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[–]UnremittingLunacy 163ポイント164ポイント  (78子コメント)

This head-in-the-sand stuff when people find out how the hotdogs are made is really goddamn depressing. I know it's a real turd in the pool to hear that your fun comes at a shitty cost, but it's people like you that allow bad practices to continue.

[–]TheCrimsonCorndog 11ポイント12ポイント  (7子コメント)

What exactly did you do when you found out how hot dogs were made?

[–]UnremittingLunacy 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

I feel like you have a bias. :D

[–]Hanse00 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

Keep eating them.

[–]A_fellow 9ポイント10ポイント  (1子コメント)

not the original commentor, but I eat them. costco dogs are just too good.

[–]AMasonJar 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Can confirm, Costco hotdogs are the best.

[–]deityofchaos[🍰] 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

I know I'm not OP, but I haven't eaten one in over a decade now.

[–]Balootwo 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I must be out of the loop on this one. We've known for years that hot dogs are the lowest common denominator of processed meat products, has something come to light recently to make them even more disgusting?

[–]Branston_Pickle 22ポイント23ポイント  (6子コメント)

Listen, pull the covers off pretty much every product you've purchased this year, and you'll find bad practices in the supply chain. Everything - EVERYTHING - comes at a shitty cost.

Did you just open a lunch bag of baby carrots? When I was an engineer at a garbage bag factory we had a big problem with ladies packing bags in cartons getting carpel tunnel. Of course baby carrots are just regular sized carrots whittled down anyway. Love the free shipping from your Amazon Prime account? There's a crapload of underpaid people practically strip searched on their way in and out of the warehouse to bring you your product.

Software development has had an exploitative component for years. Hell, I spent much of my 20's donating hundreds of hours of my time putting in manufacturing software in companies.

I would bet most of the titles in your steam library have some history of "bad practices". People donating unpaid hours, hundreds of them. Suppliers not being paid. Poor air quality in the office.

So what's your alternative? Will you be the gamer equivalent of a Simpsons Level 5 vegan, only playing games developed by free-range uncaged organic developers that don't cast shadows?

Business practices in general suck in the 2000's for the little guy. I keep waiting for labour to re-organize and form some sort of collective to try to improve pay, working conditions, and paid overtime, but it hasn't happened yet.

In the meantime, don't force your guilt on the rest of us.

[–]TotesMessenger 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

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[–]TheShadowKick 5ポイント6ポイント  (1子コメント)

Just shrugging your shoulders and turning away is part of why companies can get away with these bad business practices.

[–]KorianHUN 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

This happened since the industrial revolution. Peasants had rights, but now many became workers, so no rights for them. No paid vacation, shit life quality, 12 hour child labour, etc. It did not fully went away, it just became a hidden thing like the useless jobs during socialism in eastern europe. Now people don't have 12 hours shifts, they have 8 + 4 to complete quotas. People get vacations, but suddenly the company doesn't need that many people after he takes vacations too often. But hey, the company generates more profit this way!

[–]PangurtheWhite 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

So this is the culture that exists in this country now? You get to not only brag about being a morally defunct person who doesn't care about the plights of others, but you get to do that while actively chastising people for having any sense of Good Samaritanism? What the fuck kind of evil world is this? How does the world benefit from this perspective in any capacity?

"Bad things are happening? Get over it!" - Person who should not be considered rational or safe to be around/raise children.

"Don't put your guilt on me?" How about don't put your blind disgusting perspective onto anyone else you selfish prick.

[–]kulkija 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

He is not wrong about the general moral bankruptcy of our business practices, or about the selective outrage people all seem to have with the products they use.

If they find out bad business practices have been used to bring them something for fun, people get pissed. If they find out bad business practices have been used to bring them something useful, they ignore it and keep driving their car to work every day. /u/Branston_Pickle seems to find that moral selectivity kind of repellent, and I don't blame him.

[–]sartorish 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Seriously, I hate this "not only do I not want to talk about this thing that makes me uncomfortable, no one else should be allowed to talk about it within earshot either" attitude. It's actually disgusting.

[–]GalacticCow 28ポイント29ポイント  (46子コメント)

Sometimes I don't care how hotdogs are made, I just want a goddamn hot dog. I know I'm a selfish douchebag in that sense, I don't care. I like hot dogs, I appreciate the effort that goes into making them, and I don't care how the fuck it gets from a pig to a hot dog. Frankly I don't want to know.

