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[–]ThatisPunnyMcAfee 2016 115ポイント116ポイント  (164子コメント)

Pro-life libertarian here. The following is my opinion, although I realize since it is not based on concrete absolutes others can have a valid counter opinion:

Women control their bodies but the body of their the unborn also belong to themselves. I realize that that there is a burden applied to the mother, but that pales in comparison to the burden of death of the unborn in the case of abortion. The NAP applies to both parties.

[–]rchrdvnsn 65ポイント66ポイント  (25子コメント)

Yes, Thanks for speaking up. I am personally a pro life libertarian too, without any religious agenda behind my belief. "Control their bodies" is a vague phrase that sidesteps the details. All propaganda works like this. The Patriot Act is named that way because if you say you are against it, then they can reply "you are not a patriot?". In the same way if you are against pro-choice "you don't believe in freedom of choice?" or "you don't believe women should control their bodies". Pro lifers do the same thing "You don't believe in the right to life?" Catchphrases only aids in strengthening a tribal conviction, rather than clarifying a truth. It sidesteps a real debate around the details, a debate we should be having, rather than handing down stupid taglines with built in assumptions and word trickery.

[–]Barefoot_Raphsode 12ポイント13ポイント  (2子コメント)

I agree with everything you said, especially the bit about catchphrases contributing to tribalism.

I don't know what exactly to call myself. I believe that before the fetus is "alive", the right to choose should be with the mother, but after the fetus has viability, they should have all the rights that a newborn has. The medically accepted time is 26 weeks, or somewhere around there. The exact time should be left up to people much smarter than myself. I would think that there will be some president setting legal cases needed in order to hash out the details.

[–]f3lbane 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I believe that before the fetus is "alive", the right to choose should be with the mother, but after the fetus has viability, they should have all the rights that a newborn has.

You are not alone.

[–]fissionman1 7ポイント8ポイント  (20子コメント)

What does it mean to be a pro life libertarian? You want the government out of your life except to prevent abortions?

[–]prospect12 33ポイント34ポイント  (12子コメント)

It means that your Liberty ends where someone else's begins. The child's freedom to live trumps the woman's right to choose in this case.

[–]talaqen -2ポイント-1ポイント  (1子コメント)

So the current legal basis for RvW is viability. Pro-Lifers typically want to stop abortions at the moment of conception. Therein lies the rub. In a fully individualist, libertarian sense - a fetus would have rights only in-so-far as they are self-contained. You have no right to my body, and I none to yours. It is a woman's right to provide or not-provide "womb services." So long as the fetus is not "prevented" from leaving the womb and not damaged (in and of itself), it's rights are not violated. It does not have rights to the woman's nutrients, to the blood, or the very space of the womb without imposing on the woman's self-determination. Personal rights by their very intrinsic nature DO NOT demand that I care for my neighbor, fetus or otherwise. It is ultimately my free choice to help or not help.

Which means... if you're going to look at the hyper-rational, libertarian, personal-rights view of abortion, you end up in a scenario where a woman can remove the fetus in anyway she deems fit, provided that the fetus is not damaged or hurt and allowed to attempt viability on its own. So abortions are legal... but suddenly the become much more protracted and gruesome for both entities. Ultimately a <22weeks fetus will likely die (until we have some awesome futuristic artificial wombs). But, hey, their rights have not been violated. The mother and child separated on fair terms. Each was allowed to survive by its own account.

TL;DR: Sorry... Libertarianism and the typical Pro-life stance on conception are, in fact, mutually exclusive points of view.

[–]distinctvagueness -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

Not to mention giving rights to a humanish thing at conception is problematic when about half of them naturally miscarry. And Tracking pregnancies (which is tracking sex and periods) and determining which degree of "murder" happened is extremely invasive or impossible.

[–]Fantabuliciouskinda libertarian i guess, that cool? 8ポイント9ポイント  (6子コメント)

A pro-life libertarian believes that the definition of a human begins with a day 0 of life beginning at the day of a successful conception.

By this, the government would hope to prevent facilitating the killing of humans by stopping abortion, as that is what it is - killing humans, by that definition.

I'm really on the fence, though. Abortion halted a horrifying rise in crime.

[–]fissionman1 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

the government would hope to prevent facilitating the killing of humans

That's where I see pro-life and libertarian views clashing. With the definition of what defines life at the scholarly level and completely subjective, why would we want to give the power to define what a human is to the government?

Do we give the government the right to step in and stop necessary medical care to a woman? Do we give the government any right at all in health care decisions relating to a pregnant woman?

I see the enforcement side of pro-life stances and libertarianism as at complete odds.

[–]Fantabuliciouskinda libertarian i guess, that cool? 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

My problem with this is saying that the woman is the only one that matters in this situation. Obviously, she's not, and no matter the suffering of birth and expenses she may have to go through, is a human life in the making worth any less?

[–]mrfurious2k 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Abortion halted a horrifying rise in crime.

So does murdering people and putting dissidents into a gulag (see North Korea). Doesn't mean it's justified.

[–]yourkidisdumb 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

"Abortion halted a horrifying rise in crime."...The book Freakanomics goes in to quite a bit of detail about this.

[–]Fantabuliciouskinda libertarian i guess, that cool? 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I know! Fascinating book.

[–]urbanpsycho 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

that's because many of these children would have been born to a fatherless home.

[–]ArmyTrainingSir -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

Or you were raped and don't want to carry your rapist's child to term, etc. Yes, lots of stupid taglines and word trickery there!

