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submitted by EUhasnoguns
I was very anti-gun until I read this post over in /r/europe, now I am not so sure.
I never really thought about our government the way the american poster describes. I am also somewhat ashamed to admit that we europeans are timid people compared to the US :( for some reason...
I am thinking though most Americans think of guns for self defense though not for rebellion? I think rebellion is the last reason because it's so unlikely.
Do you think civil war over guns is even reasonable?
Is what the american poster wrote something shared among many americans? Or are they a minority?
Has there been cases where gun ownership was bad? I mean, can you think of people that shouldn't own guns? Why?
all 124 comments
[–]q31 27 points28 points29 points  (24 children)
It's 11:53 pm and I just returned from a walk to the Pizza place that is in my neighborhood. I took my gun and I'm happy to report, that nobody died. My gun didn't act up and start shooting people on the way there, while I was there, or even on the return trip.
My feelings on carrying my weapon are as follows. I only get to be killed once. I don't get to find myself in a situation where I'm killed by someone, stop, rewind, and try it all over again. So, since I only get one life to live, I carry when I'm in a situation that I feel warrants it.
It's true that most people are never in the situation where it's life and death, and a gun would help maintain their life. But there is always that what-if, and it only takes once.
It's true that America has high rates of gun deaths, but overall homicides are not equally as high. People only focus on the gun part. So, I don't think we're doing too bad.
There are an estimated 350 million guns in the USA and there are fewer than 10,000 gun deaths a year.Ten thousand deaths out of a population of 321 million, I'd argue that guns are pretty safe. They kill WAY fewer people than cars do, yet they are only designed to kill things. Cars are not meant to kill, yet they do it at a rate 10x guns.
[–]doomrabbit 8 points9 points10 points  (4 children)
A gun is a tool for which there is no adequate substitute.
[–]bottleofbullets 2 points3 points4 points  (3 children)
At least until we get lasers or something, they'll have to do
/s-ish
[–]RawketLawnchair2 3 points4 points5 points  (2 children)
I one day hope to CC a phased plasma pistol in the 40 watt range.
[–]ToxiClay 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
Hey, just what you see on the shelf, buddy.
[–]b_a_patriot 2 points3 points4 points  (0 children)
First of all I'd like to commend you on how well you've trained your firearm, and I am glad to hear that it has been well behaved. Second we should not become as those who are trying to take away our liberties and recklessly twist the numbers. It's 10,000 gun homicides a year, if you are stating gun deaths, then you have to include the 20,000 gun suicides into that number. I personally think that should not be included, because the suicide problem is a totally separate issue, and the means doesn't really matter. Now car deaths are about 34,000 a year, so that wouldn't be 10x guns no matter how you compared it, but that doesn't lessen what you are saying in any way. As you already stated, it only takes something bad happening once, if you're not prepared, game over. I don't wear a seat belt because I think I'm going to be in an accident today, just being prepared.
[–]Wehavecrashed -2 points-1 points0 points  (17 children)
Comparing guns to cars is inane. They kill at 3x the rate not ten. It's 30k to 10k and we do our best to lower that number. They serve a massive economic and social purpose that is completely unmatched by guns which should be blatantly obvious to see. The argument is a red herring to distract from discussing the issue in a meaningful way.
[–]q31 0 points1 point2 points  (16 children)
I'm talking about number of human lives ended. Cars do that at a rate higher than guns, yet guns are the target of so much outrage. It doesn't add up to me. it makes even less sense when you consider that cars are made to move things around, while keeping people safe, and guns are designed to kill things as quickly as possible. Yet, cars are more effective at the guns job than the gun is.
[–]Wehavecrashed -2 points-1 points0 points  (15 children)
Please don't tell me you're doing this. You can't seriously be this deep in denial.
I'm talking about number of human lives ended. Cars do that at a rate higher than guns
At a higher rate? You seem to be looking at it very simplistically. How much do Americans use cars compared to guns? This question should show you how stupid this comparison is. There's no way of measuring car usage in a way that can be compared to gun usage. And if you could, cars would be used way more than guns are at least "3X" more than guns.
yet guns are the target of so much outrage. It doesn't add up to me.
Maybe these reasons will help; Because people don't generally disagree on the usefulness and economic advantages of cars. Because generally people agree on the necessity of cars in modern society. Because they aren't the catalyst for national debate every few months. (mass shootings) Because they aren't associated with crime. Because the US has a pretty decent record when it comes to road safety. Because every year the car industry successfully works to improve the safety of its products and because the car industry doesn't profit from their products killing people, the gun industry does.
it makes even less sense when you consider that cars are made to move things around
At high speeds* please don't tell me you don't understand how people die in cars.
and guns are designed to kill things as quickly as possible. Yet, cars are more effective at the guns job than the gun is.
Yeah, because they are used far more than guns are. And I didn't realise guns were an active deterrent and not a passive one? You don't have to use a gun for it to serve it's purpose of protecting you.
[–]q31 0 points1 point2 points  (14 children)
Cars still kill more people than guns. All of your anti-gun feelings can't change that. The rest of your yammering is immaterial to this very simple fact.
That's all I'm saying. It's a red herring. It's a straw-man. It's whatever you want to call it. It's also a fact.
It's social acceptability that we're talking about. It's not loss of life. It's social outrage that you're wound up in. Not protecting life.
[–]Wehavecrashed -2 points-1 points0 points  (13 children)
All of your anti-gun feelings can't change that.
My anti gun feels are completely irrelevant to this discussion. Your anti-nazi feelings can't change the fact that guns can't be compared to cars.
The rest of your yammering is immaterial to this very simple fact.
Yep more denial. I've explained how guns aren't cars are completely different and you've ignored it. Saying cars kill more people than guns is completely pointless. It's just a distraction.
That's all I'm saying. It's a red herring. It's a straw-man. It's whatever you want to call it. It's also a fact.
So you agree that the fact that cars kill more people that guns is irrelevant to a discussion about gun control because cars and guns aren't comparable? Great.
It's social acceptability that we're talking about.
Great, and cars killing people is more socially acceptable than guns. Because cars are completely different.
It's not loss of life. It's social outrage that you're wound up in. Not protecting life.
How am I wound up in social outrage? I've been explaining how cars aren't comparable to guns. You're assuming things that simply aren't true.
[–]q31 1 point2 points3 points  (12 children)
When people get drunk and kill people with cars, they have their car taken away. They don't take away all cars because a small portion of the population can't stop harming folks with cars.
That's how guns should be.
I'm 35 years old and I've literally been shooting and handling guns for 30 years. I've never shot and killed anyone, why do I need to lose my ability to own a gun, when I've never done anything to warrant that?
[–]Wehavecrashed -1 points0 points1 point  (11 children)
When people get drunk and kill people with cars, they have their car taken away. They don't take away all cars because a small portion of the population can't stop harming folks with cars.
Because the economic purpose cars serves makes that an impossibility.
That's how guns should be.
What's the same justification for guns? Recreation? Safety? It's not as important as the economic advantage that cars bring.
I'm 35 years old and I've literally been shooting and handling guns for 30 years. I've never shot and killed anyone, why do I need to lose my ability to own a gun, when I've never done anything to warrant that?
That's nice.
[–]brigadier_lethbridge 1 point2 points3 points  (6 children)
What's the same justification for guns? Recreation? Safety? It's not as important as the economic advantage that cars bring.
The same justification as your ability to post about this here. It's a right protected by the Constitution.
The right to own and drive a car is not protected in the Bill of Rights. If you want The People to no longer have the right to keep and bear arms, then you should work on getting the 2A repealed and we'll see how that goes. Until then, there is nothing to discuss further.
[–]Wehavecrashed -1 points0 points1 point  (5 children)
The same justification as your ability to post about this here. It's a right protected by the Constitution.
Lol what the fuck are you talking about. The mods could ban me right now and there isn't shit I could do about it. Freedom of speech protections don't extend to reddit.
The right to own and drive a car is not protected in the Bill of Rights.
No, it's protected by economic and moral reality. Which i think you'll find works just as well.
If you want The People to no longer have the right to keep and bear arms, then you should work on getting the 2A repealed and we'll see how that goes.
I never said I wanted that?
[–]q31 0 points1 point2 points  (3 children)
Because the economic purpose cars serves makes that an impossibility.
So it's not only about lives lost?
That's odd, because lives lost are the only numbers I see spouted about when people talk about how dangerous guns are.
[–]Wehavecrashed 0 points1 point2 points  (2 children)
It's like you're having an argument with someone else. Are you even reading what I'm saying?
[–]Freeman001 26 points27 points28 points  (6 children)
Most Americans use guns for the purposes of self defense, hunting, recreation. The majority don't own for the purpose of rebellion, but that's the best part about social constructionism, guns can take on whatever role they are needed for by society.
Can revolution with guns be reasonable? Yes. Likely? Not at all. The hypothetical situation where society breaks down and the military has to figure out its loyalties would be convoluted, complex, and messy. But there's less than 500,000 combat personnel (around 2 million total which is mostly logistics and supply). So, in a country the size of the US, with close to half (about 150 million) armed, it would be impossible for the military to control all that area, especially if the military, itself, is fractured.
Can gun ownership by certain people be bad? Absolutely. People who are a danger to themselves and/or others (such as violent felons) should be barred (and are) from owning guns.
[–]RoccoRacer 25 points26 points27 points  (5 children)
The hypothetical situation where society breaks down and the military has to figure out its loyalties would be convoluted, complex, and messy. But there's less than 500,000 combat personnel (around 2 million total which is mostly logistics and supply). So, in a country the size of the US, with close to half (about 150 million) armed, it would be impossible for the military to control all that area, especially if the military, itself, is fractured.
Nailed it. I am a soldier in the National Guard. When the gun rights/control topic was at its peak (winter 2012-2013) this conversation came up frequently at drill and it was nearly a universally held opinion (in my unit) that we would not consider disarming civilians to be a lawful order. I can't say the same of all military service members, but I think the majority are pro-gun rights.
In recent times I've taken the philosophy of not buying guns that wouldn't have use in a militia (basically all my guns would be illegal in California). Some would reply, "oh but you'll never stand a chance against the awesome power of the U.S. Military!" Guess what? We're still entrenched in 15 years of war in Afghanistan and Iraq with guys who fight with small arms and homemade bombs.
I don't think conditions are at the point yet where people feel the need to use guns in rebellion, but just as you said, "guns take on whatever role they are needed for by society."
