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[Discussion] Is Herrera good enough? (self.reddevils)

azt95Schweinsteiger が 投稿

I've never been quite sold on Herrera ever since we bought him. I appreciate his passion and how he just gets being a United player but quality wise, is he any better than Cleverley was?

He had that small good patch of form at the end of last season when he, Valencia and Mata were great but that's pretty much it. The question lies if he can truly be a great box-to-box player for us. He has a decent shot and a good passing range but his ball retention isn't great. He can also be reckless and get out-muscled by a more physical side. The game against West Ham exposed much of his weaknesses; reckless, terrible in possesion and offering nothing, attacking wise. Currently, Rooney does a better job at being our B2B player.

As an argument, you could say LVG hasn't given him enough games but in matches like against Midtjylland he hasn't given any indication that he can be our new Keano or even Fletcher. He's in the same league as Mark Noble, Henderson and Cleverley imho and clearly needs to improve many aspects of his game to be anywhere the same as Keane, Scholes or Carrick was in their prime.

What are your thoughts on Herrera? Do you think he'll do better in a better system or new manager? Or is he bang on average?

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[–]Plonkerface4 42ポイント43ポイント  (19子コメント)

Not a popular opinion on this sub mate but I do agree. He's very limited, he doesn't possess those incisive passes that we require to replace Carrick and Scholes ect. His desire and passion are never in doubt and his work ethic is second to none but work ethic is never enough.

[–]BarbadosDMLord Scholes 11ポイント12ポイント  (6子コメント)

I thought he had a good first season but his second season has been very poor. I thought he would kick on

[–]rdzzlPowell 5ポイント6ポイント  (1子コメント)

Apologies for being the boring discussant here, but it is quite common for foreign players to have difficult or unstable starts to their careers in the Premier League. For all we could know, we could be seeing a Herrera like last year, next year.

[–]BarbadosDMLord Scholes 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

I hope he does. Ramires is a good example of this really. He was really bad in his first 6 months from January when he arrived at Chelsea. But the next 2 years he was really good. Then he had patches of good and bad.

[–]danskzwag 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

It's expected though regardless of form he gets dropped

[–]TheJoshider10De Gea -3ポイント-2ポイント  (2子コメント)

It's a shame because he started pretty well this season with a lot of goals too.

[–]azogthorinThere's only one Darren Fletcher 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Two goals against a shit Brugge, and a penalty against Liverpool hardly counts as starting the season with a lot of goals.

[–]Zidane-TribalOh..YES!! Fresh Prince of Manchester 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Compared to the rest of the team though..

[–]FeezbullGiggs 10ポイント11ポイント  (9子コメント)

He isn't meant to replace them though. He's a box to box player as much as a box to box player should be. This season has been very poor from him though but last year, he was actually more than decent. As a box to box. His link ups, quick turns or going past a guy when needed, all point to him being a box to box. But philosophy makes him limited instead in ways. And this season's games from him have been very bad or just decent.

Some people love to pad his stats about "he scored with every shot on target" or similar bullshit. That doesn't even include how many he skies or so. But he's loveable so till lately, was immune to criticism and even pointing his flaws out get you negative points because of the stupid circle jerking over him.

Is he good enough? As a box to box, yes he can be. Anything else? He needs a fair bit of work to be good enough but he is definitely one of the better ones in our squad now, which says something.

If he's not played to his strengths, then he's a squad player at best and maybe needs a new club unfortunately because it'll limit him and us.

Anyone expecting him to be a pass threader or deep lying cm is just kidding themselves and really comparing apples to mushrooms almost and finding a way to slate him. He shouldn't be used as a 10 in the traditional sense and definitely not as a Carrick replacement.

[–]Plonkerface4 1ポイント2ポイント  (3子コメント)

Well here don't get me wrong currently I'd have him starting every week and I think that he's going to still be there next season. I do however feel if we didn't have so many other positions to improve that we would be able to replace him with a better midfielder.

[–]FeezbullGiggs 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

I'd actually play him as a box to box for several games in a row to build form and all but LvG... Yeah. We don't play that way enough.

[–]Plonkerface4 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I think a few players could come out of their shells once the restraints of LVG have been lifted. I mean Schneiderling is playing like a timid schoolboy, The very odd time you see him hit a beautiful pass before he climbs back into his shell to hide.

[–]JayDevilK1993 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

if we didn't have so many other positions to improve that we would be able to replace him with a better X

This point could be made for almost every other player in our squad though.