[–]logophage 27ポイント28ポイント  (56子コメント)

The debate WRT abortion is one of personhood and not life. A human skin cell is alive; we don't debate the rights of skin cells. While personhood is a bit of a nebulous demarcation, I am confident that a two-week embryo has about as much personhood as flour, sugar, butter & water in a mixing bowl is a cake.

[–]GeneralConrowWallace 11ポイント12ポイント  (39子コメント)

So what makes someone a person?

[–]fissionman1 10ポイント11ポイント  (3子コメント)

The better question is, does the government have the right to define when life begins such that they can legislate abortion laws?

[–]baddox 7ポイント8ポイント  (1子コメント)

Well, can the government legislate murder laws? If so, then the government clearly has to have some concept of when life begins.

[–]distinctvagueness 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

How can the government define the difference between a natural miscarriage and an abortion without resorting to witch trials?

[–]ephemerealism 10ポイント11ポイント  (5子コメント)

Viability outside the womb.

[–]SofaKing65 7ポイント8ポイント  (2子コメント)

Then how can someone be convicted of murder for killing a fetus?

[–]baddox 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

You mean someone other than the pregnant woman, I presume? It would, at the bare minimum, be some form of assault if someone killed a fetus without the consent of the woman.

[–]yougonnagetit -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

In such a situation you'd presume the difference between the fetus killed in a murder versus the fetus aborted was the intent of the mother to bring the baby to term or not. That falls in line with the "her body her choice" reasoning but its an interesting inquiry.

What about the fetus killed in a murder the day before a scheduled abortion? I suspect its still murder, since the fetus was in fact killed by the murderer and not in an abortion procedure, despite logically the end result being no different.

[–]-Hellfire-Classical Liberal 0ポイント1ポイント  (9子コメント)

Viability outside of the womb is what some say. I personally don't think a newborn baby is a person, but that's arbitrary.

[–]daguise73 8ポイント9ポイント  (5子コメント)

Also, viability outside the womb is constantly shifting. Today an unborn baby is viable much sooner than they used to be.

[–]fissionman1 3ポイント4ポイント  (2子コメント)

Lots of people as the "without medical intervention" to the viability outside of the womb clause.

[–]daguise73 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

Okay, that makes more sense. Thanks for your input-upvoted ya :)

However, I've got to be honest here, defining whether or not a fetus is a person based on if they can survive doesn't sit too well with me. Would we define it based on a survival rate? Like 50% of babies born at this length of pregnancy live? I wonder if genetics and diet should be factored in to when an abortion is legal.

[–]fissionman1 -2ポイント-1ポイント  (0子コメント)

That's for the scholars to debate. As long as the government doesn't define life as beginning at conception (which it has no right to do), I'm ok.

[–]SuperstringTheory -1ポイント0ポイント  (1子コメント)

No, it is not MUCH sooner. Premies have a much higher survival rate but the viability limit has moved little.

[–]daguise73 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Umm, isn't viability the same thing as survivability? I mean it isn't like babies are self sufficient or something...

[–]algag 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

If you don't think they're a person, where do you, personally, draw the line on abortion?

[–]grojodoo 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

We should draw it at 3 years after conception.

That way we're all free to do what we want and we're all outraged because people can legally kill their kids. No sides arguing who's right, we all agree it's wrong and we move on with our lives and to stuff that actually matters.

I mean holy shit, you can legally have a doctor amputate a chunk of your babies dick in the US for no reason. Let's not pretend anyone cares about the rights of a baby here.

[–]-Hellfire-Classical Liberal 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Honestly, I think the line should be third trimester, because it seems to be a fairly good metric for fetus viability.

[–]logophage 1ポイント2ポイント  (18子コメント)

That's what the discussion is about, isn't it? What constitutes a person?

[–]GeneralConrowWallace 9ポイント10ポイント  (17子コメント)

You argued that it was about personhood, so I want to know what makes someone a person.

[–]crushedbycookie 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

There are a number of philosophers who have weighed in on this issue. Would you like to be pointed at some. I argue that personhood is not the relevant metric in my reply to /u/logophage though. While it is relevant in the case of infanticide postpartum, it is merely a thing worth considering when deciding whether or not to abort. It is not a constraint on your right to do so because of property rights.

On the infanticide comment, if one were to define murder as the unjust killing of a person, and then (successfully) argue that babies are not persons then it would follow that killing babies is not murder.

[–]logophage 0ポイント1ポイント  (15子コメント)

I argued that the debate is about personhood and not life. What makes someone a person is the discussion to be had and not what makes something alive.

[–]daguise73 6ポイント7ポイント  (14子コメント)

Please answer the question generalconrowwallace asked. What makes someone a person? Id like to hear your view so I'll offer my opinion. I think science would back me up, a complete set of DNA (sperm and egg after conception) constitutes a whole person.

If you don't care to have this debate I understand, but I'm curious what libertarians think about this issue.

[–]fissionman1 0ポイント1ポイント  (6子コメント)

A viable fetus. One that can survive by itself outside of the womb without medical intervention. Anything less than that and it's a part of the woman.

[–]shoesafe 6ポイント7ポイント  (2子コメント)

One that can survive by itself outside of the womb without medical intervention.

Not sure this is fully defined. Newborns and preemies cannot survive by themselves outside of the womb, since they need food, water, shelter, etc.

I think what you mean is that, if the child can be removed and live, it's a person even though it depends on others for food, water and shelter. I'm not sure why medical assistance is different from assistance with the other necessities of life, like food and water, that a baby is too weak and senseless to acquire by itself.

Also, this implies that a child who is born at full term, but who needs medical intervention to survive, is not a person. That's a relatively radical position, so I'm not sure it's what you meant.