[–]RIPHenchman24 23 points24 points25 points  (1 child)
I have personally heard people say "who could possibly take on the might of the US military?" and my response is always "Vietnamese rice farmers and poor Afghans." It would be sad and bloody, but revolt is a pretty powerful force.
[–]Sinsilenc 4 points5 points6 points  (0 children)
The problem is its even worse us civilian vs us solider. as alot of the civilians are former military.
[–]Trump_Up_Your_Life 9 points10 points11 points  (2 children)
we would not consider disarming civilians to be a lawful order.
I wish those who forcefully disarmed citizens during hurricane katrina were more like you.
[–]the_shootist 9 points10 points11 points  (0 children)
Hurricane Katrina could be viewed as a good thing because after watching that confiscation unfold a lot of states passed laws stating specifically that you couldn't be disarmed just because the .gov instituted a state of emergency.
It was a well-publicized example of confiscation happening on a local scale and enough people were pissed that we were able to get stuff done legislatively
[–]RoccoRacer 3 points4 points5 points  (0 children)
I know some who would not do it there, either.
[–]Paco_Smithereens 179 points180 points181 points x2 (58 children)
The actual purpose of owning small arms is to make authoritarianism expensive. It is a deterrent.
As someone who lives in a country which has not in 150 years or more been seriously threatened with territorial invasion, it always surprises me how Europeans, who have experienced two world wars in their own backyard, as well as multiple genocides just in the last century, cannot ever see a situation in which guns might come handy in a political context.
I mean, it blows my mind. Most of a whole generation of my family died fighting in Europe, and when I hear the typical European, "Unlikely or won't happen here," especially in the sort of condescending tone Europeans like to take with Americans sometimes, it makes me wonder sometimes why we even bother with NATO and the like.
But Americans will get caught up in this conversation about the insurrectionary intent of the Second Amendment vs. self defense, but the point is moot: defense of oneself against a home invader, against an invading army, or against your own government is just self-defense. The detail changes but the root principle does not. What really underlies the Second Amendment is a radical principle:
  • As an individual, you matter.
  • As an individual you can say no. No to your government. No to a predator intent on doing you harm. There are important political metaphysics here: the state exists at our pleasure as individuals, whereas, those who push gun control insist its the other way around -- we exist as free men and women at the government's pleasure. The government may revoke our rights at any time because they're scared of us, or they despise us, or they're uncomfortable with us living in their neighborhoods.
Americans like me can imagine blowing the whole fucking thing sky high, were this warranted (and it is not, and has not been in my lifetime.) This would be no less the United States with the White House or Capitol on fire. What defines us is not government, not obediance or obeisance to the state. Rather, it is our intent to assert our rights - not ask for them, petition someone for them, plead for them, or demand them.
European states are much older. For much of Europe, rule of the people which we'll call democracy here as short hand (itself problematic especially for Americans - mob rule is just tyranny of the majority over the minority, and the smallest minority is the individual) came gradually (there are obvious exceptions; the French got really angry about this paradigm the same time we did). It was won, piece by piece, over centuries as feudalism was slowly beaten back.
The USA? We said, "Fuck you, no," and opened fire.
And that was it.
What I want, is not to ever live to see a revolutionary condition arise in this state: I despise and abhor violence (gun control advocates find this debatable; they will believe what they want to believe.)
What I want, is the knowledge of people in power to understand just how bloody, how destructive, how civilization-ending any war upon its own citizens would be. And I don't believe anyone seriously contemplates this.
But times fucking change.
You'd think Europeans having been through centuries of change would know this, but the European Left is completely and totally blind to the fact that they live in a world created quite recently by the sacrifice of previous generations - many or most of which didn't faint at the sight of a gun and could imagine it all sliding backward without the eternal vigilance liberty requires.
Times will change yet again. This is not the end of history.
Permitting the rights of individuals to bear arms to be infringed - and I believe firmly that you have that right - right now, this minute, however infringed it may be in your country - results in exactly one outcome:
  • You are powerless.
  • The state owns all of the weapons, and all of the means of force.
  • As do terrorists who threaten you now, who laugh at your gun laws for the absurdity they are. As do criminals and organized crime.
Gun control merely enlarges the power of the state; for people who cry "Fascism!" every five minutes, you'd think the European Left would see the irony in their hostility to The People being armed.
Does all of this have a cost? You undoubtedly know America's homicide-by-firearm rate. It absolutely does. Bad people, insane people, irresponsible human beings get their hands on firearms, the same way just about everyone gets their hands on drugs, if they really want to.
The "sensible" gun laws so many seem to support tend to lead to government registries, which contradicts one of the major aspects of civilian gun ownership in general: it makes them easy to seize, piecemeal. The Soviets did exactly this when they tried to quell an uprising in Lithuania in the early 80s. They knew who had guns, they seized them, then they rolled the tanks in.
Do you think civil war over guns is even reasonable?
I think with the number of civilian gun owners in America, it would be ludicrous to even consider.
And I aim to keep it that way. After all, we live in what is the only superpower, right? A government whose propensity for authoritarianism and abuse we get complaints about every five minutes from the rest of the world, right?
Why would we ever need guns?
There are those who insist, dismissively, that with all of the firepower of America's military, civilians wouldn't stand a chance. This is contradicted, firstly, by the failed wars in the Middle East, Vietnam, and even dumb intervention in Central America, all of which were at least in part, guerilla wars.
There is also the assumption that the US military and police would uniformly decide to go to war with its own citizens.
That is seriously mistaken. One thing you learn quickly when you own a gun and you go to ranges is how many military personnel and police support the rights of individual to own guns and have the same distrust of the excesses of the state.
So in reading the link you reference, the American there says that gun confiscation would itself trigger an armed response, or civil war, from gun owners.
If they tried it, I agree. That would be ample cause to say, "No. Sorry, but no, we don't recognize your authority to do that."
But I doubt they'd try.
The most likely response to a confiscatory gun policy is mass non-compliance. How they plan on arresting millions of us, I don't know.
Millions of us who are armed.
Good luck.
All of this I would say is not something all gun owners believe in; some are merely hobbyists and sport shooters. Gun control advocates are in denial of just how many of us do believe this, however. There may not be 50 million of us, but we do number at least a million, and likely far more.
Has there been cases where gun ownership was bad?
Of course, unquestionably. Our critics like to insist we like gun massacres at schools and the like. They can't parse - they refuse to parse or understand - that anyone would be anything but insane, paranoid, or ill intentioned, to own firearms.
I mean, can you think of people that shouldn't own guns?
The following people should not own firearms. I do not know how to legislate in such a way that would both deny these people firearms, while protecting the rights of others:
  • People with an uncontrolled temper.
  • People with an out of control drug or alcohol habit.
  • People who fantasize about, or would rationalize ever shooting at an innocent person.
  • People who seriously fantasize about or consider being a vigilante while the rule of law is still in force (with all of its flaws, it is, and in a fairly stable way).
  • People who are mentally ill, or suffer from untreated depression.
At this point in the conversation, which I know because we as gun owners have had this conversation thousands of times, people will start proposing so-called "common sense" gun laws which would prevent the above list from owning weapons, while "allowing" the rest of us to have them (They believe the government "allows" us to own guns, like a parent "allows" their child to stay up past midnight - it's adorable.)
Any law which creates any form of government registry or database listing which citizens have guns and which kind are out of the question.
Currently, law requires us to pass a supposedly shredded (after 90 days) federal background check through the NICS system when we buy firearms. We go to a dealer, we fill out a form, and this is then called in via phone. The government then researches our criminal histories and authorizes the sale, or refuses it. Every firearm I have ever purchased has led to a background check, and in my case I have also been fingerprinted and trained multiple times because I have a concealed carry permit.
I have done enough.
The one possible gun control law which would have a reasonable chance of passing in the United States is to strengthen and make more complete the NICS system in terms of requiring uniform reporting of crime from state-to-state.
Confiscation of guns, or the public giving up guns is out of the question. Our opposition believes it is on the table for discussion: they elect politicians and then those politicians, by virtue of having been elected by a plurality, then get to do what they want.
We disagree, and we point to the fact that this is in the Bill of Rights for a reason; just as a majority may not censor a minority or decide to violate any of their rights simply by virtue of being a majority, we assert that our right to keep and bear arms is not up for a vote.
And when I say we assert, I mean just that: We will not ask. We will not plead. We will not equivocate.
The answer is no.
And the debate our opposition thinks we're having, this "national conversation" is completely and totally moot.
They refuse to understand this.
I pray a situation never arises where we will have to make them understand.
[–]Papa_Hemingway_ 13 points14 points15 points  (2 children)
I'm on mobile, but someone really needs to put this on /r/bestof
[–]LividWonk 1 point2 points3 points  (1 child)
It was there earlier, but it appears to have been taken down.
[–]innawoods_ 1 point2 points3 points  (0 children)
Yeah, I posted it last night. Idk why it was taken down.
Here's a link if anyones interested
[–]NorthCentralPositron 13 points14 points15 points  (7 children)
This was excellent, as the upvotes are showing. I only have one thing to add. What I believe to be the true American spirit is one of self-reliance and distrust of government. I love the part in our Declaration that says: "He has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil power."
This is what it is all about. The government is supposed to work for us, not the other way around. We are supposed to be free and the rulers of our land, not some constantly corrupt and powerful unaccountable government that has more power than its citizens and can threaten them at any time.
[–]WentoX 0 points1 point2 points  (6 children)
This is what it is all about. The government is supposed to work for us, not the other way around. We are supposed to be free and the rulers of our land, not some constantly corrupt and powerful unaccountable government that has more power than its citizens and can threaten them at any time.
Except your government can spy on you, lobbyists make sure that your government is corrupt and when a swat team rams your door down it doesn't matter if you or every American has a gun. They'll shoot your dog and in that moment you're powerless to stop them, shoot at them and they'll kill you too.
[–]b_a_patriot 2 points3 points4 points  (5 children)
If every time that happens just 1 cop is killed in the process, eventually they will run out of cops. And there will still be about 100 million private citizens with their firearms.
[–]WentoX -3 points-2 points-1 points  (4 children)
See but you're missing the point though, you're not going to shot a cop.
Unless there is officially a civil war going on, then no one except actual criminals will. So the whole "guns will protect me from the government" doesn't matter, because if they feel like it they will ruin your life, and your gun owning neighbors will just wonder what kind of crimes you've committed.
