292
293

RuPaul spilling some T about Drag! (twitter.com)

harleyquinn18Bob & Kim が 投稿

全 184 件のコメント
並べ替え:
ベスト
トップ新着論争中古い順Q&A

[–]SchoolBoyRealness 115ポイント116ポイント  (130子コメント)

Feminism is split on drag. I know bell hooks, in particular, is not a fan. She sees it as a just another example of male privilege under patriarchy. But if patriarchy is hatred of women and all things feminine, wouldn't men CHOOSING to embody female identity be an ultimate rebuke of it?

[–]praeistBob the Drag Queen 62ポイント63ポイント  (5子コメント)

bell hooks essays on drag are really interesting (Is Paris Burning? is perhaps the best), but I always feel the way she views drag is exceptionally skewed. Her perspective on drag seems to be coming far more from heterosexual men portraying women, which she sees as derogatory (and on the whole if you look at modern examples I can't help but agree with her). Unfortunately she doesn't see the distinction between heterosexual men dressing up as women and queer drag (which one could argue, and I totally think, is a completely different ballgame, and one of the only LGBTQIA+ grown art forms).

There's a really interesting book on the emergence of drag by Esther Newton called Mother Camp: Female Impersonators in America which I really recommend. It speaks to a lot of things, but I think one of the greatest is how drag doesn't come from a place of privilege that has men mocking women, but is actually used as a safe space for queer men. (I also think its important to note that though the conversation is often about drag queens, drag kings have been around just as long and are also used in the same way by queer women). Of course drag could be seen as a mixture of male privilege and queer oppression, but in terms of power dynamics I do think the latter comes into play far more.

Edit: Sorry got excited but also I think we need to remember that the theory of gender as a construct came out way after drag emerged as a subculture (Gender Trouble was 1990, although ideas of this were already around, perhaps in novels such as Herland by Charlotte Perkins Gilman). So while we can argue drag is mocking the idea of the construct of gender I think that's perhaps not true of the roots of drag, but perhaps is now?

[–]Tableatgreen 13ポイント14ポイント  (0子コメント)

I feel like many of these men who dress up, wear makeup, performing are doing it for themselves as a creative outlet to let part of them shine. You only mock when your intention is to mock. It's almost close minded to think men should stick to only being men, whatever that is because looking feminine is only for women. It just doesn't make sense.

[–]enjeyarrLaila McQueen 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Interesting point about Butler, but I'd argue that gender as construct didn't need to be articulated by Butler to impact drags origins. She even cites drag queens as evidence for her argument, that they purposefully play with the arbitrariness of gendered appearance. I think the destabilization of identities and the line between trans and drag was sometimes even more blurred before (ironically?) 90s RuPaul and growth of trans and gay movements, at least in some groups like in Paris is Burning.

[–]soignees 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Venus Xtravaganza in Paris is Burning, his/her idea of what a woman is made me sad:

A woman, in the suburbs, a regular woman, if you want your husband to buy a washer and dryer set, I'm sure she'd have to go to bed with him, to give him something he wants, to get what she wants. So, in the long run, it all ends up the same way.

It made me doubly sad in the sense that that's what they've assumed a woman is/role in life, and is frankly all the life Venus had known at that point, since prostitution was literally their bread and butter.

[–]MissSteakBob the Drag Queen 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I based my whole seminary about drag culture on Newton's book, it is really great

[–]4frodite 34ポイント35ポイント  (1子コメント)

I have thought about this issue too since I am a feminist as well, but it is pretty simple. Bad drag parodies women, good drag parodies gender roles. Like 97.8% of Rpdr is the latter. The show of course is sometimes problematic like everything in pop culture but Rpdr has definitely its goods sides too, like making LGBT community and different gender identities et cetera visible in media.

[–]thestooshienot that young, just ignorant -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

Female here.

Nail. On. Head.

