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europe

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submitted by United KingdomSlyRatchet - stickied post
I know, I know. This is literally more exciting than the Ukraine Crisis and Charlie Hedbo rolled into one! /r/Europe has a nice new shiny set of rules!
Just a quick pre-amble to explain why we think this was necessary.
We've had virtually the same set of rules since, well, virtually forever and the sub has groan a huge amount since then. The way we moderate this subreddit has changed to adapt to the new challenges of dealing with almost three hunred thousand readers. As a subreddit gets larger, the chances of it degrading into an /r/adviceanimals-esc mess increase, which is why the need for a more involved mod team increases with size. Many of you will have noticed the crackdown on unsourced images recently, which is part of this.
We've also not been very transparent in our modding here. We've not kept you very onboard with the changes to modding policies. That's a large reason for updating the rules in the sidebar. We thnk that all users will enjoy themselves more if they are more aware of what is going on behind the scenes, and so hopefully this is a sign that we are very willing to do that.
So without further à deux, here they are.
Bannable
1.1 Bigotry, Hate Speech and Xenophobia of any form (Sexism, Racism, Homophobia, Islamophobia, Russophobia, Anti-Semitism, et al) are not tolerated here. To provide further clarity, we here is a small list of examples. Please use your common sense to interpret this rule.
  • It is ok to criticise immigration.
  • it is ok to criticise members of minority groups.
  • It is not ok to suggest that members of different cultures or races are incapable of cohabiting.
  • It is not ok to suggest that some races or cultures are inherently better than others.
  • It is not ok to make pejorative statements about large cultural, national or ethnic groups especially when these groups are not entered into by choice (e.g. race, gender,sexuality).
  • Additionally, Holocaust Denial (of either the 1915 Armenian Genocide or the 1941-5 Holocaust of the Jews, homosexuals, the disabled, Jehovah's Witnesses, etc.) is completely unacceptable.
1.2 Personal Attacks that do not add any substance to a conversation will be de-listed [removed]. If this continues a ban may be placed.
1.3 Spamming is not tolerated here. Spam will be removed. If spamming continues despite warnings from moderators, a ban will be given. This applies for spamming of charitable causes too, but please message the mod team about this [write '/r/europe' in the recipient field] if you have a charitable cause you would like to post about.
1.4 We reserve the right to remove any bot accounts.
1.5 Circumventing a previous ban is not allowed. Keep this in mind concerning §4.2
Removable
2.1 Info-graphics, images, selfs posts and other similar content which makes (an) assertion(s) but lacks (a) source(s) will be removed. The original submitter [OP] should post the source (if it is not cited in the submission itself) as soon as possible. If the OP receives a message from a moderator stating that their post has been delisted [removed] due to lack of source, they may still provide the source and the the submission will be relisted [unremoved]. But moderators frequently require hours to respond to such messages.
2.2 Reaction Gifs and Memes are not allowed here.
2.3 Editorialising is not acceptable. Editorialising is simply the act of inserting an opinion into a (submission) title. You should, in most cases, use the title on the page you are linking to. However, in the case of YouTube, you may have to be inventive and attempt to create an unpartisan and neutral title if the one the YouTube video uses is clearly partisan and bias.
2.4 Unreliable domains including but not limited to, Blogspot, Tumblr, Facebook and WordPress will be removed.
2.5 mods reserve the right to remove egregiously low quality content under limited circumstances
2.6 content which does not fit with the theme of this subreddit and/or is not relevant here shall be removed (e.g. domestic US politics or economics in Argentina)
Community Guidelines
3.1 We request that users who post non-English articles also post a translation (even if just a machine translation) to help the forum engage with the post. However, this is only a request, and posts will not be removed for this reason.
3.2 Please use the upvote/downvote to mark interesting content, rather than agreement/disagreement. We encourage engaging civil criticism instead of downvoting an unpopular opinion.
3.3 Please report users that you suspect of breaking our rules or the reddiquette by using the report button visible bellow each comment or submission and state the rule number which is being broken.
Side Notes
4.1 This is a moderated forum, to maintain a civil environment, and a high level of debate we reserve the right to actively moderate the subreddit as is reasonable to achieve those aims.
4.2 If you have been banned once you are may appeal after one week. Keep this in mind regarding rule 1.5
4.3 if a delisted [removed] thread is still gathering unwanted attention (especially as a bigoted/xenophobic circle jerk) it will be "nuked" which has the effect of locking the thread down completely.
4.4 The Reddiquette is part of this subreddit and we will moderate according to it. If you break reddiquette you are effectively breaking our subreddit rules too. If you have not yet read the reddiquette, please read it here
We thank you for your co-operation and look forward to improving this subreddit on all of your behalves.
top 200 commentsshow all 320
[–]Soviet Reunion3dom 15 points16 points17 points  (4 children)
Often I see interesting but unpopular comments downvoted into oblivion - and often they are the most interesting part since they show diversity of opinions and/or unique level of stupidity (or high intelligence) of the poster. Remove the arrow from interface maybe? It's being used to demonstrate disagreement mostly - against rules and common sense.
If a post doesn't contribute to discussion it can be reported and deleted anyway.
[–]Indifference is the best kind of tolerance (/s)Parabellum8g 6 points7 points8 points  (0 children)
This! The larger a sub grows, the more mob rule will replace constructive criticism. I think this subreddit will profit from such a measure - I have seen it used with great effect on much smaller subreddits before.
And as you said: mods can simply remove post that cross the line. We don't need downvotes for that.
[–]No borders, no nations, fuck deportationsGunvorsejl 0 points1 point2 points  (2 children)
Unfortunately that's just a CSS thing, if you turn of subreddit style the arrow will be back. Just report stuff, the mods are pretty good about it.
[–]European UnionInflatableTomato [score hidden]  (1 child)
The objective isn't necessarily to eliminate downvotes completely, but to reduce them significantly; subreddit style changes could be good enough for that.
[–]No borders, no nations, fuck deportationsGunvorsejl [score hidden]  (0 children)
Yea but I want to be able to downvote neo nazis. Though usually it's me getting downvoted for arguing with them.
[–]GermanyMahakar 55 points56 points57 points  (10 children)
The culture in Saudi Arabia is worse than in Norway in every way I can think of. Do I get banned now?
[–]The Netherlandspiwikiwi 9 points10 points11 points  (0 children)
Yeah, I have problems with that one as well.
[–]SlovakiaMaslo59 19 points20 points21 points  (1 child)
This. Such rule is stupid. Cultures are often prescriptive, not just descriptive, and as any prescriptive moral system, must be open to criticism, comparison and ranking. I believe that the culture of Norway or other European countries is better than culture where most people believe you should be stoned for adultery or apostasy. This rule will only serve to ban legitimate opinions. Cultural relativism is as wrong as moral relativism, because cultures contain strong moral codes.
[–]Indifference is the best kind of tolerance (/s)Parabellum8g 4 points5 points6 points  (0 children)
Talking about cultural relativism: I really wonder why it gained so much appeal in certain circles in the past years. It is completely ok - if not obligatory - to understand the culture you are criticizing to a certain extent, but that should not necessarily lead to agreement, unnecessary courtesy or even undeserved respect.
I can remember an argument I had with some other Dutch guy on a stormy winter night about 3 to 4 years ago. Him being rather far-left (which is ok, just saying!), he wanted to talk with me about immigration, culture, etc. I will not portray him in a bad manner here: the guy actually was pretty smart and witty and he actually got me in the corner one or two times during that argument. But as time passed on (as in....hours later) I started to notice that he used the same old argument over and over again. In the end I realized that he did not get much further than doing away with any type of criticism by saying: 'Yes, but that's culture!'.
It made him refuse to judge another culture as he believed that people outside of the culture of subject are incapable of having a decent opinion about it. His rigid reluctance to draw any conclusions felt rather religious.
[–]BavariaBadGoyWithAGun [score hidden]  (4 children)
Don't worry, a few more years of mass immigration and that'll no longer be the case, and we'll finally have equality.
[–]No borders, no nations, fuck deportationsGunvorsejl [score hidden]  (3 children)
Sounds great, now if only all the racists would go move to Russia or Lapland or something, that would be pretty cool. Though not for the Russians or Laplanders I guess.
