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Nomad from HLTV speaks up about WESADiscussion (hltv.org)

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トップ新着論争中古い順Q&A

[–]multifragMaster Guardian Elite 178ポイント179ポイント  (27子コメント)

One thing I know from experience is if multiple companies get together and talk about the structure of contracts, you will have to forget about a pay raise and you can't leave because they have good relationship with other ''competing'' companies which will pay you the same rate or even less. Similar happened to silicone valley engineers when Google, Microsoft, Apple, etc. teamed up to disclose their pay rates. I'm experiencing similar in VFX industry...

[–]Smok3dSalmonCloud9 Fan 16ポイント17ポイント  (11子コメント)

They didn't disclose pay rates. They simply told recruiters to not recruit from within those companies. So an Apple employee couldn't go to Google, get an offer, and then make Apple beat it or leave.

The other issue that happened was when Google employees were sharing a giant spreadsheet where they were sharing their salaries within the company. After that happened, many girls and underpaid employees demanded raises and got them.

Source: I live in this hell.

[–]multifragMaster Guardian Elite 4ポイント5ポイント  (6子コメント)

So an Apple employee couldn't go to Google, get an offer, and then make Apple beat it or leave. That's even worse. At least I can change who my boss is. To be honest It changes periodically as the film production ends. One way or another, we are being F*ucked and there is little I can do about it apart investing money and opening my own studio.

[–]lamesauce88 3ポイント4ポイント  (2子コメント)

The IT world is a fucked place my friend. But we get to play with computers all day so at least theres that

[–]Smok3dSalmonCloud9 Fan 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

And post on reddit on throwaway accounts! woooo

[–]gsxrjasonLegendary Eagle 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Ya nice try, nobody throws smoked salmon away

[–]Smok3dSalmonCloud9 Fan 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

Well, they could do it. And many of them do. But they wouldn't be approached by recruiters and be persuaded to do so. Silicon Valley has some of the highest rates of turnover, so I think they were trying to control the bleeding when it was at an all-time high.

[–]multifragMaster Guardian Elite 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Due to studios competing for the work on films they try to make as low of the price as possible. Which puts us in long hours(14h), not paid overtime, no real schedule close to deadline(just come in everyday) and no long term contract. Combine that with shitty pay rate and it gets depressing.

[–]Smok3dSalmonCloud9 Fan 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

That's probably why they've coined the term starving artist. Your industry has always had an over abundance of people trying to chase their dreams at all costs.

Software Development is quite the opposite and the companies are pissed about it. They spend a year training someone and then they quit.

[–]stX3 0ポイント1ポイント  (3子コメント)

  1. You do that by clauses in employees contracts, it's normal for many kind of business to have a non compete of X years.

By doing it the way you described it, it sounds very illegal.

  1. 2. 2. What was the issue/problem with this again?

e:No clue what happened here, I see 1 twice in the comment, but in my edit field the 2end number is 2. I suck at reddit formatting.

e: first edit kinda worked, although TIL "^ X" = X

e: at least Im having fun 1. 2.

[–]Smok3dSalmonCloud9 Fan 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

California does not allow non-compete clauses. This was from recruiters of the companies. Apple was telling Apple recruiters to not recruit from the other 3 companies and they were doing the same.

Sharing salaries within company is taboo, but not illegal. If Google didn't raise salaries for those who were disgruntled, they faced the possibility of an employee strike or a labor union forming.

[–]stX3 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

And they just happened to all tell their recruiters the same?... My illegal comment was addressed to this. Bad layout I can see now =)

Why do you think it is a taboo?, nvm you listed them. I'm guessing google still made huge profits even after the raises ye?. This is why unions are not bad(I know US unions have no clue what a union is, that's another story for another day). And this is also why we don't want a (1)single private corporation to sit on all aspects of cs, from player unions(or making sure they don't form), to employee union to organizers - event makers.

[–]Smok3dSalmonCloud9 Fan 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Sharing salary has been taboo since forever in the United States. It's just not something people have done in the past. If someone doesn't like you, or thinks they are a better employee and you make more than them... they're going to be upset. Also salaries can vary based on negotiation ability, or having multiple offers at the time of employment, management favoritism, glass ceiling, racism, skill, and all kinds of other reasons.

[–]stichomythiaThe Global Elite 38ポイント39ポイント  (0子コメント)

And they wonder why wage growth has been stagnant for the past decade (and arguably even longer)

[–]yohanleafheartRenegades Fan 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

Similar happened to silicone valley engineers when Google, Microsoft, Apple, etc.

And that is all levels of illegal in Europe, IIRC

[–]pyi 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

NA laws EleGiggle

[–]sinatorSupreme Master First Class 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

It's illegal in the US too.

[–]bleeuurgghhDistinguished Master Guardian 61ポイント62ポイント  (4子コメント)

Any 'universal standard' tied to one company will not stand.

For any organisation such as this to carry weight it needs equal representation from all leagues and teams, and a method with which new companies can apply to have members.

An organisation such as WESA could have the power to unionise players, mediate player transfers, create an official 'competition season', coordinate timely and sensible updates to the game with Valve amongst countless other things but this WILL NOT HAPPEN if at a fundamental level if ESL maintains such a hold. It will either fizzle out into obscurity or gift ESL a monopoly on the CS:GO scene.

[–]gpaularoo 23ポイント24ポイント  (3子コメント)

if an organization has power to unionize players, then things are fucked.

Only players can unionize players.

[–]bleeuurgghhDistinguished Master Guardian 4ポイント5ポイント  (2子コメント)

But the idea is that a WESA type organisation could be the 'middle man' as it were, setting industry standards for organisation and facilities in tournaments as well as developing a process with which organisations can manage the transfer or players and being the independent org a player could go to if he feels mistreated or mispayed by his team

[–]stX3 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

The problem is not wesa forming, it's the fact that it's one company behind it, doing all 3 things, Player union, org union and league 'union(of 1?), all under one roof. AND claiming 50% of it.

That is a deal we don't need

In any and all cases those 3 things should be kept separately, so they keep each other from taking advantage.

You know it's kind of like a country. You have democratic countries, and you have those that are not.

On one end you have separated the law enforcement from the ones writing the laws and again to the ones making decisions.(I would throw in free press and a sound constitution, in this specific case guns allowed !)
Throw in a monarch for some of us as the cherry on top, I'd consider this to be Gabe.

On the other hand, you have one entity with all the control. Hi putin, don't shoot, or put me in prison, or give away all up and coming and/or big business to all minister's cousin daughters, mothers, friends of friends, of friends(you get the picture it's huge) through (il)legal expropriation, Oh and after that do all of the former afterwards any way.

aaiiigh that got a bit /ranty at the end hf.

[–]gpaularoo 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

sounds good, just players/community needs to have 50% ownership.

Well i would argue 60%, the majority needs to be looked after.

[–]F246810 117ポイント118ポイント  (21子コメント)

Great post from Nomad.

He is 100% spot on imo, fuck WESA.

It's in our interest to keep the market as free as possible. If ESL and others want to be the best tournament and organization, they need to compete with everyone else and be better.

