(cache) BoomierBoomがAncient British populations [946x1172]について記入したコメント

[–]EIREANNSIAN 75ポイント76ポイント77ポイント 4時間前 (28子コメント)

[–]Kellermann -2ポイント-1ポイント0ポイント 3分前 (0子コメント)

[+]military_history スコアが基準値未満のコメント-68ポイント-67ポイント-66ポイント 3時間前 (26子コメント)

[–]EIREANNSIAN 40ポイント41ポイント42ポイント 3時間前 (18子コメント)

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[–]EIREANNSIAN 16ポイント17ポイント18ポイント 2時間前 (4子コメント)

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[–]EIREANNSIAN 13ポイント14ポイント15ポイント 2時間前 (2子コメント)

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[–]EIREANNSIAN 13ポイント14ポイント15ポイント 2時間前* (0子コメント)

[–]Spellchamp_Roamer 10ポイント11ポイント12ポイント 2時間前 (11子コメント)

[+]military_history スコアが基準値未満のコメント-7ポイント-6ポイント-5ポイント 2時間前 (4子コメント)

[–]Spellchamp_Roamer 11ポイント12ポイント13ポイント 2時間前 (3子コメント)

You're absolutely right. But while you're trying to come across as a conscientious and thoughtful human being right now, you're still a fucktard. Coming in and telling people that "Well, Ireland not being British isn't a fact guys!" is incredibly insensitive. That is a fact, the discussion was never about people, it's about the nation. So you can come in and try and change the subject to make it seem like you were being misunderstood all you like. But regardless of what you believe, trying to say that the Republic of Ireland, it's own country -with it's own nationality and identity- that it's separation from Great Britain isn't a fact. It makes you come across as an asshole. And then the rest of your comments just make it seem like you're trying to cover your own ass by making out like you care so much about cultural identity.

C'mon dude, you're not fooling anyone. Just admit you were wrong and give up the straw man shit.

[–]military_history -4ポイント-3ポイント-2ポイント 1時間前 (2子コメント)

trying to say that the Republic of Ireland, it's own country -with it's own nationality and identity- that it's separation from Great Britain isn't a fact.

I never said this either. Ireland is a separate country from the UK. FACT.

However, the issue of whether parts of the Island of Ireland should be in the UK or not? Not factual. It's contested. It was contested in the past during wars and Home Rule crises and the Easter Rising and the Civil War and it's contested today in the politics of Northern Ireland. There's a broad consensus on this today, which is great, and I personally agree with, but not everyone does, and however strong the consensus is, it never means you can boil subjective ideas of identity down to 'true' and 'false'.

Clearly this subject is very sensitive for some people but that's simply got no bearing on reason and logic. I don't believe anything I've said has been demonstrably incorrect and I think my reasoning is sound (apart from my tangential misunderstanding of how Northern Irish citizenship functions). I'm not going to say I'm wrong when I don't believe that to be the case, just to appease people. I stand by my original assertion that it's entirely appropriate to consider the Irish as a component in migration patterns across British history, because of the major historical interrelations between the British and the Irish.

[–]Spellchamp_Roamer 4ポイント5ポイント6ポイント 1時間前 (1子コメント)

Ireland is a separate country from the UK. FACT.

Thank you! And yes, I can appreciate some of your points, but in your earlier comments you simply didn't make them. You just came across as rude and obnoxious. This is not an easily discussed issue for a lot of people, I don't think anyone needs a reminder of anything that's happened between the 1970s and this century.

So as a word of friendly advice: When it comes to discussions with Irish people regarding the status of our country, if you're going to make a point, then make it. If you are at all flippant about Ireland's existence as it's own sovereign state, then you're just going to insult people. It's a matter of Irish pride, and it's something that our ancestors all fought and gave up a lot for.

Anyway that's enough politics. I'm off to bed. Goodnight.

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[+]military_history スコアが基準値未満のコメント-8ポイント-7ポイント-6ポイント 2時間前 (5子コメント)

[–]Phantomdd87 9ポイント10ポイント11ポイント 2時間前 (4子コメント)

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[+]VoiceofTheMattress スコアが基準値未満のコメント-39ポイント-38ポイント-37ポイント 13時間前 (50子コメント)

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[+]VoiceofTheMattress スコアが基準値未満のコメント-24ポイント-23ポイント-22ポイント 9時間前 (2子コメント)

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[+][削除されました] 12時間前 (23子コメント)

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[–]hughwphamill 11ポイント12ポイント13ポイント 5時間前 (0子コメント)

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[–]cianisgood 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 4時間前 (0子コメント)

[+]GwionB スコアが基準値未満のコメント-32ポイント-31ポイント-30ポイント 13時間前 (11子コメント)

[–]BoomierBoom 40ポイント41ポイント42ポイント 12時間前* (9子コメント)

It is not an innocuous geographic term. Is New Zealand part of the "Australian Isles"?