Edit: You're a holocaust denier!. What a charmer!
[–]European UnionMapleyy [score hidden]  (1 child)
And an Islamophobe, racist, and anti-Semite! What a surprise. :|
[–]No borders, no nations, fuck deportationsGunvorsejl [score hidden]  (0 children)
The quality of people drawn to this sub to defend free speech! They couldn't possibly have an agenda could they?
[–]BulgariaAgentGotse 22 points23 points24 points  (5 children)
We've also not been very transparent in our modding here. We've not kept you very onboard with the changes to modding policies. That's a large reason for updating the rules in the sidebar. We thnk that all users will enjoy themselves more if they are more aware of what is going on behind the scenes, and so hopefully this is a sign that we are very willing to do that.
Talking about transperency of modding, is there some sort of way to see what gets deleted/hidden from the sub? I have seen some threads disappear from the sub frontpage with no explanation given whatsoever.
[–]United KingdomSlyRatchet[S] -3 points-2 points-1 points  (4 children)
I don't know of any simple way to make the mod logs visible to the users. We could invest a lot of time and energy in developing a way, but the mod team is very over stretched as it is (it took us two weeks just to draft this rule update). So it's unlikely we'll be able to do that in the near future, sorry.
As for giving explanations, we do. Everytime I remove something I leave a comment explaining that the psot has been removed and which rules have been breached. However, if I left another post in its place with a big 'sorry removed for rule 1.1' sign and linking to the original post, it would rather defeat the point if removing it in the first place.
[–]BulgariaAgentGotse 2 points3 points4 points  (3 children)
Cool, thanks. I realise modding this sub can be a pain in the ass and takes a lot of work.
Anyway, I think the most transparent sub when it comes to moderation is /r/anarchism. They have a separate sub called /r/metanarchism where they discuss everything about moderation and have transparency logs. By the looks of it, the transparency logs are automated. Just a suggestion if you decide this is worth the effort.
[–]United KingdomSlyRatchet[S] 5 points6 points7 points  (2 children)
I'll take a look into it.
There's a few other subreddits who have worthwhile ideas we could learn from (apparently /r/denmark has some good regular stickied discussion threads).
[–]Fryslân (Living in Overijssel)TheByzantineDragon 2 points3 points4 points  (1 child)
Don't know why you're getting downvoted Sly, have some upvotes on me.
[–]GermanyJustSmall 6 points7 points8 points  (0 children)
People are upset that someone reminded them not to downvote based on opinion so they downvote /u/SlyRatchet for their opinion.
[–]BulgariaAgentGotse 28 points29 points30 points  (24 children)
Additionally, Holocaust Denial (of either the 1915 Armenian Genocide or the 1941-5 Holocaust of the Jews, homosexuals, the disabled, Jehovah's Witnesses, etc.) is completely unacceptable.
The holocaust doesn't refer to the Armenian genocide. Do you mean genocide in general? Or only those two?
[–]United KingdomSlyRatchet[S] comment score below threshold-6 points-5 points-4 points  (23 children)
I mean specifically these two genocides because these two specifically have an overwhelming amount of evidence to support them and because Holocaust denial in these two cases is only ever used to justify xenophobia and racial hatred. They're also two of the only genocides that you are actually legally forbiden from denying in several European countries.
[–]can into spaceTollaneer 18 points19 points20 points  (3 children)
"They're also two of the only genocides that you are actually legally forbiden from denying in several European countries"
Not true. Polish law forbids denying "Nazi crimes, Communist crimes, other crimes against peace, humanity and war crimes.". Just switch it to genocide denial as a whole and keep it at that. Also - Holocaust and Armenia are not only well-documented genocides. Rwanda, Cambodia, Burundi are all documented fairly well, and nobody sane denies that they happened. Only real place that could cause some problems would be consideration of Holodomor as genocide.
[–]JoeBidenBot 1 point2 points3 points  (2 children)
yep
[–]Official representative of the Flemish people on /r/EuropeJebusGobson 0 points1 point2 points  (1 child)
^ behold, mods, your first crappy bot to ban under the new rules!
[–]JoeBidenBot 1 point2 points3 points  (0 children)
I don't told you my first name, that's suspicius.
[–]BulgariaAgentGotse 14 points15 points16 points  (7 children)
I've never seen anybody deny the Holocaust here. I've seen several posters with Turkish flairs who have denied the Armenian genocide though. They certainly were not justifying xenophobia, nor racial hatred. I felt like the posters didn't want to believe this actually occurred because it would be too embarrassing to admit it. Plus, I don't think the Turkish government is properly educating its citizens on the matter obviously, so it's not like anybody who denies it is doing this with malicious intentions.
[–]United KingdomSlyRatchet[S] comment score below threshold-7 points-6 points-5 points  (6 children)
I've never seen anybody deny the Holocaust here
And why might that be?
[–]BulgariaAgentGotse 10 points11 points12 points  (1 child)
I've been posting here for years. This has never been written in the rules.
[–]Fred_Flintstone 9 points10 points11 points  (0 children)
Any/all posts that mention facts that go against the official Holocaust story are removed and the writers banned, thats why you wont see them. Nobody really denies the holocaust happened, but some deny that gas chambers were used in some camps due to certain evidence theyve seen, and some question the official death toll. For example Auschwitz changed the number of deaths from 4million to 1.1million in 1989 but the number 6 million didnt change, and sometimes people ask why that is the case. I might be banned for answering this, I hope not...
[–]Official representative of the Flemish people on /r/EuropeJebusGobson 4 points5 points6 points  (3 children)
I don't understand where these downvotes against you in this thread are coming from... Is Stormfront brigading or something?
[–]AustraliaSavannaJeff 4 points5 points6 points  (2 children)
Them, or /r/european.
EDIT:
[–]UpboatsfedoraplzxD 3 points4 points5 points  (0 children)
Or judging by the comments here it could be a mix of both
[–]Fryslân (Living in Overijssel)TheByzantineDragon 2 points3 points4 points  (0 children)
I've tagged a shitload of /r/european redditors with the 'neo-nazi' tag, I see a lot more of them here than in usual threads.
[–]United States of Americathewimsey 10 points11 points12 points  (0 children)
I think what's he's sort of getting at is that "holocaust" is a term (from the bible and elsewhere) that originally referred to burnt offerings (as sacrifices to various gods) or burning things up completely. It came to refer to the Nazi genocide because of the ovens; it's not a generic word for genocide.
[–]AustriaSaltySolomon 8 points9 points10 points  (2 children)
Rename the rule to genocide denial and everybody will be happy. And make a sub-rule that makes examples.
[–]TheFreeloader 6 points7 points8 points  (1 child)
I am sure there exist some dubious claims about alleged genocides which people should not be prohibited from discussing here.
[–]AustriaSaltySolomon -2 points-1 points0 points  (0 children)
Then specify those proven without doubt.
[–][deleted]  (4 children)
[deleted]
    [–]kradem -1 points0 points1 point  (0 children)
    Srebrenica has been the only genocide in Europe after WWII, not put it there could be understand as hypocrisy (as Holocaust is sort of already "covered" in antisemitism part, and Armenian genocide doesn't have "a verdict").
    [–]Bulgariateheroic 34 points35 points36 points  (1 child)
    Reaction Gifs and Memes are not allowed here.
    Jet fuel can't melt dank memes.
    [–]GogoGGK 7 points8 points9 points  (0 children)
    You can't keep a good meemster banned!
    [–][deleted]  (11 children)
    [deleted]
      [–]United KingdomSlyRatchet[S,M] 10 points11 points12 points  (9 children)
      If it's in the comments section, then it's fine.
      All of the "removal" rules only really apply to submissions. What happens in the comments section is fair game, so long as nobody starts advocading the mass murder of refugees, or other seriously xenophobic nonsense.
      [–]United States of AmericaKosherNazi 13 points14 points15 points  (6 children)
      It is not ok to suggest that members of different cultures or races are incapable of cohabiting.
      So a submission which says zionist jews and ISIS members may not be capable of cohabitating is bannable, but we can say it in the comments?
      [–]United KingdomSlyRatchet[S] 3 points4 points5 points  (5 children)
      I wouldn't call Zionism or ISIS a culture. I'd call one an ideology and the other a state.
