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[–][削除されました]  (30子コメント)

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    [–]Adahn5♦ The Communist Harlequin ♦ 7ポイント8ポイント  (24子コメント)

    We're going down a slippery slope of borderline sexual repression and it's getting frustrating.

    It has to do with the fact that men feel secure to do the kinds of things in your first example, and second example, within earshot. Being sexual or sexualising one person or another, women in this case, isn't cool when she's on the bus going to work or at the coffee shop getting her morning cup.

    [–][削除されました]  (23子コメント)

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      [–]Adahn5♦ The Communist Harlequin ♦ 4ポイント5ポイント  (2子コメント)

      So if I see a woman drinking coffee at a cafe it's oppressive to talk to my friend about how beautiful I think she is? Yeah I don't agree with this at all.

      If you're within earshot you're doing it on purpose so that she'll hear you. This is, of course, assuming you read what I said and saw that I specified "within earshot".

      as far as approaching a woman in public on the bus, whatever.

      Glad to see micro-aggressions don't real for you. Again, this has to do with a permissive culture that makes it so that men feel entitled to walk up to a woman at ANY point and hit on them. And your best-case hypothetical scenarios are a fantasy. But as a dudebro, the most you're thinking is probably that if she rejects you it's no big deal. Want to know what she's thinking? She's probably wondering what you'll do if she turns you down. Will you call her a "bitch"? Will you hit her? Will you tell that mate you keep referring to, what a frigid "dyke" she is? Or will you just leave her alone? Maybe you'll stalk her, and rape her?

      Women think about these things because these things happen to women more frequently than you think. Hang around /r/creepyPMs and read the interactions women have with guys who hit on them, guys who text them, who call them, who when rejected do some of the most vile things imaginable to them.

      Look, maybe you're a well-meaning bloke who is genuinely a bit blind on this issue, but the reason that women have written about this issue is because it matters to them. This isn't about you and what you want, it's about them. Respect that. Match your interests as opposed to hitting on women when they're on the street, going to work, reading at the library, etc.

      I'm not your dating coach. It isn't that it's "sexist" to approach women in public, it's that you come off as a creep and you come out as potentially hostile and a sexual harasser. Have a read here if you want to express your sexual interest and sexuality in the healthy way you claim to want.

      I don't see how it could be construed as sexist if my intentions were not to reinforce my position of authority over said woman

      Your intentions don't matter, your actions do. You can be nicest bugger in the world. If you're walking on a the street in the middle of the night and in front of you there's a woman walking a few steps ahead, cross the street. Give her the security of having the space for herself, for instance. You know you wouldn't do anything to her. She doesn't. Just an example.

      [–][削除されました]  (1子コメント)

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        [–]Adahn5♦ The Communist Harlequin ♦ 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

        approaching a woman at the table in front of you who is reading a book you also read and enjoyed and then striking up a conversation about it.

        You've read far too much Pick-Up Artist bullshit, friend. Let her read her book in peace.

        Yes see all I'm hearing from all of yours answers here are "it's terrible but my right to hit on women whenever I please supersedes their discomfort, also I know lots of women who like it."

        Come on... / I hear you

        I think we're done here. You have zero capacity of engagement in so far as checking any of the sources I provided to you, your only interest here is in defending your right to hit on women whenever you please, as if this supersedes a woman's right to privacy and personal space. But I guess you know what's best from your extensive experience with plenty of women, so those who have written about it, who go through the trouble of explaining why, who cares amirite?

        [–][削除されました]  (2子コメント)

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          [–]Adahn5♦ The Communist Harlequin ♦ 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

          if telling a woman she is beautiful is a micro-aggression, we've entered the realm of sexual repression

          If you bothered to read any of the posted articles, or bothered to do some research as to what feminists have actually said on the matter, rather than fabricate straw men that you can knock down any time, then maybe you'd see that this is not the case at all with any of the literature.

          Also blanket sex-positivism is problematic when it comes to pornography and sex work. Let's scratch the surface and see what you think about those.

          [–][deleted] -2ポイント-1ポイント  (14子コメント)

          You're opinion literally doesn't matter. You don't get to decide what is and isn't sexist. Listen when women speak.

          [–]_AzUr_Die Neue Zest 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

          You're right, that's the proper response to this discussion at least. I don't know why I said a whole bunch of less important stuff while he's literally trying to define what and what not women ought to be offended by on his own terms.

          [–][削除されました]  (5子コメント)

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            [–][deleted] 1ポイント2ポイント  (3子コメント)

            If only the rest of your post wasn't sticking your fingers in your ears at women speaking.

            [–][削除されました]  (2子コメント)

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              [–][deleted] 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

              Maybe "healthy adult sexual behavior" is bullshit and informed by misogyny to such a great extent that it needs to be entirely reevaluated instead just throwing the words around like they mean anything.

              [–]prolific13 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

              So make a case for that, right now youre just using a lot of namecalling and making a lot of empty assertions, youre not going to convince anyone with that approach.

              [–]_AzUr_Die Neue Zest 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

              Yeah and I can say 'I'm genuinely bourgeois' but that doesn't make it true.