Read: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Isles_naming_dispute

the term "British" had never applied to Ireland until at least the late 16th century[34] and onwards. This period coincided with the Tudor conquest of Ireland, the subsequent Cromwellian activities in Ireland, the Williamite accession in Britain and theWilliamite War in Ireland—all of which resulted in severe impact on the Irish people, landowners and native aristocracy. From that perspective, the term "British Isles" is not a neutral geographical term but an unavoidably political one. Use of the name "British Isles" is often rejected in the Republic of Ireland, because its use implies a primacy of British identity over all the islands outside the United Kingdom, including the Irish state

It's the equivalent of referring to Poland as "greater Germany" because Hitler's conquest gave legitimacy to the term. That's the territory you're in here.

[+]GwionB スコアが基準値未満のコメント-37ポイント-36ポイント-35ポイント 11時間前* (6子コメント)

[–]BoomierBoom 49ポイント50ポイント51ポイント 11時間前 (3子コメント)

[+]GwionB スコアが基準値未満のコメント-13ポイント-12ポイント-11ポイント 3時間前 (2子コメント)

[–]EIREANNSIAN 5ポイント6ポイント7ポイント 2時間前 (0子コメント)

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[–]off_t0pic 26ポイント27ポイント28ポイント 13時間前 (18子コメント)

[+]argh523 スコアが基準値未満のコメント-34ポイント-33ポイント-32ポイント 12時間前 (17子コメント)

These "[arbitrary name] is offending me and implies that you're stupid and don't understand the details, rather than that you're just using this term in a way that is commonly used and can't be arsed to use needlessly verbose descriptions in your title to avoid offending little snowflakes like me"-posts get suuuuper anoying after a while.

This is one of the especially ridiculus cases, because the only description that is generally accepted by everyone and will not start a holy war is "These Isles". Yeah:

Proposed alternatives to renaming the British Isles to something more neutral include "Britain and Ireland",[3][8][9] "Atlantic Archipelago",[10] "Anglo-Celtic Isles",[11][12] the "British-Irish Isles"[13] and the Islands of the North Atlantic.[14] In documents drawn up jointly between the British and Irish governments, the archipelago is referred to simply as "these islands".[15]

Fuck this, you've had like a thousand years to sort this shit out, British Isles it is.

[–]BoomierBoom 38ポイント39ポイント40ポイント 12時間前 (15子コメント)

[+]argh523 スコアが基準値未満のコメント-47ポイント-46ポイント-45ポイント 12時間前 (14子コメント)

even though I'm ignorant of the history of something, I'm going to continue being ignorant in the face of the truth because I don't care, and therefore nobody should care

You don't give a shit. You like complaining. I've never seen a thread were an Irish person suggest a fucking alternative instead of just whining about it on the internet. I conclude that there's really only two kinds of Irish people: Those who like tho whine about this, and those who do not give a fuck. People who think this matters, but who's first reaction is not to cry bloody murder seem to be exceedingly rare.

because the language in question has geopolitical ramifications, effectively undermining the sovereign claim of an entire country.

So, you think not just redditors are stupid, you think all of humianity is completly braindead. Sure. Also, everyone should have to know and care about every minor naming disagreement in the world and use 10x more characters to write anything. Because that is one of the more pressing issues society faces these days. Great. Be sure to relexify "europe" 99% of the time your first instinct would be to use that word.

[–]BoomierBoom 41ポイント42ポイント43ポイント 12時間前 (9子コメント)

[+]argh523 スコアが基準値未満のコメント-39ポイント-38ポイント-37ポイント 11時間前 (5子コメント)

There is no need for an alternative if you don't assume the islands need to be arbitrarily grouped.

Fuck reality, for some reason an archipelago must not have a name.

Just say what you mean. Britain and Ireland, if you like.

There are about a billion ways in which "Britain and Ireland" is an ambiguous statement. Are you really that dense?