For example, I had a tiny cousin who had some variant of trisomy (Down Syndrome is the most famous trisomy), and if my cousins weren't super religious she'd probably have been terminated. She was a "blue baby" and needed to be in an oxygenated environment at the hospital. She eventually succumbed to infections. Since she required medical assistance for much or all of the time from her birth to her death, would that mean she was never a person with rights? She died more than a year after conception, and months after birth, but spent basically the whole time in a medical crisis.

Your stated position is basically half a sentence, so it lacks nuance and necessarily implies that my cousin was still a part of the mother. That's way in opposition to how most people conceptually perceive of personhood. I suspect your true position is more nuanced, but you've stated it too simply to allow for my late cousin to be a separate person.

I mean, technically your position implies that a "bubble boy" situation could have a baby moving immediately from womb to a bubble, grow up in the bubble, and be a full-grown "bubble man" that is technically still part of his mom because he requires medical intervention to live. By your rule, it applies even if his mom dies before he does.

My point is that I think you need to accommodate more nuance in your definition of person.

[–]fissionman1 -1ポイント0ポイント  (1子コメント)

this implies that a child who is born at full term, but who needs medical intervention to survive, is not a person.

No, it does not. My statement specifically pointed out that I was referring to a fetus and not a birthed child. Once you're born you're a person, regardless of what legal system or side of the argument you're on. If you DO survive outside the womb, it's irrelevant because you're no longer a fetus and the personhood rights associated with birth supercede those of the ability to survive without medical intervention.

[–]daguise73 -1ポイント0ポイント  (2子コメント)

Do you have a problem with the fact that eventually a fertilized egg will be viable?

[–]Nickdangerthirdi 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

Eventually is the key word, it's not viable now, so that's a moot point.

[–]fissionman1 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Huh? Not sure I understand the question.

[–]logophage 0ポイント1ポイント  (3子コメント)

That's pretty close to my notion of personhood. A human person is someone who can be regarded as an individual where an individual at a minimum is a single and separate entity.

[–]daguise73 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Ahh, I see. If i understand your definition, a partial birth abortion is okay. Not something I agree with, but thanks for sharing.

[–]shoesafe -1ポイント0ポイント  (1子コメント)

A human person is someone who can be regarded as an individual where an individual at a minimum is a single and separate entity.

Single and separate? So it's open season on conjoined twins?

[–]daguise73 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

No need to be hyperbolic, I think you know that's not what logophage meant.

[–]SkepticalMutt -3ポイント-2ポイント  (2子コメント)

Why does it matter what this guy, in particular, defines personhood as, in general? Is he the one who will be setting a national standard? Is his opinion to be the meter-stick by which fetuses are measured for legislative purposes?

Oh, I get it. You can't think of a counter to his position, so you attack the Person. Got'cha.

[–]daguise73 4ポイント5ポイント  (1子コメント)

I'm not attacking anyone :l I'm merely asking because I thought this sub migt be a good place for a more thought-provoking discussion. I can see you aren't interested in that though :P

[–]logophage 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

It's a great place for this discussion. It's important to frame the debate into the right categories, first. Once we get wide agreement on the framing, I'm happy to put in my two-cents for the meat of discussion.

[–]crushedbycookie 2ポイント3ポイント  (11子コメント)

I actually think the personhood debate is irrelevant as well. The issue is mere property rights. Grant that the fetus is alive, grant that it is a person, you still have give an account for why a women owes it her body. The thing is rights generally incur a negative duty on others. That is if I have a right to A, then you have duty not to interfere with that right. You don't have a duty to take a positive act and enable my pursuit of A or to help me if someone else violates my right to A. You do not have a right to anothers body even if your ability to stay alive depends on it. A right to life does not constitute a right to be alive (without qualification). Judith Thomson laid some of this out in defense of her (what i think is too weak) position in her famous piece, "A Defense of Abortion". Here is the link and the relevant excerpt: http://spot.colorado.edu/~heathwoo/Phil160,Fall02/thomson.htm

  1. Let us call the view that abortion is impermissible even to save the mother's life "the extreme view." I want to suggest first that it does not issue from the argument I mentioned earlier without the addition of some fairly powerful premises. Suppose a woman has become pregnant, and now learns that she has a cardiac condition such that she will die if she carries the baby to term. What may be done for her? The fetus, being to life, but as the mother is a person too, so has she a right to life. Presumably they have an equal right to life. How is it supposed to come out that an abortion may not be performed? If mother and child have an equal right to life, shouldn't we perhaps flip a coin? Or should we add to the mother's right to life her right to decide what happens in and to her body, which everybody seems to be ready to grant--the sum of her rights now outweighing the fetus's right to life?

The most familiar argument here is the following. We are told that performing the abortion would he directly killings the child, whereas doing nothing would not be killing the mother, but only letting her die. Moreover, in killing the child, one would be killing an innocent person, for the child has committed no crime, and is not aiming at his mother's death. And then there are a variety of ways in which this might be continued. (1) But as directly killing an innocent person is always and absolutely impermissible, an abortion may not be performed. Or, (2) as directly killing an innocent person is murder, and murder is always and absolutely impermissible, an abortion may not be performed. Or, (3) as one's duty to refrain from directly killing an innocent person is more stringent than one's duty to keep a person from dying, an abortion may not be performed. Or, (4) if one's only options are directly killing an innocent person or letting a person die, one must prefer letting the person die, and thus an abortion may not be performed.

