure /u/Hibernator is the only mod that can actually remove careless because of the mod hierarchy and he hasn't been active in a year. The other option would be to have him step down which I doubt will happen.

I'd be surprised if admins got involved because they aren't exactly breaking any rules.

[–]nishiokaDes Moines 7ポイント8ポイント  (4子コメント)

FYI, I'm pretty sure /u/Hibernator is the only mod that can actually remove careless because of the mod hierarchy and he hasn't been active in a year.

If that's the case, I'd like to see a new overlord installed. Having a dormant account sitting on top of everything like that is a risk to this sub.

[–]zomboiFirst Hill 3ポイント4ポイント  (3子コメント)

the admins have set up the mod squatting rules as that the reddit account has to be logged in every 60(?) days, the reddit user doesn't have to do any modding actions, just have to log into their reddit account.

The admins won't involve themselves into a moderation matter unless it impedes a default and/or breaks one of reddit's site-wide rules and/or the mod financially benefits from moderation.

[–]notcaffeinefree 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

The admins won't involve themselves into a moderation matter unless it impedes a default and/or breaks one of reddit's site-wide rules and/or the mod financially benefits from moderation.

/r/wow was also exception. Basically if it's a very popular sub and one person locks the entire thing down because they have a personal issue, then the admins could step in.

[–]nishiokaDes Moines -1ポイント0ポイント  (1子コメント)

Got it - sounds reasonable enough. I've never run a sub so I don't see what you guys are seeing behind the curtain. Thanks for the explanation.

[–]zomboiFirst Hill -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

it's really boring behind the curtain. Almost all of my modding is removing/approving posts.

[–]kcrobinsonMadrona -3ポイント-2ポイント  (16子コメント)

I don't support it. I think people advocating for that don't have any grounded reason for doing so

[–]IDoDash 13ポイント14ポイント  (6子コメント)

It's because of the sarcastic and condescending tone he/she uses when interacting with members. Your post above is appreciated because you maintained a level head and communicated your position without sarcasm, condescension, and general rudeness which is so often present in Careless's interactions. Responding in a combative manner, daring people to prove him wrong or come up with examples, and then berating them verbally when they can't - comments like these were all over the now-deleted thread from yesterday.

I have never PERSONALLY had those comments from Careless aimed at me, but quite frankly it's because I am afraid of interacting with him in any way because I could be banned or berated in the sub. Do you want members afraid of contributing to the community? Because that is how I have felt at times. I was extremely disappointed in the comments Careless contributed yesterday, both when speaking as an official mod and when not.

Careless should be on a Performance Improvement Plan, just like any other 'employee' with an attitude problem.

[–]derrickito1Green Lake 10ポイント11ポイント  (5子コメント)

i think you just need to read his posts, see how he interacts with people, see how he talks to people, and see how much he infuriates people and the community to understand advocating for removing him as a moderator.

i don't think that's an ungrounded opinion to have at all. people are helpless to affect change in leadership around here and feel subjugated and heeled by his behavior.

i also think that the system should be left to do more of what the system was designed to do. let users upvote and downvote content. don't allow someone to make up and execute rules on a whim. allow users to dictate what floats and what sinks. mods hand off a bit.

[–]kcrobinsonMadrona -2ポイント-1ポイント  (4子コメント)

I hear the "hands-off" argument frequently. I personally don't believe that it works.

Here's the thing I think you should understand: Careless has been consistently abused for his work far far more than I have ever been close to being. Sometimes I think he's too short with people, but it's because he now feels that he has to be defensive against everything. The work he does for this sub is still invaluable in ways that is hard to describe to the community who doesn't see all the behind the scenes work.

[–]seattle-freeze[S] 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

sounds like /u/careless needs to take a break from being a mod if they can't separate concerns.

[–]CarebearFromSeattle 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

Careless is abused for his work because of the way he treats us in the process.

The Subreddit That Shall Not Be Named pokes at him because he abuses this community.

If Careless removed himself as mod, all the problems would disappear.

[–]Harvey_Seattle 8ポイント9ポイント  (1子コメント)

Maybe we should get rid of more than one MOD....

[–]JohnStamosBRAHCapitol Hill 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

You don't think the endless amount of posts going on for years complaining about his attitude, policies, and actions is enough? He's awful, and the prolonged community response is evidence of it.

[–]seattle-freeze[S] 4ポイント5ポイント  (2子コメント)

If these allegations are true, and all they are right now are allegations, then the reddit admins and the authorities need to be involved. dox'ing is no longer a community issue.

*If a whole subreddit has formed around an illegal activity this isn't a small or simple issue.

[–]kcrobinsonMadrona -1ポイント0ポイント  (1子コメント)

We do address the individual instances of doxxing with the admins and they have been helpful. But sadly it's not good enough if we have to be always vigilant. The ban is to be proactive so we don't have to worry what has been posted since the last time we checked

[–]seattle-freeze[S] 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

so this is an issue with individuals and not a subreddit? i'm confused.

[–]turbosmashr 10ポイント11ポイント  (4子コメント)

The same thing will happen with this post. Bad moderation is a plague to this sub. Liberal and unfair use of the ban hammer is common. I've seen users get banned on subjective offenses without warning, despite the rules stating that a warning comes first. Overall editorializing happens all the time. This isn't a community influenced sub, it's heavily censored by /u/careless and unfortunately there's not much any of us can do about it. It's too bad that another sub can't gain enough popularity to displace this one, but when people look for a place to put Seattle content, the obvious choice is the sub called /r/Seattle. This is really a case where it's too bad that Reddit doesn't step in to save a large community sub.