[–]bleeuurgghhDistinguished Master Guardian 40ポイント41ポイント  (14子コメント)

The idea of a body such as WESA in itself is not the problem, it's the lack of representation from other tournament organisers and valve.

But your absolutely right, a monopoly doesn't create a healthy market for business owners or consumers

[–]boykawOw 17ポイント18ポイント  (3子コメント)

Exactly, the fact that ESL owns 50% is already a big fucking issue and that's the only reason why this is only benefiting them in the long run.

[–]MikeTheAverageRedditLuminosity Gaming Fan 10ポイント11ポイント  (2子コメント)

They basically own 100%, all the ORG owners are all tight lipped with ESL.

[–]Bllets 4ポイント5ポイント  (7子コメント)

This is actually an important thing to notice. Every game has a body that works to set up a lot of the inner workings.

FIFA surely is a piece of shit these days, but they still give a lot of money for developing countries and smaller leagues. Is the main body regarding general rule changes as well and obviously organize the WC. FIFA doesn't have ~100 staff members sitting on their ass and doing nothing.

CS:GO could definitely use a controlling body setting up general rules and shit. The only fair part to do this would be an non-bias organisation, such as Valve. ESL is definitely not a non-bias organisation and I doubt they will ever be it.

[–]F246810 6ポイント7ポイント  (1子コメント)

We can have a non-profit that suggest rules and guidelines and the players/teams/organizations can adopt as they see fit.

The best regulator is the market place. Let there be 100 tournaments and the market (players, fans, teams etc) will decide which are the best.

This is just a traditional cartel which is bad in the long term for everyone except the cartel members.

[–]Bllets 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Except how does a market handle stuff like throwing games? Cheaters? Ingame rules?

The market (Supply/demand) works for a lot of things, I don't think setting up a competitive sport is one of them.

[–]hoff_1 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

obviously organize the WC.

you mean getting payed so the WC will be played in the summer (they might actually have changed it to the winter again i have no clue) in Katar where "slaves" build the stadiums :)

if cs organizers wanted to define an off season, coordinate rulesets they would have done it already.
if teams wanted to fight for player rights then there would be no issue to begin with since the teams are the ones to make the contracts

having a governing body is a good idea but it is hard to pull it off and keep it clean because noone oversees the governing body

[–]stX3 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Name me one org that handles everything from player unions to management to clubs to organizers/even makers.

[–]TwoYenTeam Liquid Fan 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

I got the impression that Nomad has just seen the articles regarding FIFA, but has no knowledge of the organization beyond that.

FIFA has done, and continues to do a lot of good. The nepotism and corruption, to my mind, don't (as the writer seems to indicate) serve as a warning against creating a governing body. Rather, it serves to highlight the flaws FIFA had (for example the amount of terms one can be president) so that you don't repeat those mistakes in a new venture.

WESA and FIFA might purport to be the same thing on the surface, but they are two very different beasts underneath.

tl;dr I agree with you, Bllets.

[–]Bllets 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

The thing though is that if the very top is corrupt, how far down does the corruption go?

People who decides were money goes in SA get money from X in order to spread the money in a specific? How do we not know that the ethic Committee is corrupt?

FIFA is not all bad, but when corruption seems so wide spread at the top, it is hard to believe it is different below. Which to me is why such organisations needs to have one thing as their #1 priority. TRANSPARENCY.

It's amazing to me that private corporations are more open about shit then organisations that has a motto like "For the Game. For the World."

[–]stX3 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

comparing fifa(the idea without corruption) to a private company. Please don't.

Also does fifa orchestrate the player unions and clubs as well?

[–]Mreko551 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

It has to consist of people without bias. They can still abuse their power to shut out other tournament organizers and work as a cartel.

[–]DutchsFriendDillon 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

It's the lack of independence actually. Putting a lot of organizers in would make it democratic, but still dependent. Making it independent with organizers, devs, and teams (incl. players) as their stakeholders would make it democratic AND superior to any of the other possible solutions, because it could act as its own entity.

[–]spetaa 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Agreed.

Also likening yourself to the NFL is laughable. Why would ANY player or fan want to have a system like the NFL. The NFL and FIFA are owner run leagues who have monopolies.

[–]gpaularoo -2ポイント-1ポイント  (4子コメント)

errr, i dunno about free markets, imo they lead to a monopoly, ie, ESL.

All i want to see is the players and the community prioritized over everything.

I would rather see this game crash and burn by giving back to players and the community in spades, than prosper with teams/ tournament organizations becoming wealthy.

[–]F246810 0ポイント1ポイント  (3子コメント)

Monopolies that are not caused by some governmental preferential treatment are pretty rare. Backed up by distinguished economist Milton Friedman, look it up if interested.

Even if your interest are to keep the players and communities at the center of csgo, I think a free market approach will do a much better job of that than making various corporate regulatory organisations or cartels (I'd call WESA a cartel).

[–]gpaularoo 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

im politicaly opposed. All i want to see is players and the community prioritized over all else. If it means csgo grows slowly, or stagnates, or even dies, i would rather it live and die with the players and community at the forefront.

[–]stX3 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

And disproved by history and current times. Look into how the transition from bell telephone(at&t) company went, and what emerged after.

Take a look at who owns 90% of the media.
Look at the aftermath of R. Reagan enabling mega merges.

A completely free capitalistic market will eventually end up in monopolies, because the bigger fish eats the smaller ones, and a fish needs to eat, not just for it self but all the little fishes waiting at home for their share. Otherwise those small fish grow big, and eventually eat you. Big corporations know this. Governments knows this. Why do you think we have(you had?) anti monopoly laws and whole deparments ensuring fair competition, and a whole lot of lobbyists trying to get those removed?

[–]F246810 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

This is not a political sub so I will end with this post.

"Free market capitalism leads to monopolies" is not a position shared by majority of economists as far as I know. If you claim it is, please show me some proof.

Why do you think we have(you had?) anti monopoly laws and whole deparments ensuring fair competition

That is not a good argument. Government always tries to expand, the people working there have an incentive for it to expand. It's like justifying a war by saying: Why do you think the state has such a powerful military?

[–]gpaularoo 28ポイント29ポイント  (4子コメント)

wesa and all those involved can promise things up the wazoo, the fact is wesa is made for big business by big business. It only exists because business has figured out it can profit from it.

Over the next couple years, it may very well help the game and help the players.

But mark my words. Fucking mark them and tag them. Continuing on the current trajectory, over the next 5 years, there will come a time when WESA needs to choose between the players, the community and profits.

And they will choose profits.

And it may have a seriously dramatic influence on the scene.

Fucking mark my words.

[–]precolumbian16FaZe Clan Fan 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

saved and tagged, i hope you're wrong

[–]zach_ataxSplyce Fan 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

!remindme 2.5 years

[–]notska 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

mock my words

[–]Archon_CSGOSplyce Fan 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

!remindme 5 years

[–]bleak-outlookLuminosity Gaming Fan 69ポイント70ポイント  (29子コメント)

I am an old rat in this game, I’ve been around for more than 15 years, so I have seen my fair share of what goes on in professional CS, and for the life of me, I cannot figure out why we would need WESA?