      [–]United States of AmericaKosherNazi 13 points14 points15 points  (1 child)
      I predict the 'ideology of kebab' making an appearance here soon.
      [–]The NetherlandsConducteur 3 points4 points5 points  (0 children)
      Germans do love their kebab though.
      [–]Finlandnikomo 3 points4 points5 points  (0 children)
      Define what culture means in the rules, or the rules are meaningless.
      [–]DenmarkMrStrange15 3 points4 points5 points  (0 children)
      Could you then please define what you mean by culture in the OP?
      [–]near Germanyboq -1 points0 points1 point  (0 children)
      The rules are ok. This subreddit is a regular target of brigades and it's really no surprise that you guys have to fight back with tougher rules to keep it open.
      [–]PolandSkyPL 3 points4 points5 points  (0 children)
      All of the "removal" rules only really apply to submissions
      If so, then it should be clearly specified in the rules.
      [–]Swedenhitchsslap -2 points-1 points0 points  (0 children)
      [–]Fryslân (Living in Overijssel)TheByzantineDragon 3 points4 points5 points  (0 children)
      I think they don't mean things like that. Making jokes like that is still possible in the comments, but keep it from becoming a dank meme fest.
      [–]markzman 73 points74 points75 points  (56 children)
      It is not ok to suggest that some races or cultures are inherently better than others.
      So suggesting that cultures which endorse things like FGM or human sacrifices are inferior to cultures that don't will result in a ban? Sorry, but these rules blow.
      [–]Czechistan!falconberger 66 points67 points68 points  (11 children)
      From now on, saying that ISIS's culture is backwards will be considered edgy.
      [–]mega_wallace 52 points53 points54 points  (3 children)
      ISIS only seems backward because you are analyzing their behavior from a hegemonic position of systemic hetronormative eurocentric privilege. ISIS is certainly not backward; rather, they are simply differently-forward. :)
      /s
      [–]New Zealandoreography 22 points23 points24 points  (0 children)
      Haha "Differently Forwarded".
      I understand the need for creating a tolerant community, but suggesting that the European values of democracy and freedom of speech, religion, and assembly are somehow equal to that of the medieval gulf states is preposterous.
      [–]PortugalDanielShaww 17 points18 points19 points  (0 children)
      eurocentric
      Reminds me of that criticism by edgy historians who really should have known better, when they say that the history we teach our pupils is very "Eurocentric". Why goodness me, if they aren't living in Europe or a country whose history was painted by Europe countries (such as the US), why wouldn't their outlook be from a Euro perspective?! Surely China doesn't complain that their history is too sinocentric, do they?
      [–]Czechistan!falconberger 1 point2 points3 points  (0 children)
      LOL, reminds me of Rimmer here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5WgUktfdDy4
      [–]can into spaceTollaneer 11 points12 points13 points  (6 children)
      ISIS is not a race or a culture, it's a group within a certain cultural sphere.
      [–]Czechistan!falconberger 13 points14 points15 points  (5 children)
      It's culture too.
      [–]can into spaceTollaneer 12 points13 points14 points  (4 children)
      They don't have distinctive art, customs, language, behaviours, etc.. Not every seperate group is a separate culture.
      [–]Rano_Its 6 points7 points8 points  (0 children)
      every seperate group is a separate culture.
      It should be fairly easy to make this argument. You can easily find examples in social psychology of small groups with norms that could be related to linguistic (slang, neologisms), behavioural (gait, posture), vestimentary code, etc. All this and more can be referred to as the culture of a group.
      And don't forget that a group is two people or more. The group Daesh definitely has a culture. Even if some parts of it may be borrowed from or shared with other groups.
      It just seems like you are redefining the concept to suit yourself.
      [–]Czechistan!falconberger 6 points7 points8 points  (2 children)
      They have distinctive customs and behaviors. Basically any group of interacting people is a culture - reddit has a culture too
      [–]can into spaceTollaneer -6 points-5 points-4 points  (1 child)
      Reddit has way more distinctive and unique behaviours and customs than ISIS.
      [–]No borders, no nations, fuck deportationsGunvorsejl 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
      It's an armed supremacist group. You wouldn't call the KKK or the IRA a culture either. Also I'm pretty sure the mods aren't going to ban anyone for criticising IS. Racists are just upset they'll be banned for their shit.
      [–]The NetherlandsTheothor 13 points14 points15 points  (3 children)
      Yeah 1.1 is a bit too broad for my liking, I just hope the mods have the same common sense as I do.
      Because of course I should be able to suggest some cultures are better then others. Some cultures are really shitty. Also Russophobia isn't allowed here? What does that even mean? I'm not allowed to have negative feelings or fears about Russian policies? Not to mention the fact that there are people out there that see sexism, racism or islamophobia in every discussion about immigration or other european policies.
      I also think people should be allowed to say the Armenian Genocide was not really a genocide. Banning discussion about the issue is useless. I personally know quite a few people who deny it and discussing it on here might give them more information to form an educated opinion.
      [–]DrenDran 3 points4 points5 points  (0 children)
      Not to mention the fact that there are people out there that see sexism, racism or islamophobia in every discussion about immigration or other european policies.
      God forbid you even mention eurosceptism on certain subs.
      [–][deleted]  (1 child)
      [deleted]
        [–]British EmpireEast_India_Co[🍰] 21 points22 points23 points  (24 children)
        Even the rule above it is absurd. Is it really wrong to say that gay culture and Saudi culture are incompatible? That a group of gays could not cohabitate with Saudis in Saudi Arabia.
        This is an obvious example of where values of cultures are simply incompatible and where coexistence, is at the least, very unpleasant and at most lethal.
        0/10
        These are the areas that need to be discussed. Especially since such discussions are undoubtedly connected to current events and political discourse.
        [–]No borders, no nations, fuck deportationsGunvorsejl -7 points-6 points-5 points  (23 children)
        You know there are LGBT people in SA too? And there exist tolerant Saudis. Thereis also no monolithic "gay culture". Your point is highly generalizing, which is what the mods want to avoid.
        [–]lobstermidwife 7 points8 points9 points  (1 child)
        Broad generalizations are called that because they're mostly true. Go ahead and be gay in SA, walk around, proclaim it on the streets! See what happens. Then do it in another country. I'm sure the sa response will be much much different than what you're used to.
        [–]No borders, no nations, fuck deportationsGunvorsejl -2 points-1 points0 points  (0 children)
        I've lived lots of homophobic places, I'm not an idiot. But I also have been to gay bars in Russia. It's silly argument, the gay rights movement is really new, until recently no culture was "compatible" with LGBT people. It changed because activists fought back. Not because of some mystical culture.
        [–]British EmpireEast_India_Co[🍰] 4 points5 points6 points  (20 children)
        Culture on the whole is generalising, it's supposed to be.
        There will definitely be gay people in Saudi Arabia. There is no denying that. There will always be a portion of gays in every society.
        Same with tolerant Saudis, however, these people are outliers.
        This doesn't change the fact that their culture is not accepting of gays. They still imprison, lash, stone and behead them.
        So I'm not sure what you're trying to say. Are you suggesting that because they haven't rooted out and murdered every homosexual that their views on gays are equivalent to that of the west?
        [–]Austriaviermalvier 1 point2 points3 points  (0 children)
        This doesn't change the fact that their culture is not accepting of gays. They still imprison, lash, stone and behead them.
        Thats true for sure, but doesnt change the fact that quite a portion of man like to put their dicks in some other guys ass: http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2007/05/the-kingdom-in-the-closet/305774/
        [–]No borders, no nations, fuck deportationsGunvorsejl -4 points-3 points-2 points  (18 children)
        I'm saying it's an incorrect way of viewing it. Homosexuality was only legalised in the 1990s in most of Eastern Europe and it's still not very tolerated. That doesn't mean their are somehow incompatible, it just means there is still a lot of work to be done. Cultures aren't unmovable blocks that somehow fit or not.
        I'm incompatible with racist far right types but that doesn't mean they don't exist here.
        [–]British EmpireEast_India_Co[🍰] 7 points8 points9 points  (17 children)
        I don't get how this view is even useful.