Some people seem to have thought that these are not further premises which must be added if the conclusion is to be reached, but that they follow from the very fact that an innocent person has a right to life. But this seems to me to be a mistake, and perhaps the simplest way to show this is to bring out that while we must certainly grant that innocent persons have a right to life, the theses in (1) through (4) are all false. Take (2), for example. If directly killing an innocent person is murder, and thus is impermissible, then the mother's directly killing the innocent person inside her is murder, and thus is impermissible. But it cannot seriously be thought to be murder if the mother performs an abortion on herself to save her life. It cannot seriously be said that she must refrain, that she must sit passively by and wait for her death. Let us look again at the case of you and the violinist There you are, in bed with the violinist, and the director of the hospital says to you, "It's all most distressing, and I deeply sympathize, but you see this is putting an additional strain on your kidneys, and you'll be dead within the month. But you have to stay where you are all the same. because unplugging you would be directly killing an innocent violinist, and that's murder, and that's impermissible." If anything in the world is true, it is that you do not commit murder, you do not do what is impermissible, if you reach around to your back and unplug yourself from that violinist to save your life.

The main focus of attention in writings on abortion has been on what a third party may or may not do in answer to a request from a woman for an abortion. This is in a way understandable. Things being as they are, there isn't much a woman can safely do to abort herself. So the question asked is what a third party may do, and what the mother may do, if it is mentioned at all, if deduced, almost as an afterthought, from what it is concluded that third parties may do. But it seems to me that to treat the matter in this way is to refuse to grant to the mother that very status of person which is so firmly insisted on for the fetus. For we cannot simply read off what a person may do from what a third party may do. Suppose you filed yourself trapped in a tiny house with a growing child. I mean a very tiny house, and a rapidly growing child--you are already up against the wall of the house and in a few minutes you'll be crushed to death. The child on the other hand won't be crushed to death; if nothing is done to stop him from growing he'll be hurt, but in the end he'll simply burst open the house and walk out a free man. Now I could well understand it if a bystander were to say. "There's nothing we can do for you. We cannot choose between your life and his, we cannot be the ones to decide who is to live, we cannot intervene." But it cannot be concluded that you too can do nothing, that you cannot attack it to save your life. However innocent the child may be, you do not have to wait passively while it crushes you to death Perhaps a pregnant woman is vaguely felt to have the status of house, to which we don't allow the right of self-defense. But if the woman houses the child, it should be remembered that she is a person who houses it.

I should perhaps stop to say explicitly that I am not claiming that people have a right to do anything whatever to save their lives. I think, rather, that there are drastic limits to the right of self-defense. If someone threatens you with death unless you torture someone else to death, I think you have not the right, even to save your life, to do so. But the case under consideration here is very different. In our case there are only two people involved, one whose life is threatened, and one who threatens it. Both are innocent: the one who is threatened is not threatened because of any fault, the one who threatens does not threaten because of any fault. For this reason we may feel that we bystanders cannot interfere. But the person threatened can.

In sum, a woman surely can defend her life against the threat to it posed by the unborn child, even if doing so involves its death. And this shows not merely that the theses in (1) through (4) are false; it shows also that the extreme view of abortion is false, and so we need not canvass any other possible ways of arriving at it from the argument I mentioned at the outset.

[–]shoesafe 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

Technically, this justifies removal rather than termination. You eject a trespasser, you don't murder one. Abortion is usually accomplished by some chemical or mechanical destruction of the child. If you had a trespasser who raided your pantry, and you threw acid in his face and hacked him up with a hatchet, you'd not be acting consistent with most notions of libertarian justice.

Of course, the common law has long recognized that there is an exception to trespassing - "any port in a storm" - that may allow trespass to save the life and health of the trespasser. For example, a ship using a dock without permission to ride out a storm, or a victim fleeing pursuers by trespassing in an orchard. The normal rule is that it would not be just to eject the good-faith trespasser if doing so would clearly expose them to excessive risk of death or serious bodily harm. However, compensation for the trespass is appropriate, particularly if actual damages were incurred.

Moreover, common law generally does not allow punishment of trespass where the trespasser was not voluntarily trespassing. In fact, that's a general rule of intent and volitional action. If a group of guys carry you and then throw you into somebody else's property, the trespass is committed by the group of guys, not by you as their thrown victim.

So to be a good hypothetical, it's as though somebody else threw a comatose man onto your property, which is trespass by the thrower because it lacks your permission, but if you eject the comatose man you know for sure he will be eaten by the ravenous wolves and badgers outside your property. So the comatose man is not himself culpable, and he will certainly die if you eject him. You know that rescuers are coming to retrieve the comatose man, but they cannot be there for at least 7 or 8 months.

If you do nothing, the comatose man will probably live (let's pretend that somehow your property is giving him passive sustenance and he'll probably be okay) but at the cost of some of your property's nutrients. If you drag his body off your property, he'll almost certainly die. You might argue that it's acceptable to take affirmative steps to kill this man, for the sake of your property. But I think many people would call that an injustice, since the comatose man was not culpable in the crime and in any case the defense of property may not justify lethal responses against innocents.

I suppose you might just argue that defense of property justifies lethal force against innocents. In which case, you may have a consistent argument. But I think that's an unsatisfying position. I mean, suppose hypothetically a nerd is being teased and shoved by aggressors and the nerd tripped in the direction of your property, in a way almost certain to damage or destroy your property. But you have a powerful shotgun. If you fire your shotgun, the blast will reorient the nerd's body in a way that saves your property but the blast will also kill the nerd. Would it be justifiable to fire a lethal shotgun blast that saves your property but kills the nerd? Does it matter how valuable your property is, or how extensive the damage might be? What if it's a previously undiscovered Faberge egg that would be 100% obliterated by any contact with the nerd? What if it's a fun-sized piece of chocolate that would be rendered slightly less appetizing if it's a little smushed?