WESAs vision states that they want to support and amplify sustainable growth in esports, and to share that growth with the teams, the leagues and the players. This all sounds very good, but have we not had sustainable growth the past 3 years of CS:GO? Have things not improved for everyone? Why now are we so sure we need anyone to tamper with this? Is it not firmly embedded in the core of professional CS that we do not need anyone? That anyone who has tried to mingle before, have only ruined things? What good has corporate money from people who did not understand the game ever done? Why can our growth not continue as it has?

CS:GO is growing amazingly, and it is growing on a real foundation this time, as opposed to the glory days of 1.6, where the prize money were plenty, but ultimately non-existing. This time the money is there, the economy is working, money is flowing from the fans to the players, teams and organizations, and we are all living in a happy world where there is growth and money enough to go around.

The growth we are having is being driven on all fronts by heavy competition, competition that is fueled by a very low barrier of entry. Anyone can do something in esports, anyone can start a league, and work their way up. Anyone can start a team, get some good players, and join the big leagues. Anyone can play hard and go pro. Is it hard as hell? Yes. Does it happen all the time? No. Does this mean that locking one organizer and the teams that have made it now into power positions, and having them dictate who is allowed in the exclusive club in the future is the best way forward? Well it certainly has not been so far, so why would it all of a sudden be?

WESA would also have us all believe that they can span everyone, leagues, players and teams. Yet somehow we got one league, that has 50% of the power, and only 8 teams with the remaining power, and a vague promise of power for the players? How is that spanning everyone? Why is the power not split three ways between the three parties, if we were so transparent and encompassing? Why is ESL entitled to 50%? Why is ESL entitled to dictating how events should be run in the future, except from actually competing against the other organizers? Why is ESL even spending time and money on WESA? Are we to believe it is simply altruism and love of the game? Because we missed that when 1.6 went through a rough patch, but maybe you are making amends?

Why are parallels, by WESA themselves, being drawn to the likes of FIFA and NFL? Are we really trying to pretend that an organization like FIFA is doing anything good for the world of football? Between somehow having the most corrupt people in the world in their leadership and being a leech on the revenue football generates, it is tough to see. Why can we not do without? What do we need these organizations for? We have no tv rights to sell, we are broadcasting ourselves. We are producing ourselves. We make our own teams. We train our own players. We make our own luck.

Valve - help us. This is your game, and you have wisely let us shape it ourselves, you have sat passively and let us build it. You gave us the tools and opportunity, and we took them. Leaving CS to its own devices, in essence only providing infrastructure is in my mind a masterpiece. I know you are often criticized for this, but I firmly believe that if you let people earn what they get, they will cherish it more, and I hope this is partly your thinking too. However, sometimes we are immature, sometimes we take the wrong steps, and I firmly think WESA is a wrong step, and that is where you guys come in. You can stop this, from day to day, let the community know that you own this game, you are lending it to us, and as long as we are responsible, you will keep doing so, but when we step out of line, you decide what is best. So stop WESA, before they take this game away from not only you, but also us who love it.

And WESA, I hope I am in the wrong, I hope I am just being stubborn and too old for change. I hope I am just cynical from past experiences, and that everything is different this time. So please, prove me wrong.

[–]smathewsFnatic Founder 1ポイント2ポイント  (26子コメント)

As much as I love the free market (and I do!!), there are reasons why governments exist in the world. I know by saying anything on here I risk being flamed to oblivion, but please take a moment to think about the following things. Without some form of regulation how do we determine:

  1. Player transfer rules, transfer windows - Who will uphold illegal poaching, contract breaking, bad behaviour, racism, you name it?
  2. Off seasons, periods of rest - unfortunately for an sporting industry to be healthy there has to be times for the changing of the guard, for player swaps, (holidays haha).
  3. Drug testing / Bad behaviour enforcement - this will become a real issue as time goes forward.
  4. Multi-team ownership / protection against cartels - there's a reason why Riot has strict rules against this in LoL. Also with these rules it has driven an enormous surge in investment into 'challenger teams' we even have one... it's given rise to legitimate academies.
  5. Player rights / Treatment - Getting locked into terrible contracts for many years, when your an unsuspecting minor? Not cool. Contract reviews and standards to stop bad management practices and outright dodgy dealings.
  6. Broadcasting rights - here's an interesting one. This is the biggest revenue driver in real sports, who know's how this is going to breakdown in the future... but with a unified voice as a community we can lobby together to get better deals from the media companies. and more.....

These are just some issues that has plagued the sport in some form and will only get worse. I'm not saying WESA is the answer to all these things (or even has a stance on all of them), but these issues are an example of what has driven the teams and players to want to have something like this exist.

It's easy to hate on things, and like the status quo... but not every company out there is a meglomaniac evil corp looking to stamp out your awesome game CS:GO, on the contrary... we've all dedicated our lives to making this thing called esports a real, true, long lasting success story.

Sam

[–]LycangropeLuminosity Gaming Fan 72ポイント73ポイント  (8子コメント)

Players need this type of organization. However, ESL being at the head is a major problem. ESL heading WESA and dictating tournament standards is like Ford heading the UAW and dictating shifts and production line SOPs. It's quite easy for ESL to influence WESA to adopt standards that negatively affect other organizations.

And for those who don't join WESA...What happens when the members move to only participate in WESA events? Will non WESA teams be banned from WESA events? Will WESA members who break a WESA sanctioned boycott of a league be called scabs?

I also worry about how this will impact grass roots events and small, up and coming event organizers. Then what about talent? Soon they're going to want these protections. Will we see a time where non WESA talent is not allowed to be hired over a WESA caster/host?

Lots of unanswered questions and a lot of glaring conflicts of interest.

[–]Brockdog 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

meglomaniac evil corp

Please stop using such condescending words like we are all children. It's the nature of businesses to stacked all the odds in their favor. You haven't even addressed any of the legitimate concerns that were raised and instead diverted the attention with your list.

[–]FamilyShowwTeam Astralis Fan 19ポイント20ポイント  (1子コメント)

Player transfer rules, transfer windows - Who will uphold illegal poaching, contract breaking, bad behaviour, racism, you name it?

So WESA was made to fight racism? Seems a bit far-fetched.

What do you even mean by "contract breaking" and "bad behaviour"? Bad behaviour by who? And seeing how the "executive board" doesnt contain any players, how does it help the players at all?

Off seasons, periods of rest - unfortunately for an sporting industry to be healthy there has to be times for the changing of the guard, for player swaps, (holidays haha).

So WESA is gonna make an official off season? Because otherwise this is a complete non-argument. And who is gonna decide the off season? Oh right, ESL and a couple of organisations. The players get no say, any org who is not cool enough to be in this club does not get a say.

Drug testing / Bad behaviour enforcement - this will become a real issue as time goes forward.

Again you mention bad behaviour, but you speak in incredibly weak terms. Bad behaviour by who? And how exactly have you arrived at the conclusion that this will be a "real issue" moving forward? Because unless you have actual knowledge of a growing trend of CS players using drugs, you are just grabbing things out of thin air.

