全 35 件のコメント

[–]Avatar-X 8ポイント9ポイント  (19子コメント)

Lighthouse launched half dead because it didn't had built-in projects discoverability and because it was not a decentralized app at all.

Lighthouse servers, lightlist.io and any support the app had is long gone. I mean, the project died all the way back when the "official launch" of BitcoinXT happened.

In all the time I followed how it was doing, off 100 projects, I think I saw less than 10 being funded. 3 of them being for DarkWallet and 2 for lighthouse development which is now ironic. So, the answers to your questions is NO and NO.

Lighthouse as a crowdfunding app idea was a good one. But I can only see it as worthwhile long term if it is done as a decentralized app with built-in project discoverability. Maybe it could be done with a fork of OpenBazaar or just done as a ZeroNet site-app. Let's wait and see.

Update

I checked back on it via the vinumeris projects gallery site. I wonder if Hearn returned all the money pledged to Lighthouse. It results that it had raised $24,000 USD in Bitcoin from people for improvements and supposedly $1,000,000 for a future revamp. I am going to guess that he did since if he didn't there would be a hell of a lot more people pissed about it going away.

[–]onetrickwolf 2ポイント3ポイント  (15子コメント)

I don't think it was really a great idea.

Crowdfunding in general is already kind of a bad idea with a lot of people being scammed. Add Bitcoin to the mess and it's just scam city. Same with equity based around Bitcoin.

As much as people here hate regulation and stuff, investing and crowdfunding really don't work without some consumer protection. It's really not something suited for Bitcoin alone. It's something that can be made much better with Bitcoin, but pure Bitcoin based crowdfunding and investing is insane to me.

I mean people get all excited to send Bitcoin for crowdfunding or for investing but think about it, would you mail cash to some guy you don't know to fund some product or as an investment? Probably not.

[–]vdramaliev 1ポイント2ポイント  (8子コメント)

I agree with you completely. There must be some level of trust established between the donor and the project. There should be someone that is making sure the recipient of the donations uses them for the kind of purpose he has stated in the campaign. This is a form of centralization, yes, but I have not really found a way around it (ex. even the DAO experiment is in a way centralized by the existence of the "Curators").

Moreover, if the recipient is a person, then things get even more complicated. Can you imagine a person on the other side of the world, announcing a project? The only way that he can guarantee that the money were spent accordingly is to first use his own money for the purchase and after providing evidence of it, for the system to reimburse him the funds (but who will brave enough to donate anyway?). Having in mind that he can always provide counterfeits, proof should be third-party verifiable.

All this can get really complicated if including a number of parties and requiring for all the "if"s to be coded. I guess that is the purpose of all these smart contracts.

I am sure that at one point it will all be done (when and if access to these Blockchain 2.0 or 3.0 platforms becomes more widespread), but currently - it is much too early. Lighthouse was too ahead of its time.

[–]marcus_of_augustus 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Probably works good for private blockchains ...

[–]jtnauredditor for 1 month 0ポイント1ポイント  (6子コメント)

Curators have zero ability to access DOA funds.

[–]Federal-Agentredditor for 21 days 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

Except for the fact that they can only approve proposals that they are associated with...

[–]jtnauredditor for 1 month 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

That would be an abuse of their role, so if they start doing that (nepotism/cronyism), then the DAO has a voting mechanism (which doesn't require curator approval) to decide on who wants to stay with those curators and who wants to chose different ones and then the DAO splits into two.

But it's unlikely to be a 50/50 split. If the curators are widely despised, then the segment that splits off (with the original curators) will be tiny, leaving the majority to elect new curators.

It's a clunky process, but much cleaner/faster than if you had to deal with the equivalent situation in a corporate environment. In practice, I'd also expect the initial (non-binding) vote process that indicates the curator isn't wanted to be enough in most cases to get them to resign ... so it would likely be resolved well before a split was warranted.

[–]vdramaliev 0ポイント1ポイント  (3子コメント)

You are right, but they propose "contractors" and "codify" the relationship with them (this gets voted on by all token holders, but they propose it). I am just entering the DAO world :)

[–]jtnauredditor for 1 month 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

They don't make the proposals themselves. A proposal can be made by any DAO token holder and is submitted in the form of a smart contract. The curators only have two jobs - (1) confirm that the contract's byte code is the same as the source code and (2) confirm the identity of the proposal submitter is who they say they are (via a cryptographic signing). The ultimate goal is to have both of these jobs done by algorithms instead of people.

They don't do anything more than the two tasks above and don't judge the merits (or otherwise) of a proposal. As I said, if they overstep their roles, we'd surely hear about it and they'll be accountable to a vote.

[–]vdramaliev 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Thanks for clarifying. I really want to understand how this really works, but looking the white paper...I am not a developer. I am sure many people feel the same way.

[–]jtnauredditor for 1 month 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

No problem. I'm not a developer either and it does take a while to get one's head around it because it's something completely new ... and it's also the very first version of this thing, so I'm not expecting it to be perfect straight away.

[–]romerun 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

same true with all crypto assets. When there's no regulations, it's too convenient to pull exit scam, shameless pump/dump/inside trading, neobee, asicminer, etc. Although if we add mediators to a crowdfund project, it may protect consumer to some level. For example, such project can only access partials of crowdfunded money in stages of product delivery. The mediators will need to sign if the crowdfunder has completed such tasks before getting a partial fund.

[–]Avatar-X 0ポイント1ポイント  (4子コメント)

Well, the whole point of lighthouse was that all crowdfunding was for a fixed goal. If the fixed goal was not met, no bitcoin would be exchanging hands.