              [–]SuldaniCapitalism Schmapitalism -3ポイント-2ポイント  (6子コメント)

              Ever heard of 'reverse' sexism?

              [–][deleted] 2ポイント3ポイント  (5子コメント)

              I really hope this is a joke.

              [–]SuldaniCapitalism Schmapitalism 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

              If you want equality then don't go around saying other people's opinion doesn't matter because they are of another gender..

              [–]Adahn5♦ The Communist Harlequin ♦ 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

              Their "opinion doesn't matter" in terms of what they think about how women should conduct their lives and how they want to be approached.

              [–]SuldaniCapitalism Schmapitalism 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

              That's fair enough, but should have been specified then.

              [–]eaturbrainzMarxism-Kirbyism: socialize the wish-granting Nova machine -1ポイント0ポイント  (1子コメント)

              MUH PERSONAL DISCRIMINATION THO

              [–][deleted] 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

              I still don't understand.

              [–]eaturbrainzMarxism-Kirbyism: socialize the wish-granting Nova machine -2ポイント-1ポイント  (1子コメント)

              Look, we don't need retarded rules for this.

              Attempt eye-contact. See if she looks friendly and open, particularly towards you. If so, try talking to her. Try finding out about her. Maybe don't actually mention her appearance: it's partly out of her control and she damn well knows that being engaged in petty conversation means you're attracted to her.

              If at any point she acts creeped out, back the fuck off.

              סתתתתתתתתתם.

              [–]prolific13 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

              Thats really how I think too, but apparently im a brocialist because ive talked to women in public. There's a huge difference between being a pickup artist and a creep and hitting up every girl who walks by and having the social skills to understand and read what the fuck is going on around you.

              On another note though, try to not say "retarded", just saying that's kinda ableist.

              [–]_AzUr_Die Neue Zest 5ポイント6ポイント  (3子コメント)

              The intention does not always match the result. Even well-intentioned people are not immune to inadvertently oppressive thinking, so when somebody objects to a certain kind of behavior it is important to seriously consider what they are objecting to. 'Microaggressions' should not be underestimated.

              There's also the fact that the privileged should not dictate to the unprivileged what and what not to be offended by. I'm not saying you or anyone else here wishes to do that, but it is always helpful to keep in mind.

              We're going down a slippery slope of borderline sexual repression and it's getting frustrating. It's okay to be sexually attracted to women and talk about being sexually attracted to women, a healthy view of sex and attraction is imperative to a free society.

              I agree with this but my thoughts on it weren't received very well. In the thread in question, what I said was not intended to be 'we shouldn't be worrying about objectification of women this much', or even that 'objectification of men is equally important'; on the contrary. Just that the disparity between frequent sexualisation of men to the point of turning this sub periodically into a softcore porno forum, and the taboo nature of expressing attraction to women or female sexuality, perpetuates the patriarchal dynamic in its own way.

              The problem there is not so much the objectification of men (the whole point is that the men in question are clearly still respected despite sexual parody posts), but a hasty and potentially dangerous solution to the objectification of women which perhaps is better for now, but should be accompanied by a stricter attitude towards sexualised male posts, lest it become exclusion rather than empowerment.

              I personally felt more alienated by the 'naked socialists' post than the 'woman with a sign' post, because the latter did not feel silencing or exclusive. And it doesn't help that former thread saw me downvoted a good deal, with nobody even trying to explain their disagreement, for what I though were legitimate concerns about the sexist undertones of current posting trends (the gist being that objectification is not the only issue we ought be aware of).

              Edit: Might as well add more clarification

              [–]prolific13 -1ポイント0ポイント  (2子コメント)

              I'm just stating my point of view. I'm open and genuinely interested in hearing what anyone has to say, but I do champion the idea of free and open love and I think we need to be equally as careful as to not stifle that and create an atmosphere where men are reluctant to approach woman out of fear of being sexist.

              [–]_AzUr_Die Neue Zest 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

              Understood.

              create an atmosphere where men are reluctant to approach woman out of fear of being sexist.

              Yeah, I mean, it is a fine line but I'm also afraid of an atmosphere where romanic/sexual feelings are considered disrespectful. If any display of attraction is discouraged for fear of being sexist then sexism is being understood wrongly, I think; in fact, this notion would be based on a fundamentally sexist assumption (i.e. the assumption that sexual feelings and respect are mutually exclusive).

              That's no reason not to be careful though. Objectification is probably the bigger issue here. Don't even get me started on the other more recent post, that was a shitshow.

              Edit: Lol nah I agree with /u/Adahn5

              [–]eaturbrainzMarxism-Kirbyism: socialize the wish-granting Nova machine 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

              Look, if you find yourself in that atmosphere, it's mostly because you're really nerdy and haven't learned enough social skills to realize nobody in real life thinks like a tsundere anime high-school girl in FULLTSUNTSUN mode. Get out in the healthy fresh air and it'll pass.

              [–]SemiHollowCarrotUPHOLD 📕ism! 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

              if a guy sees a girl walk past him and says to his friend "wow dude she was absolutely beautiful" then that's appreciation and a perfectly healthy example of being sexually attracted to someone.

              "Im just appreciating the female body" is totally something a right wing neck beard would say.

              Don't be a right wing neck beard.