[–]blogginglifeNaomi Smalls 36ポイント37ポイント  (2子コメント)

for me it becomes problematic when people (even some users of this sub) are pointedly against women dressing in drag. If drag is a celebration of femininity--a trait/attitude/way of being that has been oppressed, demonized, and silenced historically--then women have to be allowed to partake in it as well. We are celebrating that not all of us can fit into a masculine, heteronormative society by centering traits that are often frowned upon, in both men and women.

When drag becomes offensive to me (and yes, it does sometimes even though I am a huge fan of RPDR and all things drag) is when it becomes a bunch of cute, skinny white boys slapping on makeup, adopting a "stupid" persona, and calling each other "cunts" (see Skim's audition tape--not necessarily offensive but I think that young, attractive queens like her should definitely be conscience about where they are mocking or celebrating women). That's not a celebration of femininity, it is a mockery of it that feeds into larger oppressive systems, ironic or not. Queens should be conscious about why so many of them center "stupidity" in their drag persona, and what about this speaks to mainstream ideas of women and femininity just bleeding over into the drag world.

[–]ultradav24 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

21st century drag is a cultural artifact of the gay experience above all other things, that's why people are funny about it. And I know there are gay women (and many who do drag, shout out to Crimson Kitty), but it hasn't historically been their thing. Members of oppressed subcultures are protective of their traditions and culture, and so outsiders need to be sensitive to that. Doesn't mean they can't partake, but also don't be surprised if it's met with skepticism and a little bit of anxiety.

[–]Tableatgreen -2ポイント-1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Maybe she is celebrating a part of herself which is a "stupid" persona and how she sees herself, not other women.

[–]DarcyMcCarbombBob the Drag Queen 65ポイント66ポイント  (20子コメント)

To expand, I think the criticism of male privilege being at play in drag involves the idea that drag queens are gay men who are playing with womanhood, but at the end of the day can still take off all the traditionally-feminine trappings and enjoy their lives as men with all the benefits that entails.

THIS IS NOT how I personally feel about it, I'm just explaining why some people don't dig it.

[–]llokanoBob the Drag Queen 28ポイント29ポイント  (19子コメント)

enjoy their lives as gay men... there is a difference.

[–]dcmldcmlCynthia Lee Fontaine 30ポイント31ポイント  (16子コメント)

That said, gay men do still benefit from male privilege.

[–]marbledrewBob the Drag Queen 5ポイント6ポイント  (14子コメント)

I would say masculine gay men benefit from male privilege, but I'm not sure that it extends to including the rest of us, not really.

[–]dcmldcmlCynthia Lee Fontaine 37ポイント38ポイント  (3子コメント)

Male privilege isn't any sort of privilege, really. The word privilege is kind of misleading. It's more a matter of there being a subset of discrimination that we never have to worry about experiencing due to our being male. There's discrimination a woman will face in her life that a man (even an effeminate gay man) will never have to face. When an effeminate gay man experiences discrimination, it's due to his sexuality, not because of his gender. It's homophobia, not sexism. It's a separate issue. That said, the two are pretty linked (i.e. when the effeminate gay man is discriminated against, it's due to him being perceived as "like a woman" which is a Bad Thing).

[–]EltoshenKim Chi 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

I see the reasoning here, but isn't discrimination also based on perception? For example, if somebody discriminates against a drag queen under the assumption that they're a woman, in or out of drag, even if they are biologically 'male', would they still have male privilege in that moment? I know a lot of drag queens find that they receive cat calls even outside of drag just based on their mannerisms/voice/appearance despite the fact that certain anti-drag feminists believe drag queens can just simply take off their wig/makeup and 'pass'. For many drag queens, it's not just a gig, it's their lives.

[–]dcmldcmlCynthia Lee Fontaine 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

In all honesty I don't really have good answers to your questions. I'm not educated enough on the social sciences and histories of gender and of discrimination to break things down that far. My gut response though would be to say no, in that moment they don't have male privilege, because they're not being perceived as men. They're experiencing that discrimination I mentioned as being exclusive to women because the discriminator views their target as being female.

