J. Steinhoff comments on P-38 | Forums

[249th_Harrier]

Johannes Steinhoff was one of the great Luftwaffe aces and the leader of the 77th fighter group in the MTO. He was also one of the few officers with the balls to openly challenge Goring's idiotic leadership. Here is an interview with an interesting comment about the p-38. Probably he is referring to the G and H models he faced during combat over North Africa, Sicily, and Italy.

http://history1900s.about.com/librar...steinhoff3.htm

WWII: Of all the Allied fighters you encountered, which was the most difficult to handle with a good pilot at the controls?

Steinhoff: The Lightning. It was fast, low profiled and a fantastic fighter, and a real danger when it was above you. It was only vulnerable if you were behind it, a little below and closing fast, or turning into it, but on the attack it was a tremendous aircraft. One shot me down from long range in 1944. That would be the one, although the P-51 [Mustang] was deadly because of the long range, and it could cover any air base in Europe. This made things difficult, especially later when flying the jets.

[SkyChimp]

He obviously has no idea what he is talking about. Kurfurst said the P-38 was a rotten fighter. You think some testimonial from a pilot that actually faced it can change that fact?

[AerialTarget]

Harrier, you moron! Everybody knows that the Lightning had to have flown like a boat, because it's big! Just ask Hristo, he'll tell you the same.

[BSS_CUDA]

cmon ppl this man is obviously a fake, we all know that Kurfurst and Hristo have more 38 knowledge than anyone that has ever lived, besides if a 38 could actually shoot down a FW it wouldnt be historicaly correct, just ask them. this man is a fraud and a charlitan and should be strung up by the short hairs

[pourshot]

Originally posted by BSS_CUDA:
this man is a fraud and a charlitan and should be strung up by the short hairs

Wont happen cuase they got burned off after crashing his 262 :P

[Abbuzze]

Steinhoff: The Lightning. It was fast, low profiled and a fantastic fighter, and a real danger when it was above you. It was only vulnerable if you were behind it, a little below and closing fast, or turning into it, but on the attack it was a tremendous aircraft. One shot me down from long range in 1944.

He described a good Boom and Zoom fighter nothing more nothing less, at the end very different from that what we are doing at our dogfightservers.

[JtD]

There are other statements by other pilots that say otherwise, so what makes this one so special? He got shot down by a P-38 so naturally he's got to have a little respect.

Considering he flew a 109 that hardly had any advantage over the P-38 in 1943-1944, this statement is not surprising.

Most of the other opposition was poorer, RAF still had Mk.V Spits as main fighter in 1943, some Tiffys while the USAAF upgraded slowly from the P-40.

[BigKahuna_GS]

S!


You guys are missing the point. Stienhoff was comparing the Lightning to ALL Allied planes including the P51, P47 & Spit.

Since Stienhoff got shot down 13 times, it would be interesting to see just how many times he was shot down by a P38.


Here's an excerpt of a Luftwaffe experte's (Heinz Knoke, 52 kills, all in
the West) description of a duel with a P-38 (from "I Flew for the Fuhrer"):

"...At once I peel off and dive into the Lightnings below. They spot us
and swing round towards us to meet the attack.... Then we are in a madly
milling dogfight...it is a case of every man for himself. I remain on the
tail of a Lightning for several minutes. It flies like the devil himself,
turning, diving, and climbing almost like a rocket. I am never able to
fire more than a few pot-shots...."

2) "Oberleutnant Franz Steigler, a 28 victory ace in the Bf 109 with JG 27 in North Africa, said the P-38s "could turn inside us with ease and they could go from level flight to climb almost instantaneously. We lost quite a few pilots who tried to make an attack and then pull up. The P-38s were on them at once. They closed so quickly that there was little one could do except roll quickly and dive down, for while the P-38 could turn inside us, it rolled very slowly through the first 5 or 10 degrees of bank, and by then we would already be gone. One cardinal rule we never forgot was: avoid fighting a P-38 head on. That was suicide. Their armament was so heavy and their firepower so murderous, that no one ever tried that type of attack more than once."P-38 Lightning, by Jeffrey Ethell/The Great Book of WWII Airplanes, Bonanaza Books, 1984Pages 21,22.