Multi-team ownership / protection against cartels - there's a reason why Riot has strict rules against this in LoL. Also with these rules it has driven an enormous surge in investment into 'challenger teams' we even have one... it's given rise to legitimate academies.

"Protection against cartels" - that might be the most ironic thing I've read today. The whole reason people dislike WESA is because it shares so many similarities to a cartel. One event organizer (ESL) gets all the power, a handful of select orgs get a share of the power as well, everybody else is left out of power. There is absolutely nothing that suggests WESA is a good thing in this regard.

Player rights / Treatment - Getting locked into terrible contracts for many years, when your an unsuspecting minor? Not cool. Contract reviews and standards to stop bad management practices and outright dodgy dealings.

Who exactly is gonna protect the player rights here? WESA is driven by ESL and the orgs. The orgs are the employers, so they're kind of the ones players need to have rights against, yet the orgs are the ones who have all the power in WESA while the players have none. Using "player rights" as a defense of WESA seems like complete BS.

Broadcasting rights - here's an interesting one. This is the biggest revenue driver in real sports, who know's how this is going to breakdown in the future... but with a unified voice as a community we can lobby together to get better deals from the media companies. and more.....

And by "unified voice" you mean one specific tournament organizer? Yeah, I'm sure there are not going to be any problems when TV stations are looking to purchase rights to CS tournaments and then ESL are the ones in control of the scene.

And please just stop speaking about WESA as some "unified voice of the community". It's pretty clear the community doesn't like it. It is absolutely NOT a voice of the community.

Overall, there just seems to be more negatives than positives in regards to this whole thing. Teams outside WESA are gonna be worse off, players in the WESA teams don't gain any real power, ESL is getting a shortcut to monopolizing the scene in their favour.

And to top it all, the only top 10 team that is owned by players (Astralis) were not invited into this league. Strange how WESA make all these claims about wanting increased player rights, yet player owned orgs are apparently not welcome. And Astralis being a new team seems very unlikely be the reason they aren't in it when FaZe have had a CS team for almost the exact same amount of time as Astralis, yet they were invited.

[–]h4ndo 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

And who is gonna decide the off season? Oh right, ESL and a couple of organisations.

Indeed, and tough luck if you traditionally held your competition during what will now be considered 'the off season'.

Good post - and you clearly have far more willingness to engage with that nonsense than I did. Given how blatantly transparent it was, I honestly thought his post was an attempt at humour.

[–]TopSoulManTeam Solomid Fan 4ポイント5ポイント  (1子コメント)

It's not so much the idea that is disconcerting, it's who is being appointed that worries the community. Having a small minority of ESL employees as board members could encourage collusion/corruption which could trickle down to the bottom levels of CS.

The system is only as functional as the people who are running it.

[–]MAMark1Supreme Master First Class 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

If an obvious leader, anointed by community/player/team support, had risen to the top, we would be fine if they tried to create organization for the good of all. But no one likes ESL or trusts them to do this properly. It feels like a wolf in sheep's clothing. They've tried to both create a crown where it didn't exist and also place it on their own heads.

[–]Ozbal42 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

i feel like the scary part of this is unlike league, its not the game owners that are doing this, im sure people wouldnt have problems with this if valve was behind

[–]Faisal__KhanLegendary Eagle Master 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

2.Teams and players can choose if they want to play in certain tournaments or leagues or not.

3.It's up to tournaments and organisers to test the players and punish them accordingly. Why do we need a 3rd party who is obviously here to fuck us up.

4.CS:GO and DOTA are open circuit games where amateur players can just as easily get noticed and qualify for major tournaments.

Oh and fnatic dota is known for fucking up its players so I won't trust guys like you.

Why does WESA need 2 ESL members on the council and a corrupt ex-FIFA member?

This thing will turn out to be an authoritative organisation trying their best to manipulate cs:go pro scene and players and getting the most money out of it while fucking up the game.

[–]Vinirik 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Most of the things could (should) be solved with a player union, not team owners who have different goals.

The drug testing thing makes no sense when we don't even know how they effect people playing computer games.

Funny you mention cartels, when some teams in this already act like one.

Broadcasting rights, with MTG owning esl that is a conflict of interest.

And it doesn't help that your League Commissioner has no idea how things work in esports.

[–]afafjhaskFnatic Fan 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

If an organisation like this is needed (which i don't know) it shouldnt involve companies and people that can selfishly take advantage of it.

Right now the 8 teams and ESL have power and can/will act as a monopoly and therefor will reduce competition.

If this is needed it should be run by people that can't profit it from it directly.

[–]IniNew 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

No body is in love with the Status Quo. Everyone thinks things for the players specifically need to change.

ESL and Paid-for-team-membership is what is pissing everyone off.

[–]anuragsins1991Gambit Gaming Fan 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

So you are calling yourselves "We" now ? 8 Organisations+ESL are the only ones who have worked for the betterment of esports ?

What about other orgs ?

You post is fully biased view of whatever you wanted to actually say.

[–]SossenAstana Dragons Fan 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

All 6 of these so called issues are examples of things that are either irrelevant, can be solved without this association or things that will actually become worse now that WESA exists.

  • Poaching, contract breaking, bad behaviour and racism can all be solved by the orgs themselves and the judicial system in their respective countries.

  • Periods of rest should be dictated by the players themselves in the contracts that they sign. If anything, this is something that a player agency would solve, not a team association.

  • Drug testing and bad behaviour enforcement are both ridiculous concepts and can easily be handled by tournament organizers should they wish to do so.

  • Protection against cartels - this association is practically a cartel!

  • Player rights is something that I would expect this association to worsen, given that there have been no concrete examples of how the player council would have any actual power in this association.

  • Broadcasting rights... So you're saying that it's important to us as fans that ESL gets better deals from Twitch etc? It's not.

[–]h4ndo 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

I can't honestly tell whether that post was supposed to be a joke or not.

[–]OMellitoLegendary Eagle Master 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yes but having 1 union doing all that is not nice. Leagues could have their unions ,owners could organize themselves and players should do the same. Having One entity doing all that. And most leagues and players have no representation and should't simply accept that you would do good for them out of pure sympathy. I'm sorry but this whole thing seems like a medium/long-term unio to control the scene. Can it bring good things? Sure. Should we trust you? No fucking way.

[–]stX3 -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

You're going to get burried so i'll keep it short.
The thing I react to is WESA wanting to do all of the above, they should be seperate entities, at least three, not one. Also you mention riot, but they are exactly what I'm afraid of, one (private) entity controlling it all.

[–]Lord7777Ninjas in Pyjamas Fan 9ポイント10ポイント  (0子コメント)

The llaissez faire system which allowed for anyone to have a chance to make the big leagues is the best thing for CS. Even though it is not as bad as originally thought giving 8 teams (all of which have teams in Europe) a stronger foothold is just plain wrong.

[–]Jokin-NahastuLuminosity Gaming Fan 9ポイント10ポイント  (4子コメント)

Would you imagine if WESA told HLTV to cease covering their teams because they would prefere The Score?
Its not only other tourneys here

Even if WESA only fuck (by being inclusive) HLTV Scorebot so The Score could only cover the score live it would hit HLTV. And this is something they would not do right away but, what if in a year?