I'm not sure on the rest of it. I still don't think it's fair to say male privilege doesn't apply to effeminate gay men as a blanket statement (especially given that male privilege exists as much more than just not receiving cat-calls), but drag makes it less clear. Drag messes with what we know and think about gender, and throws off everything we think we've figured out about it. Which, funnily enough, was the point of Ru's tweet.

[–]EltoshenKim Chi 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

That was pretty much what I was thinking. The privilege that comes with gender can be blurry depending on who you're interacting with, so while effeminate gay men are not always immune from being privileged, there are moments where they are not perceived as 'real men' and thus not afforded that same privilege.

[–]okarrr#TeamBibimBob 9ポイント10ポイント  (3子コメント)

Even feminine gay men don't have to deal with a)accidentally getting pregnant b)dealing with periods c)getting sexually catcalled in the streets (though feminine gay men do experience lots of street harassment) d) childhood internalization of the devaluation of women e) getting left with a child etc.

[–]ultradav24 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

Okay, and most women (shout out to my lesbians) enjoy the benefits of being heterosexual. It's not a contest.

[–]okarrr#TeamBibimBob 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

No one said it was. It's not about who has more privilege. It's about acknowledging what you have and what others lack. Being in a wheel chair doesn't mean you can be a dick to black people. Being black doesn't mean you can be a dick to trans people. Learning where people are coming from and what they need and how they experience life is an important asset in a multicultural world

[–]gemininatureKI-KI-KI, MAW-MAWMA 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

And straight women don't have to deal with a) never being able to openly have a relationship until after high school, leading to all sorts of emotionally stunted development b) the constant feeling of living a lie and fear of coming out c) the internalized homophobia and self-loathing that causes us to even push EACH OTHER away at times, etc etc.

[–]iguanidaeDax ExclamationPoint 14ポイント15ポイント  (5子コメント)

It absolutely does. Men are respected far more than women in day-to-day life and don't have to deal with the scrutiny and expectations of being feminine.

[–]EltoshenKim Chi -3ポイント-2ポイント  (4子コメント)

This logic is way too simple-minded. I'm sorry, but unless you're in the fashion industry, feminine gay men do not get nearly the same respect that you seem to claim they do, and face just as much scrutiny for daring to showcase any sort of femininity because it's 'not normal'. I'm not going to play oppression olympics, but to act like all men conform to the same standards of masculinity/femininity and are treated the same regardless is plain ignorant.

[–]iguanidaeDax ExclamationPoint 5ポイント6ポイント  (3子コメント)

There are basic privileges men have that women do not. The fact that you don't have to think about the disadvantages women have simply by being women is precisely why it's called privilege.

[–]ultradav24 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

And there are basic privileges that heterosexual women (if we're talking about the entire female population then the majority are straight) enjoy that gay men can never enjoy or even have to think about.

[–]EltoshenKim Chi 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

You've defined what privilege is, but what's the point you're trying to make here? Or are we not discussing the parent thread that a drag queen can just take off their drag and continue living life as a [closeted] man (because lbr that's what they really mean).

[–]ultradav24 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

And most women benefit from heterosexual privilege...

[–]DarcyMcCarbombBob the Drag Queen 6ポイント7ポイント  (1子コメント)

I'm fully aware. As I said, this isn't my view, I was just explaining what I've heard from the people who do feel this way.

[–]llokanoBob the Drag Queen 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

I got it, I was just saying what I thought on the matter, not arguing with you.

[–]Protanope 41ポイント42ポイント  (89子コメント)

I can somewhat understand. Some people find words like "bitch" and "slut" to be very offensive and derogatory towards women but drag culture definitely plays up on that kind of language. It doesn't personally bother me, but I could get that if as a woman, you were called by these slurs by men and then heard men using them while in drag that it would be off putting.