        You can ice the cake as much as you want but it still doesn't change the fact that gay people can't live a proper life in SA or make them feel better about their current circumstance.
        Being a homosexual is still incompatible with the culture they are currently in. That's simply a fact.
        You're fabricating a hypothetical future culture, which doesn't even exist, to compare to western culture, to say "look you can't say one is incompatible with the other".
        All this view does is make yourself feel better about adhering to cultural relativism.
        [–]Not LuxembourgWobzter 2 points3 points4 points  (2 children)
        If I understand correctly, he's merely showing how quickly culture can change, by making a parallel with ex-Soviet countries. Before 1990 it wasn't tolerated, now in some countries it is. Within 25 years such a change occured. Similarly, before the first sexual revolution, they weren't tolerated in the West either.
        I'm guessing he feels like you're assuming the Saudi culture will remain the way it is. You never said so, but in between the lines I read such an assumption and I'm guessing he did too. Now I might be wrong about it, but it's a "mistake" people often make: they believe their culture can change, but others cannot. This "mistake" is often made unconciously, though. Once you start to think about it, you'll realize that just as the Western culture has changed, so might the Saudi.
        [–]British EmpireEast_India_Co[🍰] 4 points5 points6 points  (1 child)
        I'm willing to accept that it will change but this isn't really the issue.
        The issue is that this important aspect of discourse is now excluded from conversation. Especially when it comes to immigration policy and who we decide to let into our countries.
        For instance I can accept that letting in small amounts of people from highly incompatible cultures may be acceptable. Given that small populations integrate faster (and they would need more time to integrate). Let too many in too quickly and they set up insular communities, like we see in Europe now, which breed all the negative aspects of the culture they import. Obviously if their countries culture changes and becomes more compatible I'd be more willing to accept more.
        So I believe it's important in regards to immigration policies to consider the cultural compatibility of immigrants - especially when deciding how many and from where.
        Removing this aspect from the discussion is unacceptable.
        [–]Not LuxembourgWobzter 1 point2 points3 points  (0 children)
        Of course. I never meant to say that you're wrong with what you said. I just noticed how the two of you were talking about different things, without really commenting on each other, but rather reiterating what you said.
        [–]No borders, no nations, fuck deportationsGunvorsejl -2 points-1 points0 points  (13 children)
        I think we're talking past each other. I freaking hate everything about the Saudi government, their treatment of minorities and women and their financing of terrorism, I just don't think it's a specific "cultural" thing. They defend their beef with the Swedish foreign minister with their "culture" same with their views on LGBT folk, Russia and others do the same.
        But homophobia, misogyny, racism etc don't have anything to do with some nebulous culture, it's just plain bigotry that needs to be confronted and denounced. The only reason it's slightly better here in Europe is because we decided to take steps like the mods are right now, because we shouldn't give hatred a platform.
        [–]British EmpireEast_India_Co[🍰] 2 points3 points4 points  (12 children)
        Ok, I'll make it easier for you.
        Take honour killing (this is for sure part of Pakistani tribal culture).
        Would I be wrong to say that this part of their culture is incompatible with the west?
        Should I be prevented from discussing this issue because I hold the view that it is incompatible?
        [–]No borders, no nations, fuck deportationsGunvorsejl -2 points-1 points0 points  (11 children)
        Sure, murder is always wrong. It's not limited to Pakistan though, we just call it domestic violence or crime of passion here. Again, the problem here is patriarchy and misogyny, because women are denied their choices.
        [–]British EmpireEast_India_Co[🍰] 0 points1 point2 points  (10 children)
        So you agree that this is an inferior aspect of their culture which is incompatible with the west?
        [–]Fred_Flintstone 16 points17 points18 points  (0 children)
        Heaven is where the police are British, the chefs are French, the mechanics German, the lovers Italian and it's all organised by the Swiss.
        Hell is where the chefs are British, the mechanics French, the lover's Swiss, the police German and it's all organised by the Italians.
        I've committed 10 unforgiveable thought-crimes; this will be my last post, farewell!
        [–]648262 11 points12 points13 points  (0 children)
        Sorry, but these rules blow.
        Yep.
        It is not ok to suggest that some races or cultures are inherently better than others.
        Furthermore this is against itself.
        [–]thatsameatshot 10 points11 points12 points  (4 children)
        I have never understood why SJWs can say things like "you can't judge one culture by another's standards" or "no cultures are objectively incompatible" while maintaining that some things are fundamentally wrong, sexism, racism, European existence or whatever it may be.
        Don't they realize that the notion of cultural superority, of right and wrong, lead to the enlighenment, the rejection of slavery and discrimination, and today's socjus. "slavery is wrong" is a statement of moral superority over cultures in which slavery is practiced.
        [–]Empire of PolandSithrak [score hidden]  (0 children)
        I think no cultures are objectively incompatible - elements of some cultures are incompatible. A culture is a chaotic, complex and ever-changing network of customs and behaviours, you can't possibly treat it in such a simple manner.
        Sexism and racism are not fundamentally wrong, they are just horribly stupid and very harmful :)
        [–]The Netherlandspiwikiwi 1 point2 points3 points  (2 children)
        I'm pretty much a sjw and I agree. Cultural relativism is stupid.
        [–]Empire of PolandSithrak [score hidden]  (0 children)
        No, it isn't. Cultural relativism is about understanding other cultures within their own context. But understanding something does not necessitate liking or allowing it. For example, I can understand the motives of a murderer but still reject their actions.
        It is not about forcing other cultures on us, it is about not rejecting things only on the basis that they seem alien to us. Voluntary hijabs and prayers in the street are fine, FGM is not.
        [–]Finlandnikomo 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
        If you're willing to hold a reasonable view like that, you're just a reasonable person that is capable of using logic, not a SJW.
        [–]United States of Americamachinedog 5 points6 points7 points  (2 children)
        I think you can criticize a culture's practices, but you can't say that a culture as a whole is inferior.
        Like, you can say circumcision is bad. But you can't say Jews are bad.
        [–]Not LuxembourgWobzter 1 point2 points3 points  (0 children)
        This. Give this (wo)man more upvotes.
        [–]Ayy_1mao -5 points-4 points-3 points  (0 children)
        Why couldn't you directly compare two cultures?
        Eskimo culture is great and all, but they have yet to land on the moon.
        [–]CuntM8 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
        This rule caught my eye too. Man, this shit is hilarious.
        [–]United KingdomSlyRatchet[S] comment score below threshold-7 points-6 points-5 points  (1 child)
        hating because of culture is certainly the lesser of those two (out of race and culture). And we would typically only take action if two further requirements were filled that A) that there was some degree of advocation for violence based on culture B) if this was a consistent theme in the users posting history (assuming that they have a posting history).
        [–]markzman 22 points23 points24 points  (0 children)
        A) that there was some degree of advocation for violence based on culture B) if this was a consistent theme in the users posting history (assuming that they have a posting history).
        So why are these things not included in the OP? You presented us some shiny new rules only to tell us 4 replies later that there is additional stuff that could warrant a ban. If this is supposed to be true then why didn't you include the call for violence instead of the current phrasing? This is a pretty major distinction in my opinion compared to the currrent rules. Sorry, but this set of rules, as it is, endorses an extreme interpretation of cultural relativism. You are effectively granting mod-enforced immunity to attributes of people which they have influence over, therby denying them their agency, treating them like cattle or children. It's like saying that you can't say some political ideologies or ideas are inferior to others. This is dehumanizing and infantilizing.
        edit:note that I fully support mod action against abusive language directed at people with attributes that they can't influence like race and gender
        [–]Earthslugmilkshake 46 points47 points48 points  (6 children)
        Are you trying to push cultural relativism here? Enjoy the downvotes.
        [–]mega_wallace 27 points28 points29 points  (5 children)
        It is particularly funny in light of that gay rights map that was posted earlier today. Who are we to judge if other cultures don't value equality, but rather prefer to discriminate against gays. It is their culture after all, and an anti-gay culture is just as valid as a culture that tolerates different sexualities.