3) LtCol. Mark E. Hubbard, CO of the 20th FG: The P-38 will out-turn any enemy fighter in the air up to 25,000 ft,..." "To break off combat, out-climb him if under 20,000 ft. Out-turn him and head for some help. We can outrun him up to 25,000 ft with an even start." Osprey Aircraft of the Aces #31- VIII Fighter Command at War -Long Reach-The Official Training Document Compiled from the Experiences of the Fighting Escorts of the 'Mighty Eighth', compiled by Michael O'Leary, 2000Pages 80 and 97.

4) Capt. Maurice R. McLary, 55th Fs, 20FG: "...I would say that anyone flying a P-38 should have no fear of any enemy aircraft - even dogfighting a single-engined fighter at a decent altitude. I consider anything below 20,000 ft a decent altitude for a P-38." Osprey Aircraft of the Aces #31- VIII Fighter Command at War -Long Reach-The Official Training Document Compiled from the Experiences of the Fighting Escorts of the 'Mighty Eighth', compiled by Michael O'Leary, 2000, Page 106.

5) Capt. Merle B. Nichols, 79thFS/20th FG: "After making a break, if we can make the enemy commit himself by turning with us or or doing anything but a split-S, we can usually be on the offensive in a matter of seconds." "When on the deck, if both engines are running okay - full RPM and maximum manifold pressure - the Hun does not have an aircraft that can catch us." Osprey Aircraft of the Aces #31- VIII Fighter Command at War -Long Reach-The Official Training Document Compiled from the Experiences of the Fighting Escorts of the 'Mighty Eighth', compiled by Michael O'Leary, 2000, page 107.

6) "Col Oliver B. Taylor, CO of the 14th FG in 1944, analysed the P-38's effectiveness in the theatre with the following recollections:...Stability: The plane could be pulled into a tight turn, essentially right at the stall point, without snapping out or dropping. The counter-rotating props eliminated any torque problems when passing through a range of speeds. This was particularly useful durning dive bombings and strafing runs because the longitudinal axis of the plane remained on the flight path along which we were aiming. Manoeuvrability: Generally we found the 38 could out-manoeuvre anything else, friend or foe, between 18,000 and 31,000 ft (5,490 and 9,450m). Below 18,000, it was sort of a toss-up, except that very near to the ground we could run Jerry right into the dirt, since he apparently couldn't get quite such a fast pull-out response as we could." P-38 Lightning, by Jeffrey Ethell/The Great Book of WWII Airplanes, Bonanaza Books, 1984, page 23.

7) John A. Tilley, an ace with the 431st FS/475th FG, "...remembers that Mac (Tom McGuire-38 victory ace) was notorious for going 'round and round' with Japanese fighters. McGuire told those under his command never to turn with an enemy fighter in the heavy '38 but he did it anyway with great success, particularly at low altitudes and low airspeeds of 90 mph (145 km/h)." "Although dogfighting in the Lightning was often played down officially, it was more common than not (in the 475th FG, anyway- they were an elite group formed on P-38s in-theater with an excellent core group of aces-HB)." "...so how did I get my second kill by turning a full 360 degree circle to the left, at low speeds and on the deck with an Oscar? Primarily I think it happened because the <Japanese pilot> and I both believed he could out turn me. I never would have tried to stay with him if there hadn't been 12 of us and only two of them. I figured I could always holler for help if I got into a jam. And I'm sure the <Japanese pilot> figured the usual tight turn was his best bet when he didn't have enough air under him for a split-S. Miracle of miracles, the big old P-38 actually turned inside the nimble little Oscar. I was on the deck, in a vertical bank, the airspeed under 90 mph, and the yoke was bucking and shuddering in my hands. That turn was nothing more nor less than a controlled stall. But without torque (good old counter-rotating engines) I didn't worry about 'snapping' out of control and into a spin, as with a single-engine aircraft, so I was able to pull enough lead for my guns to really hit him hard. By the time we had completed a 360 degree of this turn, he was a ball of flames and my aircraft was drenched with oil from his engine. I couldn't see a thing through the windshiled so I had to ask a squdronmate to lead me home. the I had to crank down the side window and reach around to clear a spot on the windshield so I could see enough to land." P-38 Lightning, by Jeffrey Ethell/The Great Book of WWII Airplanes, Bonanaza Books, 1984, pages 46-47.