[–][deleted] 76ポイント77ポイント  (57子コメント)

THIS completely. I'm a woman and I LOVE drag but hearing the word "cunt" thrown around so carelessly is difficult sometimes. It's a really cutting word, it would be like a group of straight women throwing around the word "faggot." I understand drag as a criticism of gender which is why I enjoy but there is a line and it does get crossed at times.

[–][deleted] 40ポイント41ポイント  (1子コメント)

It's incredible that a bunch of drag fans can be so fucking obtuse about the use of a slur. I didn't tell anyone to stop using it. All I said was that as a woman, it's a REALLY difficult word to hear out of a mans mouth as I'm sure faggot is a really difficult word to hear out of a straight persons mouth. Y'all can chill now.

[–]whowilleverknowI Look Fuckin Cool -3ポイント-2ポイント  (0子コメント)

You can say faggot all you want, I don't give a shit. Either way, I'm still gonna call cunty people cunts.

[–]Protanope 38ポイント39ポイント  (20子コメント)

Thanks for sharing. I think it's important that gay men remember that they have male privilege because it's easy to forget. I don't think anyone is going around clamoring for the LGBT community to constantly be PC but empathy goes a long way.

[–][deleted] 20ポイント21ポイント  (13子コメント)

Yeah as evidenced in all the angry replies I've received, gay me don't seem to understand their male privilege. I had no idea saying that cunt is an offensive word towards women would be such a controversial statement....

[–]WetChickenNugget 12ポイント13ポイント  (1子コメント)

I think maybe there's a cultural barrier that's confusing people. In the U.K/Australia 'Cunt' isn't a gendered insult and is used quite casually.

[–]berlin_chair_<Why Es Ell> 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

I was about to say this, and also that it's also used as a compliment aka "Sick Cunt, Mad Cunt ect" to mean "A generally awesome, generous and cool person"

[–][deleted] 7ポイント8ポイント  (1子コメント)

And I'm certainly not calling for the drag community to stop using the word. I was really just trying to share my thoughts on it but apparently that hasn't gone over well....

[–]GaySouthernAccentBob the Drag Queen 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I think it's just awkward when women try and police drag. I really do mean this in the nicest way possible, but this isn't about you.

[–]theprostituteAlways & Forever, Alyssa Edwards 8ポイント9ポイント  (3子コメント)

I'm a woman

Ditto, and I literally can't say it fast enough. Over nothing even sometimes. But, I can certainly say, when a man tries to snatch my wig, and I'm the first one to throw it out there, and will INSTANTLY call any man a cunt, they don't know wtf to do with it (like when they try to drag you in traffic) and it's the funniest fucking thing, cause it's like, bitch you thought that word was gonna be the atom bomb that's gonna bother me? Fuck no, fuck you. not you

[–]idontwanton 6ポイント7ポイント  (1子コメント)

Another female here, and I wish cunt wasn't such a big deal in the US. It's one of my favorite words, but I have to use it so sparingly or else someone turns into a cunt about it.

[–][deleted] 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

Haha hey girl, whatever works for you. More power to ya

[–]FuerlynBob the Drag Queen 4ポイント5ポイント  (6子コメント)

How would it be the same? Straight women don't get called faggot, but gay men do get called cunts/cuntboys etc.

[–][deleted] 13ポイント14ポイント  (5子コメント)

I'll bite in the hopes that you actually want a discussion and don't just want to yell at me. A gay man getting called a cunt would be an attack on the fact that they are feminine. So this is basically a double whammy for effeminate gay men and woman because being feminine is "bad." It's basically like the use of tranny, yes gay men and drag queens both get called that but the group it's intended for is transgender people. Cunt is intended for women, so basically calling a gay man a cunt would be insulting him for being like a woman.