[–]b_a_patriot 2 points3 points4 points  (3 children)
So if the cops bust into your house and may kill you and your family, you won't even try to react, because it's okay for the police to kill you, because they're the police. People are going to resist and justifiably so, to the government taking away their freedoms and property, breaking into their homes, invading their privacy, and threatening their lives and the lives of their families. What happens after the cops have shot and killed 10,000 Americans who were lawful citizens, but suddenly became felons by having their rights taken away. We mustn't forget, it wasn't the fact that we as British colonials were being taxed that we finally took up arms, it was the fact that the British were attempting to take our arms that finally drove us to armed revolution. "This line and no farther", and I would thank you not to tell me what I will or won't do.
[–]WentoX -1 points0 points1 point  (2 children)
Why would I expect the cops to kill me and my family though? They have little reason to use force. In fact, In several nordic countries the cops don't even carry their weapon on them, they leave them in their cars. In most of Europe the amounts of shots fired from police will be less per year than american police fire in a month. And that is taking the population difference into account.
The reason for this is that our cops don't have to worry about getting their heads blown off just for stopping someone speeding, I can step out of my vehicle and they won't flinch. That's how we have it over here.
What happens after the cops have shot and killed 10,000 Americans who were lawful citizens, but suddenly became felons by having their rights taken away.
So why is it that you guys seem to fear this? Also this clearly would create a civil war, which was outside of the paramaters of my statement
you're not going to shot a cop. Unless there is officially a civil war going on,
my question was more of the nature that if the cops knocked your door down right now, would your first response be to shoot at them?
Should I find out that the cops in my country have gone on a killing spree i can go get myself a gun then, it wouldn't be that difficult to be honest, it's more of a cultural thing. the gun stores are still privately owned, Should the goverment try to fuck the population over then the legislations no longer matter, the store will continue to sell their weapons. The difference is that we respect weapons more here, guns aren't fun, they're lethal devices used purely for death and destruction. That is their sole purpose for existing. So why should I have one in my home?
Now you might also go for the "what if someone breaks into your home" argument, that has happened to me. They stole my home key from my locker at the gym, I stopped them without even being home, it was real simple. See, I have a sensor that detects if my door is opened, and if it doesn't detect my phones bluetooth in the vicinity then it'll sound a rather loud alarm. It won't call the cops, it won't record them, It'll do just that one thing. Beeeeeeeeeep.
That's all it took, when i got home my door was unlocked, the sensor gave off a "the alarm has been triggered" sound when i opened the door but nothing was missing. Burglars aren't brave, you don't need a gun to wave them off. And they don't break in when you're home either, that's just stupid.
[–]b_a_patriot 2 points3 points4 points  (0 children)
Well, in America the cops kill an average of 1200 people a year, most of them are bad, but not all, and some 300 of those killed by police were unarmed. Just 2 days ago a correctional officer was finally arrested after committing 3 murders, that we know of. Also just 2 days ago in Philly a city just 35 miles from where I live, the police did armed swat style raids on 2 separate homes, both locations were the wrong address. Just about everyday in America the cops are always screwing up, arresting the wrong person, raiding the wrong home, killing a guy because he was trying to sell a cigarette, killing some kid because he had a toy gun. The motto use to be "protect and serve" but clearly when it comes to the cops, that only applies to themselves. As far as the cops knocking down my door, the real question would be, why wouldn't I be shooting them. Why would I who is a law abiding citizen, not a criminal and not somebody doing anything wrong, not shoot somebody who is breaking into my home, endangering my life and my family's. If somebody is busting into your home, you don't stand there and ask questions, you react. Now as far as the cops going on a killing spree, I think at that point they would have discontinued all firearms sales by then, so there won't be any guns for you to suddenly go out and get. Hell, the whole point of this argument is that all firearms have been abolished, and now they're coming to get what you may already have. In America the number two law of the land is "the right of the people to keep and bare arms", so this was an integral law for America as a whole. Also the term "civil war" is incorrect, that indicates set boundaries and controlled territory, up rising or revolution would be more accurate. Non Americans will never understand, because it's something you never had, so it's something you will never miss. Continue living in your perfect utopias, where there is no want or crime, and the government prevents all killings and wrong doings. The only thing which could make this more hilarious is if you're living in Germany, a perfect example of a government with no restrictions, which disarmed it's victims first, and then the world had to pay for it.
[–]EUhasnoguns[S] 1 point2 points3 points  (0 children)
You know in Norway cops don't have reason to use force because of how low our crime is and how non-violent the crime that happens is.
However, this becomes a HUGE problem now in Oslo because of how peaceful and non-violent our police are.
[–]Stuewe 22 points23 points24 points  (4 children)
That was a very well-stated reply. Thank you for typing that eloquent explanation.
[–]tharre4 4 points5 points6 points  (3 children)
Currently, law requires us to pass a supposedly shredded (after 90 days) federal background check through the NICS system when we buy firearms.
Great response. However, NICS checks are destroyed after an applicant is denied the transaction. If an applicant passes a NICS check the FFL is required by the ATF to keep the form for 20 years, after which time the document may be destroyed.
[–]the_shootist 5 points6 points7 points  (0 children)
I think he was referring to the NICS side shredding their record of the check after 90 days.
[–]Paco_Smithereens 0 points1 point2 points  (1 child)
Yeah as per /u/the_shootist's comment below, I was referencing de-facto gun registration in the sense of the federal government keeping those checks on record, which I believe they don't do after 90 days.
[–]tharre4 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
facto gun registration in the sense of the federal government keeping those checks on record, which I believe they don't do after 90 days.
[–]the_shootist 6 points7 points8 points  (0 children)
Damn fine response. Outstanding.
[–]Redactive 4 points5 points6 points  (0 children)
Great post
[–]brigadier_lethbridge 4 points5 points6 points  (0 children)
I'd vote for you, sir.
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[–]pilord 2 points3 points4 points  (5 children)
Wow, I'm an American who is definitely anti-gun but I have a lot of thinking to do - this is a great response, very well thought out.
There really is this kind of unquantifiable risk of authoritarianism that gun ownership could deter, and the really tough part is figuring out a value to it, whereas the costs are quite clear in terms of violence. However, in light of Trump potentially being elected, your argument begins to resonate much more with me.
[–]bbq_john 4 points5 points6 points  (2 children)
Just consider that the fall of nation states into dictatorships has been so common in human history as to approach a natural order of things.
We're not some special group of people as Americans. We're only immune from this eventuality because of the prescience of our forefathers. We cannot count on the goodwill of our government as should be obvious to people.
The second amendment is the one that makes all the other amendments possible.
Edit: bet I'm on a list now. ..
[–]Paco_Smithereens 2 points3 points4 points  (1 child)
Just consider that the fall of nation states into dictatorships has been so common in human history as to approach a natural order of things.
It is frustrating that so many people cannot process this. They believe that history has basically ended and the conditions we live in today which, however imperfect, are peaceful, ordered, and free, will last forever.
It is a kind of historical blindness I cannot understand. Even a conversation about a situation in which rebellion would be completely justified always gets turned into, "You're plotting right now to overthrow the government and go on some sort of Rambo-like shooting spree (accused of this in this actual thread!)"
I don't even know how to continue the conversation at this point.
The sheer faith in bureaucracy and human institutions to withstand, by themselves, the tidal waves of history, astonishes me.
[–]bbq_john 1 point2 points3 points  (0 children)
I'm going to print your comment and give a copy to the people who don't get it.
Probably going to need a go fund me account to afford the paper, because NOBODY gets it.
As well, the TPTB count on what you said. Nobody thinks it can happen here. Hundreds of millions of people have said that very thing over the centuries, and they've been wrong much of the time.
.....
Dear good people of America: it can happen here. Eternal vigilance is the price of freedom.
Great, now I'm on another list.
[–]Kiltmanenator 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
A short answer wrt to resisting the govt is this:
I don't think I'll ever have to use it, but I can't know that I'm 100 years my descendants won't. It's why I don't want people I like having too much power in government; there's no knowing who is going to come after and abuse that power.
I don't think the point is to fully defeat the US military, or the police. The point is to make huge, disgusting violations of civil liberties by a tyrant very cost prohibitive. It doesn't have to be a full revolt, but if Muslim Americans are getting dragged off to interment camps under The Donald and they start shooting police rather than going quietly that's not something that can be ignored by the media.
No mass gun ownership, no ability to make your voice heard if it goes to shit.
And that's the thing, I can't know that in 300 years that it won't go to shit. The USA may not exist, but there will be still be people living here and I sincerely hope they can defend themselves from their government, or terrorists, or fascists, or ethnic/sectarian violence if it looks like the Balkans in the 90s.
[–]SikhAndDestroy 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
Take some perspective. Almost universally, selective arms controls are followed by restrictions on business, access to financing, education, land ownership, etc.
People who advocate for gun control never stop there. Apartheid-like states don't happen overnight.
[–]EUhasnoguns[S] 1 point2 points3 points  (3 children)
If you an American that wants EU gun control("common sense"), someone needs to slap some sense into you....
After much reading in this thread and with my other EU/Norwegian redditors... I really can't find any holes in the American cause for gun ownership. I used to be very anti-gun but now I have turned 180 on this subject. When I talked various friends and colleagues of mine about this, none could give a good counter to the collection of reddit posts I have read. They all boiled down to repeating the same questions I answered before or some emotional appeal response...... I suspect some of my friends and colleagues think I have lost my mind, as I argue why individuals owning guns as Americans do is a good thing overall.
I now think being able to fight as an individual against another or even against the state is the sign of a truly free society. I think a truly scared society, in my opinion isn't one that owns lots of guns or doesn't own guns at all; it's one that removes owning a gun as even an option.
:(
This sad mentality of "why would you need X" , it starts with guns and will inevitably spread throughout a country's policies.... We ban certain speech "because why would you say that?" and even certain kinds of video games "why would you want to play that?"
Speaking of video games... after the 2011 norway shooting some retail stores pulled a bunch of games from their store. Things like world of warcraft and call of duty games.
Breivik, who has admitted killing 77 people, claimed he had used Call of Duty: Modern Warfare to “develop target acquisition” using "holographic" technology.
You may have similar people in America but I assure you that your version of "liberal" gun grabber is a tiny minority in your country. In norway and eu they are the norm, I now see them as a sad and oppressive norm....