[–]Brockdog -1ポイント0ポイント  (3子コメント)

There's no reason they would do this. Any press is good press; consider it free advertisement.

[–]IniNew 4ポイント5ポイント  (1子コメント)

Press you control is much better than press you don't.

[–]Brockdog 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I think there's much to be concerned about regarding WESA and this is the least of our concern. Stay focus on the issue at hand. Daily Dot, ESPN, etc.--it's not possible to control the press, that's just far-fetched.

[–]Jokin-NahastuLuminosity Gaming Fan 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Its all bad possibilities that could happen or not happen, but there are things called interests that can force any kind of contradictory action as long they belive that in the future it would pay massively off. WESA is a collective legal entity, they can take actions against another entity if they want (covertly or overtly), and if they find they don't want or like HLTV to keep doing what they doing, they will push for a way that they want.

[–]prejt 8ポイント9ポイント  (1子コメント)

Speaking the truth. WESA will suck everyones dick for half year and second they will have control over everything they will become to big to fail whenever some dirty deal will come out.

[–]DankestKushtopkek 21ポイント22ポイント  (23子コメント)

The only way Valve will step in on this if there is a big negative respond to this WESA thing ( like it was for winter patch ).

Also one thing i don't understand about this is that WESA will also be present in LoL but what are they going to do there anyway ? I mean isn't LoL scene already controled by Riot ? This just seems like a preemptive strike at CSGO scene for them to secure exclusivity 2 years down the road.

[–]alexf0rce 15ポイント16ポイント  (4子コメント)

WESA wont be able to do shit in the League scene. The IEM events are nice, but another event organizer could do them themselves if Riot wants to boycott ESL.

[–]nbxxLegendary Eagle Master 2ポイント3ポイント  (3子コメント)

Most of the IEM events have been meaningless horseshit since the debut of LCS to be honest.

[–]GoDyrusGo 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

Yes but a subset of the viewers feel independent tournaments are a better competitive format, and they are also highly paranoid of Riot takeover. Riot pushing ESL away, the last independent tournament provider in the scene, for any reason will piss off a lot of people unless the community there is convinced WESA is bad.

[–]nbxxLegendary Eagle Master 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

I fully believe independent tournaments are a significantly better format and I believe Riot taking control and the LCS format ruined the League scene. That said, ESL events in League have been meaningless for years and ESL events have not been independent since the beginning of season 3, so even as someone who hates both Riot's format and Riot itself, I wouldn't bat an eye over Riot pushing ESL away, because ESL is objectively a non-factor in the League scene.

[–]GoDyrusGo [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Fair enough. I'm not convinced others would be as realistic about it but who knows

[–]bleeuurgghhDistinguished Master Guardian 7ポイント8ポイント  (16子コメント)

Valve can't exactly disband the organisation though?

LoL will have absolutely no reason to adopt WESA in any form if the scene sees no reason too. Unfortunately CS:GO seems to have become the guinea pig for this type of org in esports.

[–]zelleyThe Global Elite 16ポイント17ポイント  (13子コメント)

They can't disband it, but they can block all broadcasts of WESA-events.

[–]bleeuurgghhDistinguished Master Guardian 2ポイント3ポイント  (12子コメント)

Do you mean just in GOTV, or do they have the power to control CS broadcasting as a whole?

[–]Jokin-NahastuLuminosity Gaming Fan 17ポイント18ポイント  (3子コメント)

They can ban all the orgs from the Major and its done

[–]Brockdog 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

The only reason Valve would act is if the fans speak out with their wallets. At best, they will approach a wait and see attitude. Why would they get involved if business stay as usual? Honestly, I can't see Valve getting involved, because I can't see fans really boycotting ESEA/ESL events. After WESA gains a foothold, it'd be too late for any meaningful action. Even with how fucked FIFA is, people still can't get enough of their football. That's the reality we are facing.

[–]Jokin-NahastuLuminosity Gaming Fan 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Depends on what WESA do actually. If they try once to undermine Valve and their property I am sure Valve will work fast on that.

But also is wrong that people want to make a governing organization of people playing on the intelectual property of another company, that is not involved.
If they play bad their cards at any moment, all these teams are gonna be dead in a day.

[–]Brockdog 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I think it's wishful thinking to believe that this association will self-implode. If anything else, I give them enough credit that they know how to run a business and they know how to make this successful. They have all the time in the world to make themselves out to be a legitimate organization and only start enacting deleterious policies when they have everyone under contract.

[–]Ocyterin 13ポイント14ポイント  (3子コメント)

All of it. Valve has the final say.

[–]MrHartreeFock 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

If I'm correct nintendo used to forbid MLG (and perhaps others as well) from streaming smash bros brawl events. So I'd assume Valve could do the same with CS.

[–]servernewb 8ポイント9ポイント  (0子コメント)

Valve can stop anyone they want from using their Intellectual Property. CS is Valve IP, so they could prohibit ESL and anyone else from hosting CS tournaments if they wanted.

[–]EliossLuminosity Gaming Fan 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

They own the game, they can pull a Nintendo and say that only people they want can broadcast their game, its their game after all. So just kill the organization with a single move.

[–]RequillLegendary Eagle 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Valve can disallow them to use their IP and not give them a license to use it and pull all support from them and give majors to MLG or cevo or faceits.

[–]completelyownedCloud9 Fan 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

Valve can do whatever the heck they want

[–]MrBrazenTeam Liquid Fan 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

It kind of can. They can effectively cut it off at the knees by not sponsoring the events that it runs or simply not giving them the rights to the game itself.

[–]gpaularoo 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

valve would only step in to cahnge things so they would benefit.

I see no reason why valve would step in to keep things even, it only benefits players and the community, there is no advantage for them.

People are looking to valve and gaben like they are some kind of left leaning, Bernie Sanders style savior. They only give a shit about their bottom line, just the same as ESL and the rest of the teams involved in WESA.

[–]helpmymotherboardRenegades Fan 35ポイント36ポイント  (1子コメント)

WESA is bad.

HLTV confirmed.

[–]bleeuurgghhDistinguished Master Guardian 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Top notch quality shitposting my friend!

[–]skafan44 5ポイント6ポイント  (4子コメント)

What ESL is doing is basically bribing multi-gaming orgs with money up front and shared ownership down the road, which is a big deal because all the real money in eSports and sports in general comes from broadcasting rights. The long-term goal is to create an environment where these "top teams" only attend events that split their revenue with the WESA and its members.

It's power grab and a money grab by ESL and the supporting actors to more or less blackmail the community at large, and specifically other tournament organizers for extra money. Now am I happy with the idea of teams getting more money and organizers getting a bit less? Yes, I guess I am. However I am not happy with that money going basically to teams that are "invited" to the WESA. Rather I would see it go to any deserving team capable of making it to the top in terms of skill, which is the very reason sports exist. Growing prize pools and expense reimbursement, the revenue sharing that the ECS started to do, the sticker sales for the majors by Valve going to teams and players etc... is all we need to inject more money into the scene at the player/team level, and none of these made such big power plays over all of eSports (even non-CS) like what WESA is attempting.