[–]baby_bomb_squad 0ポイント1ポイント  (3子コメント)

Herrera bossed Tottenham and Liverpool last season. I think he has earned his stripes. This season he had good games (Arsenal, fa cup games, Liverpool, Everton) as well as bad ones (stoke, Southampton, cryatal palace, West ham)

[–]FeezbullGiggs 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

His good games aren't enough to offset the bad ones he's had though. But his personality and looks make people gloss over them and pad him up. There were people genuinely comparing him to Rakitic, thiago ad such here sometime back near the end of last season/early this season or so and surprised at his exclusion from the spanish squad. That's how much he's overrated.

There are others who make it seem like he's Cleverley though on the other hand.

He frequently reverts to being a box to box when he plays and is likely why he gets dropped too as LvG doesn't play the way he does in many ways.

[–]baby_bomb_squad 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

If you ask me he is the best out of a bunch of underperformers. No midfielder on the team can 100% say they deserve to start. Morgan, Carrick, Basti, Fellaini...all have been average as well

What did you think of Herrera last season though?

[–]FeezbullGiggs 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Last season he was much better than now on so many accounts I would say. This year he's been sporadic and all over the place in games. But last year he also played more as a box to box in comparison to now and that worked very well.

[–]ThadderfulRooney 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Exactly, you can't be box to box when our aim is to stifle all sort of vertical movement through the pitch

[–]salmansmmsir alex ferguson 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

I thought I was the only one in this sub that had this opinion of him so I thought that I should be silent. There is no doubt about herrera's love for this club, but I just don't think he is good enough at least he didn't seem so this season. Whenever he makes a pass forward it always seems overambitious and a wasteful pass

[–]danskzwag -3ポイント-2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Not many midfielders I can think off that can make them passes so easily look at how long it look Carrick

[–]K-QuickGeorge Best 13ポイント14ポイント  (1子コメント)

All to prove still, seen some very good and very poor performances.

New manager or not he'll never be the type of player to control a game, his high energy and quick passing is more suited to a box-to-box role partnering someone who controls the game. - Which is what we need to buy with Carrick leaving.

[–]AttackClown 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

partnering someone who controls the game. - Which is what we need to buy with Carrick leaving.

I personally feel he needs another energetic mid with him, like how Cleverley and Anderson formed a good partnership. Someone who will pass and move with him like Mata does, it is no coincidence that Mata and Herrera have good chemistry, they both pass and move, nobody else on the team really does that

[–]Mr_WilsonnHerrera 8ポイント9ポイント  (3子コメント)

He is a lot better than Cleverley & don't think the current system suits him but I think that is the same for a few of our players.

Eventually when LVG leaves or some of the other players move on you will see a big improvement in them.

[–]Rolling_TomassiShaw 3ポイント4ポイント  (2子コメント)

I think you might be disappointed if you think getting rid of LvG will make all our players better. Sure, for some of them, and getting rid of LvG may well improve things overall, but without a doubt some of our players are just not good enough to start. Herrera is one of them.

[–]ibaRRaVzLaJosé Mourinho 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

I disagree. Herrera has been poorly managed by LvG, as are most of our players. The squad shouldn't adapt to the manager's style which is what's happening here, the manager and the squad should complement each other. With LvG gone and a more competent manager in charge, I can see alot of our players improving (or at least not being shit). Herrera is one of those I expect to improve with a change of management, he's class.

[–]Mr_WilsonnHerrera 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Don't get me wrong, I don't think all of them will improve in ten times the ability. I think Herrera is good enough, Get him in the right system & he will flourish, like any player being used correctly

[–]jesusinarilloRooney 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

I don't think he is. He gives the ball away a good bit of times with his heavy touches and poor passes.

[–]larry_b_s_zombieGolemín 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

I completely disagree with people who say Herrera isn't good enough.

He tore us apart in Athletic's fantastic system under Bielsa. He plays accurate passes, he can dictate the tempo not unlike Scholes did 10 years ago, he can tackle and can take a yellow card for the team. He has a fantastic tactical vision of the game, he can shoot from distance... I really don't know what people want from him. He has everything.

[–]paul155 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

People want a bit of consistency. What you say may be right but he's had far too many poor games this year when he's been absolutely awful. If it was cleverly that had put those performances in he would have been slaughtered, but Herrera gets away with it. Needs to perform week in week out or find a new club.

[–]Skall77 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

I think he is way better than Morgan this season, who still receive a lot of love here. Not saying he is good enough but when we only have Carrick and Morgan in the midfield i'd rather see him with carrick than morgan.

[–]Lost_Afropick 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

He's 6' tall and plays like he's 5'1". He should be way more imposing than he is

[–]WarDemonZSchweinsteiger 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Personally I like the guy, but I think his performances have been hampered by never getting a run of games. I don't think he's been able to find the niche within the team he can fill.

