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Let's try this again... (self.cigars)

cjokrap[St. Louis, MO] が 投稿

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[–]BigNikiStyle[Windsor/Detroit] -1ポイント0ポイント  (42子コメント)

There were two posts recently that promoted this new rule. A birthday wish for a banned user who is a troll and a monthly themed trade with a banned user.

As I explained to /u/perthfan last night, banned users are banned for a reason. They are not allowed to participate with this community. The posts I mentioned above essentially allow a banned user to skirt their ban. I really can't understand how this is controversial, especially in the case of a troll. The trade post was made in good faith, I think, but if banned users are allowed to participate in a themed trade, then they're not really banned are they? So, we are not going to allow banned users to interact here. That's the entire point of the ban.

I understand that many members here might be friends and neighbours with a banned user. So go ahead and trade and bomb and do whatever you want with them.

However, those interactions are not welcome on this subreddit. The rule was discussed last night. It was decided that it was a rule. I was tasked with posting the rule on the rule page last night, got distracted with some family stuff, and neglected to do so. I will do that in the next few minutes after leaving this comment.

[–]cjokrap[St. Louis, MO][S] 11ポイント12ポイント  (10子コメント)

In this case, don't you think discussion with the user base is warranted? Because this really comes across as a decision to stifle discussion and alternative views.

[–]BigNikiStyle[Windsor/Detroit] 5ポイント6ポイント  (9子コメント)

Moderating this community is what we've volunteered to do. I think we try to be open as much as possible, but it's very difficult to do so when an entire subreddit is dedicated to hating us, all of our decisions, and posts private messages and communicates with us in bad faith.

At any time, if someone wants to discuss a ban, they just have to send a modmail.

[–]kritikal[Metro Day-Twah] 4ポイント5ポイント  (8子コメント)

I don't understand this logic, you're saying that you're not transparent because the sub members hate you? I think it's the other way around.

[–]BigNikiStyle[Windsor/Detroit] 4ポイント5ポイント  (7子コメント)

What I am saying is that it is extremely difficult to moderate in any way when there is a group of people who have dedicated themselves to doing things that make rules like this necessary, such as hypocritically pretend a troll, who would be the epitome of a user that they would hate if he were an actual new user, is an innocent new user, and then publicly tear their hair out here when their actions receive a response.

[–]cjokrap[St. Louis, MO][S] 4ポイント5ポイント  (1子コメント)

In retrospect, after this showing today, don't you agree that its a good idea to discuss rule changes BEFORE implementing them? And I'm not saying in closed doors wearing Masonic garb. I'm talking about with us? If you're "job" is to represent the community, don't you think you should gauge the community on things like this?

[–]vinberdon[Long Island, NY] -3ポイント-2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Is there something wrong with wearing a suit and an apron...? ):

[–]kritikal[Metro Day-Twah] 2ポイント3ポイント  (4子コメント)

I understand the examples, it's the logic and rhetoric that seems to reinforce the opinion of the community I'm speaking about.

[–]BigNikiStyle[Windsor/Detroit] 1ポイント2ポイント  (3子コメント)

I think 'community' in this case is a very obvious and transparent vote brigade from another subreddit.

But this has always been a sub where people just go along to get along. So then when 5, or 10 people, all members of another subreddit come here and scream about things, they get to say they have the mandate of the community. The vast, vast majority of people don't care one whit about this.

[–]kritikal[Metro Day-Twah] 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

No offense, but it sounds like this brigade is a red herring. Logic follows that if the vast majority of people don't care about this, then why not go along with the vocal group who would like to see change? Why not give it a go? What do you have to lose, more silent lurkers?

[–]BigNikiStyle[Windsor/Detroit] 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

I mean, a vocal 15 people get to dictate policy and every move the moderators make? How is that any better?

[–]kritikal[Metro Day-Twah] 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

I don't think it's a dictatorship of any sort when the discussion happens in the open and a consensus is reached. I think what's at the core of this is a sense that there are no checks and balances. Open discussion promotes that and can only exist if the mods are willing to open that dialogue when an issue comes up. Even if it has to be dealt with first, a dialogue should be opened in a timely manner.

[–]b_rite[North Jersey] 11ポイント12ポイント  (3子コメント)

I've traded with these users...

I have spoken with them...

I have split boxes with them...

What have you guys done? Banned them?

It's very easy to pass judgement from afar but to take a step back and actually consider things... now that's a whole nother ball game.

[–]perthfan[Columbia, MD] 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

Wait, you did what?! You split boxes with them. If you do that again, you are banned!

[–]BigNikiStyle[Windsor/Detroit] -4ポイント-3ポイント  (0子コメント)

I really have no idea what you're trying to say here. All I'm saying is that if banned users are taking part in monthly trades with a non-banned user, then they essentially aren't banned.

This has nothing to do with judgement or whatever you're talking about. I really don't see how it's controversial that we would not want a banned user to obliquely participate here with a non-banned user.

I mean, go ahead and bomb and trade with them all you like, you just can't post about it here.

[–]thawhizkid[North New Jersey] 10ポイント11ポイント  (4子コメント)

How is it skirting a ban though, if they can't comment and be active?

[–]perthfan[Columbia, MD] 10ポイント11ポイント  (0子コメント)

I have this same question. Me-----am didn't get to comment or post in my thread.

[–]BigNikiStyle[Windsor/Detroit] -4ポイント-3ポイント  (2子コメント)

When you're banned, you're not allowed to participate on this community. How is taking part in a monthly trade not exactly that? So, you can go ahead and bomb and trade with a banned user all you like, but that interaction is not welcome on /r/cigars.