        [–]United States of Americamachinedog 1 point2 points3 points  (0 children)
        Its not like Europe is the perfect end all to human civilization and that no laws need to change ever, but we are capable of having constructive criticism about say, Greece without saying they should sink into the Ocean. I think its fair to say we can discuss Saudi Arabia in the same way. Fucked up as they are, writing a whole country off is far less productive than criticizing their human rights record.
        [–]United States of Americamachinedog -3 points-2 points-1 points  (3 children)
        While their culture is valid that doesn't mean we can't think their practices are bad.
        [–]European Unionmrubios 8 points9 points10 points  (2 children)
        Actually, we can think whatever the fuck we want.
        I know downplaying hugely important western values like freedom of speech is trendy amongst irrational people, but literal thoughtcrime is still way too edgy for unironic use (for now anyway).
        [–]United States of Americamachinedog 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
        You're right, we should also invite people to come in and say that the gays and jews cause all of our problems. They're just exercising their free speech.
        There is a difference between constructive debate and criticism and hate drivel. I don't think the latter has a place in this forum. There are other forums that are available for race and culture hate.
        [–]No borders, no nations, fuck deportationsGunvorsejl -6 points-5 points-4 points  (0 children)
        You're on an internet forum. No one is abusing you're freedom of speech. Just don't say racist or homophobic things. It's not much to ask.
        [–]European Unionmrubios 18 points19 points20 points  (0 children)
        Half of those rules are ridiculous.
        [–]FinlandTraubert 9 points10 points11 points  (2 children)
        These rules represent the mods putting themselves above the community. I would understand it if this were /r/shiteuropesays, but a broad geographic community like this should be more open.
        [–]apcpw 0 points1 point2 points  (1 child)
        This is not a geographic community, it is a strict political correct community that, as many religion, don't admit free speech. In this subreddit these rules tell you that free speech that is not conforming mod's ideas is banned, plain and simply. I suggest the community to change mods and find someone that respect free speech or to the mods to change the name in europe-policalcorrect. I don't know why americans are so proud of free speech, but in pratice, as i see in this subreddit, this is less free speech that in some so called backward countries. This sub will be nice photos of europe, the usa helping people and sub about how bad are people mods don't like. So... if i want to read the pravda i read the pravda, not a pale imitation. Why don't ban all the people and simply have mods that post all the content? Mods, pay some people to write what you want and close this sub, it is far more honest.
        [–]PolandGrzechooo -1 points0 points1 point  (0 children)
        or go to other subs
        [–]Czechistan!falconberger 13 points14 points15 points  (26 children)
        Thank you for the new fabulous, splendid and marvelous rules. Few questions:
        It is not ok to make pejorative statements about large cultural, national or ethnic groups
        So saying that Americans are fat is not allowed I guess?
        It is not ok to suggest that some races or cultures are inherently better than others.
        Don't know what's "inherently better" but is it ok to suggest that races or cultures are better in specific aspects?
        Unreliable domains including but not limited to, Blogspot, Tumblr, Facebook and WordPress will be removed.
        What do you mean by "unreliable"?
        [–]Greecegschizas[M] 1 point2 points3 points  (1 child)
        So saying that Americans are fat is not allowed I guess?
        Not all Americans are fat. Not all Americans are fatter than all Europeans.
        is it ok to suggest that races or cultures are better in specific aspects?
        Not sure where you're going with this. The Dutch are taller for example, but does that make them better?
        What do you mean by "unreliable"?
        Anybody can open a blogspot/tumblr/facebook/wordpress.com site or page, there is no idendity verification (as, for example, in Twitter)
        [–]/r/theNetherlandsTonyQuark [score hidden]  (0 children)
        The Dutch are taller for example, but does that make them better?
        Obviously.
        [–]United KingdomSlyRatchet[S] -1 points0 points1 point  (23 children)
        1)
        Rule 1.1. is about being hateful. If you're calling Americans fat or Germans unfunny, I'd hardly call that hate.
        2)
        Essentially, yes. If you saying Germans, as a society, are more industrious, which is good, then that's fine. If you start saying that Germans are just 'better' generally (especially if this cultural superiority implies that other peoples are inferior) then that could cause problems.
        3)
        If you post some news, but the source is not reliable, then we will remove it as such. There's only a very limited number of domains which we remove in this way though. It's virtually only the ones mentioned. For instance, I don't think it would be appropriate for a Tubmlr source to be posted here in place of a real news website.
        [–]ScotlandARNIreland 8 points9 points10 points  (16 children)
        Rule 1.1. is about being hateful. If you're calling Americans fat or Germans unfunny, I'd hardly call that hate.
        Both are still negative stereotypes though. So would they not fall foul of the new rule?
        It is not ok to make pejorative statements about large cultural, national or ethnic groups
        [–]United KingdomSlyRatchet[S] 3 points4 points5 points  (14 children)
        We mods are humans too. We're not gonna ban people for making a joke. You can expect all of the rules here to be applied as a human being would apply them, not a robot.
        [–]ScotlandARNIreland 13 points14 points15 points  (13 children)
        Hmmm.
        Also, this;
        It is not ok to suggest that members of different cultures or races are incapable of cohabiting.
        I'm a 'Catholic' from West Belfast. I don't think that nationalists and loyalists will ever really get along and cohabit peacefully here. The hatred is, sadly, too ingrained. I hope I'm proved wrong in that assertion. Is that ban worthy?
        [–]United KingdomSlyRatchet[S] 1 point2 points3 points  (12 children)
        There is precisely one example where we will ban based on the cohabition example. Many modern right wing extremist groups, or neo-fascists, claim that immigration will necessarily lead to a war between cultures. It's only people who go down that particular line of reason that this rule gets applied to. It's very similar to the Holocaust denial example. The only sorts of people who deny the Holocaust are people who have an extremely hateful and violent agenda. There is no place for racial hatred here, which is why we don't allow those sorts of comments.
        You're thing about Belfast is fine (if even if I disagree personally with you).
        [–]ScotlandARNIreland 10 points11 points12 points  (0 children)
        Appreciate you taking the time to clear that up. Thanks.
        [–]DenmarkMrStrange15 1 point2 points3 points  (1 child)
        About Holocaust denial, couldn't it be possible that a denier was just poorly educated? If so, isn't it then our duty to inform them of that instead of banning them?
        [–]United KingdomSlyRatchet[S] [score hidden]  (0 children)
        If so, they can apply for an appeal under the grounds that they had no malicious intent. Then one of us will explain precisely why it's banned
        [–][deleted]  (8 children)
        [deleted]
          [–]Czechistan!falconberger 11 points12 points13 points  (2 children)
          saying that Germans are just 'better' generally
          It would actually make little sense, because "better" can mean very different things.
          I think Germans have higher average IQ than Indians. edginess intensifies
          [–]TurkeyA_Saudi_prince 4 points5 points6 points  (1 child)
          I think Germans have higher average IQ than Indians.
          I think Ashkenazi Jews have higher average IQ than Australian Aborigines. Wow, I'm so edgy.
          [–]Czechistan!falconberger 2 points3 points4 points  (0 children)
          True.
          [–]EnglandEd__ 2 points3 points4 points  (0 children)
          Swap our culture for ethnicity and that rule will be way clearer.
          [–]United KingdomLocutusOfBorges -1 points0 points1 point  (0 children)
          Bravo for doing this.
          We've had no end of carping on /r/BritishPolitics about our racism/bigotry ban-on-sight policy. So heartening to see a sub as successful as /r/Europe manage to stay well run.
          [–]FranceLart_est_aileurs 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
          If you post some news, but the source is not reliable, then we will remove it as such. There's only a very limited number of domains which we remove in this way though. It's virtually only the ones mentioned. For instance, I don't think it would be appropriate for a Tubmlr source to be posted here in place of a real news website.
          What about conspiracy theory and propaganda websites ?
          [–]GogoGGK 14 points15 points16 points  (0 children)
          It is not ok to suggest that members of different cultures or races are incapable of cohabiting.
          It is not ok to suggest that some races or cultures are inherently better than others.
          Culture means a lot of things...
          [–]Indifference is the best kind of tolerance (/s)Parabellum8g 4 points5 points6 points  (0 children)
          To start with something positive: in general I like the new rules, but as a lot of people I have some trouble with the next two rules:
          It is not ok to suggest that members of different cultures or races are incapable of cohabiting.