One of the things I like about him is that he's not afraid to put the ball in to the forwards, or just play that kind of pass round the corner when the other midfielders/defenders are struggling to break through the oppositions midfield. He may not be as creative as an Ozil, or try to dictate the game from deep like Carrick/Scholes, but I think if you let him do his natural game, allow him to keep offering himself as an out-ball and keeping it moving from back to front. I think that's what he's good at.

Plus you can tell he wears his heart on his sleeve, and will give everything when he's on the field. It's not often you find a player that will happily do both jobs offensively and defensively, and put in 100% effort whilst doing so.

[–]Jah_man_Pereira 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Whether his good enough to be a United player remains to be seen. Is he good enough to be in our current squad? Definitely, the current crop of players we have just isn't cutting it and I feel that it's not really clear on what LVG wants Herrera to do when he is on the pitch. I think his currently following the simple instructions given to him by LVG but has not yet been asked to perform a dedicated role. I reckon a better manager will be able to get more out of him and i'm sure a better squad would make him perform better too.

[–]shinkag 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

He's miles better than Cleverley. Just like someone else said, he's had great games and some poor ones. Jury's still out on him IMO.

[–]HaveItUWotM8David Beckham 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

No he's not. But nearly all our players are so shit that he's not the worst.

Ask yourself whether he'd start for Real Madrid, Barcelona, or Bayern right now and you'll have a clearer answer yourself.

[–]azt95Schweinsteiger[S] 4ポイント5ポイント  (1子コメント)

None of our players barring Martial and De Gea would make their squad tbh.

[–]Baseball157Mata 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Mike Smalling would like a word with you

[–]Rolling_TomassiShaw 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Good enough to be in our squad. Definitely not good enough to start.

[–]targeryian 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

A lot of money for a squad player though.

[–]AttackClown 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I think he is quite incosistent and looks like he lacks the ability to play a pass further then 10 yards sometimes. Also his tackling is quite reckless, he likes to get stuck in occasionally but when he does it's usually just fouls.

Saying that, i still think he adds value to the squad, but i wouldn't be starting him because i feel we lack the quality of players he needs to have around him

[–]RicciRox 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

He's pretty meh. Decent movement, but his passing is quite poor. He's not the type that can control a game, either. A very poor man's Frank Lampard. I love him tho😁

[–]Canolais 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I love him, but he's so frustrating. Every time you think he's in decent form, he puts in a dire display. He was awful v West Ham. Messed up twice in identical fashion - breaking forward after a lovely spin, attempting to pass wide, gave it away. It seemed to sum him up. I lost my sh*t at the TV.

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    [–]DMP96LVG 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Simple answer, no.

    [–]Burns2692 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

    We have to be patient with him, as we were with Fletcher. Given time, I am sure he will come good and be the midfielder we all expected him to be.

    I get the feeling that his style of play does not suit the current system, the same as Mata. Guess we'll never truly know this until LVG is replaced.

    [–]A--J 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Honestly he's not, we aim to be a top champions league side and he's nowhere near that level. Look at the entire squad and maybe 2-3 of our players are what you would expect at that level. The whole squad needs revamping.

    [–]mastodonpower 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

    I said he was average a week ago and got downvoted to oblivion. Nice guy but he's pretty much the definition of average, not bad but not particularly amazing at anything either. For 30m, you'd expect more.

    [–]ybalkindScholes 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

    I dunno how anyone can judge with certainty whether he's good enough unless they've followed him closely for a few years. I've only seen him at man u and during this time no ways he's been good enough. But yeah, he did show some potential last year like you say, and whose to say that what we've seen is indicative of what he's capable of? It would be shit to lose him and then see him perform well elsewhere, based on work rate and passion and moments of quality (good finishes and assists) I would say there's still hope for him, but yeah, I've been really disappoint with him, and with the rest of our midfield for that mata matter

    [–]MalforianMartial 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Like most players i will reserve judgement till they have a season under Jose, or whoever replaces LvG.

    [–]baby_bomb_squad 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Like someone else said he was good last year but not as good this year. He is United quality though

    Herrera had alot of hot/cold games but it's not as extreme as Carrick who is my favorite player who has also had shocking games. Morgan gets worse when the team concedes a goal for some reason. Bastian didnt make as big as an impact i thought he would. Tbf noone in midfield deserves more than a 6.5/10 this year

    [–]benhanks040888Paul Scholes 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Last season, he's one of our top 3-5 players in my opinion. This season, he's not playing well, but neither are other midfield/forward players (except Martial) so let's not make a rushed decision here. Just because a player is in a bad form doesn't mean he's not good enough.