[–]AgentPaper0 16ポイント17ポイント  (3子コメント)

You'll care when you get food poisoning because the sausage maker doesn't wash his hands when packing the meat.

Or in this case, you'll care when the game starts to suffer because bad management drove away all the good developers and grinds those who stay into the ground such that quality starts to suffer.

[–]GalacticCow -1ポイント0ポイント  (2子コメント)

When KSP stops being a good game, I'll start complaining then. Fair enough?

[–]AgentPaper0 10ポイント11ポイント  (1子コメント)

I mean, at that point it's kinda too late, I think.

[–]GalacticCow -2ポイント-1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I mean, nothing left to do but play and enjoy at this point.

[–]A_fellow 9ポイント10ポイント  (3子コメント)

I respect your choice to be selfish. it has it's historical merits.

as a fellow Developer though, it's disgusting if this all turns out to be true. still a great game that i would recommend for game play alone, but sometimes that's just the way the wheel turns.

[–]Skalgrin -4ポイント-3ポイント  (2子コメント)

Both sides had to follow the initial contract. So both sides New the conditions ahead. Otherwise the either side not fulfilling the cotract can be suited r it can be used by the counterpart to brake the contract.

If I sign a cotract I see there a number, which then should arrive on my account every week or month. If I grew unsatisfied, well my employer has no obligation from that... And if employer smuggled into contract a way to allow him lower or cancel the payments, or to not reflect my increased effort into th payment ? He is bad, but he is also smarter than me and it is legal...

[–]A_fellow 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

yes, I'm aware. it's an industry (or really an intern) problem, not really unique to squad.

I say the same to people with student loans who say they were forced into it.

[–]Skalgrin 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

That is an excellent example (student loan)... Have an up vote!

[–]darvo110 29ポイント30ポイント  (9子コメント)

That's fine as long as you're also totally fine with the fact that it makes you a shitty person/member of society.

[–]vanishinglex 24ポイント25ポイント  (2子コメント)

I disagree with your judgemental tone of this person here.

Whilst I do agree that we should care about Squad development practises, the fact remains that the person you are replying to is doing something that EVERY SINGLE ONE of us does at some times.

There are so many horrible things going on, that we all have things we voluntarily choose to ignore, or even avoid learning about.

If we as humans put our full force of emotional care into every issue that faced any human anywhere, nobody would get anything done anymore because we would be too miserable to function.

As a consequence we all pick our priorities, and what /u/GalacticCow is doing is no different.

Sometimes all of us will wilfully choose not to care about things even when evidence they should care is put right in front of them.

I bet with enough knowledge about your life, we could find places where you do the exact same thing, or anyone else on reddit.

Rather than Judging a person as a "shitty person/member of society" which is an awful thing to call someone, please instead consider them as just someone who has different priorities to you.

Trying to hold people up to a standard of perfect empathy on every possible issue or they are to be labelled in ways that make them sound completely irredeemable/broken is not even remotely practical.

Agree to disagree with people and move on. Don't call them shitty people.

[–]framauro13Master Kerbalnaut 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

A-fucking-men. I mean, if you're posting on Reddit you're using a computer or phone. Most of those parts in the machine you're using were made over seas using questionable labor and business ethics.

You can probably take one thing that every person does every day and find a way to label them a "shitty member of society" because of it. Eat meat? Unethical animal treatment / farming practices. Drive a car? Using fossil fuels from gas or the electricity used to charge it. Buy new clothes? Probably made in a sweatshop somewhere else in the world. Use any electronics ever? Manufactured using cheap labor over seas.

If the worst thing Squad is doing is not paying market-average salaries, they're better than most companies.

[–]sartorish -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

There's a difference between accepting some shitty things in life and actively trying to get other people to shut up about them.

If people are talking about something that makes you uncomfortable, it's not their job to be quiet so you can live in your disturbance-free world. And if them talking about it is too objectionable for you to "voluntarily choose to ignore", then you need to rethink your position on that topic.

[–]Krexington_III 11ポイント12ポイント  (2子コメント)

I think you are right about this, and am 100% taking your side. I just want to remind you that if you found something worthy of a reply, you should probably upvote it because it added to the discussion. There are a bunch of people expressing very selfish opinions in this thread, and they're all being downvoted which makes me sad.

[–]GalacticCow 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

yo, thanks. this is why /r/kerbalspaceprogram is a chill place.

