全 23 件のコメント

[–]soundbunny 10ポイント11ポイント  (10子コメント)

Yes. I mean, not when describing small young female humans, but in being seemingly obsessed with them being the targets of hypothetical perverts, yes, we need to stop that. It all comes across as these people making these claims have desires to assault little girls, so they worry that others will. The preoccupation with young female victims of sexual assault is telling and super gross.

[–]chesuccesso 5ポイント6ポイント  (1子コメント)

That rhetoric also ignores that any child can be a victim of abuse and that victims are often boys.

[–]soundbunny 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yup. And as many have pointed out, the cis male abusers are theoretically able to access their victims in public bathrooms already.

[–]Misogynist-ist[S] 13ポイント14ポイント  (5子コメント)

Exactly. It's the same reason that other phrases like 'daddy's girl' make me uncomfortable. It all plays into misogynistic ideas of 'little girls' as shining, frail beacons of pure femininity that must be protected by big, strong men so they can be kept factory-fresh before they're handed off to the big, strong husband. There is a huge fetishization of feminine innocence and 'damselability' or rescuability for lack of better words, even outside the abstinence movement. When I say 'innocence' I mean this shelteredness that certain extreme religious communities, and others, value.

Edit: I am absolutely not saying what Dark Matter was saying and implying that underage girls can have any part in their own abuse or that they are not 'innocent' in a sexual sense. Parents, I think, should not shame sexuality but should help kids realize their bodily autonomy, that they do not owe anyone their bodies or sexuality and it is never okay for someone to infringe upon that. I'm not expressing myself well here. 'Innocence' in the alt-right sense is this idea that a girl or woman is kept pure for the sake of someone else. I am not talking about the ability to live without being abused.

Yes, let's protect our kids. Yes, we need to make sure they're safe. But this kind of rhetoric really gets to me. Similar to those who are rabidly pro-life but want cuts to welfare benefits that would help those babies have enough to live on.

[–]soundbunny 5ポイント6ポイント  (4子コメント)

It seems to come from the same place of those folks that applaud Trump, or any other famously populist personality, for using hate speech in public. They say "He's just saying it like it is. We're all thinking it." No buddy, I was certainly not thinking that.

[–]Misogynist-ist[S] 4ポイント5ポイント  (3子コメント)

An old family friend spouts this stuff on Facebook and I just delete or hide it now. Should just unfriend.

By the way, this is a good example of why I dislike the phrase, because this is what it's been tainted by. Vision Forum is thankfully bust because their leader was a big ol' hypocrite, but because my parents got a couple homeschool catalogs, we somehow ended up on this list.

And as conservative as my upbringing was as far as sex was concerned, I was largely allowed to express myself and my interests as I wanted, whether they were 'girly' or not. We always had a good horrified laugh at Vision Forum catalogs.

[–]soundbunny 7ポイント8ポイント  (1子コメント)

Ee gad. I live in the SW, and FLDS is enough of a problem that we have specific shelters dedicated to helping young people escape and integrate into mainstream society.

As a side note, I would like to see the phrase "young woman" more often. I feel like we lack a lot of stories and representations of women in their formidable years of early adulthood. Lady "Ishmeal"s, if you will.

[–]Misogynist-ist[S] 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yup. 'Young woman', depending on HOW you say it, can actually sound quite respectful. I like the phrase that I'm borrowing from romance novels, too, 'new adult'- meaning women who are just striking out on their own, going to college, and so on.

And yeah, 'young woman' refers to a different age group than 'little girl'.

[–]ifnotoregon 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Let the "Unfollow" button on facebook be your friend, I know it's mine. Thank you, unfollow button, for letting exes be invisible until I decide to look, thanks for hiding crazy extended family religious rants, and last but not least thanks for hiding "nice guy" coworkers.

[–]AlienatedOphelia 7ポイント8ポイント  (1子コメント)

Yes. I mean, not when describing small young female humans, but in being seemingly obsessed with them being the targets of hypothetical perverts, yes, we need to stop that.

Agreed. Only in this particular type of context, though. What I object to is the idea that these terms need to be avoided by women to describe ourselves and frame our childhoods, and by anyone simply to describe young female humans, and that's what OP seems to be advocating. I can't abide that for a plethora of reasons.

[–]Misogynist-ist[S] 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

I mean, that's not what I said. But I'm specifically referring to it in the trans bathroom discussion.

Essentially I'm tired of usually older white dudes trotting out 'little girls' as some sort of checkmate to trans people wanting to use the bathroom they feel best matches their gender identity.

I DO have problems with it on a wider scale for the reasons I've expounded on below, but that has to do with my personal history in a culture that really latched onto this idea of keeping 'little girls' 'little girls' for as long as humanly possible and not really letting them confront questions about their own bodies, sexuality, or gender, especially after puberty.

[–]AlienatedOphelia 7ポイント8ポイント  (3子コメント)

Hell no, come on. I completely disagree with your overall sentiment here.

How in the hell is "little girls" "infantilizing" when it's referring to actual children? And it's not inextricably tied to sexualization anymore than any other term used to refer to girls and women is (and all are to some degree, because under male supremacy we are inherently sexualized in negative ways), how did you get that impression?

I'm sorry if this sounds overly aggressive or hostile, and I'm not trying to attack you personally, but this idea is awful.

Personal disclosure/disclaimer: I'm a feminine adult woman with a childlike personality in many ways, I often tell people I'm a "little girl at heart" as that's a major aspect of how I see and describe myself, and frankly it's hard not to feel almost personally attacked every time I see this crop up. It's also really important to me to define my childhood as being that of a little girl, since I'm a trans woman and society has stripped that from me. I'm very sensitive about it.