          And:
          It is not ok to suggest that some races or cultures are inherently better than others.
          Although both examples of Rule 1.1 are inspired by obvious racist and discriminatory comments, I cannot help but thinking that 'our' values - vague as they might be - can be considered rather superior to some other cultural values for example. Take our opposition to the death penalty and our much further reaching freedom of speech, which is in my 'ethnocentric' eyes preferable to a lot of other cultural ideas out there. I dare to name those values even universal.
          People should not suggest that cohabitation of different cultures is impossible by default, but I reserve the right to talk about the huge divide in Dutch society - including the massive cultural differences between Dutch culture and for example Moroccan culture. It is hard to see that both are reconciliable in some way or another as of 2015.
          [–]bricardo 7 points8 points9 points  (0 children)
          It is not ok to suggest that members of different cultures or races are incapable of cohabiting
          How about saying that certain cultures don't mix well at all because their principles are at odds with each other?
          [–][deleted]  (1 child)
          [deleted]
            [–]The NetherlandsTheothor 6 points7 points8 points  (2 children)
            Ah finally. Come on Belgians! Call us Dutch cheap one more time! I dare you!
            [–]BelgiumQsaws 4 points5 points6 points  (1 child)
            Dutch cheap
            [–]La France — cocorico !dClauzel 16 points17 points18 points  (9 children)
            It is not ok to suggest that some races or cultures are inherently better than others.
            Mais on peut quand même dire que la cuisine anglaise c’est vraiment pas bon et que la française est meilleure, hein ?
            But we can at least say that English cooking is really awful and that the French one is better, right?
            [–]GogoGGK 14 points15 points16 points  (0 children)
            Banter is now illegal.
            [–]Portugalschumaga 1 point2 points3 points  (5 children)
            Os franceses são arrogantes e podem-me chupar a baguete.
            I've got an idea for a new rule: ban all the french who feel the need to write in a language they know most people won't understand.
            [–]Rano_Its 1 point2 points3 points  (2 children)
            What a stupid comment.
            Why are you even bothered by his post?
            [–]EnglandEd__ 1 point2 points3 points  (0 children)
            He's mocking the rules
            [–]Portugalschumaga 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
            I'm not, it's a joke.
            [–]New Zealandoreography 1 point2 points3 points  (0 children)
            Are you saying that by virtue of their language, British culture is superior to French culture?
            preparar para um banimento, meu amigo
            [–]Who_sees_you 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
            lel
            [–]United KingdomSlyRatchet[S] 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
            banned ;)
            Tu as eté interdu ;)
            (Clairement c'est d'accord.Il ya un comment ici. Il l'a expliqué)
            [–]FranceWiluz 1 point2 points3 points  (0 children)
            So it means that before the new set of rules blatant racism was ok? This is dumb, you'd rather give /r/european more suscribers than confronting their ideas?
            [–]delayclose 2 points3 points4 points  (1 child)
            Regarding 1.1, I think it would be useful to add a clarification on those not-bigoted-at-all threads, where everyone shares their personal anecdote about some Roma individuals they've met.
            Single comments in those threads seem like they wouldn't actually go against the examples you've stated here, but I'm assuming those threads as a whole are something this rule is meant to put a stop to.
            [–]No borders, no nations, fuck deportationsGunvorsejl 3 points4 points5 points  (0 children)
            Report the threads. Hate propaganda isn't the purpose of this sub. We've had a handful of decent threads on Roma issues (endless persecution, genocide, poverty, racism) but 90% are just ignorance.
            [–]remzem 8 points9 points10 points  (0 children)
            Your rules are too vague and open to interpretation. Is ISIS a culture? If so it's a culture whose entire belief set revolves around it's inability to cohabitate.
            These rules are pretty much bad and you should feel bad. (come at me bro, I am trained in gorilla warfare)
            [–]fughp 21 points22 points23 points  (1 child)
            So holding a position other than cultural relativism is now considered a bannable offense?
            Might as well finally throw that SRS tag in the open in there.
            [–]TurkeyA_Saudi_prince 25 points26 points27 points  (9 children)
            It is not ok to suggest that members of different cultures or races are incapable of cohabiting.
            Not trying to be mean, but I seriously doubt Turks and Greeks can cohabitate. We're just too different. But by all means mods, ban me for stating the obvious.
            It is not ok to suggest that some races or cultures are inherently better than others.
            So it's wrong to state that the culture in the Islamic State (ISIS) in inferior to Finnish culture? Because that's exactly what I am saying. If so, ban me for that as well.
            [–]GogoGGK 12 points13 points14 points  (0 children)
            I agree, those two rules bother me.
            [–]Baerke 7 points8 points9 points  (1 child)
            Jews and Nazis are completely capable of cohabitating. Just like Serbs and Croatians.
            [–]Greecegschizas 12 points13 points14 points  (3 children)
            I seriously doubt Turks and Greeks can cohabitate.
            We did for a very long time.
            We're just too different.
            Not really. I've felt very much at home in Istanbul. You can't live together for 400 years and not have some cultural elements exchange. We drink the same coffee, we eat the same döner (well, our has pork in it, but the principle is the same), I don't think we're all that different.
            the culture in the Islamic State [...]
            I'm not really sure the "Islamic State" qualifies as a culture.
            [–]Leinster, IrelandKarmaDK [score hidden]  (0 children)
            Saudi culture is very similar to "Islamic State culture" so there's an easy substitute for that argument.
            [–]GermanyMaxi_W -1 points0 points1 point  (0 children)
            Good to see medieval attitudes are still alive and well even in Europe.
            [–]BG Roses & Yoghurtgsefcgs 5 points6 points7 points  (2 children)
            This may or may not come across as nitpicky and possibly as mockery, but I would like to report someone for breaking p.6 of the reddiquette. Here we go:
            nice new shiny
            pre-amble
            the sub has groan
            hunred
            We thnk
            more if
            we here is
            assertion(s) but
            moderator stating
            and the the submission
            domains including but
            2.5 mods
            circumstances
            2.6 content
            content which [...] relevant here shall
            Argentina)
            users who [...] articles also
            Please use
            criticism instead
            Please report
            button visible
            number which
            forum, to maintain
            environment, and
            debate we
            once you
            you are may
            jerk) it
            "nuked" which
            reddiquette you
            it here
            /u/SlyRatchet, I hereby invite you on a spa weekend to one of our best spa resorts/towns - Hisarya. You can bring /u/Bezbojnicul with you.
            This message was definitely NOT brought to you by the International Grammar-, Capitalization-, Punctuation- and/or Spellingnazi Council, nor by the Ministry of Tourism of Bulgaria.
            [–]United KingdomSlyRatchet[S] 1 point2 points3 points  (1 child)
            In my defence... my spell check is broken... That's a shit defence, I know, but... I'm sorry.
            I will ban myself.
            [–]Rano_Its 2 points3 points4 points  (0 children)
            Please, tell me that "without further à deux" is a play on words :\
            [–]PortugalDanielShaww 5 points6 points7 points  (0 children)
            I think you should light up on the bullet points in Bigotry, Hate Speech and Xenophobia. If I try I can be all of that without technically breaking the rules, or I can say something without malice that could possible fall under those categories. The users can see through most of what is written, most racism, hatred and xenophobia gets handled quickly, even without moderator intervention.
            This is like the 10 commandements, too long, too basic. We just need one: don't be a dick. If you truly act on people that are being dicks or saying something a dick would say, then surely the community will agree with you without having to go into all the trouble that X broke Y rule.
            [–]mandiblebutt 7 points8 points9 points  (3 children)
            Who are the specific racial or ethnic groups that cannot be mentioned in a negative way? I assume you mean Roma, Middle easterners and Africans. Are there other groups that cannot be made fun of? And which ones can be mocked besides Americans and germans?
            [–]EnglandEd__ 3 points4 points5 points  (1 child)
            Greeks not paying debts and the polish space program.
            [–]ILUSIAN 1 point2 points3 points  (0 children)
            Pay denbts
            [–]Ayy_1mao 9 points10 points11 points  (0 children)
            Freedom of speech is overrated, great job.