[–]ClearGnome 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

Since no one is allowed to post it, and I can't seem to find it otherwise, can someone PM me the alternate subreddit?

[–]CarebearFromSeattle 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

See my user history. I may have just posted there...

[–]tehstoneRenton 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Think of a term commonly used by reddit to described a collective self-congratulatory event and then combine it with the name of our city.

[–]JohnStamosBRAHCapitol Hill 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

I love how the head mod here hasn't posted in over a year, the second tenured mod is a subreddit cancer, and the third most is buddy-buddy with said cancer. Other mods barely have any activity at all. It's almost as if careless purposely hired inactive mods to fill the list with many people, knowing full well that he'll retain all control. We're doomed, folks.

[–]THEREISNOSIDEBAR 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

When I was a kid, I used to watch Days of Our Lives. I guess it became part of my DNA, because whenever I see threads like these, I find it endlessly entertaining. Thank you everyone. Let the hate flow. Good stuff.

[–]ChiefSeathle 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

big injustices happening in seattle, hoping for restitution

[–]seattle-freeze[S] -2ポイント-1ポイント  (12子コメント)

Since my concerns were deleted in the original thread and now buried in this thread I'll reiterate them here:

I think you (/u/careless), or members of the mod team, benefit monetarily, personally or for others, from the arbitary rules regarding the promotion of activities within this subreddit.

[–]carelessNorth Capitol Hill -4ポイント-3ポイント  (2子コメント)

I can't stop you from thinking silly things, but I can tell you that, to my knowledge, no person on the /r/Seattle mod team (or any mod team I'm on) profits in any way at all from their mod work.

It is volunteer work, and that's it. Zero compensation.

[–]seattle-freeze[S] 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

its not a silly thing when an "official" game night competed with another non-official event and the organizer of that event was banned and their posts deleted. you've mentioned that you've had conversations with that person, but the rest of the community has not been informed what was discussed. You'll mention that this was several years ago, but I assert that when this happened is not of importance.

*the organizer of this event organized it on this subreddit, and actually ended up in the wall street journal and could be credited with the rise of esports.

[–]guga31bb -3ポイント-2ポイント  (6子コメント)

I think you (/u/careless), or members of the mod team, benefit monetarily, personally or for others, from the arbitary rules regarding the promotion of activities within this subreddit.

...what is your evidence for this? How are the rules "arbitrary"?

I'm not a mod, and this whole thing seems crazy. In the thread yesterday the mods were more than happy to explain their decisions about removing specific threads. The community responded by downvoting them and calling them names.

[–]seattle-freeze[S] 3ポイント4ポイント  (4子コメント)

An "official" game night competed with another non-official event and the organizer of that event was banned and their posts deleted.

[–]kcrobinsonMadrona 0ポイント1ポイント  (3子コメント)

I'm not 100% familiar with this controversy, but from what you're saying, it kind of sounds like we removed the non Reddit meetup. Our meetup rule has always been that the meetup had to have been created by Redditors, for all Redditors, and not be a for-profit venture. If a user was banned for it, I have to assume it's because they posted again after the first was removed and they were warned.

[–]seattle-freeze[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

It was created in this subreddit, by a redditor for redditors, and was a not for profit event. When I spoke with /u/careless he told me that he talked with the creator of that event and that he knows more than me. I've mentioned this issue for years and not once has a mod brought to my attention the reason it was deleted and the user banned. /u/careless could simply say it was a mistake, but they won't even go that far. /u/careless just calls me "a silly tinfoil hat wearing ninny" to quote *them (pronoun).

[–]kcrobinsonMadrona 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Sorry. I'm not sure what that is. I promise that we want more and more meetups on our sidebar and none of us are looking for an excuse to remove something that's within the rules.

[–]seattle-freeze[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

To my mind it is because /u/careless was friends with someone at the official event and that the attention of this unofficial event was hurting the official event. Or much worse /u/careless was friends with the bar of the event.

[–]zomboiFirst Hill -2ポイント-1ポイント  (1子コメント)

benefit monetarily, personally or for others, from the arbitary rules regarding the promotion of activities within this subreddit.

I do not benefit in any physical way from any of the activities that are promoted in /r/seattle. I have never seen any indication of this in what my fellow mods (my whole time as a /r/seattle mod) have removed or promoted.

If you think that any mod physically benefits from moderation then report it to the admins. Heck, PM me and I will give you one of my irl email addresses and we can talk about why you think as such.

[–]seattle-freeze[S] 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

We've talked. You weren't a mod when the situation happened. There was an "official" weekly game night that competed with another "unofficial" activity. The creator of the unofficial activity was banned and their posts deleted. To my mind this kind of arbitrary decision making could create a conflict of interest. To be frank, us as a community don't know if this is still happening, and since the original issue was never addressed in the community the potential conflict of interest could still exist.

[–]brittonsm -1ポイント0ポイント  (1子コメント)

okay we discussed; so now what? Are we going to go full Seattle and just bitch without any real action being taken - stay passive aggressive Seattle.

[–]seattle-freeze[S] 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

theres nothing we can do do. If we create a different subreddit and link to it the mods can allege they are getting dox'ed from members of that subreddit to ensure it does not gain traction.