What I'm getting at is that the "defense of life" issue doesn't apply to most abortions. In those cases, the woman's liberty is at stake, and her general well-being, lost nutrients, lost strength, and emotional consequences. We're talking about property rights that are less crucial than the right to life. Are those rights enough to justify killing a human person? Could you kill an innocent adult person in order to avoid 9 months of jail time? Or 9 months of being wheelchair-bound? I'm not sure most people would accept that tradeoff as just.

[–]crushedbycookie 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I suppose you might just argue that defense of property justifies lethal force against innocents.

Yup.

But really I would argue that the defense of property justifies violating the rights of others precisely as far as must be done to ensure the defense of your property.

Does it matter how valuable your property is, or how extensive the damage might be?

Get your dirty utilitarianism out of here. To answer the question, I'll just say that it doesn't (at least for the sake of discussion, of course the value of the things I possess will influence to what degree i am willing to defend my property)

I mean, suppose hypothetically a nerd is being teased and shoved by aggressors and the nerd tripped in the direction of your property, in a way almost certain to damage or destroy your property. But you have a powerful shotgun. If you fire your shotgun, the blast will reorient the nerd's body in a way that saves your property but the blast will also kill the nerd.

Why is it a nerd? Okay, anyways. I will agree that firing the shotgun would be an unjust response. But that is, at least in part, because it probably needlessly infringes on the nerds right to life. I could just grab the kid or push him over or throw the shotgun at him or move my property. Rights are not normative but rather descriptive. They supply the basic rules. I might indeed argue that I have the right to fire my shotgun and yet hold that I ought not to. Beyond that it's really an interesting point and I'll have to think on it. To return to the heart of the matter

While one may be found alongside a possible defense of infanticide in personhood, there is no defense of killing the fetus in the argument I provided. It does justify removing the fetus, placing the fetus on the table, and coldly watching it starve to death, while I would not argue this is a just society (as in is the way society ought be). This same argument applies post-partum to the child. That is to say the mother has no obligation to provide the things the child needs to survive at any point. That says nothing for what I think she should do.

I'll also reiterate that the right to life is not only (and not some times not even) the right to be alive. It does not make sense to argue that one can have a right to be alive, everyone will one day die.

Could you kill an innocent adult person in order to avoid 9 months of jail time?

No, and I don't see where property rights comes into this. It might be justified with a some novel Hedonic calculus, but not on a rights account as far as i can see.

We're talking about property rights that are less crucial than the right to life.

This is false.

[–][削除されました]  (4子コメント)

[deleted]

    [–]TheGuildedCunt 0ポイント1ポイント  (3子コメント)

    No, you can just take it to a firehouse...done.

    [–]shoesafe 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

    I think the issue is whether you can abandon a child to the elements, in the absence of any willing takers. Most people, even ancaps, would say you can't. That there is some duty to leave the child in some reasonable level of safety.

    The property rights argument above is that a human person can be left to die, if the property's owner revokes their permission to use the property. The argument explicitly conceded, arguendo, that the fetus is a person. So the question is whether a baby person should have a different set of rights than the fetus person.

    This is why most people argue that the fetus has no rights or fewer rights than a full-term baby.

    [–]TheGuildedCunt -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Yeah, I get the argument. I was just being facetious. As for the actual discussion, I couldn't possibly be more pro-choice. But, I also wish a pandemic would wipe half the population. So, I may not have the same reverence for human life that some people seem to have. Honestly, I don't even understand the vitriol behind the debate. We don't seem to give a shit about human beings already alive...why are people so butthurt about theoretical humans? Maybe when 3/4 of the planet isn't hungry, and living in squalor, we can move on to this moral quandary.

    [–]logophage 0ポイント1ポイント  (3子コメント)

    That's a pretty interesting take on it. I don't think it necessarily conflicts with my point though. While we can discuss the morality of owning a person, it is widely accepted that doing such is both morally wrong and illegal. Your property right argument works because the fetus is not a person.

    [–]crushedbycookie 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

    It works regardless of whether or not the fetus is a person. If the fetus is a person they do not own the mothers body. If the fetus is not a person than there is no-one to make a claim to the mother's body.

    [–]logophage 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

    OIC. I was viewing it from the mother's perspective as it's her womb that's being occupied. From the fetus' perspective, if it's a person, then it acts as an involuntary tenant of that womb. If it's not a person, then it's an object occupying the womb.

    [–]crushedbycookie 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Should read my conversation with the other respondent. He makes good points.

    [–]TheGuildedCunt 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Until you can tell a good story it should be on the table...it would definitely give single mothers some real leverage with male children.

    [–]metalliskamutualist -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

    and legal recognition of that personhood.

    [–]GeneralConrowWallace -1ポイント0ポイント  (1子コメント)

    Wouldn't the cake metaphor analogy be more accurate if all the ingredients were mixed, but the cake was still baking?

    [–]logophage 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Bit of a nit: it's a cake analogy and not a metaphor. But, yes, the analogy could be made more precise if it's really important to you :).

    [–]jthengreen party 19ポイント20ポイント  (52子コメント)

    Well we don't consider adults to be persons anymore when regular brain activity stops. We consider them to be dead, even if they are biologically still "on". Since regular brain activity doesn't start in fetuses until about 25 weeks, the same standard can be applied. Fetuses might be biologically "on" prior to 25 weeks, but they don't meet the criteria for alive persons.

    Women create fetuses with their bodies, so they're a product of their labor (even if that labor is autonomous). Property rights apply before personhood rights.