    He's definitely better than Cleverley and Henderson, though you can't compare him to Noble. I think he's definitely more like Fletcher, in my opinion even an upgrade to Fletcher. Fletcher isn't known for his passing/shooting ability, but his sheer work rate and mobility with and without the ball are his qualities.

    [–]TheGoldenHawk 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

    I think Herrera has the potential to be a strong squad player in the same manner that Darren Fletcher was for us over the years. Unfortunately the slow nature of our play this year hasn't suited his style and he's taken a small step backwards this season.

    Last season his best games we're when he was played close to Mata and they could work off of one another which quick 1 or 2 touch passing. In those games he was also being asked to press much higher up the field which also suits his strengths.

    Long story short... yes of course he's good enough. He's a passionate player who works hard and is even capable of the odd piece of brilliance every now and then. The best compliment I could give him is that he's the Spanish Darren Fletcher. His tackling isn't as strong as it could be but his attitude embodies everything United is about and he definitely deserves a place in our squad.

    [–]RiemsMUFC 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Every one of our mid-field players have regressed, which makes me think something is far more wrong than just Herrera.

    Schweinsteiger has the excuse of being injured, and Carrick has the excuse of being damn near 35, but Schneiderlin (under a new manager), Fellaini and Herrera have all grossly regressed this season. Last season we saw Schneiderlin become a highly sought after CM and one that we thought would be our true superstar in the mid going FW, Fellaini was actually quite crucial for us in our UCL qualification and Herrera was one of our best players.

    3 guys who have really under-performed this season and absolutely have regressed, again, says that it's more than just simple case of Herrera "not being good enough"

    [–]grad14uc 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Cleverley was never as wasteful with possession as Herrera has been. Which is even worse considering the two different systems these players played under whilst here. He's also not a particularly smart player, calm under pressure, or good defensively. The fact that he has a few more goals is pretty insignificant and definitely not good enough to make up for everything else.

    [–]chris2684Carrick 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

    I think it depends a lot of the formation we play. He is pretty decent if we play a 433. He has good movement when receiving the ball to create some space for himself (probably only second to BS in our team). However if we play 4231 (or anything else other than 433 really) he is pretty limited. Probably cost us the game yesterday. IMO he is very similar to Felli in that he can be good but only under very specific circumstances - basically a good player in the squad but not starting XI

    [–]xruiner89 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Really rated him in his first year but just seems poor this season. Makes so many mistakes.

    [–]danskzwag 0ポイント1ポイント  (6子コメント)

    Rooney is a terrible b2b his positoning is poor he doesn't know when to drop deep or attack

    [–]azt95Schweinsteiger[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (5子コメント)

    He's the best one we got currently. I think he has shown glimpses that he can play in that role. Unless, we can get anyone better in the future, he's the only one that can play that role with some effect in this squad.

    [–]evosu 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Rooney is SHITE at midfield, showed it last season and showing it once again. Playing hollywood balls 9/10 doesn't make him a good midfielder. He looks decent against bad teams but put some pressure on him and he looks terrible. If Rooney starts playing midfield regularly we are truly a midtable club.

    [–]danskzwag -1ポイント0ポイント  (3子コメント)

    What glimpses are those? Bar his diagonals his passing is average he was anonymous in the 1st half against West ham , his best games have been against poor opposition, his work rate isnt the best either

    [–]Lost_Afropick 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

    diagonal passing when he has an hour to choose where it's going. Under pressure it's a lost ball every time

    [–]danskzwag 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

    It's hilarious how people think he's a good midfielder , Andy Carroll was doing roulettes past him

    [–]Lost_Afropick 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

    He's our Gerrard now. People won't emotionally let go, long past the point where he ceased being effective. They even say the same things. Leader, influence blah blah

    [–]digitagCarrick 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

    I would like to see him be given another chance under a new manager but I think probably no.

    [–]Pedantic_PatFan Favourite David De Gea 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

    Poor man's kagawa, but very likeable, which like Mata, is a problem

    [–]azt95Schweinsteiger[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Don't get me started on Mata mate.

    [–]IDespot90Martial -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

    He is good but not for United.

    [–]sizzlelikeasnail -2ポイント-1ポイント  (2子コメント)

    is he any better than Cleverley was?

    Jesus Christ. Of course he isn't is. Anyone who agrees with you on this (or even has to think about it) clearly has short term memory. Herrera is better than Cleverley in virtually every aspect.

    But no creative player will thrive under LVG. If you're going to judge anyone, do it when the new manager comes in.

    [–]danskzwag 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

    You think Cleverley is better than Herrera?

    [–]sizzlelikeasnail 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

    No. I should've phrased it better