There is no good reason to talk about Britain and Ireland as a unified entity since 1925.

POLITICS! Everything is politics! There is on concievable scenario in which the physical location of the Republic of Ireland and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland would be refered to outside of a political context. Yes, even when we talk about 10'000 years ago, we must do so in the context of modern nation states. Everything else is inconcivable!

You'll generally find anyone doing so is assuming Ireland fits neatly under the British banner.

Again, you just assume everyone is stupid because they're using commonly accepted terms that you would like to censor. Yes, censor, because, as you've just told me, you think this this random piece of geography mustn't have an identifier.

[–]BoomierBoom 31ポイント32ポイント33ポイント 11時間前* (3子コメント)

[–]argh523 -3ポイント-2ポイント-1ポイント 11時間前* (1子コメント)

Yes, please ignore everything I'm saying and state that a commonly used term is commonly used, and that some people (not on /r/mapporn) don't know their geography/countries. Such tragedy. I'm sure you know all about all the nations and all the conflicts and all the geography and all the names.

Edit:

It's not an assumption.

Yes, it is an assumption, because you assume that everyone who would know about the situation and your no-solution-whatsoever would stop using the commonly used term. Well, I know about it, and the reason I (and presumably may of the downvoters) don't care is because all you care about is whining. I couldn't even stroke your little ego even if I wanted to, because you refuse to even suggest any sensible alternatives. And no, The Mother of all Ambiguity that is "Ireland and Britain" is not an alternative, that's just an invitation for more pointless arguments.

You know what I would love? If you guys would spam "Thisails" or something. You know, an actual fucking point beyond the fucking whining. But it's all just "IRELAND NOT BRITEN!!++!" - "We know but what should we call it then?" - "Oh I don't know just call it what it is" - "..."

[–]EliotDangerbus 5ポイント6ポイント7ポイント 2時間前 (0子コメント)

[–]EliotDangerbus 2ポイント3ポイント4ポイント 2時間前 (0子コメント)

[+]QuickSpore スコアが基準値未満のコメント-28ポイント-27ポイント-26ポイント 5時間前 (2子コメント)

Except the archipelago has millennia of shared history and geography. The shorthand of Ireland and Britain leaves out over 6,000 additional islands in the archipelago. The Isle of Man, Anglesey, the Isle of Wight, the Orkneys, the Hebrides, the Shetlands, and many more are part of the archipelago, but aren't part of either Ireland or Britain. So your preferred pedantic form is not only not the most common name throughout the English speaking world, it's not even pedantically correct.

The British Isles are politically offensive to a very small portion of English speakers. But the term also came into existence around the same time as modern English. If you want to supplant it, you're going to have to come up with a better and more inclusive term for the islands than just naming the two largest ones, because you guys are special snowflakes but the Shetlanders aren't.

And for the record? There are still plenty of reasons to refer to the archipelago as a whole: Referring to shared history, like this map. Referring to current events, for example if a major storm or a Icelandic volcanic eruption disrupts flight over the region. Or say an American was taking a vacation visiting multiple islands. Regional names like "Scandinavia" are common when nations share geography and history, like the UK and Ireland do.

[–]A_TRIPLE 22ポイント23ポイント24ポイント 4時間前 (1子コメント)

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[–]BoomierBoom 53ポイント54ポイント55ポイント 9時間前 (36子コメント)

Northern Ireland is part of the UK. Ireland (whole island or country) is not. So geographically, it's Britain and Ireland, politically it's UK and Ireland. British is not an appropriate adjective for Ireland (whole, geographical or nation state 5/6ths of the whole), and debatably inappropriate to apply to Northern Ireland either (since over 50% of the resident population identify as Irish, and many (a minority of) Unionists view themselves as Irish preferring to remain part of the UK, and celebrate Irish cultural traditions). The chequered history of Northern Ireland is not something at stake here (since I've already drawn enough ire for bringing the "British Isles" into a cut and dry argument that the encompassing "British" adjective is inappropriate). Judging by the voting pattern and childish responses I've gotten clearly some British people are still feeling possessive and upset over a 100 year old union split? A little sad that they'd react so strongly to the factual point that Ireland is not British.

[–]ksheep 7ポイント8ポイント9ポイント 8時間前* (6子コメント)

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[–]ksheep 3ポイント4ポイント5ポイント 3時間前* (0子コメント)

Great Britain is oftentimes called just Britain, although you are correct that the official term is Great Britain.