Now I'm mad that I wasn't born an American... T______T
[–]creddox 1 point2 points3 points  (1 child)
Well... welcome to the dark side I suppose ;)
Owning firearms has really opened my eyes up about these kinds of issues (as there are more than one in the EU). As they say, the first step to betterment is acknowledgement. Don't get discouraged by talking to other people, as it is necessary to evaluate and evolve your position as well as theirs. My experience has been that, if you argue your points well enough, people won't chastise you for your views (except a few intolerant ones). The superiority complex can get to you sometimes though, modesty should really suit everyone.
[–]EUhasnoguns[S] 1 point2 points3 points  (0 children)
The jedi are good? The sith are evil? Hah, starwars 1-6 is Rebel Alliance propaganda at its finest.
[–]SirEDCaLot 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
When I talked various friends and colleagues of mine about this, none could give a good counter to the collection of reddit posts I have read. They all boiled down to repeating the same questions I answered before or some emotional appeal response.
Congrats on learning to think for yourself and do your own research. The conclusion doesn't matter, what's important is that you ask the questions and demand they be answered rather than unthinkingly accepting the same conclusions as everybody else. You'd be amazed how sadly rare this quality is in people and how common groupthink is on a great many issues.
This sad mentality of "why would you need X" , it starts with guns and will inevitably spread throughout a country's policies.... We ban certain speech "because why would you say that?" and even certain kinds of video games "why would you want to play that?"
One of the basic tenets of a Free society is that an individual need not justify their actions, they are free to take any action as long as that action doesn't unnecessarily harm others. A requirement of 'need' to exercise any right (including free speech) is antithetical to the concept of a Free society. If one must justify 'need' to the satisfaction of some governing body before speaking freely, then that is by definition not free speech.
You may have similar people in America but I assure you that your version of "liberal" gun grabber is a tiny minority in your country.
Well a shrinking minority at least. It's generally about 50/50 whether gun rights or gun control are more important, but the trend is in favor of gun rights.
However the bigger problem is people who don't do their own research or any independent thinking before drawing a conclusion. Trust me we have LOTS of those people here.
Now I'm mad that I wasn't born an American... T______T
If you want to immigrate, I suggest trying it sooner rather than later, as opinion seems to be shifting against free migration policies... it's generally easier if you have some money and a college degree...
[–]vague_sortof 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
If it makes you feel better I was on the opposite side of the argument but I think I shifted a bit more to the right. I wish more people would read arguments against their opinion more to at least understand what the other side is thinking. Great comment, Thank you
[–]Spikekuji 0 points1 point2 points  (1 child)
Gun show loophole sucks though.
[–]Paco_Smithereens 1 point2 points3 points  (0 children)
It's sort of like saying, buying marijuana in Denver from an unauthorized pot dealer sucks.
Sure, I mean, marijuana who cares. Comparing the two in terms of potential damage is ridiculous, but I'm focusing on the context of, "I can't get it legally, so what now."
I guess in some sense, but as with drugs, the concept that bad people with bad intentions are somehow going to avoid acquiring weapons on a black market which spans the globe, is like saying, if we just toughened up drug laws and checked IDs, you wouldn't have adolescents getting their hands on drugs.
I lived through the crack epidemic in New York and even worked in NYC for a time doing deliveries in a shitty old van all over the city. New York, Newark, all of these places with a van full of thousands of dollars of equipment.
Every day I was concerned about that. Every night, despite about two decades of strict gun control, people were getting gunned down in the streets.
It had nothing to do with background checks. It had to do with stolen weapons. As it does now.
Yeah, some people get guns through the gunshow loophole. Close that and they'll just move to the black market. It's a simplistic solution to a problem that cannot be solved by prohibition, just like drugs, alcohol, and prostitution.
[–]this-user-is -1 points0 points1 point  (0 children)
Honestly I am really sad with how prevalent this mindset about the government appears to be in America. To explain what I mean i'll state the situation in Australia.
When we passed gun-control laws 80% of Australians supported it vs 67% of Americans and I think I know why.
In Australia there is a prevalent sense that if people really want change in the government they can directly contribute to this. If the Australian government decided to enslave Tasmania for instance ( a small Australian state) it would never ever ever ever ever work as the majority of Australians who didn't support it would quickly gain political representation and stop the bill from passing. In America however people feel that this is not nearly as true and that the only way Tasmania could remain free is by taking up arms to physically stop the Australian government from taking control.
My point is that I think you are missing a HUGE point- the government in America works VERY differently to the government in many European countries. Perhaps European individuals are much more in control of the government than in America and as such we are not upset by the government telling us what to do as we ARE the government. in the US clearly people like you view them as a potentially hostile entity. None of the brutal totalitarian European states came out of this sort of people controlled democracies. For instance Hitler rose to power primarily off of the faulty Weimar constitution that allowed a random military officer to install any leader he wanted- definitely not a hallmark of any modern European states and as such why the hell would gun control scare us? we are in total control of the gov so there is no chance of any random dictatorship taking over. Also worth noting that in the case of the Nazis the lack of gun control allowed them to do things like intimidate their political enemies causing them to gain an increased 23% representation in the parliament largely contributing to the fall of the Weimar republic. The police simply couldn't resist the powerful Nazi movement with their extensive arms power so be careful when citing history as evidence of arms control as a danger as it might bite you in the dick. Also if you want people to seriously respect your opinion you should be REALLY careful to not throw in needless insults like I just did.
[–]soggyindo comment score below threshold-9 points-8 points-7 points  (17 children)
Rolls eyes at naive paranoia
[–]Paco_Smithereens 4 points5 points6 points  (16 children)
Rolls eyes at infantile historically oblivious naivete.
[–]soggyindo -1 points0 points1 point  (15 children)
Actually though, the reverse is true. Private gun ownership had zero impact on resistance to Fascism, countries with high or low ownership all suffered the same fate. Armed forces and intelligence services, using the full force of industry, decided every theater (even Greece).
In regards to American history, the Founding Fathers had zero intention that the Second Amendment would have anything to do with resisting tyranny. The actual origins of it were much more subtle, and rooted in Ancient Greek society.
We have forgotten the Classical influences of the American Revolution, and the "resist Tyranny" reading is a myth that has unfortunately become widespread.
Sources in top comment:
[–]Paco_Smithereens 1 point2 points3 points  (9 children)
Whether true or not, the answer is still, "No." Because if indeed it is true that our framers didn't believe there was any intention related to toppling a repressive regime, it would certainly be our duty to assert such a right anyway.
If you believe you can make a case that the framers did not intend for an armed citizenry to topple a tyrannical government, I encourage you to continue to do so.
Your link includes the following:
Virtuous citizens, interested not only in protecting their property from theft and destruction of an enemy army, would also be keenly aware of maintaining a political balance of power between politicians (for lack of a more specific term) and citizens
Of which gun confiscation, or gun control, would in and of itself represent an intolerable imbalance, correctable by the very arms in question.
the core of the belief in the militia was that citizens were interested in maintaining the balance of political power and defending their property, and were thus much more trustworthy than men fighting for pay.
Such as the sort of people who "for pay," would be involved in any form of forcible gun control. I really don't see how any of this makes your point. I am not an anarchist; I am a small-r republican. I live within the law, I buy my guns legally, and I submit - reluctantly - to fingerprinting, background checks, and permitting to do so. It is indeed maintaining this balance through the possession of arms in concert with millions of others, that I am principally concerned with.
Without the threat of firing back, that is toothless and irrelevant. And shoot back, I would.
In a too-vague answer to your question: what would the writers have had in mind when writing the 2nd Amendment? Largely, the rights and responsibilities of virtuous citizenry in maintaining political balance between the state - believed to accumulate and hold on to power by its very nature - and propertied men.
Which, if you read my comment, is exactly the point I make: the very possession of arms in these numbers makes impossible any intolerable attempt to disarm the populace.
So I think it is doing its job.
But again:
  • In ancient Rome, I would have insisted on my right to own weapons.
  • In modern North Korea, I would insist on my right to own my own weapons; in this case, surreptitiously and likely of a homemade nature - provided I had the same consciousness as an American as regards individual rights, of course.
  • In the killing fields of Cambodia, the same.
  • At Kent State, the same.
I have trouble communicating this, because most people I encounter think along this axis of, "A majority of people vote for politicians, who then get to decide what rights everyone has." I think: "I am willing to submit to a vote, all of those things which do not infringe core rights, such as freedom of speech, freedom of and from religion, the right to self-defense by arms produced for that purpose, and all of the rest of things stated both in the Bill of Rights, and as a matter of natural law."
I am making the point that:
  • What you think is irrelevant to my assertions. I mean, the day is simply not going to come, where is someone is going to persuade me that it is somehow a good idea that civilians not own firearms, and that the state be armed to the exclusion of citizens. I'd say that's true for a whole lot of us. It's not happening. Not within our lifetimes. What generations do after I am dead is up to them. For the present, however, we are not going anywhere.
  • What politicians think, or legislate, is irrelevant to me, except to the extent that legislation can be functionally used to protect the rights of individuals. Fortunately, this is the case. We have used legislation to beat back idiotic and unjust gun control legislation repeatedly and we will endeavor to keep doing so. Should the opposition win, well, I plan on simply not complying. It is not on the table for consideration.
  • What the Supreme Court decides, is irrelevant to me, except to the extent that legislation can be functionally used to protect the right of individuals. And we have, fortunately, had some success in this regard.
  • What the framers thought, is relevant to me only in the same sense. Although, famous comments like "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants" tells me enough. The rights of individuals were clearly and obviously important to our framers; and for most of us, the right of self-defense, against anyone who would transgress our property or persons, is self-evident, even if it is not to you.
You may well believe that equivocation along these lines excuses you from the duty to yourself to resist, with violence if necessary, attempts to treat you like a resource or subject of the state. That is your choice. I will respectfully step over your body should the unlikely but possible day come in which the state has decided that it is omnipotent -- an idea, evidenced by the recent attacks on encryption, many in the state are currently actually entertaining.
At the end of the day, regardless, I will possess private arms.
As to the comments I always hear about how, "No way you can you resist any form of violence against you; your gun will be taken from you by an intruder, or you will be outgunned by the government," well, all of the money I put into gun lobbying, all of the civic paths I avail myself of, are proof enough that I strongly prefer the civic facilities of our ever unresponsive government - voting, contacting representatives, lobbying, etc., to the violent alternative. I certainly spend more time on using my rights as a citizen, by a fairly clear factor: Hundreds of hours spent on this cause, to zero armed insurrection attempts. I spend most of my time working, and the rest hiking, the latter of which I hope to spend my time doing for the rest of my days.