[–]generalgeorge95 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

It does, but we are all shitty people.. Do you think the people who assembled your electronics in Chinese factories have good working conditions and good pay? Or your clothes, or if you're in the US, the seasonal migrants that pick and process your food...

[–]jangoknight7 12ポイント13ポイント  (1子コメント)

I'm a selfish douchebag

There, I shortened your comment for you

[–]Landarin 16ポイント17ポイント  (24子コメント)

Did you just...try to justify willful ignorance?

Because that's not ok. You have to accept that no matter if you're buying a hot dog or a video game, you're exercising a big responsibility. Telling people you don't care about pigs / slaughterhouse workers / interns is inconsiderate and irresponsible.

I know I'm a selfish douchebag in that sense, I don't care.

I think we should try to minimize the times we're forced to admit to being selfish douchebags.

[–]niceville 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

You'll starve to death if you only try to eat food that isn't tainted by injustice somewhere in its supply chain.

[–]GalacticCow 19ポイント20ポイント  (18子コメント)

if you're buying a hot dot or a video game, you have a big responsibility

I reserve the right to not give a shit about how the hot dog is made, as long as the hot dog is tasty.

It's that simple. Stop trying to put yourself on a pedestal just because you have an interest in something that I don't.

[–]Landarin 24ポイント25ポイント  (17子コメント)

Since when is ignorance a right? Part of being an adult is being informed and recognizing that your actions have consequences. If you can't hold yourself accountable, you're being awfully nearsighted.

Stop trying to put yourself on a pedestal just because you have an interest in something I don't.

So let me get this straight, I'm the bad person because I'm trying to be empathetic, and you're the good person because you don't care?

[–]vanishinglex 9ポイント10ポイント  (1子コメント)

I promise there are things you are wilfully ignorant/forcibly uncaring of as well. 100% empathy is impossible to maintain and impractical. It is actually dangerous to try and force it on people because you end up not only likely becoming a huge hypocrite, but it also leads to moral sanctimony

[–]blagojevich06 -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

That's fine, but wilful ignorance and borderline pride is so much worse.

[–]Peacehamster 14ポイント15ポイント  (2子コメント)

Part of being an adult is being informed and recognizing that your actions have consequences.

And another part is making your own moral decisions. It's as much their right not to want any part in the matter as it is yours to criticize that position.

[–]blagojevich06 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

And that's all we're doing. Criticising the hell out of it.

[–]Every_Geth 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Sure, he's allowed to not give a shit, but what is and isn't within your rights is a legal question, not a moral one. It's his right to not give a shit about the welfare of others, but it still makes him a selfish gaping asshole.

[–]A_fellow 8ポイント9ポイント  (0子コメント)

no, he's saying you're both people and there is no high ground. ethics and morals will never be universal.

[–]Skalgrin 8ポイント9ポイント  (2子コメント)

Since I can have an opinion of my own. I like meat, and I approve slaughterhouses. As long as somebody has opposite thoughts - I respect it, until that persons decides to torn down slaughterhouses and force me to eat soya. Why? I do not force him to eat burger...

Does it mean I hate animals? No way. I love them, but some of them will end on my plate... So what?

And world is not black and white. Those poor cows and pigs would never be born, if not for the eating. I have no problem to buy a product made by a child labour, as long as it is qualitatively perfect. Other guy managed to force the manufacturer to stop child labour.

Who is better? Those children will earn no money and will starve, possibly to death... But am I better? Those kids will never know childhood of they continue 're same labour and many of them will consequently end in drugs and alcohol.

To be aware of consequencies is part of being adult, but it is double edged. Just face it, you drive a car, use a cellphone, computer, you eat. Everything of that met an abuse somewhere in the process of creation. Gold in electronics was mined by poor sick fellas in Africa, oil in your car polluted sea during mining. Because of that Palm oil in majority in your food, rain forests were leveled and kids laboured the harvest. It is bad to ignore it completely, but its good to learn to live by...

[–]TwoStickZach -3ポイント-2ポイント  (1子コメント)

The fact that you knowingly spend money on products with child labor is sickening. You must understand it allows the cycle to continue. Your dollar is a vote. If cost is more important to you than ethics, businesses will listen. If ethics are more important than dollars, businesses will also listen. Make informed buying decisions, you can help bring dignity to a worker's life by supporting companies that properly compensate.

[–]Skalgrin 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Well on the other hand they earn the money they need. As I wrote I myself an unsure which solution is better.