            [–]UKWireless-Wizard 7 points8 points9 points  (7 children)
            I believe that macho culture as exemplified by Russia among certain other nations is inherently worse than the more egalitarian culture exemplified by most Western nations.
            Is this bannable? If so, why should I be banned for thinking something clearly unhealthy is bad? If not, please reword rule 1.1
            [–]EnglandSpecsaversGaza 1 point2 points3 points  (3 children)
            Could you be a darling and define what might qualify a source declaration for an image such as a cartoon please?
            If I post a link directly to the image, with the source publication in the URL, does this count?
            [–]EnglandTheSkyNet [score hidden]  (2 children)
            I know it's bad but cartoons are sort of best judgement, but as a guide it needs to fit into the rules and be high quality and topical.
            [–]EnglandSpecsaversGaza [score hidden]  (1 child)
            Fair enough, but would just a image link from say The Times be considered as a definition of source or do cartoons not require a source?
            [–]EnglandTheSkyNet [score hidden]  (0 children)
            its always best to source it.
            [–][deleted]  (14 children)
            [deleted]
              [–]ethreax 6 points7 points8 points  (11 children)
              Serious question: why do we allow posts about Turkey here?
              EDIT: also many of the people living in the European,part of Turkey are ethnically bulgarians and greek
              [–]The NetherlandsTheothor 7 points8 points9 points  (6 children)
              Because it's in Europe. Or at least part of it is.
              [–]PortugalDanielShaww 6 points7 points8 points  (2 children)
              A very tiny part...
              [–]AustraliaSavannaJeff 8 points9 points10 points  (0 children)
              I dunno, 20% of the population (if you count the whole of Istanbul) is quite a lot. By that reasoning, why do we allow Cyprus news? They're technically not even in Europe.
              [–]TurkeyA_Saudi_prince 4 points5 points6 points  (3 children)
              People here are delusional enough to think I'm a European.
              [–]fuaffs-why 5 points6 points7 points  (2 children)
              pfff... everyone knows you are asians. :D
              [–]perpetual_C000009A 2 points3 points4 points  (1 child)
              Yeah, but they're only minor Asians.
              [–]LittleHelperRobot 2 points3 points4 points  (0 children)
              Non-mobile: minor Asians
              That's why I'm here, I don't judge you. PM /u/xl0 if I'm causing any trouble. WUT?
              [–]Bulgariasarmatae 5 points6 points7 points  (2 children)
              I don't see how these rules will make this sub-reddit less of a circlejerk.
              [–]Fryslân (Living in Overijssel)TheByzantineDragon 2 points3 points4 points  (1 child)
              Take a look at /r/european to see what happens when a subreddit vows to ditch all rules.
              [–]No borders, no nations, fuck deportationsGunvorsejl -1 points0 points1 point  (0 children)
              Hint: it's Nazi propaganda. They are also brigading.
              [–]DrenDran 1 point2 points3 points  (1 child)
              Additionally, Holocaust Denial (of either the 1915 Armenian Genocide or the 1941-5 Holocaust of the Jews, homosexuals, the disabled, Jehovah's Witnesses, etc.) is completely unacceptable.
              Was this such a serious epidemic that it needed to be explicitly added?
              [–]EnglandTheSkyNet [score hidden]  (0 children)
              oddly yes, we have done a good job at removing them.
              [–]FranceLart_est_aileurs 2 points3 points4 points  (0 children)
              It is not ok to suggest that members of different cultures or races are incapable of cohabiting.
              So, on the discussion on the Israeli conflict, we will have to be extra cautious i guess.
              [–][deleted]  (3 children)
              [deleted]
                [–]ScotlandMy_Thoughts 3 points4 points5 points  (1 child)
                When did Tumblr SJWs start running /europe?
                [–]No borders, no nations, fuck deportationsGunvorsejl [score hidden]  (0 children)
                Since now, we took over yesterday. Boo!
                [–]Fryslân (Living in Overijssel)TheByzantineDragon 1 point2 points3 points  (11 children)
                Wtf is happening in this thread?
                Mods, no mercy.
                [–]ronaldinjo 5 points6 points7 points  (10 children)
                Free speech
                [–]Fryslân (Living in Overijssel)TheByzantineDragon 4 points5 points6 points  (9 children)
                No, brigading.
                [–]ronaldinjo 0 points1 point2 points  (8 children)
                I just think the mods are becoming paranoid and therefore more authoritarian.
                [–]Fryslân (Living in Overijssel)TheByzantineDragon 6 points7 points8 points  (7 children)
                No, the subreddit has boomed, with tons of new people coming in. Brigading from places like /r/european has also become more common the past few months.
                They are right to be paranoid, the thread here is an example of what's actually coming here.
                [–]Basque Countrypabsensi 2 points3 points4 points  (0 children)
                But what would \r\Europe be without its blatant racism and irrational hatred for minorities? Thanks mods, apparently I'm the only one who doesn't want this place infected with neckbeardian right-wingers.
                [–]SwedenDraktand 2 points3 points4 points  (1 child)
                I trust you guys, but 2.5 could be used wrong by a shitty mod in the future. Do you have a system in place for that kind of thing?
                [–]TIL there's internet in BosniaValens 0 points1 point2 points  (4 children)
                Mod post getting downvoted, people I have tagged as racists/Islamopohobes/xenophobes are on top, hmmm what could that possibly mean? Maybe our enlightened and oh so open-minded bros in /r/European know, let's see... Churchill didn't die for this shit! LOL.
                [–]No borders, no nations, fuck deportationsGunvorsejl [score hidden]  (2 children)
                Hah, funny how they embrace Churchill, shouldn't they dislike him for beating the Nazis? I guess I'm expecting too much of them.
                [–]TIL there's internet in BosniaValens [score hidden]  (1 child)
                I guess I'm expecting too much of them
                Absolutely. You're trying to find some logic in their beliefs, come on man what's wrong with you? :D
                They might be illogical but they're damn good at vote brigading. This announcement has 0 points, the post linking here in their sub is at 100 right now.
                [–]No borders, no nations, fuck deportationsGunvorsejl [score hidden]  (0 children)
                Well it's not like anyone else will listen to their shit, so they have to come in and make like a bull in a china shop. Though it's not all /r/european, a lot of it is homegrown. They've killed any chance at actual discussion or clarification of the rules though.
                Maybe in a few days the mods will make a new post explaining to those users who are confused by the rules.
                [–]DenmarkIndsaetNavnHer 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
                Can I ask if attacks on sweden and swedes, comparison to lesser animals and calling them second class humans are still allowed?
                [–]DukenPOL [score hidden]  (0 children)
                "Additionally, Holocaust Denial (of either the 1915 Armenian Genocide or the 1941-5 Holocaust of the Jews, homosexuals, the disabled, Jehovah's Witnesses, etc.) is completely unacceptable."
                Why didn't you mention Poles? I think more Poles died than Jehovas Witnesses or homos lol
                BTW. bullshit rules
                [–]SwedenMokitTheOmniscient -1 points0 points1 point  (7 children)
                We haven't really had that much of a problem with things like this yet, but it's really great that you mods have been thinking ahead.
                It doesn't take much for a subreddit to devolve into youtube-comments when it reaches critical mass, but clear concise rules like these will definitely help prevent that before it becomes a problem.
                [–]United KingdomLocutusOfBorges 4 points5 points6 points  (0 children)
                You clearly don't remember how bad things got a year and a half ago before the mod team really started tightening up their act.
                They've done a tremendous job. That the place has gone from being halfway flooded with racism flame wars in 2012, to a genuinely enjoyable Subreddit with hundreds of thousands of subscribers today paints them all in an extremely good light.
                [–]Swedenhitchsslap 3 points4 points5 points  (0 children)
                Threads about Sweden often attract racists and propagandists, and not just from r/sweden, but r/european and r/whiterights. But the mods really do a good job.
                edit:
                Ha! /r/european has linked here:
                [–]Greecegschizas[M] -1 points0 points1 point  (1 child)
                We haven't really had that much of a problem with things like this yet
                Sadly, it's just a sign we're doing a good job...
                [–]No borders, no nations, fuck deportationsGunvorsejl 6 points7 points8 points  (0 children)
                Well you guys try but this thread shows how far we have to go. Asking people not be Nazis apparently makes /r/europe a pit of oppression or something. According to people who's main experience with oppression is being banned on an internet forum.