But the idea that because you yourself believe that one cannot possibly resist an out-of-control government by force, that I should say, "I don't know what I was thinking," and sell or turn in or destroy my guns (if that is indeed what you even advocate. You guys never rarely ever state what you advocate), is frankly ludicrous.
As I said in the first line of my initial comment:
The actual purpose of owning small arms is to make authoritarianism expensive. It is a deterrent.
Your opinion on this, for the time being, is one you are entitled to (as any opinion is), but it is completely irrelevant to me.
[–]soggyindo -1 points0 points1 point  (8 children)
Woah, wall of text alert. Can you say the same thing, but more concisely?
[–]Paco_Smithereens 1 point2 points3 points  (7 children)
Read it or don't; it is of no concern to me.
[–]soggyindo -3 points-2 points-1 points  (6 children)
That's cool. I'm happy as long as you're not continuing the "guns are to defend us against tyranny" myth, because those kind of factual errors don't help anyone.
[–]ToxiClay 0 points1 point2 points  (5 children)
Myth? I do not think that word means what you think it means.
[–]soggyindo 0 points1 point2 points  (4 children)
What word would you use for a made up story, that has later become seen as true?
[–]Obelisk57 0 points1 point2 points  (4 children)
You should watch "Innocents Betrayed". Free on youtube.
[–]soggyindo -1 points0 points1 point  (3 children)
Sounds terrible
[–]Obelisk57 0 points1 point2 points  (2 children)
I bet you didn't even look it up.
[–]soggyindo -1 points0 points1 point  (1 child)
Look at the title (innocents!) and the source (YouTube!). Not instilling much confidence
[–]Obelisk57 -1 points0 points1 point  (0 children)
YouTube so you don't have to pay for it. It's a 90 minute documentary made in 2003. "Innocents" is in reference to the subject matter: the disarmed killed or enslaved by their governments for the last 200 years. Includes multiple references to actual laws (did you know the first gun control laws in the USA were to disarm free blacks?).
[–]cp5184 comment score below threshold-8 points-7 points-6 points  (4 children)
The world's moved along since 1776 a little.
One thing. Where does the constitution say gun? Where does it say semi-automatic AR-15 or AK-47? Where does it say firearm?
Another thing.
We've been fighting a war against people that don't have the limitations that american civilians have since 2001. 15 years.
It turns out your john mcclane fantasies are utter bunk. Rambo and james bond are movies. They're not real.
And remember, this is in places where people buy anti-tank grenade launchers to shoot at cows for fun, and they don't even have a form where they write down "to shoot at cows".
And what a fucking paradise those countries are. Particularly compared to fascist europe, am I right?
And look at crime, and murder!
I've talked to gun owners about this.
You, /u/Paco_Smithereens might not believe this, but the gun owners I talk to suddenly stop mentioning places like france, germany, or the UK when we start talking about crime or murder stats.
Isn't that strange?
They don't seem particularly comfortable with the fact that all the stuff you're saying about how great guns are? It's BS.
You like your soviet history. How did armed uprisings against the USSR tend to go? How did your rambo john mcclane fantasies play out against the USSR half a century ago? Did you know that the only successful protest against nazi germany was a non-violent protest?
How did the US civil war go? How would it go today? What would happen if the bundys tried to succeed, or if texas tried to succeed?
Your gun bros will help you in your rambo fantasy? How did that work during hurricane katrina?
Over a decade of war has been good for prostetic development, and also for body armor.
Any law which creates any form of government registry or database listing which citizens have guns and which kind are out of the question.
Why? It works fine in plenty of countries. Remember every gun lover's favorite country switzerland? Remember their gun registry? Remember how you need a license to buy ammo there? Remember how hard it is to get a pistol permit there? Remember how they had to stop letting their soldiers take ammo home?
Of course you do.
Currently our law has a retarded nics system for when people choose not to buy guns without any checks in a person to person sale that can't even check if the ID being checked exists, a "background check system" that gives a pass to fake IDs, and is non-mandatory.
I have done enough.
How many weeks of self-defense training which teaches things like, when to escalate a potentially violent situation by, for instance, pulling out a gun (the most important thing to do is to avoid escalating by, for instance, pulling out a gun)? What psychological profiling did you undergo? Was any history of a violent temper in any of your records examined? Were your psychological records checked? Were your substance abuse/medical records checked, suicide history? Were your social media accounts checked?
What about requiring states to maintain a NICS available database of people who have met certain psychological criteria such as being detained against their will for a psychological evaluation, or being evaluated as a threat to themselves or others?
what arms are reasonable for people to bear?
So, for instance, no on buying post '70s automatic weapons? The answer to that is yes. The discussion on that came in and the result was no post '70s automatic weapons?
I hope some day more gun owners will understand these things.
[–]Paco_Smithereens 4 points5 points6 points  (3 children)
The world's moved along since 1776 a little.
Yes, in the years since we have had the Turkish genocide, Japanese internment camps, the Holocaust, the Soviet Union, the Cultural Revolution, the Khmer Rouge, Bosnia, and the endless bloodbaths we find in parts of the Middle East and sub-Saharan Africa.
One thing. Where does the constitution say gun? Where does it say semi-automatic AR-15 or AK-47? Where does it say firearm?
I care what the Constitution says on the basis of where it can be used to make a civil argument within the political system to protect the right of individuals to own weapons. If we lived in a society without a Bill of Rights or Constitution, my assertion of this right would be no different.
I do not recognize the right of any state, entity, mob, or organization to divest me of arms. Period. "But but but, I disagree. But I don't agree with your historical claims of the Second Amendment, but but but, Europe and Australia."
I know.
I get it.
The answer is no.
It turns out your john mcclane fantasies are utter bunk. Rambo and james bond are movies. They're not real.
I have no such fantasies. You're basically making them up so you can attack an easy strawman. This is one of the oldest tropes in this argument.
You, /u/Paco_Smithereens might not believe this, but the gun owners I talk to suddenly stop mentioning places like france, germany, or the UK when we start talking about crime or murder stats.
I don't. I do however remember looking through all the old photographs of my great uncles who I've never met fighting in those places to rid the region of genocidal fascists, though. I am glad you have societies with low murder rates now, courtesy in part of foreign help. France -- not the best argument for gun control. Seriously. Really, really not a great example to use.
They don't seem particularly comfortable with the fact that all the stuff you're saying about how great guns are? It's BS.
You know what I think?
I don't think you know a single gun owner in real life.
Not a single one.
I don't think you've ever had a conversation with a real gun owner.
Because all of the things you're saying are tired tropes we've addressed a thousand times. They do not make us "uncomfortable," nor are they clever points.
We can make your own arguments better than you can because we've heard every variant of them a thousand times, by people far more eloquent than yourself.
Perhaps you feel the same about us.
You like your soviet history. How did armed uprisings against the USSR tend to go?
The implication being it would be better if people in oppressive regimes simply tried to vote authoritarianism out of power, somehow. Accept your chains, there's nothing you can do.
How did the struggle against fascism in Spain go? Or perhaps the anarchists and socialists in Spain should have just laid down their weapons and given up.
Maybe that's what you would do. It wouldn't surprise me.
Your gun bros will help you in your rambo fantasy? How did that work during hurricane katrina?
What are you even talking about, Rambo fantasies. I have asserted repeatedly, and refuse to understand: I will not surrender my arms. I will aggress anyone. I will not take on the entire Vietnamese army, or Afghanistan (ever even seen a Rambo film?) I am simply saying, pass a law that says turn it in, and you will hear silence from me.
Why? It works fine in plenty of countries. Remember every gun lover's favorite country switzerland? Remember their gun registry? Remember how you need a license to buy ammo there? Remember how hard it is to get a pistol permit there? Remember how they had to stop letting their soldiers take ammo home?
Yes, Switzeland, a country which refuses to break a nail when genocidal fascism rampages across its own continent. We are very familiar with the Swiss.
How many weeks of self-defense training which teaches things like, when to escalate a potentially violent situation by, for instance, pulling out a gun (the most important thing to do is to avoid escalating by, for instance, pulling out a gun)? What psychological profiling did you undergo? Was any history of a violent temper in any of your records examined? Were your psychological records checked? Were your substance abuse/medical records checked, suicide history? Were your social media accounts checked?
I would laugh at and ignore any such requirement. You don't seem to get it. All of the things you're mentioning are precisely what I oppose, and will always oppose.
The answer is none.
What about requiring states to maintain a NICS available database of people who have met certain psychological criteria such as being detained against their will for a psychological evaluation, or being evaluated as a threat to themselves or others?
Yeah no potential for abuse here. None at all.
I hope some day more gun owners will understand these things.
Let me help you understand something:
  • I do not want to persuade you to adopt my opinion.
  • I do not want you on my side. The distaste you obviously have for me is mutual. I really am fine with you being in opposition.
  • I simply want to ensure that you lose this battle. That you don't get what you want. That has always been my focus.
Without a single bullet being fired. Without anyone threatening you or knocking on your door or pushing you around.
I simply want you to lose, politically.
That is what we have done thus far, and I assure you, for all of this exchange of text, my money, my mouth, and my pen is employed on a weekly basis, in letters to congresspeople, in donations to PACs and organizations, to ensure that people like you never, ever, get the opportunity to live out your submissive fantasies.
The right of individual to keep and bear arms is something you do not accept.
We get that.
I am going to ensure to my last dying breath that you never, ever, get your way.
The answer is no. When you understand that this argument we're having, this debate, is of actual little consequence, you will understand my position:
  • You can try to legislate. You might even win.
  • You can ironically petition other guys with guns to come after my law-abiding, peaceful ass, to divest me of my small and frankly low-powered selection of arms, which at this time consist of a few pistols.
And that, I have no doubt, you would applaud.
But I am not going to comply.
That's not bluster. That's not chest beating.
That is a simple, cold fact.
I am not alone.
Believe it or not, for all of this, I wish you peace. I wish for a stable, responsive, and free society with accountable, competent government.
[–]cp5184 -2 points-1 points0 points  (2 children)
I do not recognize the right of any state, entity, mob, or organization to divest me of arms.
Except for post 1970s machine guns and basically every weapon invented after the, say, 1500s or something, or whenever firearms were invented?
France -- not the best argument for gun control. Seriously. Really, really not a great example to use.
Why not? ~650 accidental gun deaths a year? 25,000 gun suicides a year? 18,000 gun homicides a year?
My brother's a gun owner.
Because all of the things you're saying are tired tropes we've addressed a thousand times. They do not make us "uncomfortable," nor are they clever points.