[–]bleeuurgghhDistinguished Master Guardian -1ポイント0ポイント  (3子コメント)

I think it's too strong a connection to make this accusation too soon. But it is definitely a possibility.

Imagine you're some big thinking ESL employee. you're thinking 'How great would it be to have an org to coordinate with teams, tournament organisers and valve'. Then you suggest this to your boss. It's a great idea, and benefits everyone in the scene.

The only way a company like ESL would give the go-ahead is if there is a monetary incentive to it. Now granted easier organisation = easier money but nevertheless, they'll want a stake in the organisation.

Now imagine that a few years down the line your an ESL board member and you're thinking 'How do we increase our profits?' that is when the hold that ESL has could transfer into a monopoly on the scene.

This does not mean that WESA is a power grab right now, but letting WESA get off the ground with ESL being the driving force is dangerous.

[–]skafan44 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

Having a select group of team owners at the helm is also dangerous, no matter how many of our "favorite" teams get into the club it still will not and cannot represent the interests of the whole.

[–]bleeuurgghhDistinguished Master Guardian 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

It doesn't have to be a select few?

[–]skafan44 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Whoever is in will have a vested interest in keeping out all of those who are not (once they have crossed a credibility threshold). This isn't a feel good club, there is profit sharing and money involved, lots of it.

My reading between the lines is that this is not a player union, it's an attempt to franchise eSports across multiple games under the WESA.

[–]LeRohameauxNatus Vincere Fan 7ポイント8ポイント  (5子コメント)

I expect some Valve blog this week. They're aware of this I assure you. Do not let these greedy corporate fucks get what they want.

[–]F246810 2ポイント3ポイント  (3子コメント)

Seeing as you have a NAVI tag, I too am a NAVI fan and very disappointed they signed up to this crap. However, we did not see their contracts and they might not be all that committed.

[–]LeRohameauxNatus Vincere Fan 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

What about guardian and the rest? Do they actually know what they've signed up for?

[–]Jokin-NahastuLuminosity Gaming Fan 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

They probably can't do anything. Zews account had some PR propaganda about WESA so maybe their contracts force them to say to the public what the org wants.

[–]stX3 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

contracts are bad now, they will only get worse under wesa in this regard.

[–]ThomasFAdams 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Dont expect one. Valve will only address it if WESA is found to be working against the interests of players, teams, other leagues/lans and or the growth of the game/scene.

Considering WESA as of now havent done anything. Valve has no need to respond.

[–]nwxtTeam Astralis Fan 5ポイント6ポイント  (5子コメント)

We can think and say whatever we want but only Valve has a real chance to change things. Hope they'll do something if shit goes wrong.

[–]bebewow 3ポイント4ポイント  (2子コメント)

Players and orgs too, let's not forget that many big orgs are still not in WESA, even though they don't have the best teams they're still big orgs and are pretty popular, they bring the profit (C9, CLG, Liquid). Astralis and LG are also not on it yet.

[–]nwxtTeam Astralis Fan 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Sure, but unfortunately most orgs are already on it. Actually, Astralis might not join because it's run by players and they know that joining WESA wouldn't be the best choice.

[–]maxintosMaster Guardian I 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

But after all the big teams join and WESA starts to host the biggest tournaments, Astralis will be the ones that will lose money and exposure by not participating and will be forced to join.

[–]gpaularoo 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

we have the power. imo the players for the most part represent us. They should make a stand. The second their contracts are up, leave their team, find like minded people that will represent the players and community and start over.

If we kick up enough stink, if we band together, we can structure this scene exactly how we want it.

Hell, thats exactly how we have been doing it for over 10 years.

[–]nwxtTeam Astralis Fan 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

if we band together

We're on Reddit, c'mon.

On a serious note, I wish this will happen.

[–]boq_Freelance Caster 12ポイント13ポイント  (20子コメント)

In regards to the 2nd paragraph, I'm actually more worried about corporate money from people outside eSports than anything else. ESL may be the boogieman for many but at least they are established and understand the nuances of the genre. Companies coming in trying to make a quick buck when they don't know the lay of the land can cause irreparable harm (i.e. CGS) and it was what worried me initially in regards to e-league.

[–]ThomasFAdams 20ポイント21ポイント  (12子コメント)

In less than a year ESL went from the #1 highest paying League to third behind ELeague and ECS. MTG after acquiring ESL, DH and ESEA tried to form an exclusive league to counter ELeague. Which inevitable failed from community backlash.

This is MTG and certain teams trying to create long term relevancy. Nomads line of "Anyone can do something in esports, anyone can start a league, and work their way up. Anyone can start a team, get some good players, and join the big leagues." is what MTG and the signed on Team Orgs of WESA dont want. An atmosphere where they always have a seat at the table is whats desired.

[–]boq_Freelance Caster 6ポイント7ポイント  (9子コメント)

It is a bit interesting that they are saying work for WESA started 18 months ago. That timeline would collide with the exclusivity story that broke. Either that was the original intention and they changed course, or we had it wrong and WESA was always the goal. We don't know EVERY detail, only what was presented to us so its hard to say.

I also don't think the community has a proper appreciation for how big ESL is. While e-league and ecs currently have larger prize pools, I don't expect that to last. Both were debuted mid season for ESL. Now that the season is over, I would expect ESL to bump the prize pool significantly.

I don't necessarily agree that the orgs involved nor ESL need to worry about long term relevancy. The teams mentioned in this, are established enough that it is not a problem for them and ESL is still a juggernaut in eSports. You compare e-league and ECS to ESL mentioning their relative prize pools but you forget that ESL is more than just CS:GO where the others are 1 dimensional.

[–]Newbie__101Gold Nova III 0ポイント1ポイント  (5子コメント)

Remember that E-league is only doing CSGO for season 1. They are going to try a different game in season 2 (looking like DOTA?) and will probably determine based on viewership/etc which games return or if new games happen in season 3, etc.

[–]boq_Freelance Caster 0ポイント1ポイント  (4子コメント)

Is this confirmed? Im having a hard time finding anything on it.

[–]Newbie__101Gold Nova III 1ポイント2ポイント  (3子コメント)

http://www.ibtimes.com/just-nfl-nba-mlb-esports-leagues-need-commissioners-turner-unveils-tbs-eleague-exec-2329517

"Turner plans on airing a second season of "ELeague" later in the year with a new game and set of teams. Partnering with Valve for "CS:GO," it's possible the second season could feature "Dota 2." In the free-to-play multiplayer online battle arena game, two teams of five compete to destroy the other's "Ancient" building located in their respective strongholds on opposite sides of the map."

Reading on http://www.e-league.com/ they are very careful to say, "ELEAGUE will debut in 2016 with tournaments featuring Counter-Strike: Global Offensive (CS:GO)." (emphasis mine)

They have never indicated anything that states that CSGO is more than 1 season and have been very careful to talk about Season 1 being CSGO. I suspect they are still nailing down the game for the second season.