                [–]DA IMPERIALISTZPRESIDENT_KLAUS -4 points-3 points-2 points  (3 children)
                Good on you mods. Of course some peeps are going to have a hard time now trying to hold their hate in for certain people but fuck em
                [–]CuteBunny123123 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
                For the haters there's /r/european :)
                [–]Not SloveniaLolkac -5 points-4 points-3 points  (1 child)
                TL;DR: don't be a cunt
                [–][deleted]  (2 children)
                [deleted]
                  [–]United KingdomSlyRatchet[S] 4 points5 points6 points  (1 child)
                  Info-graphics, images, selfs posts and other similar content which makes (an) assertion(s) but lacks (a) source(s) will be removed. The original submitter [OP] should post the source (if it is not cited in the submission itself) as soon as possible. If the OP receives a message from a moderator stating that their post has been delisted [removed] due to lack of source, they may still provide the source and the the submission will be relisted [unremoved]. But moderators frequently require hours to respond to such messages.
                  What exactly constitutes a source? For instance, would a note like "Source: Economist Intelligence Unit" in a corner of an image suffice? How lenient or strict do you intend to be on content removals? I honestly wouldn't expect it to be that difficult for you guys to find the source of most images/infographics posted here; might it be possible to relatively loosely enforce this rule or loosen its conditions to be slightly more forgiving? It really only makes sense when it can't be verified, or the source can't be easily found.
                  If there is a watermark in the corner to a credible organisation, like an NGO, think tank, company, news organistions or something, then usually that is enough, especially in the case of stuff water marked from the Economist. If there's no water mark then you just have to link to some internet source where you found it. For instance, if you got it from Wikipedia, the information should be cited at the bottom of the wikipedia page and ou can link to that. If it's an image, and the OP claims anything about the image in the title then you have to link to a news source which includes the image and the information which is stated in the headline.
                  And yes, the mods could just search the entire interent for a source on behalf of every OP. Technically, we could do that. But we frankly have more important things to be doing then sourcing everybody else's content for them. Every minute we spend looking for sources is a minute where we could be tracking down hate speech or stopping brigading. It would be much simpler, quicker and a more economic use of everybody's time if the OP posted a credible source a long with whatever image content they post.
                  Additionally, Holocaust Denial (of either the 1915 Armenian Genocide or the 1941-5 Holocaust of the Jews, homosexuals, the disabled, Jehovah's Witnesses, etc.) is completely unacceptable.
                  I think you need to learn what the Holocaust was... I think you're just searching for the term "genocide" here. Not to be a pest or seem homophobic/whatever, but as far as I know, there hasn't been anything that could be described as a genocide of homosexuals, the disabled, or Jehovah's Witnesses in recent history. plsnoban
                  The Holocaust of Jews, homosexuals, the disabled and Jehovah's Witnesses, etc was all the same genocide. It's only those two genocides that we ban for.
                  It is not ok to make pejorative statements about large cultural, national or ethnic groups especially when these groups are not entered into by choice (e.g. race, gender,sexuality).
                  What does "entered into by choice" mean in this context?
                  You can hate somebody for making stupid decisions. You can't hate them for 'what' they are (e.g. their sexuality or race). You're born with a sexuality and a race. You had no choice in the matter. If you choose to join Manchester Football Club, then you deserve every ounce of criticism you get.
                  (I think you can probably generalize that entire section of bannable offenses to not being a dick.)
                  Essentially, yes. Only it's "don't be massive dick". But we wanted to specify exactly what being a massive dick means and we decided that this was a pretty conclusive list. If you do something not mentione here, then I can't see any legitimate reason why the mods should take action.
                  [–]No borders, no nations, fuck deportationsGunvorsejl [score hidden]  (0 children)
                  Good stuff, don't change it just because of a bunch of whiny racists. This sub will be a lot better, positive and intelligent if they leave.
                  [–]kankouillotte 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
                  Time to sort the comments by controversial ...
                  [–]shitification [score hidden]  (0 children)
                  Could these policys apply to all people not just minorites?
                  I think this is more an issue of people reporting things that personaly upset them.
                  Mods not looking a entire situations and just lazy banning people seems to be a big issue.
                  The mods here are imcapable of policing aleged ''racism'' as they have been here in the past and in thier other subs.
                  Is it ok to criticise religion? (It's entered into by choice)
                  Is it ok to say that differnet cultures are different and clash with each other on some issues?
                  It is not ok to suggest that members of different cultures or races are incapable of cohabiting.
                  So can we start invading tribes. The UN says it is not ok.
                  Some of the rules are being voilated in this comment thread seems to be policed less then regular posts. Just pointing that out.
                  If what you incorectly calssify as a ''racist'' group gets elected all across most of the EU like in the last election is it not ok to talk about even though the majority want it?
                  Turning this sub into your prefered circlejerk is a great way to lose people.
                  [–]Traime -7 points-6 points-5 points  (30 children)
                  /r/RealEurope created, submissions welcomed. Content governed by votes, not moderation. Embrace the spirit of freedom of expression as firmly rooted in European tradition. Don't let your thoughts and feelings be muzzled at the whim of a self-selected few.
                  I have little interest in "power" over this sub, if anybody has proposals for some sort of democratic process/handover, let's hear it.
                  [–]Fryslân (Living in Overijssel)TheByzantineDragon 6 points7 points8 points  (29 children)
                  A.K.A /r/european 2.0?
                  [–]Traime comment score below threshold-6 points-5 points-4 points  (28 children)
                  No. More like "Reddit.com". It's a concept. You should look it up. Just because somebody gets a name first, that does not make them the Holy See. I don't expect this to take off, but I gladly reserve the space just in case anybody wants to liberate themselves from power abuse.
                  [–]Fryslân (Living in Overijssel)TheByzantineDragon -1 points0 points1 point  (27 children)
                  but I gladly reserve the space just in case anybody wants to liberate themselves from power abuse.
                  That's what I am saying. What you're proposing is exactly how /r/european got made.
                  "We will make our own subreddit without oppressing mods and with free speech!"
                  A couple weeks later
                  Anti-foreigner circlejerk and stormfront subreddit. Yep.
                  [–]GermanyJustSmall 0 points1 point2 points  (2 children)
                  Wasn't that subreddit started by someone who was banned in /r/europe for some/all sorts of hatred to begin with?
                  [–]No borders, no nations, fuck deportationsGunvorsejl 3 points4 points5 points  (0 children)
                  Specifically, he (Rambo) called for the navy to shoot at refugee ships. Charming fellow. The top post all time in that sub is straight up Nazi propaganda.
                  [–]Fryslân (Living in Overijssel)TheByzantineDragon 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
                  Yeah, because the mods here were 'repressing' anti-immigration comments, so he mad a subreddit 'without' any moderation over the comments, except when you insult the subreddit itself. The result is that more and more extremist views swallowed the whole thing.
                  [–]Traime -4 points-3 points-2 points  (23 children)
                  Like I said, Reddit.com is a concept. You should look it up. Your feverish delusions about how every subreddit that doesn't conform to your imagined life's rules automatically turns racist require medication, not consideration.
                  So, you're not saying much at all, I'm afraid.
                  [–]Fryslân (Living in Overijssel)TheByzantineDragon 0 points1 point2 points  (22 children)
                  Yep, with a founder like that the subreddit will definitely be a circlejerk :D.
                  [–]Traime -3 points-2 points-1 points  (21 children)
                  No it won't. You're projecting. :D
                  [–]Fryslân (Living in Overijssel)TheByzantineDragon 0 points1 point2 points  (20 children)
                  If it takes off, remind me in a few months. It will be a circlejerk.
                  If you moderate it, you lose.
                  [–]Traime -2 points-1 points0 points  (1 child)
                  Better than a fawning, spineless, politically correct parrot handing out smears and unfounded accusations like it was Christmas. I don't care if it takes off or not, and I have nothing to prove, least of all to you.
                  [–]Fryslân (Living in Overijssel)TheByzantineDragon -1 points0 points1 point  (0 children)
                  If you think that was better, fine with me. Don't get annoyed when you get banned here, like most white supremacists.
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