7) "... Air Force captain that had served in North Africa and Siciley had this to tell Lockheed about his P-38 combat experience: 'The chief fighting characteristic of the P-38, aside from its terrific firepower, is its high-altitude capability. And because of its excellent performance at high altitude, the strategy for combat, he said, is to force the aerial battle upward whenever possible. For as altitude increases, the '38 gains the advantage over the Jerry planes not designed for the thinner air."
"Another point of interest is that the P-38 could not only climb higher, but faster than any of the German fighters I encountered. Thsi is important, and as a result of this characteristic and effective combat technique has been developed- that of outclimbing the enemy, and when he stalls out, just rolling over and picking him off."Lockheed P-38 Lightning, by Steve Pace, Motorbooks International, Warbird History, 1996.Pages 87-88.


______

[JtD]

But in 1944 when fighting later Spit's, P-51's and the like he would do so in a G-14, G-10 or whatever. Therefore there was a smaller difference in performance.

I guess if he had been flying the later G's all the time he would rank other planes above the P-38.

[Hristo_]

for those who conveniently forgot :


CUNNINGHAM: The Me.110 was a disappointment, then, as you say?
GALLAND: Absolutely, absolutely. And I think the Lightning was an equal mistake.

CUNNINGHAM: The P-38?
GALLAND: Yes, the P-38.

CUNNINGHAM: You mentioned in your book that P-38s were not difficult to handle in combat, that you can..
GALLAND (laughing): Many, many P-38 pilots are angry with me about this statement, but it's true.


from http://www.virtualpilots.fi/feature/...ntherrall2003/

Rall told that he was for a short time in a unit that toured the Luftwaffe units, presenting the captured allied planes and educationg about their properties. He had some stick time with P-38, P-47 and P-51.

Of those planes he told that he thought the P-51 was the best.

I asked him what he thought of the matchup between late model 109's against those allied types he had flown.

He answered that the worst shortcoming in 109 was the limited range, but P-38 and P-47 did not pose that much of a problem. But the P-51 was more difficult, very comparable to Bf 109 in actual combat. But as he said, P-51 could do it for a few hours longer in a flight.

from http://www.virtualpilots.fi/hist/WW2...llEnglish.html

What was important was the German Air Force had a formation of captured aircraft restored. They came for training to my fighter leader school. Certainly, I only flew the P-51, P-47, P-38 as a target for my students. So I learned these planes and I learned the advantages and disadvantages compared with the Focke-Wulf 190 and the 109. And I still consider that altogether with all these factors that the P-51 was most likely one of the best fighter planes. This was maneuverable. When I got in, the first thing, I got in the cockpit and I saw electric starting system. I remember wank, wank in Russia (refers to the manual starter by mechanics). Her (P-51) press button, prrrd, then we go (electrical starter, easy engine starter). Fantastic. Beautiful sight (visibility). We never had this sight to the back.. Very stable undercarriage. Very good weapons set. So I think this was a very good airplane. I flew it a few times, then I flew the P-47, then I discovered the speed difference, down, perfect. P-38. And I flew the Spitfire. The Spitfire was a fantastic airplane, but with a limited endurance like all the continental aircraft. So this was a good lecture for me. After that I became a wing commander of the Wing 300 (JG300). This was at the end of the war in February 1945. It was chaos. I don't talk about that anymore.