Everything you've said has been wrong iirc.
I would laugh at and ignore any such requirement. You don't seem to get it. All of the things you're mentioning are precisely what I oppose, and will always oppose.
Actually all except the basic self defense competency things were drawn from the limits you yourself said would want to impose on gun ownership. Violent people. Addicts. People with violent mental illnesses. Do you want to argue that bit out with yourself? I can wait.
Yeah no potential for abuse here. None at all.
You're objecting to the system currently in place that blocks people who have been forced by court order into a closed psychiatric facility or whatever the language is from buying a gun from an ffl? How has that system been abused?
The right of individual to keep and bear arms is something you do not accept.
Any arm that was available in 1776, which, apparently was more than enough for self defense, hunting, sporting, and so on is pretty much fine with me.
You want a brown bess musketoon? Fine. Someone like you might want to limit who can get musketoons. The insane, addicts, violent people, so on.
Control the musketoons? Fine. You convinced me.
But tanks, attack helicopters, rocket launchers, rpg, shoulder fired surface to air missiles, grenades, suicide vests, WMD?
That's where things get a little iffy.
Pistols, as many gun owners have pointed out, are a lot more of a problem than most AR-15s. The problem is that they turn city crime into an arms race.
Win? You mean like europe? Australia? Japan? Canada I think sort of.
Yea. Wouldn't that be hell?
[–]Paco_Smithereens 2 points3 points4 points  (1 child)
Actually all except the basic self defense competency things were drawn from the limits you yourself said would want to impose on gun ownership. Violent people. Addicts. People with violent mental illnesses. Do you want to argue that bit out with yourself? I can wait.
Actually you should read what I wrote. I said these people should not possess weapons, not, "the government should implement programs to stop these people from owning weapons." Alcoholics should not buy and consume alcohol but I am not pushing some program which blood tests people or makes them go to a psychologist to prove they're not an alcoholic.
You're objecting to the system currently in place that blocks people who have been forced by court order into a closed psychiatric facility or whatever the language is from buying a gun from an ffl? How has that system been abused?
I am objecting to requiring all prospective gun buyers to submit to a government psychological test, unless that is not what you intended.
Any arm that was available in 1776, which, apparently was more than enough for self defense, hunting, sporting, and so on is pretty much fine with me.
I assume you would also say the same is true of the printing press, and that the First Amendment did not apply to blogs, websites, or reddit too, right? This is dumb; I am sorry.
But tanks, attack helicopters, rocket launchers, rpg, shoulder fired surface to air missiles, grenades, suicide vests, WMD?
What are you even talking about.
Pistols, as many gun owners have pointed out, are a lot more of a problem than most AR-15s. The problem is that they turn city crime into an arms race.
Shitty people create this arms race. In the suburbs, such as on the street I live on, everyone - literally everyone owns guns, and crime is non-existent here. And no one is running out to buy more weapons because the guy barbecuing next door might have more than he has.
All together now,
Your opinion is irrelevant to me; I do not even hold it in contempt. It simply has no bearing on my assertion to own arms, which I will continue doing, regardless. I do not mean this petulantly. I am simply saying, "so what?"
You do your thing; I'll do mine.
[–]cp5184 -2 points-1 points0 points  (0 children)
Well, I'm sure your "mass shooters shouldn't have guns but that's just my private opinion and it shouldn't influence anyone" plan is going to work any day now.
Everything I can say or write today I could have said or written in 1776.
I'm talking about arms. You know. The constitution? The whole basis for your argument? Ring a bell? The one that says "Give me a tacticool hello kitty AR-15 .50 beowulf suppressed pistol with a pencil barrel or give me death"... or maybe something more like "the right to bla bla bla arms shall not be infringed or something"
[–]SirEDCaLot 10 points11 points12 points  (4 children)
To me a gun is a tool. It's a mechanical device that ejects small bits of metal at high speed. This tool has several uses, among them are recreation, defense, etc. I don't pigeonhole gun ownership or the importance of gun rights as being 'for' just one thing, just as I don't consider free speech to have only one purpose. They are rights that come with many responsibilities and benefits.
When you think about rebellion or civil war, you have to understand that it's not a yes or no issue. It's not like there is a red line in the sand after which all gun owners will stand up and overthrow the government. If anything, that would be a last ditch scenario that everyone wants to avoid.
But when the populace is armed, that will give any government pause before abusing said populace. Imagine if every Jew in Nazi Germany owned a gun. Do you think what Hitler did would have worked? More importantly, do you think he would even have tried? Simply knowing that using force against a population will be bloody and expensive forms an effective deterrent.
A good example of this is the BLM vs Bundy incident from a year or two ago (I'm NOT talking about the occupation of the ranger station). In this incident, BLM claimed that Bundy was illegally grazing his cattle, Bundy claimed that he had an ancestral / grandfathered right to graze the cattle which was only removed because of a bullshit story over an endangered turtle and if the turtle is endangered why offer to let him pay to graze the cattle? Point is, the citizens felt bowled over and abused by their government.
Government decided to round up the cattle and seize them. Bundy and many armed supporters said no, and prevented the government round up crew from taking the cattle. There was an armed standoff, but no shots were fired. Eventually the government decided that this was not worth the possibility of a firefight that might end in another Waco type incident, so they backed down and went back to the court system.
Now merits of the case aside, this is an example of an armed populace preventing the government from using force on them. If those citizens were unarmed, government agents could have simply arrested the lot of them and taken the cattle. Instead, the citizens made the price of forcibly taking the cattle much much higher, making the government think twice.
And this same principle applies even without the actual confrontation. If the government knows that a confrontation is possible, it can give them pause before doing something abusive to the population.

As for a war over gun control, it's already happened. The first battle of the American revolution was started when British soldiers were ordered to seize the supplies of the Massachusetts militias. One source of much misunderstanding- a militia is not like an army, per Google a militia is "a military force that is raised from the civil population". In short, citizens who are willing to fight when necessary.
The problem with gun control is that once you disarm the population, you take away their power to use force to defend their rights. Once taken that is very, very hard to get back.

Now as for what is shared by most Americans- this question has no answer. A lot of Europeans don't fully grasp just how BIG America is. With that size, and our many states, comes many different cultures. In a sense, America is like 50 little countries with slightly different cultures that all group together. So we get a full spectrum of opinions, from people who thing the 2nd Amendment (the part of our Constitution which guarantees gun rights) should be repealed and all guns confiscated and destroyed, all the way up to people who practically worship their guns.
There's a lot of differences from one state to the next. For example, states like New Jersey, Massachusetts, New York, and California have a lot more anti-gun people and thus those states have laws which are gun-unfriendly. OTOH, states like Vermont, Alaska, Arizona, and Utah have a lot of very pro-gun people and thus those states have fewer gun restrictions.

Has there been cases where gun ownership was bad? I mean, can you think of people that shouldn't own guns? Why?
I can think of lots of people that shouldn't own guns. People with diagnosed schizophrenia or psychosis or other similar mental diseases, people with a history of violent crime, etc. These people do a lot of bad things with guns.
But that doesn't mean gun ownership (as a concept) is bad. Remember, a gun is just a tool. Some people shouldn't have guns because they can't be safe with them, just as you wouldn't give a 5 year old a razor sharp kitchen knife. The 5 year old may cut themself or injure someone else, but that doesn't mean knife ownership is a bad idea or that the knife is at fault.
[–]EUhasnoguns[S] 0 points1 point2 points  (3 children)
I did not know about the bundy incident... Here in the EU, "reasonable" always means the government will have the last say through arresting you if you won't comply.
People here always talk of how so many americans with guns is just a power keg to blow. Like, if there was a terrorist attack and there were 10 gun owners there, we think the 10 gun owners being involved would end up killing more people. Has there ever been a case like this though? Because now that I think about it I haven't seen such an example on the media. Only about how many guns americans own and how people shoot up schools so they are dumb for having them.
[–]SirEDCaLot 2 points3 points4 points  (2 children)
People here always talk of how so many americans with guns is just a power keg to blow. Like, if there was a terrorist attack and there were 10 gun owners there, we think the 10 gun owners being involved would end up killing more people. Has there ever been a case like this though?
In terms of mass shootings made worse by gun owners- I'm not aware of any such thing happening. I don't think that even makes sense- if a gun owner is shooting at the terrorist and the terrorist is shooting back at the gun owner, then the terrorist ISN'T shooting random innocent people which in my book is an improvement over having the terrorist shoot everyone in sight. Even if someone gets caught in the crossfire, that's better than having many people get shot intentionally by the terrorist.
There have been lots of cases where gun owners act irresponsibly, none that I'm aware of were in a terrorist incident though.

The problem is that most people who don't like guns start out with the assumption that only a crazy 'gun nut' would be unhinged enough walk around with a GUN, therefore if they decide to use that gun in self-defense they will do so in a crazy or otherwise irresponsible manner. This however simply isn't the case.
Let's talk stats for a second.
In America, there are about 300 million guns, and about 300 million people. About 50% of American households own at least one gun. So to put that simply, half of America owns enough guns to arm the other half.
Out of all those millions of guns, in 2014 there were only 8,124 firearm homicides per FBI UCR. Against 300 million guns and 150 million gun owners, that's not very much.
It's worth noting that violent crime, including firearm homicide, is on a 20-year downward trend (scroll around that above site if you don't believe me). This is not limited to the US, it affects most developed nations. However it's worth noting that in the last 20 years while crime is going down, gun ownership and concealed carry have both become far more common. I'm not suggesting gun ownership is responsible for less crime (as other nations also see less crime), but I am pointing out that gun ownership isn't causing MORE crime.
Furthermore, you probably hear a lot of people talking about assault rifles and how we have so many of them and how we need to ban them because weapons of war don't belong on the street. Yet in 2014, FBI reports that only 248 homicides involved a rifle (a broad category that includes 'assault' rifles and other types of rifles such as hunting rifles). To put that in perspective, in the US annually about 300-350 people are struck by lightning, and that's not something we worry about too much.
As the old saying goes though, "Lies, damn lies, and statistics"- lots of anti-gun groups love to tweak the stats to sell their own narrative. For example if you poke around anti-gun websites you'll see a figure like '30,000 victims of gun violence every year'. What they don't tell you is that includes firearm suicides. When someone commits suicide it's tragic, but they are making a choice of their own, not being victimized by others. Therefore I believe it's dishonest to call them 'victims of gun violence' (a term which strongly implies action by others).