[–]thawhizkid[North New Jersey] 6ポイント7ポイント  (1子コメント)

Understood, but if someone from the community wants to reach out to you, and trade with you, why shouldn't the unbanned person be able to report on it?

[–]b_rite[North Jersey] 14ポイント15ポイント  (21子コメント)

/u/melvinscam should never have been banned. You guys dropped the ball on his post, and should have removed it. His "harassment" was a case of heresay. You picked one user over the other.

/u/MyFirstandLastName - Well what the hell did he even do? What's the go to reply?

Ah I KNOW! He probably Doxxed someone. That's your catch all when you can't come up with a reason for banning someone isn't it?

What about /u/doughnut_cat - According the mods the guy was trolling... Was he trolling though?

Were users so enraged that they created posts and asked the mods to ban his ass? NO ONE CARED.

He is a nice guy. He likes cigars and is breaking into this hobby just like any of us. So what if he types the way he types?

You just alienated a new user. Good work.

There was also that slew of Sherlock Holmes Dashboard work you guys did to circumstantially blame a "glitter bomb" on one user.

Can you even prove it was him? Or is that purely speculation?

oh and then there's me.

/u/B_Rite - I loved this place. I used to split boxes here. I used to participate... but then you ruined it. You grew power hungry and just made the decisions that you and your team of moderators decided on. You don't give two shits about us or the community.

Fuck it. /r/cigars I'm out.

[–]vinberdon[Long Island, NY] 3ポイント4ポイント  (4子コメント)

If you are really out, that's upsetting. You probably don't like me... but I've come to enjoy your comments; you're awesome and help people do CC box splits and such; and you're a boss over in /r/cigarmarket on both selling great deals and calling people out on terrible deals.

You'll certainly be missed by many people.

[–]b_rite[North Jersey] 6ポイント7ポイント  (3子コメント)

I have no reason to dislike you or resent you. I'm just a member of the sub reddit like you.

and I said I was out, because I anticipate the mods will not reply to my "vitriol" in a positive light. I anticipate this will end in a ban like most others have in the past...

[–]vinberdon[Long Island, NY] 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

Well, that's nice to hear, at least. I, for one, hope that you don't go and that you don't get banned for voicing your concerns and wanting explanations of things.

Take care, either way, and hope to see you around. Here, CigarMarket, or wherever.

[–]Jolarbear 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

Are you trying to get banned?

[–]b_rite[North Jersey] 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

the fact that you even have to ask me that question is proof of how ridiculous things have gotten here.

NO I'm not trying to get banned. But I REFUSE to walk around on eggshells. I stated my opinion which fell on deaf ears, and now I risk getting banned?

Tell me... who here is pleased with the events that have transpired in the sub forum recently?

Is there anything good that has come out of all these impromptu rule implementations? What about bannings however justified they may be?

Were warnings issued for these bans?

we are never told anything... we are told to mind our own business... and we are told that everything is being done for the better good of the community...

If me saying that gets me banned... then so be it.

Perhaps I can see first hand this rumored appeal process in place that the mods keep telling me about.

Or I can see how well they explain the reason for the ban along with supporting information.

[–]BigNikiStyle[Windsor/Detroit] -3ポイント-2ポイント  (6子コメント)

Your vitriol here is unwarranted and most of your reasoning is fabricated or just plain wrong.

I will not be made to feel bad about the banning of a user who spent time following and harassing another user and PMing them.

I don't know what Two Names did, that may have been before my time.

DC was a troll. I won't shed a tear for a troll being banned. Every interaction he had here was trolling and he was banned for it temporarily, kept it up, and it was made permanent.

Tried our best with the glitter bomb, but I think it's completely nonsensical to be more upset at our attempt to find out who it was than the fact that someone was sent something like that.

I give many more than two shits about this community. I've taken on a part-time job with no pay to help moderate it. I care very deeply about this place. And there is an entire subreddit, of which you are a part, that is dedicated to ruining this place. If you find that community better, then happy trails. Apologies for the difference of opinion.

[–]MrFortune[Leesburg] 9ポイント10ポイント  (5子コメント)

I'm almost 100 percent certain there was no PMing involved. I think said user just called out said other user in a couple of threads. Far from constant harassment.

[–]BigNikiStyle[Windsor/Detroit] 1ポイント2ポイント  (4子コメント)

Harassment is harassment and I won't shed a tear for someone banned for doing it.

[–]cjokrap[St. Louis, MO][S] 3ポイント4ポイント  (3子コメント)

Even the person who was supposedly harassed has said they didn't feel it was deserving of a ban, especially since they did the ADULT thing and blocked the user. Shouldn't the "victim" have a say in the punishment?

[–]BigNikiStyle[Windsor/Detroit] 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

So the harassment was ok? That's what we should allow here?

[–]vinberdon[Long Island, NY] -2ポイント-1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Definitely not. But if he was given a chance to apologize (I doubt he would have), it would have made the process better.

[–]vinberdon[Long Island, NY] -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

Imagine what the world would be like if the victim determined the punishment of the offender.. hah!

Yes, I did block him, but he did also break the rules. I don't really care either way, but I do think a perma-ban was a bit much. If he continued it any longer though, after a warning (for this particular thing, as we know he was warned for other things), fuck him, he doesn't belong here. If he apologized and cut the shit, he'd be a-okay.