Let me tweet at the writer of that article and see if he can confirm/shed light on that.

[–]boq_Freelance Caster 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

Gotcha, this is what I was looking for. I did see the part on the site that said it would debut in season 1 with CS:GO but nothing to indicate season 2 wouldn't be the same.

[–]Newbie__101Gold Nova III 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

I agree with you there has been very little to no actual discussion/reporting of future seasons of ELeague with many folks (on twitter/reddit/etc) just assuming it will continue with CSGO, because we come from the CSGO world and esports leagues usually mean a single sport. I will reply if I get any more info from the author of that article, but I would love for more folks to actively look into it and ask the ELeague folks about it directly.

[–]boq_Freelance Caster 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

I know some people involved with e-league that might be able to get more info as well. I don't think they will be too interested in prying though, as the job is a big step for them.

[–]Official-b0wie_Legendary Eagle 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

I don't necessarily agree that the orgs involved nor ESL need to worry about long term relevancy. The teams mentioned in this, are established...

ESL may not need to worry about long term relevancy but orgs do.

These orgs are joining WESA to have guaranteed exposure, guaranteed revenue streams, and most importantly to stay relevant when something happens within their org.

If for some reason Fnatic breaks up and their team becomes the equivalent of the Detroit Lions isn't it a win for the org because they won't be replaced?

A structure like this makes it hard for teams that do have success (Australis) to gain entry if long term exclusivity is negotiated for other teams (unlike leagues).

Also, within this model the orgs involved are likely payed fairly - this does not guarantee that the players do as well.

If a star player and org disagree about salary who has the bargaining power?

Is it the star player: be paid unfairly or compete in areas with less exposure and money?

Or is it the org: who can quickly fill the vacant position?

I don't think that these problems will all happen immediately following the launch of an exclusive Esports league but they sure will come up eventually.

[–]boq_Freelance Caster 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

Here is another question:

What happens if Fnatic dissolves entirely? Does the former owner retain the spot? Do the players? What if the team leaves Fnatic and signs with another org? Does the contract follow the players or the owner? If the players sign to a non-WESA org, would they be able to join?

There are so many questions and we have answers to very few of them.

If a star player and org disagree about salary, the player is still in charge. The org still wants to win. Winning money is not what orgs care about, being at the top is. Even if being a part of WESA is exposure, being the worst team on the list doesn't do you favors when it comes to sponsors/partners.

[–]Official-b0wie_Legendary Eagle 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

There are so many questions and we have answers to very few of them.

Agreed - we don't have that information to go over yet, but I hope it comes to light before the ink has dried.
I guess the my hesitation to call this benign is that I don't see the advantage to WESA vs existing leagues.
In Esports right now what needs to be changed? And how does WESA address and improve it?
The last question(s) wasn't totally hypothetical if you want to keep discussing :)

[–]Bllets 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

And maybe they have a "dream" of controlling the scene in the future as FIFA partly does for football.

[–]eliteKMALegendary Eagle Master -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

In less than a year ESL went from the #1 highest paying League to third behind ELeague and ECS.

ESL announced their pricepool before ECS and EL were a thing. They were the highest paying before and they may be again after.

MTG after acquiring ESL, DH and ESEA tried to form an exclusive league to counter ELeague.

It wasn't to counter EL since the exclusivity league was prepared well before EL was even announced.

[–]bebewow 2ポイント3ポイント  (3子コメント)

e-league seems good tho, the only thing different with them is that it'll be broadcasted on TV but outside of that it looks just like another regular tournament. What I don't like is that Dreamhack, ESEA and ESL are all owned by one big company now and they're trying to make CS a monopoly.

[–]skafan44 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

e-league is only good if they show us their method for team relegation. If it's going to be the same 24 teams permanently then it's not good.

The only good league is a league with at least some measure of relegation or qualification process. For a good example of how to do it right, see the majors and their respective qualifiers / minors.

[–]boq_Freelance Caster 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

CGS seemed good at first too. What makes E-League good is that they are basically there to cash and sign checks. They delegated the work to people that knew what they were doing. The minds behind CGS were outsiders.

[–]bebewow -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

Exactly, E-League's purpose is clear and they aren't fucking shit up and stepping outside their boundaries.

[–]mszhang1212 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

CGS is a perfect example for reasonable trepidation towards this "league."

[–]boq_Freelance Caster 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

E-league and CGS is a greater comparison. E-League is an outsider, entering the scene after its gotten big to make money. ESL has been here from the start, helping it grow. Ironically more people trusted E-league at first than people who trust ESL now.

[–]rantz0Silver I 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

ESL seem to be lazy. They only improve their standards when they absolutely have to, instead of staying on par, and I think I also remember them being the slowest to pay out prize money out of any tourny organizer (for sc2). They've always seemed a bit scummy.

[–]Nordic_MarksmanThe Global Elite 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

A board of team owners and organiser are supposed to make it better for the players, if that is the case wouldn't a recent retired player who has been outspoken about player rights included on the board to make sure the players have a say higher up. A org that has all the money at the top and no incentive to help the bottom can't be a step in the right direction.

[–]gpaularoo 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

1 + 1 = 2 bro.

The rest is just corporate bullshit trying to convince us if we believe in them things will be good.

And it may very well be for a couple years, but there will come a time when WESA must choose between players/community and their profits.

[–]Shinodacsmousesports Fan 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Wise words. I like the comparison with the FIFA. He got a point there.

[–]Clutchtrip 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

WESA sounds good, but the completely wrong people are in charge. If independent agents and players were in charge I would maybe believe the motives are as pure as they make it look like. How does anyone believe a group of businessmen are unbiased and ever would make a decision that would potential harm their business? I think this can never work in a good way, because i firmly believe that the most powerful organizations in CS GO, above anything else, are interested in keeping their position in the market, which not necessarily has anything to do with what is best for the players or this game as far as the e-sports scene goes.

[–]thorizzle117Counter Logic Gaming Fan 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

+1, get this post some more traction.

[–]MysticRUN 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

VALVe is most likely already on it.. from what i've witnessed they don't speak up until further notice..

[–]BlitzzfuryTeam EnvyUS Fan 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yeessss.

[–]BritacornSplyce Fan 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

Can someone give me a summary of what WESA is?

[–]deluhi 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Something like what FIFA is for football.

[–]shadycharacter2Ninjas in Pyjamas Fan [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

fertile soil for nepotism and corruption

[–]coolsilverSilver II 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

100% agreement. Valve where are you?

[–]markkrjLuminosity Gaming Fan 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I would agree with Wesa if it was founded by players...

[–]OlerasmussenTeam Astralis Fan 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

This thread is over my leauge

[–]ThrannnLegendary Eagle 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Leaving CS to its own devices, in essence only providing infrastructure is in my mind a masterpiece.

i really like this sentence because this is what i also think about cs. look at all the other esports title wich are controlled by their devs like a dictator. in which other esports game can you just start a surf championchip or something like this? i feel like we have more freedom than any other game.

[–]shadycharacter2Ninjas in Pyjamas Fan [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

It will go through anyway, unless Valve shuts it down.

The man holding the money always wins and apparently he had enough to convince every major organization.