    [–]KensterFox 7ポイント8ポイント  (3子コメント)

    Property rights apply before personhood rights.

    Explain this statement. Locke's "life, liberty, and property" certainly seem to be in that order for a reason.

    [–]jthengreen party 4ポイント5ポイント  (2子コメント)

    Chronological order. Not order of priority.

    [–]KensterFox 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

    Thanks for clearing that up.

    If you're essentially saying that the woman has property rights over her offspring before the offspring becomes a "person" (whenever that happens) and can dispose of it without infringing upon the rights it doesn't have yet, then I'm with you.

    [–]Brodusgus 11ポイント12ポイント  (12子コメント)

    I had no idea so many women were the Virgin Mary and didn't need sperm.

    [–]jthengreen party 6ポイント7ポイント  (7子コメント)

    If I willingly give you half the blueprints to a house, you draw up the other half, and you gather all the materials and do all the work building the house yourself, but decide to demolish the thing before you even get to the roof, I can't stop you from doing that. Now, if you finish the house, I have some interest in it since you shouldn't take all the credit for my part of the plans and shouldn't freely be sharing those designs with others. But that's just a for a finished house.

    Another analogy. I whistle a melody. You incorporate that melody into a song you're working on, but then scrap the idea entirely. I can't force you to finish the song. But if you do finish the song, I have some rights to the distribution.

    [–]Sir_Schadenfreude 12ポイント13ポイント  (5子コメント)

    Your first analogy doesn't apply: The blueprint and materials are intertwined.

    Also, in both situations, the architect/whistler wouldn't be forced to remain a financial stakeholder should the builder/musician decide to complete their project.

    [–]jthengreen party -2ポイント-1ポイント  (3子コメント)

    The blueprint and materials are intertwined.

    If I give you a toothpick and you glue it onto a house you're building, it gives me no additional rights to the house. Yes this is apt. A spermocyte is 1 cell. A 2 week old fetus is 15,000 cells.

    You can argue that the inability to forfeit father's rights is unjust. But if I were forced to pay utilities on a house you built with plans I half-wrote assuming it was fully built, that doesn't justify me telling you that you can't destroy a house you've started in that situation.

    Legally, if I help you commit arson, I'm responsible for part of the blame/damages. But if I help you commit an act of arson you don't follow through with, I have no recourse to make you follow through with it.

    [–]Sir_Schadenfreude 7ポイント8ポイント  (1子コメント)

    Yes this is apt.

    No, it is not, if the toothpick contains self-replicating code for half the remaining toothpicks. Look at that—7,500 in two weeks!

    And the point of the second paragraphette was to show the overarching inadequacy of your analogies; for analogizing the legal ramifications of the reproductive process allows you to build an army of strawmen to knock down, none of which encompasses the full picture. What is a fetus: a building, its arson, or a catchy tune?

    [–]MemeticParadigm -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

    No, it is not, if the toothpick contains self-replicating code for half the remaining toothpicks.

    But the self-replicating code in the sperm cell is 99%+ redundant with what's already in the egg cell.

    The Y chromosome contains ~25M base pairs, and the whole human genome contains ~3B base pairs. The self-replicating code for 99% of the necessary genes (100% for female offspring) is already contained in the original egg cell. Plus, 100% of the resources for building are brought to the site and prepared for usage by the mother's biological machinery.

    The sperm cell contributes a scant few unique genes, only half the time, and it doesn't do any of the actual labor of construction. It's like giving significant credit to a guy who did only two things - he told someone else to start working (doing no work/coordination himself), and he walked around tweaking a few random things during construction, generally causing as much harm as good in the process.

    [–]GalacticCmdr 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

    The house example is just bad unless the house cannot be built without the toothpick. In you example that is clearly not the case.

    [–]Malfeasantsocialist -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

    The blueprint and materials are intertwined.

    Can you explain your position? Are you assuming the father is providing food for the mother? Because that's a valid consideration, but hardly intertwining of materials and design.

    [–]Brodusgus 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

    and it's only half of a contribution

    [–]dazed111 0ポイント1ポイント  (3子コメント)

    what are saying?

    [–]Brodusgus 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

    What do you mean..

    [–]duuuh -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

    He's asking why you're such an ass.

    [–]LogicAndMorality 4ポイント5ポイント  (23子コメント)

    What does "regular brain activity" mean? Does this mean some kinds of mentally retarded people or people in a coma are not alive persons?

    [–]jthengreen party 8ポイント9ポイント  (21子コメント)

    People with mental disabilities, in comas, or PVT (persistent vegetative states) are not brain dead.

    I do not mean regular in the sense of "normal", but regular in the sense of "ongoing". (Like, I regularly wash my hands.) Brain dead individuals and early fetuses might have "flashes" of brain activity, but even extremely unresponsive individuals have continuous brain activity.

    A little more info: http://science.howstuffworks.com/life/inside-the-mind/human-brain/brain-death3.htm

    [–]osborn18 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

    But people wake up from comas. All the time.

    Am not an expert but i dont think being a "vegetable" and being in a coma is necesarily the same thing.

    If the brain has flashes then by definition is alive. Be it a fetus or an adult person.

    [–]Troop-the-Loop 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

    A coma is not the same as brain death.

    Comas can lead to brain death. A coma itself is not the same as being brain dead.

    Edit: for example, a coma patient's pupils will still dilate and respond to light. A brain dead person's pupils won't.