Most states require a permit to carry a gun (it varies state to state- you can usually OWN a gun without a permit, but to carry it loaded on your person you need a permit in most states).
Texas is one of the few states that actually tracks crime among permit holders, but in Texas a CCW (concealed carry weapon) permit holder is about 12x less likely to commit ANY sort of crime (including firearm crime) than the average citizen. That means Texans with CCW permits are more law-abiding (on average) than police officers.
When a law-abiding citizen uses a legally-owned firearm to stop or prevent a crime or in self-defense, we call that a Defensive Gun Use or DGU. The overwhelming majority (90-95+%) of DGUs end with no shots fired- the criminal runs away as soon as they see the gun. This makes tracking DGUs difficult as many don't get reported to police, and of those that are reported, few states specifically track DGUs. So most of the DGU numbers we have come from statistical analysis and victimization surveys, meaning that there's much debate over exactly how many DGUs there are.
What everyone agrees on though is that there are a LOT more DGUs than there are homicides. Our own Department of Justice estimated it at 300,000 DGUs per year a couple years ago. Various independent studies put the number higher, ranging from 800,000 to 2 million. I have no idea which one is right, but I do know that DGUs are much more common than firearm crimes.
If you'd like some examples of this, head on over to /r/DGU (news articles only there) or search /r/CCW for "had to draw" for some personal Redditor stories.

While you're doing that research, you should also swing by /r/firearms and related subreddits and learn about the attitudes people show around guns. Your news is calling us a 'powder keg' like we are all ready to snap, but if you stick around you will find that gun owners have an extreme safety culture; the overwhelming majority of US gun owners take their guns and the responsibility that comes with them very seriously.
Stop by /r/ar15 and you will find the people building and owning AR-15 rifles are not crazed psychos or douchebros who need penis extenders, they are enthusiasts who enjoy the challenge of making a rifle all their own. That's one of the primary attractions of the AR-15- the rifle is totally modular. Aside from a central piece called the lower receiver which usually stays the same, all the other parts can and frequently are heavily redesigned for specific uses. That lets an enthusiast build a rifle unique to them and the type of shooting they'll be doing. As someone once put it, it's like Legos for grown-ups.
Or if you want an example of how guns are used for sporting, search YouTube for "3Gun". That's a competitive sport where a participant uses 3 guns (pistol, rifle, shotgun) to move through a course shooting at various targets along the way. It's actually pretty fun to watch.

The one thing I want to leave you with is a suggestion to avoid groupthink. Lots of Europeans groupthink on guns- everybody knows guns are bad therefore guns are bad and us Americans are crazy for having so many guns. It doesn't just apply to guns, it applies to lots of issues. You're asking the questions so you're already getting out of it. But it's still something to be careful of.
[–]niksal12 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
I have been reading through here, and I have to thank you for being open minded and your williningnes to understand the other side. usually what we get is what you saw in the other thread where it is just hate going back and forth from both sides.
[–]766AP 9 points10 points11 points  (6 children)
If America's gov't tried to pass the Australian model, which Obama and Hillary (and Bernie, I think) have lauded, you would see a massive chunk of the nation go ape-shit.
The only legit way to infringe on the 2A is by passing a new Constitutional amendment, which requires a very difficult supermajority. If any leader or group made an end run around that proper avenue, citizens would start killing. It's actually a bit of a powderkeg already over here, ESPECIALLY if Hillary gets elected. Stuff like the Bundy Ranch is only the beginning.
[–]FakFeinstein comment score below threshold-8 points-7 points-6 points  (5 children)
You cannot pass a constitutional amendment to infringe on the second amendment. The first ten amendments are known as the Bill of Rights and they're unchangeable.
[–]TripleChubz 3 points4 points5 points  (0 children)
This is incorrect. The first ten amendments are just that... the first ten. They hold as much weight and staying power as any of the other amendments. The first ten are seen as more 'sacred' to the identity of the United States because they were written and applied by the same people that wrote the original constitution, but they hold no special privilege above any other amendment.
Edit: More history of the bill of rights-
The Bill of Rights was written after Anti-Federalists wanted a document 'enumerating' rights that all people held instead of the state. These are rights they felt everyone understood, but they wanted it written down to make it harder for the Federalists to impose restrictions on those rights through abuse of power by the Federal Government in the future.
Edit 2: Extra info on likelihood of the 2nd being repealed-
A new Amendment could be written to effectively repeal any of the original ten bill of rights. It would be EXTREMELY difficult to do so, though. It would take an act of Congress with 2/3rd majority vote, or a constitutional convention to get the ball rolling. It would then need to be ratified by 3/4 of the States within the Union (either by vote, or at the a constitutional convention).
This means repealing the second amendment is likely never going to happen outright. A rogue super majority Democratic congress could probably not get an Amendment passed in the first place, but if they did, 3/4 of the States would need to ratify that Amendment to make it law. This makes it unlikely to ever happen.
A more likely scenario would be a rogue president or congress applying new restrictions on firearms that dance around the 2nd Amendment (like the AWB). The 1994 AWB had a built-in 10 year expiration. If they attempt it again, there might not be an expiration in place and we would be forced to wait on a new congress to repeal that law, or a lawsuit / criminal case to make it to SCOTUS to hopefully declare it as unconstitutional. This is why it is important to stack the deck as much as we can with pro-2A supporters in Congress, and keep a balanced SCOTUS on hand to ensure that those vehemently against the 2nd don't get to impose their disarmament bid.
[–]ten24 3 points4 points5 points  (3 children)
Not true. A constitutional amendment could do anything. That's why the bar is so high for ratification.
An amendment could theoretically throw away the whole document and start over, although the chances of that happening are approaching zero.
[–]FakFeinstein 0 points1 point2 points  (1 child)
I mean yes, theoretically they can throw out the whole document but that would cause another major revolution. The chances of amending the first ten amendments are practically zero.
Now what they can do is reinterpret some of them, specifically the second amendment. The liberals hate it so much and they would do anything to change or reinterpret the second amendment.
[–]ten24 2 points3 points4 points  (0 children)
I mean yes, theoretically they can throw out the whole document but that would cause another major revolution.
Probably not, because an amendment requires overwhelming support.
[–]Sand_Trout 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
Except deny a state its equal representation in the senate.
[–]JeremyHall 5 points6 points7 points  (0 children)
The timidity that runs rampant in the EU is partly due to having a significant amount of the hardy and brave die off in two bloody world wars.
[–]wasdie639 4 points5 points6 points  (7 children)
Well I can't speak for all American gun owners, but a right to defend yourself does extend to the reaches of the government. I skimmed through what the poster you linked said in response to the American and he very much has no clue what he's talking about and has a pretty disconnect from real American politics and as well as how vast this nation is coupled with how extremely vulnerable we are to inside threats. I won't go into details there, but if you were able to convince enough people in enough region to take up arms against the government, America as you know it would cease to exist.
So now you have a basis as to why a true civil war wouldn't happen. The government would very quickly cave to demands made by such a potential simply because the fate of the nation depends on it.
There are roughly 80 million gun owners the last time any real polling was done, and that's assuming everybody answered honestly. Take it from me, gun owners don't answer honestly when asked if they own firearms. I personally assume roughly 100 million Americans own firearms. Primarily in rural locations locations out of cities. Cities generally have lower firearm ownership simply because they are less practical as a pastime in a place where you have no real land to shoot on.
Factoring the numbers in, we're talking roughly 1/3rd of Americans owning firearms. This is a staggeringly large amount and is actually larger than the population of the UK. This is why what the guy was talking about with disarming being a potential is completely bull.
Civil war is most certainly a potential since a single man with a rifle can put an entire city on lockdown (see any of our mass shootings). What would happen if 5-10 people armed themselves and went on a rampage? What about 20+? You're seeing where I am going with this. It's not something the nation can handle and thus any large scale movement made by gun owners would most likely have a great effect and most demands would be met.
That said, most people do not think of their firearms as a way to rebel against the government. Most see them as tools and toys. However, the owners of said firearms are very adamant about keeping them. There is a certain comfort you have with knowing that if push comes to shove, you have the ability to put real power behind your words. On a whole, most people don't think like that guy does. However out of the 100 million I talked about, even if one out of 20 did, that's 5 million people. That's more people than the US military and police force has in its ranks.
This is an unpopular opinion around here, but I actually believe that the prevalence of firearms directly correlates with higher firearm deaths in the US. It's logic. More guns = more people killed by guns. There are also going to be situations here where the presences of firearms increase the amount of dead through either creating situations that do not exist outside of the US or by escalating situations beyond what they would be without the presence of firearms.
That all said, and I have to say it as I refuse to lie about my opinions, I believe these extra deaths caused by firearms are statistically insignificant on a national scale and it's been proven that the gun death rate in the nation is dropping especially the intentional homicide and accident rate. Suicides fall under a different category and recently it has come out that even suicide by gun rate has fallen slightly. Because of these unarguable facts, despite some cases of firearms directly causing deaths, there is no reason to believe that general firearm ownership of all types is bad. The rate of death by firearm in this nation is so low that it's already statistically irrelevant to even talk about and if you compare it to the shear number of firearms we own, it defies all notions that guns cause more deaths.
Given that, I still do believe in this nation there are situations where the state should limit the availability of weaponry of any type to a citizen. Situations where the person has proven that they are willing to hurt others for personal gain is a situation where multiple rights should be denied for the person as punishment for their inability to cope in our society. Even though criminals do not follow the law and it's mostly a symbolic gesture, I believe it's important for the moral of our people to believe their government takes some steps to prevent known criminals from continuing harming others.
Sorry for my essay, I hope I helped.
[–]EUhasnoguns[S] 8 points9 points10 points  (5 children)
We believe that more guns = more people killed by guns as well here in europe. But from what I read the problem is murder not murder by guns alone. I think now guns are just attention to the wrong subject.
[–]wasdie639 8 points9 points10 points  (1 child)
There is some truth to that statement but it's extremely out of context.
America proves that you can have 25-40% gun ownership and blood doesn't run on the streets. More guns does not just greatly increase your overall crime rate. It may increase the amount of guns used in crime, and in a very few instances escalate a small crime into a death, but it really all comes down to context.
The problem with Europe is that guns are not a large part of your society and they are very destructive when used to harm so they become a very natural target. We see that here in the US, only the push back from gun owners is quite greater through sheer numbers. This is why you see a focus on guns. It's a lot easier to blame an object used for destruction than it is to blame years of failed policy, culture, or just people's behavior.