[–]NicozyffsFnatic Fanatic 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

great post

[–]iPurrpleCloud9 Fan 0ポイント1ポイント  (4子コメント)

I've been out of the loop, can someone explain the whole fiasco of the WESA problem

[–]ScabendariSilver I 0ポイント1ポイント  (3子コメント)

Basically, ESL trying to rebrand itself into the NHL/NFL/etc of CSGO.

[–]iPurrpleCloud9 Fan 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

Oh I don't see how that is bad? Provides great exposure for our scene.

[–]ScabendariSilver I 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

There is a pretty good upside to csgo getting a central league that the pro scene is based around. The issue is, ESL hasnt exactly been the best tournament organizer in the past. Other fairly large tournament organizers like MLG, CEVO, etc havent been contacted either, so it seems pretty clear that this is a move by ESL to try to shove competition out of the esport, rather than trying to create a unified scene.

[–]iPurrpleCloud9 Fan 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

That I was unaware of and probably is the main reason everyone is upset. Thanks for explaining.

[–]wholkFaZe Clan Fan -2ポイント-1ポイント  (8子コメント)

One thing I dont get is that for the past year everybody has been ranting about how we need an organization like FIFA or NBA to really be the backbone of the industry, to deal directly with valve concerning game changing updates and deal with infringements like what happened with the iBP and Epsilon guys. Now that we are on our way to have such a thing everybody's mad and rejecting it. What gives?

By this I'm not saying it is perfect right of the bat but regardless it's a step forward and that's all we can ask. It's true ESL seems to be running things behind the scenes and I'm ok with it as long they dont fuck it up like they always do. Hopefully they've learnt with the previous mistakes.

[–]skafan44 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

This idea that eSports absolutely has to follow in the footsteps of regular sports with a large franchise model is hogwash. The truth is that a few kids in their basement and a small salary putting their heart and soul into the game can actually achieve a great deal without anyone's help at all. Go a little further and give them a gaming house, a coach, and a few other supports and they'll have a chance to compete with the best in the world if the talent and work ethic is there. The truth is that it does not take tens of millions of dollars in support infrastructure to produce winning eSports teams, and it won't ever be that way, by the very nature of it. Even now the top 20-30 teams in the world in CS:GO are all capable of taking games off each other, and many of those teams have very little infrastructure supporting them compared to the others. Past a certain point there is just huge diminishing returns for teams to improve regardless of how much money you throw at it.

[–]return-zeroLuminosity Gaming Fan 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

I think a lot of people like myself believe that there is a need for a player's union, an independent body that represents professional e-sports player's rights. The calls for another NBA or NFL usually are met with a lot of backlash, and rightly so.

[–]Bllets 3ポイント4ポイント  (2子コメント)

To quote myself from another comment in this thread

CS:GO could definitely use a controlling body setting up general rules and shit. The only fair part to do this would be an non-bias organisation, such as Valve. ESL is definitely not a non-bias organisation and I doubt they will ever be it.

[–]wholkFaZe Clan Fan -2ポイント-1ポイント  (1子コメント)

The problem is that if we wait for Valve to step up we'll never get to see anything done. I'm giving the benefit of the doubt to ESL on this one. I like the idea and it has potential if it is done the right way.

[–]Bllets 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

The thing is though ESL has gotten the benefit of the doubt before and not really done anything with it.

It is also insanely convenient that no other organisation/league could join within the 18 months discussion.

[–]rdee3 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

If by everybody wanted a governing organization, you mean a vocal minority, then sure. You say that IBP and epsilon are "problems," but the very same organizations which already exist elsewhere in esports routinely ban match-fixers indefinitely. Which way do you want it?

And this isn't an organization like FIFA or the NBA. Imagine if the NBA was managed and controlled exclusively by eight west coast teams and a single NBA sponsor, but also gave themselves unanimous control over all other teams. There are significant conflicts of interest between what the 8 teams want and what the rest of the teams would want -- ultimately, the other non-member teams get fucked.

This is what this is; A single event organizer, and a hand full of top european teams combining their effective power to boycott and destroy other organizations for their own self interests. Until WESA incorporates the other tournament organizers and teams, this is purely a power grab for monopoly and money.

[–]MikeTheAverageRedditLuminosity Gaming Fan 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Because it's ESL controlling it, a company that wishes to control the community having a 505 share in a company that wishes to manage the teams and players. What could possibly go wrong?

[–]cenTTThe Global Elite 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

In all honesty everyone is bashing WESA an making them seem like some evil company but there's no proof of anything yet. We have no idea how good or bad this will be for the scene. We should give them some time to prove themselves before coming to any conclusions and immediately say that "Valve needs to step up". WESA already said that they contacted Valve about all of this anyway and they didn't seem to worry, so why should we worry so much already? Let's give them time.

I do believe that if gamers want E-Sports to grow and become more respected we will need some kind of organization like FIFA or NBA. It doesn't matter if it will be WESA or another company, we will need it some day to help manage and organize everything.

[–]1nsider1nfo -1ポイント0ポイント  (4子コメント)

This is not a big deal. If the teams themselves would just all form together and NOT sign the contracts to join WESA then it can never happen. If it is truly a bad idea then ask yourself -- why are all the top and your favorite teams hopping on board with them?

[–]BlitzzfuryTeam EnvyUS Fan 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

Because chances are the players are under contractual obligation to do what the org says, and given the NiP CEO is on the board.. you can see why people like GeT_RighT have to go along with this.

[–]1nsider1nfo 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Thanks I didn't know that.

[–]F246810 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

That's not a strong argument.

It can very well be that it is their interest to get on board with this, but not in the interest of the entire esports communities.

Also, they can all be wrong. I'm sure you can name a couple of examples from history where groups of people were wrong about something over a longer period of time...

[–]maxintosMaster Guardian I 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Team owners and managers are on the board. Players probably only knew that they will be participating in some tourneys.

[–]Stranded_MonkeyiBUYPOWER Fan -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

if WESA doesnt unban ibp they're a monopoly who only want to ruin it for the players

[–]soapgoatTeam Liquid Fan -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

like, fuck this shit... im out, on to overwatch boys.

[–]uncandyQLSilver II -5ポイント-4ポイント  (14子コメント)

Counter-Strike is becoming to huge of an entity that Valve will eventually lose the rights of this ip. Pretty sure there are laws that explain this, and this scenario sounds a lot like that.

[–]BlitzzfuryTeam EnvyUS Fan 5ポイント6ポイント  (8子コメント)

Lmfao what are you even talking about? This is not open source software, this is not code. This is a game that Valve own. Every time you open the game (if you don't have -novid enabled) it says "Valve".

This is their game through and through. Hence why they are able to ban iBP from Majors, even when those Majors are primarily run by other companies.

[–]uncandyQLSilver II 0ポイント1ポイント  (7子コメント)

Who owns Football, basketball, Baseball etc? I mean, my comment is partially bullshit.

[–]NiomeisteriBUYPOWER Fan 2ポイント3ポイント  (4子コメント)

How would they be able to lose their rights? They still own it, it's not like football.

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