    [–]Autodidact420Left Libertarian 0ポイント1ポイント  (18子コメント)

    That's a shitty way to go about it though. If you got put into a coma and it was known that you'd wake up in a month it'd be pretty shitty if it was legal to kill you because #yolo this guy doesn't have brain activity atm

    [–]Troop-the-Loop 1ポイント2ポイント  (17子コメント)

    Being in a coma is not the same as being brain dead. Being brain dead is decidedly more extreme.

    Comas lead to brain death. A coma itself is not brain death.

    Edit: for example, a coma patient's pupils will still dilate and respond to light. A brain dead person's pupils won't.

    [–]Autodidact420Left Libertarian -3ポイント-2ポイント  (16子コメント)

    Okay. You're brain dead for a month, but you'll wake up (fully healed) after. Mind if I kill you before you wake up now?

    Edit:There is no recovery from brain death- great, that's either a false analogy then (his argument is moot because they are not similar after all) or we can entertain the hypothetical that you can wake up from brain death regardless of how it works in real life (because you can be born)

    Again, I understand you can't wake up IRL. That's not the point - the point is that it's a false analogy unless we modify it.

    [–]SuperstringTheory 2ポイント3ポイント  (3子コメント)

    There is no recovery from brain death.

    [–]Autodidact420Left Libertarian 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

    jesus chroist ya'll are missing the point so i'll make it clearer in my OP I guess.

    There is no recovery from brain death- great, that's either a false analogy then (his argument is moot because they are not similar after all) or we can entertain the hypothetical that you can wake up from brain death regardless of how it works in real life (because you can be born)

    [–]notagirlscout 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

    Are we really missing the point? Or is your argument just inherently flawed. Probably the second one.

    1 person doesn't understand, yea maybe they just missed the point. Multiple people "don't understand", it is probably because you provided a flawed argument.

    [–]Troop-the-Loop 0ポイント1ポイント  (11子コメント)

    No, you're not getting what I'm saying.

    Comatose does not equal brain dead.

    You can be in a coma for years and are still considered very much alive. Your pupils will still react to light, and other brain-reflexes occur.

    If you're brain dead, you can never wake up.

    [–]Autodidact420Left Libertarian -2ポイント-1ポイント  (10子コメント)

    I get what you're saying, you don't get what I'm saying.

    The analogy either doesn't work at all, or you have to be able to wake up after being brain-dead. I know that's not how it really works, but lets just say it was. You're brain dead, but we know with 99.9% certainty you'll get your full brain functioning back in a months time if we don't kill you. So you're totally not alive atm just like a fetus before it develops brain activity. Mind if I kill you instead of letting you wake up though? What's the big deal, you're not alive atm, no rights for those who aren't alive amirite

    [–]Troop-the-Loop 1ポイント2ポイント  (9子コメント)

    Im not a pro-life libertarian. I'm not arguing what you think I am arguing.

    I am merely pointing out a flaw in your reasoning. You are equating being brain dead and being comatose. They are not the same.

    If you're brain dead, you cannot wake up. Your hypothetical about someone being able to wake up is just nonsense.

    I have no horse in this race. Just trying to keep things factual.

    [–]bobskizzle -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

    In the same sense that a woman's menstruation is (nominally) regular, or that our D&D club meets regularly.

    [–]ThatisPunnyMcAfee 2016 3ポイント4ポイント  (3子コメント)

    I agree that that is a reasonable accommodation. The definition of when personhood begins, be it conception, heart activity, brain activity, "the quickening", viability (which is a moving target) or birth is somewhat arbitrary. Some cultures with high infant mortality rates even consider it after birth.

    My point is the issue isn't really binary. It's a spectrum. Best case is that people are educated and have access to birth control and therefore prevent unwanted pregnancies. If that's not the case the sooner an abortion can happen the "less bad" it is. Late term abortions for viable, thinking, feeling ferris is basically murder (in my opinion).

    [–]KensterFox 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

    I'd go so far as to say that determining whether a being is a person or not likely IS binary, or at least that the spectrum is a much shorter one than you provided - but since we're still largely ignorant about the nature of consciousness and self-awareness, the moment the binary switches from off to on is still unknown to us. The hope is that eventually we will have a much greater understanding of the difference between a not-yet-person and a person, but I'm all for not killing potential people that we don't have to.

    [–]wrightjeff 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

    It's arbitrary if you reject the consensus mankind held for millenia (specifically before gov't intervention changed the terms in 1973), namely that person hood is synonymous with conception.

    [–]Autodidact420Left Libertarian 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

    . Some cultures with high infant mortality rates even consider it after birth.

    Who cares what they think though

    That's just mistaking descriptive for normative. If it turns out that conception is the best choice to go with then that's that, who gives a fuck if other cultures are doing it wrong lol

    [–]LikesTacos 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

    I don't think the same standard can be applied. The fetus will probably develop regular brain activity and the adult probably will not.

    [–]jthengreen party 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

    Not if you abort it, it won't.

    You don't give a being the rights of its future form. You give it the rights of its current form. Kids can't buy liquor even though the will probably be able to when they're older. A felon that will be allowed to go home in 10 years doesn't get to go home and paint their living room.

    [–]msterB 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

    But we also give kids the chance to become older and don't prohibit their growth. So I don't think that's a useful analogy. There probably isn't one.

    [–]DjzongreethesecondDoes evicting trespassers from my helicopter violate the NAP? -2ポイント-1ポイント  (2子コメント)

    property rights before personhood rights

    green party

    Did you miss a /s there?

    [–]Snapple_A_Day 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

    Attack the argument not the person

    [–]DjzongreethesecondDoes evicting trespassers from my helicopter violate the NAP? 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

    To elaborate, a Socialist is saying that property rights come before even Personhood rights... Irony much? A person who wants to DESTROY all conception of property rights and seize production means for the proletariat is attacking pro-life libertarians on property rights? I mean really. Come on. That's patently absurd.