In the context of Europe it's 100% a scapegoat for politicans. They are simply trying to divert attention away from the real problem.
[–]TripleChubz 5 points6 points7 points  (0 children)
In the context of Europe it's 100% a scapegoat for politicans. They are simply trying to divert attention away from the real problem.
I'd say it is the same here in the US. Even with firearm-related crime declining steadily since the early 1990s, and even with homicides and accidents going down despite firearm ownership going up... guns are still targeted as the source of a scourge that doesn't exist.
At the end of the day it is easier for politicians to campaign against firearms than it is to campaign in support of education spending, reducing poverty, and ending the misguided "war on drugs".
[–]0x00000042 4 points5 points6 points  (0 children)
Exactly. Does it really matter how someone is killed? They're still dead. So you can't really look at murder by gun alone; you have to factor in the bigger picture. Substitution rates are a very real thing. The old saying where there's a will, there's a way is true for a reason; those who are truly willing will accomplish their goals in whichever way they can. If you somehow remove a tool then they'll find another. By focusing on the gun you've forced yourself into a tunnel-vision on one of many possible tools instead of the real problem, the willingness of the individual.
[–]NorthCentralPositron 2 points3 points4 points  (0 children)
I'm glad you are realizing it's not a gun issue.
Sometimes people choose to use guns, sometimes not. In the US, more killings occurred with hammers than with "assault rifles". Honestly, I hope some crazy person doesn't grab a hammer or a sword and go to a school. Someone could do much more damage quietly than some of these mass shootings without anyone knowing in a timely manner or being able to respond.
Also, killings and violent crime can go up after gun bans. I'm sure if you look there are tons of articles on it. Here was one of the first I saw: http://thefederalist.com/2015/09/03/the-australian-gun-ban-conceit/
[–]THE_SA1NT 2 points3 points4 points  (0 children)
We believe that more guns = more people killed by guns as well here in europe.
Except in the case of the United States, gun ownership is at an all time high, while gun-related death is not. If anything, there is a negative correlation between the two.
[–]ert4t45tet6y56 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
See what I was replying to before it. It wasn't my most well thought out post I admit, but minus the hyperbole the general gist of it holds true. A distributed means to force is beneficial for all citizens.
[–]tuccified Supporter 2 points3 points4 points  (1 child)
Can I just quickly say how naive I think your username is?
Its naive. I know it is hyperbole as there are sportsmen and hunters, but it seems as though, from your name, that you think that's the extent of it.
But I do thank you for coming around without inflammatory remarks, and asking sincere questions. I probably enjoy these posts most.
[–]EUhasnoguns[S] 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
See comment below :)
[–]cur1ous1 2 points3 points4 points  (0 children)
A dangerous Liberty is always better than a safe subjugation....
[–]Jacks_Grin 1 point2 points3 points  (0 children)
I never really thought about our government the way the american poster describes. I am also somewhat ashamed to admit that we europeans are timid people compared to the US :( for some reason...
You've just, in my opinion, become too complacent on a ruling class. The government enjoys privileges you don't, enjoys protection that you don't, makes rules that don't quite apply to them, and that's OK with many Europeans. Our country was founded on a doctrine of the opposite logic.
I am thinking though most Americans think of guns for self defense though not for rebellion? I think rebellion is the last reason because it's so unlikely.
It's a little bit of both. If you look at history, it's not a question of if a government will collapse, but when. Is it probable within your lifetime? perhaps not, but there is the possibility and it's important that you are prepared in case it does.
Do you think civil war over guns is even reasonable?
Yes, and I'll explain my logic.
The right to own arms and self defense is inherent in nature: If someone attacks you with intent to kill, do you not have a right to preserve your life? Of course you do. That is the point of life: Survival. Now with current technology, the pinnacle of weaponry is the gun. It ensures that even the physically disadvantaged can adequately defend their lives. Sounds good doesn't it?
Now who is the government, a construct paid for by the people, to tell the people that they cannot defend their own lives? Noone. And if they attempt to do so, they must be overthrown. Violently. Why? Because they have publicly announced that your life is meaningless to them. They don't care if you live or die and you will be punished for using the best means you can to defend your life.
Moreover, the only thing that gives your opinion gravity is the ability to back it up with physical force. If you kindly ask someone to stop abusing you and they don't, what can you do? You can either accept it or use force. If you can't use force because it's banned, then you have no say in the matter. You are helpless to be abused. This is the relationship between man and government. If you have no threat of violence, you have nothing to ensure that your voice is heard. No ability to back up threats, demands, rights.
Therefore, the right of the people to keep and bear arms is a necessity for liberty and life.
Is what the american poster wrote something shared among many americans? Or are they a minority?
It's the majority. However, even if it were the minority, it does nothing to invalidate the logic used to arrive at that conclusion.
Has there been cases where gun ownership was bad? I mean, can you think of people that shouldn't own guns? Why?
Sure. Crazy people may abuse guns and kill, criminals abuse guns and kill, people incompetent may mishandle guns and kill accidentally. But the benefits outweigh the risks;
there is no good scientific method to determining who is crazy and will abuse guns this way except for people who have been "adjudicated" as mentally incompetant. Basically a group of people see that the person is crazy and remove their ability to own firearms.
Without this, saying someone is "crazy" is subjective. We have people call others crazy over political beliefs, emotions, etc. This is a witchhunt with too vague of an interpretation of crazy, allowing the potential for abuse of the "crazy rule".
Criminals will procure weapons and do crime regardless. The BEST thing you can do is ensure victims are armed and have an equal chance. Causing criminals to see that there is a very good chance they die if they attempt to prey on others.
People who are incompetent is also a witchunt, since there exists no scientific standard for determining who is such. This has repeatedly lead to High standards which are meant to deprive people of the ability to own arms. For example, what if I made a law saying you must hit an egg with a pistol at 300 yards in order to own a gun. It's very, very unlikely. Furthermore, how would you train to do that without owning a gun? These types of legal trickery occur. Or what if you created a class that cost $3000 in order to be "competent". Then only those who could take off work and afford the $3000 class could own guns. Another example of rights for the wealthy class. In the end, you can only moderately test someone's ability and then hold them liable for damages in case of an accident. This is the best way.
[–]pongo000 1 point2 points3 points  (0 children)
There are an estimated 75K DGUs in the US each year ( and that estimate is on the low side). This far outnumbers firearms deaths in the US. More importantly, the number of lives saved via DGU (never reported of course) is not insignificant. You can read about a cross section of DGUs in /r/dgu.
That said, it's nice to know our Constitution condones armed insurrection against an abusive government if the need arises.
[–]testu_nagouchi 1 point2 points3 points  (0 children)
During the 2011 "troubles" throughout England I had a myriad of my friends in London and the boroughs lament that they couldn't 'borrow' my firearms to defend their life and liberty.
[–]guns_r_us 1 point2 points3 points  (1 child)
It's very simple for me when it comes to my guns:

FROM MY COLD DEAD HANDS.

[–]Jacks_Grin 1 point2 points3 points  (0 children)
Yeah, but he's asking why it's so important to take that stance
[–]jeroth 0 points1 point2 points  (1 child)
I will try to answer your questions from my perspective /u/EUhasnoguns
First off a comment on your name. I am sure you know, but many people in the EU do not know that there are millions of gun owners throughout Europe. :) The EU most definitely has guns and many of my EU friends are gun owners.
"I am thinking though most Americans think of guns for self defense though not for rebellion? I think rebellion is the last reason because it's so unlikely. " - Personally I believe most americans own guns for self defense and then hunting. Rebellion isnt a reason most people buy guns. It is just not out of the realm of possibility. Our history has much to do with our rebellious views, but also looking at other countries.
"Do you think civil war over guns is even reasonable?" - Reasonable: Depends on how you view firearms. When you take into account the many generations of our ancestors who died to protect this right, then yes many millions would find it reasonable.
"Is what the american poster wrote something shared among many americans? Or are they a minority?" - I would say yes. Many Americans do share his/her views.
"Has there been cases where gun ownership was bad? I mean, can you think of people that shouldn't own guns? Why?" - Gun ownership is neutral. It is neither good nor bad. Addressing are there people who shouldn't own guns. Sure there are plenty of evil people who shouldn't own guns. The difference between gun owners and anti-gun people is not that we believe all people should own guns. That actually pretty false. Most gun owners I know will agree that if you are not trained or comfortable with a gun. then you need to remedy that before buying one. Where we DO disagree is putting the government in charge of setting those rules.
[–]EUhasnoguns[S] 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
To be fair when your gov can randomly show up at your house and look through your stuff while making sure you have guns...I don't think EU guns and US gun laws can even be compared. We have the illusion we own them, but USA actually owns them.
This depresses me thinking about it...
[–]Kiltmanenator 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
A short answer wrt to resisting the govt is this:
I don't think I'll ever have to use it, but I can't know that I'm 100 years my descendants won't. It's why I don't want people I like having too much power in government; there's no knowing who is going to come after and abuse that power.
I don't think the point is to fully defeat the US military, or the police. The point is to make huge, disgusting violations of civil liberties by a tyrant very cost prohibitive. It doesn't have to be a full revolt, but if Muslim Americans are getting dragged off to interment camps under The Donald and they start shooting police rather than going quietly that's not something that can be ignored by the media.
No mass gun ownership, no ability to make your voice heard if it goes to shit.
And that's the thing, we can't know that in 300 years that it won't go to shit. The USA may not exist, but there will be still be people living here and I sincerely hope they can defend themselves from their government, or terrorists, or fascists, or ethnic/sectarian violence if it looks like the Balkans in the 90s.
[–]BitcoinPatriot 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
A gun can only do one of three things.
Rust, Fire, and/or Fail. Anything else done with a gun is caused by the user.
I own a gun for self-defense which MAY include rebellion depending on the government involved.
Do I think Civil War over guns is reasonable? I don't think the Civil War will be over guns but rather due to federal government overreach which caused the first Civil War and will be the cause of the second Civil War. And it, unfortunately, is developing as we speak. The 10th Amendment protects the rights of the states and the people but our current federal government is quickly destroying states rights and individual rights. For example, states being told by the federal government they cannot have a bathroom law that requires men to use the mens room and ladies to use the ladies room. Or the federal government telling a baker they must make a cake for a gay wedding or the federal government telling a black t-shirt maker they must make a t-shirt for the KKK.
Ironically the FIRST Civil War was caused by federal government overreach and it is much worse today than it was in the mid 1800's.
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