In my eyes only adopting those children into family which lived in conditions not requiring hold labour to earn the livig money would solve the issue. Not buying it can have similarly bad result in starving and even possibly dying kids on streets.

[–]IAmTotallyNotSatan 8ポイント9ポイント  (5子コメント)

tl;dr: He doesn't care about the ethics. This is a video game, and he wants to play the video game without having to discuss politics.

[–]blagojevich06 -2ポイント-1ポイント  (3子コメント)

Not caring about ethics is a very dangerous way to think. Where do you draw the line with that?

[–]IAmTotallyNotSatan 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

I'm not saying I agree with him. But, you can simultaneously care about ethics while playing the game. It's a fun game. What Squad did and does is wrong, but that doesn't change the fact that he wants to play KSP without having to discuss the real world. Many people play video games to GET AWAY from the real world, and this brings them back into it.

[–]blagojevich06 -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'll reserve my sympathy for the underpaid workers, not the people who are upset that they have to hear about them.

[–]TwoStickZach -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

Dont click on the ethics threads? Easy to avoid. Guy just wants to guy.

[–]GalacticCow 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

Since when is ignorance a right?

Since human beings first developed free will

[–]8oD 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

Are you saying you don't have KSP? If you do have it, you are a giant hypocrite. If you don't, why are you here commenting on a somewhat snarky picture thread?

[–]CrowdScene 0ポイント1ポイント  (3子コメント)

Do you wear clothes? Use electronics? Eat food? Chances are the employees that make each of those things possible are working under even worse conditions than what has been described by these former Squad employees yet I've yet to hear someone calling for a boycott on using a computer. It's impossible to get upset at every injustice in the world and in the grand scheme of things the working conditions these former employees describe doesn't sound that different from every other game developer.

[–]bendvisMaster Kerbalnaut 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

So, since it's impossible to get upset at every injustice in the world, we should not get upset at any? That's horrible logic.

[–]CrowdScene 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I honestly don't see anything worth getting upset over with regards to Squad. It sounds like working at any game studio and people are looking for something to be outraged over. There are a lot of worse things they could try to fix so I find it odd that this is the thing they've decided to direct their hate at.

[–]Markemp -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

You can be upset and still play KSP or eat a hot dog.

[–]majesticsteed 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Sometimes I don't care how hotdogs are made, I just want a got-dang hot dog.

Hank hill, for your viewing pleasures.

[–]KrabbHD 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

So... How are hot dogs made?

[–]KnightsFan 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

but it's people like you that allow bad practices to continue.

Not really, if everybody boycotted the game at this point, they've already made their cash and they won't care.

What really works is encouraging and supporting the employees when they Organize and form a coalition that can negotiate with the employer on their own terms. But most players are in the US and terms like organize union and solidarity tend to turn everyone into McCarthy.

[–]laziestbarnacle 1ポイント2ポイント  (7子コメント)

Not trying to be rude, but when you say "people like you", do you mean that you yourself are actively working to rectify game studios' business models?

[–]INTERNET_RETARDATION 11ポイント12ポイント  (6子コメント)

He didn't say that, he's someone who will acknowledge the problem, OP is someone who ignores it.

[–]laziestbarnacle 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

You're right, there probably is a difference given that sane companies care about what is said about them on the Internet, but if one cares about an issue, one should consider that there are better ways to bring people on board than essentially yelling at them.

[–]Kavis -4ポイント-3ポイント  (4子コメント)

Acknowledging the problem is so much better than the alternatives, like not acknowledging the problem, or working on the problem.

[–]INTERNET_RETARDATION 1ポイント2ポイント  (3子コメント)

Of course working on the problem is even better than acknowledging it, but how the fuck am I supposed to change how a private company in Mexico operates?

And how is not acknowledging a problem just as good or better than acknowledging a problem? Do you want history to repeat itself?

[–]Kavis -1ポイント0ポイント  (2子コメント)

Of course working on the problem is even better than acknowledging it, but how the fuck am I supposed to change how a private company in Mexico operates?

I dunno. How about literally anything more than "whoa now, who said anything about doing things? I'm acknowledging the problem!"

Just for starters.

[–]INTERNET_RETARDATION -1ポイント0ポイント  (1子コメント)

I don't see what you mean. Could you give an example? Do you mean for example boycotting Squad?

[–]Kavis 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

God, you're thick. Go reread your first post again.