    [–]osborn18 -2ポイント-1ポイント  (0子コメント)

    I think that is a key definition.

    If a human being is defined by brain activity then a fetus with any kind of brain activity is a person. Killing a fetus that can feel pain is the same as killing a mentally handicaped person.

    I hate this tendency of simplify this debate of being between woman choice and pro-life camps.

    At some point during development is no longer a woman choice to abort but i also dont believe a human life starts at conception

    [–]CrossCheckPandaIndependently Libertarianish 3ポイント4ポイント  (3子コメント)

    I think abortion isn't really a libertarian issue. The definition of human life and who the NAP covers is the real hinging point, not all this goofy property right stuff people keep trying to shoe horn in.

    For he record I gave no idea of a fetus is ethically entitled to the rights of a human. But it follows that if so pro life is the only answer.

    [–]wrightjeff 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

    How can you have a NAP if you don't know when it applies chronologically in a person's life? I'm not trying to be sarcastic, just pointing out that the NAP is one of the indicators that abortion/life questions are pressingly relevant to Libertarians (as well as anyone who believes in the concept of inalienable rights).

    [–]CrossCheckPandaIndependently Libertarianish 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

    I think philosophically the NAP is more of a set of guidelines of what is/isn't acceptable to do to another person, than a definition of a person. The definition of a person is so hard to define I'm pretty actively admitting I don't have an answer. And barring the existence of a God (which I don't belive in) I fail to see why ANYONE could definitively answer this question for all humans - they can only answer for their own personal morality.

    If there was some weird xfiles case where after sex a random 30 year old was attached to the woman having sex for 9 months i think we'd all agree the NAP would prevent her from murdering the other adult.

    I'm rambling but I think the NAP stands alone fine without the definition of a person.

    [–]wrightjeff 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

    You have to define a person before you can ever discuss whether or not aggression (or violence or infringement or whatever) has been committed against a person.

    For example, ore in the earth is not a person and therefore there is no violation of the NAP to forcefully harvest it from the earth. There is, however, personhood attached to someone holding valuable ore and thus it is a violation of the NAP to forcefully harvest it from their private possession.

    It's necessary (and necessarily logically prior to the NAP).

    [–]notbusy 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

    The NAP applies to both parties.

    While I am personally pro abortion rights, I can totally respect this position. I hate it when people say "woman's choice" with no other argument. It completely avoids and does not address the argument the other side is making. I'm thankful that libertarianism does not allow abortion to be a wedge issue as it has become in mainstream politics.

    [–]bob-a-log 1ポイント2ポイント  (4子コメント)

    You first have to define when a group of cells becomes a person.

    If abortion is outlawed there will be a black market.

    [–]wrightjeff 1ポイント2ポイント  (3子コメント)

    There are black markets for murder-for-hire, pedophila, etc. Does that mean the gov't shouldn't protect citizens from those things?

    [–]bob-a-log 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

    The government more often then not protects those markets that you mentioned.

    Those markets directly harm living humans, not a grouping of cells that has no thoughts, identity, or anything resembling existence besides a grouping of cells. Masturbation could be outlawed on the same logic.

    [–]wrightjeff 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

    The government more often then not protects those markets that you mentioned.

    Which gov't? Some corrupt aspect of our current system? Sure. But these are threats, specifically evils, that gov't opposes in the best interests of their citizens. And this is one of the things a limited gov't is right to do.

    Those markets directly harm living humans, not a grouping of cells that has no thoughts, identity, or anything resembling existence besides a grouping of cells.

    That doesn't describe an embryo or fetus (see the Law of Identity) so what are you describing?

    Masturbation could be outlawed on the same logic.

    No it couldn't. That's horribly inaccurate.

    [–]FourFingeredMartianSomali Refugee 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

    he NAP applies to both parties.

    Some would consider the group of cells to be trespassing, or is simply being asked to leave private property.

    [–]VinylGuy420 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Except for if I were to know I'd be deformed, mentally retarded, paralyzed in a wheelchair my whole life attached to a breathing tube and a burden to others I'd would want to be aborted prior to my birth. If a child is not going to have an adequate quality of life then I think it should be aborted.

    Also if you were to be raped, and it was the single most terrifying, painful, and emotionally disturbing thing that's ever happened to you would you want to be reminded of that incident day in and day out for 9 months when you're just trying to move on? Why sacrifice your emotional and possibly physical health for something you didn't even ask for or consented to when there is a safer logical option to rid yourself of the emotional agony and pain that is raped childbirth?

    [–]Zifnab25Filthy Statist 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

    the body of their the unborn also belong to themselves

    How does that entitle the unborn to a uterus-home?

    I realize that that there is a burden applied to the mother, but that pales in comparison to the burden of death of the unborn

    Sounds like you're arguing for wealth redistribution from the rich to the poor, because the poor need it more.

    [–]ArmyTrainingSir -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

    How many children have you adopted?

    [–]SteelTooth -3ポイント-2ポイント  (1子コメント)

    There is also a strong argument to be made about body ownership. In the coming years it will become more important, right now a corporation can own patents to your body causing all sorts of headaches. Abortion is just one argument that sets a precedent for that. Because if the government can tell you what you can do with your body, then a drug company can sue you for the antibodies that exist in your body.

    [–]joshuads -2ポイント-1ポイント  (0子コメント)

    right now a corporation can own patents to your body

    No it cannot. One of the biggest current issues in patent law is how far overboard the courts have gone to make sure this will never be the case.