One of the theoretical updates it could have had is that it would had been able to introduce more control on funds distribution once a fixed amount was met. This done via multi-sig and by separating the funding in several transactions. Meaning that funds would be only accesible as goals were met by the project. And obviously goal would only be done if the funding for that goal was unlocked for the project. Which is something that was not really developed or thought in full by hearn just vaguely hinted at as far as I know. But that is how I would personally think it should had be done if Lighthouse had continued to be developed. I do also think that would go a long way to keep projects honest and humble. And it would also serve as a strong tell you if a someone is truthful and genuine in their intentions with a project. Because since it is an optional feature, if you see a new project from someone unknown, but you see that it has this option turned on for their project, then it is a lot easier to take a chance on it.

On the scamming front. Well, in the case of this approach, the first step is obviously clarity and transparency on making the point across that it is a high-risk endeavor with no solid guarantees. Which sounds like an obvious thing to have, but, you really don't see this point made as well as it should be on anything related to funding when it comes to all of the cryptocurrency space.

Now, there are other solutions to mitigate scamming even further. Just that that is a whole other long discussion. But I do know that there are 4 different companies still working at it from 4 different angles. It is just taking a long of time to see any results. All relating to portable reputation tied to provable identities. In this case identity not meaning it being a legally registered name.

[–]onetrickwolf 0ポイント1ポイント  (3子コメント)

The multi-sig pay as projects goes on sounds cool but could still be abused pretty easy. You just have to make sure you have a majority of the donations and then you can control everyone else's payout.

The auto funding when goal is a really neat concept but honestly it doesn't add much practical value. And again could be abused by someone just funding their own project.

I mean it's a really neat idea I just don't know how much application it really has. I was excited for it at first but as time goes on I'm just like "do we really need this?"

[–]Avatar-X 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

The release funds as they projects go model cannot be abused in the way you are thinking. It is controlled by who funded it, never by who is being funded. Those funding a project could still get socially engineered or manipulated to release funds in advance or if they are led to believe a goal was met even if it wasn't. But that is also whole other issue and it would be rarer as it requires a lot more effort from the scammer.

The fixed amount goal funds being released when met was indeed how Lighthouse worked. Also how BitcoinStarter works in their main model. That is indeed possible to abuse by self-funding. The same is true for regular crowdfunding platforms.

On if it do we really need this. I think we do. It is just that we have yet to see it being done correctly. Hearn abandoning Lighthouse didn't helped things either though.

[–]onetrickwolf [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

The proposed version of releasing the funds I heard is that if a certain amount of the donators approved the progress all the funds would be released. So if the owner bought the majority of the funding they could always get the funds released.

The version you're talking about really adds no value over a fiat crowd fund. Same with the released funding. It just makes it more dangerous for the consumer and crowd funding is already heavily not consumer sided.

I just don't really think crypto brings as much value to crowd funding as we would have hoped other than the standard value of low fees and avoiding potentially oppressive suppression.

[–]1DrK44np3gMKuvcGeFVvredditor for 17 days 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

it was not a decentralized app at all.

how so? i recall it requiring a client app to download like bitcoin core

[–]Chris_Pacia 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

I think there was a server option for tracking the number of pledges and displaying a pie chart in the UI. Other than that iirc it could also work in a server-less mode without showing that data.

[–]Avatar-X 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Well, you can read on it and find out for yourself why.

www.vinumeris.com/lighthouse/faq

It was more of a distributed app. Which is not the same thing at all.

[–]marcus_of_augustus 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

R3 CEV should use it to raise their $200 million.

When all 42 consortium partners stump up their portion then it goes ahead. It is basically designed for mutually untrustworthy partners funding a joint venture.

[–]GloomyOakredditor for 26 days 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Bonus point: in-house support /s

[–]CryptoBudha 4ポイント5ポイント  (2子コメント)

Yeah what happened to that project?

[–]tobixen 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

it died when Mike Hearn got "eaten up" by the blocksize debate.

I do have bitcoins in pledges and in the lighthouse wallet. I wonder how to get it out from there.

[–]GeorgesTurdBlossomredditor for 2 months 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

There are ways to get them out. I ended up emailing Mike and he helped me get the coins back.

[–]lzys 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Equity crowdfunding for non accredited where you could resell exist. Wefunder.com with tokens even better though because you can track the funds go out from funded company wallet

[–]pinhead26 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

IIRC, ironically, Lighthouse was originally proposed as a way to decentralize core development and replace the Bitcoin Foundation. Unfortunately, it REQUIRES Bitcoin XT nodes because it needs to check if "pledged" coins have been double-spent already. That UTXO query patch was rejected from Core.

[–]veqtrus [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

It was rejected because not only the idea (getutxos) is fundamentally broken but the implementation was buggy.

[–]pinhead26 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Yeah and opened potential DOS vectors too I think. Still, it put that ANYONECANPAY sighash to good use!

[–]2cool2fish 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

The guy that created it did so to get development funded for Bitcoin client software with him in charge. But everybody tried to use it for other unrelated projects. I think he ended up working at a bank in New Jersey or something.

[–]oshirowanen 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

No, because I don't understand such projects. I'm waiting for an equity based crowd funded system with a good reselling market.

[–]Chris_Pacia -2ポイント-1ポイント  (2子コメント)

The model wont work with a restrictive block size limit. Crowdfunds that had thousands of smaller pledges simply wouldn't fit in 1 MB.

[–]Guy_Tell[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

This would be true if every crowdfunding project was a tiny project with tons of people throwing in bread crumbs. Otherwise, smartfees or users setting the appropriate fee would have solved this specific issue.

Let's be honest and not try to blame the blocksize limit for every failed project.

[–]Chris_Pacia 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Fees have nothing to do with it. You seem to be willing to spout off without understanding how lighthouse worked.