Looking into the history of the term "Great Britain", I found some potential issues, as the first recorded instance of the term was in the Almagest, a 2nd century AD treatise written by Claudius Ptolemy, where there large island was referred to as megális Brettanias (great Britain) and the smaller island (Ireland) was referred to as mikris Brettanias (little Britain), although a later work by him used Alwion (Albion) and Iwernia (Hibernia) to refer to the two islands. That said, other historiographers have used "Lesser Britain" to refer to other locations, such as Geoffrey of Monmouth, who in c. 1136 used the term to refer to the region of modern day Brittany.

EDIT: I should probably have noted that Britain derives from the Roman Britannia, which refers to the collection of islands, with each island having individual names (Albion, Hibernia, etc), although the name Britannia eventually came to refer specifically to Great Britain (specifically those parts south of Caledonia, roughly modern day Scotland) around the 1st century AD.

[–]EIREANNSIAN 5ポイント6ポイント7ポイント 3時間前 (0子コメント)

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On the contrary: 'Northern Ireland is part of the UK.' Your words. I'm not dealing with political semantics here. Part of Ireland is under the sovereign control of the UK, and even you would not deny that the UK is British. This is just the most obvious example of British involvement in Ireland. The Picts migrated from Great Britain to Ireland. The Normans colonised it. The Stuarts and the House of Orange fought to control Ireland and cement their control over the English crown by campaigning in Ireland. The Anglo-Irish were highly represented among British politicians and generals for centuries. Irish soldiers fought (voluntarily) for the British throughout the Empire and in the First World War. In short, the British and Irish are two intrinsically linked peoples. You're showing a deplorable refusal to acknowledge historical reality in your argument. It's entirely fair for you not to wish Ireland to be known as British now, but it's another thing altogether to try and write the British out of Irish history. I might as well insist that "Wales is not Anglo-Saxon", but however much I want to stress the legitimacy of my Celtic identity, I can't ignore history to do so. It's entirely appropriate for Ireland to be included on a map of historical migrations within Britain and sheer dogmatic ignorance to argue otherwise.

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[–]KaBar42 3ポイント4ポイント5ポイント 3時間前* (2子コメント)

and therefore the Island of Ireland really needs to be included on the map, right?

There's an area of Kentucky called the Kentucky Bend. It, in no way, touches Kentucky physically. In fact, it's connected to Tennessee. But, with no arguments by anyone, is wholly recognized as Kentucky land.

Northern Ireland, a very small part of the Irish island, is British territory. That, in no way, makes the Irish island British.

When you say the proper name of the UK, you don't say "The United Kingdom and Great Britain and Ireland", which, by the way, already signifies that Ireland is its own separate island from the English mainland. When you say the UK's proper name, it's "The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland".

So, no. Ireland is not a member of the British Isles. Ireland is Ireland.

Do you think the Navajo Nation would appreciate being called US territory? A part of the US? When they are, very clearly, a sovereign Native American country?

Edit: Closed quotation marks

[–]military_history -4ポイント-3ポイント-2ポイント 2時間前 (1子コメント)

Are you denying that Northern Ireland is on the Island of Ireland? Are you saying that the Island of Ireland stops at the Northern Irish border? Because I'm basing my idea of where the Island of Ireland is according to where the landmass is. Perhaps that's the source of the confusion.

I don't see the relevance of the Kentucky bend to this discussion. Perhaps if the people who lived there identified as Tennesseean, but were controlled by a foreign government of Kentuckians, there might be a parallel.

You say the name as "The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland" because the United Kingdom (aside from the smaller islands which it would be impractical to name) contains Great Britain (the big island) and Northern Ireland. It's a purely geographic description. Northern Ireland is named because it clearly isn't in Great Britain. This does not necessarily imply any national or cultural distinction.

already signifies that Ireland is its own separate island from the English mainland

Nobody's suggesting Ireland is part of mainland Britain. But the Scots and Welsh might bristle at being placed on an 'English' island.

Northern Ireland, a very small part of the Irish island, is British territory. That, in no way, makes the Irish island British.

This we can agree on, then. Only a part of the Island is British.

The Navajo nation is not part of the USA. But it's certainly part of North America. That's the appropriate comparison to the current discussion. If Navajo people decided they didn't like the term 'America' because it implied they were 'Americans', I don't think it would alter the geographic reality that they live in a place known exclusively as North America.

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