That all being said, just ideologically speaking, I'm really fucking tired of this creeping pseudo-feminist trend of wanting to get rid of or downplay almost every term that specifically designates and differentiates girls/women (especially those associated with femininity or cuteness) because it's "infantile" or "sexualized" or whatever. I'm seeing this creep into discourse more and more lately and frankly it scares me and makes me feel like my entire identity with the way I relate to my womanhood (and many other women relate to theirs) is being undermined.

I've seen it with the discussion around the term "panties" and other gendered terms for clothes, with the use of "girl" in (self-)reference to adult women, and now this.

I contend that this type of conscious androgynization is not the answer, and that it's actually really misogynist, masculinist and anti-feminine in itself. We as women shouldn't have to relinquish or modify terms for ourselves in ways that undermine our unique experience and pride in our gender just because they're misused and appropriated in gross ways by patronizing, misogynist men. That's entirely on them to stop sexualizing and overly infantilizing these terms, and symptomatic IMO of the deeper underlying misogyny at play in how we're spoken for and described.

Language is not the end all be all of challenging misogyny and oppression at large, despite what postmodernist transfeminists would have you believe. It's just not. The stronger versions of the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis that this implicit, pervasive underlying idea relies on have been largely discredited by modern linguists. Changing the language that we use for ourselves will not change how we're seen and treated--as a member of several marginalized groups who experiences the "intersections" transfeminists are so fond of referring to, I've seen and personally experienced this time and time again. So that's another point. Young female children will always be patronized in disquieting ways so long as the structures of male supremacy and patriarchy remain in place, regardless of whether they're referred to as "little girls" or not.

[–]Misogynist-ist[S] 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

Language is a BIG step for humanizing people or, when misused, dehumanizing them.

I grew up in a lighter version of abstinence culture, but I was aware of the daddy-daughter dances and the near-fetishization of virginity and 'feminine purity'.

The phrase 'little girls' is being uttered time and again by bigots and as I said, girls have been turned into a symbol rather than an actual entity. 'Little girls' are shorthand for a misogynistic ideal of woman, wrapped up in a little package with a bow where they are instilled with the idea that they owe their sexuality to someone.

If you're gonna get all TERF on me, I really have nothing to say. I don't truck with that.

[–]AlienatedOphelia 9ポイント10ポイント  (1子コメント)

Language is a BIG step for humanizing people or, when misused, dehumanizing them.

I never said it wasn't. But I completely disagree with the premise that changing language is the best or even a particularly effective way to undermine power structures based on what I've seen and experienced as a woman who faces "intersections" of delegitimization/oppression, and more specifically, I disagree vociferously with the premise that female-specific language for girls and women inherently dehumanizes us.

I grew up in a lighter version of abstinence culture, but I was aware of the daddy-daughter dances and the near-fetishization of virginity and 'feminine purity'.

The phrase 'little girls' is being uttered time and again by bigots

Yes, 'purity' culture is misogynist and horrible and I would never try to argue otherwise--it's something that needs to be an absolute priority in challenging to achieve women's liberation from male supremacy (though raunch culture does as well, even more so, but that's a whole other topic). My point is that this kind of masculinist/misogynist worldview, of turning women into symbols instead of actual human beings at every stage of our lives, doesn't and shouldn't mean that we should reject or abandon affirming our femininity, femaleness, and even traits like youth/cuteness/whatever have you through language simply because those identities have been hijacked by patriarchy. And I think that, while sexualization of girls is a major problem, it's quite a stretch and unreasonable to claim that the phrase "little girls" inherently comes loaded with all those associations simply because it's been uttered as a scare tactic by misogynist assholes in an overblown "debate" about a specific issue.

If you're gonna get all TERF on me, I really have nothing to say. I don't truck with that.

Neither do I? I'm not a TERF by any means--that's ridiculous as I'm a non-op, transsexual, feminine woman whose lesbianism is central to her identity--the very epitome of the boogeyman that TERFs consider anathema and want to undermine and exterminate--and my rhetoric in no way reflects that. (TERFs by and large are extremely masculinist in their outlook and hate anything that hints of femininity or "little girls"-type terms in any way.) But I'm also not a transfeminist/third-wave postmodernist feminist either, and I'm very much opposed to most transfeminist dogma like this. In large part because liberal transfeminists arrogantly think they can speak for me regarding issues (like the whole 'bathroom' thing) that can and sometimes do personally impact my life, and hijack my experience/narrative just as much as the conservative bigots do to push an agenda regarding gender I don't at all identify or agree with.

[–]Misogynist-ist[S] 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'm sorry that your feelings (and words) have been co-opted.

Language changes all the time, though, and it's certainly not the BEST way to enact change. But it can help change attitudes, which can lead to small but noticeable change over time.

There's nothing specifically dehumanizing about certain words, it's all about the connotations. For me, 'little girls' is wrought with connotations that make me really uncomfortable, especially when being spoken by older men.

[–][削除されました]  (1子コメント)

[deleted]

    [–][削除されました]  (5子コメント)

    [removed]

      [–]Misogynist-ist[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (4子コメント)

      You're being sarcastic, right?

      [–]lordofallshit -1ポイント0ポイント  (3子コメント)

      No. It's common sense.

      [–]Misogynist-ist[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

      You appear to be in the wrong sub.

      [–]lordofallshit 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

      I'm stepping out of my echo chamber.

      [–]Misogynist-ist[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

      If you're here in good faith, sure, let's talk. But if you use 'cuck' unironically, I'm not so sure about that.