[–]FuerlynBob the Drag Queen 8ポイント9ポイント  (4子コメント)

That first sentence is really unnecessary. You can also claim that "cunt is intended for women", but it's clearly not "intended for women" so much as intended to attack and put things down that are feminine, as you yourself admitted. It's also different than "tranny", because that started out as being short for "transvestite", not "transgender", so no, it is not "intended" for transgender people. Now yes, it is often now used to describe trans* people, but that doesn't make it "intended" for them. It's "intended" to be used towards whoever it's used towards, because language is fluid.

I don't really understand how you seem to think that it's not okay for a minority group to reclaim words that are used to oppress them. Like, I just don't understand how it's different for you because you have a vagina. I don't get mad at lesbians for using the word faggot even though it's usually and was originally used to describe mostly gay men.

Edit: Also, I understand that you feel this way, and I'm not trying to take that away from you, say that you're wrong, or attack you in any way. I just don't personally agree with your opinion, or at least what I'm getting from it through the way it's worded. To me, I don't want a (presumably heterosexual, but really any) woman telling me that I can't turn a word that's used to try and hurt and oppress me around into something positive and use it to mock the people that would want to hurt/oppress me, ESPECIALLY when I'm sorry, but I know in my heart of hearts I do and will get more shit every day for being a very effeminate gay man than a normal woman ever will. To me that just really grinds my gears.

[–][deleted] 2ポイント3ポイント  (3子コメント)

the thing is, I never said not to use the word cunt. I don't care what words drag queens and gay men use, I really don't. All I said originally was that it's a hard word to hear. I just wanted the gay men here to understand that it is comparable to the word faggot for them. After everyone ripping me apart, I kind of felt the need to remind everyone that I'm here for a discussion so sorry if that first sentence offended you.......

[–]FuerlynBob the Drag Queen 3ポイント4ポイント  (2子コメント)

You replied just as I was making my edit. I wasn't trying to attack you, and I wasn't trying to make you out to be the bad guy. The first sentence did upset me because I did clearly want to hear more from your perspective since I asked you a question in a non-confrontational way, and then it felt like you were trying to set me up to be the "bad guy", so to speak. And I know that you never specifically outright said that drag queens shouldn't use the word cunt, but you said it's like straight women using the word faggot, and they should NOT be using the word faggot, so it would follow that drag queens/gay men shouldn't be using the word cunt.

[–][deleted] 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

I'm bisexual, by the way, not that it's really matter of importance in this discussion. It wasn't a perfect comparison but I meant it more for the feeling it portrays in the listening party. In my experience, I've never heard of a gay man being called a cunt until now and I'm wondering if that's regional? I would argue that its definitely used much more often towards women which I thought was obvious but that doesn't seem to be the case from what I'm hearing from multiple replies. I do think it's more female-centric and for that reason i don't see why gay men need to claim it but hey, I'm cool as long as they aren't "claiming" it and then throwing it back at women. Anyway, I can feel the emotion from your edit now and I do understand where you're coming from with all this. I guess my biggest takeaway is that drag isn't above criticism and while gay men face struggles, so do women and I think both sides could stand to be more empathic towards one another.

[–]GaySouthernAccentBob the Drag Queen -3ポイント-2ポイント  (0子コメント)

In my experience, I've never heard of a gay man being called a cunt until now and I'm wondering if that's regional?

So from your experience as a woman, you've never experienced what it's like for a gay man... hmmm, I do believe their is a word for that. For someone who harped so hard about privilege it's kinda sad when you can't recognize it in yourself. And then to downplay it as rare and regional. The dissonance, it burns.

[–]llokanoBob the Drag Queen 0ポイント1ポイント  (5子コメント)

It's just not at all the same thing.

[–][deleted] 18ポイント19ポイント  (4子コメント)

Cunt is an extremely offensive word and oftentimes the last word a woman heard before some misogynistic asshole beats her. Don't try to speak over women on a woman's issue. I would never tell you how to feel about the word "faggot" (assuming you're a gay man)

[–]SchoolBoyRealness 18ポイント19ポイント  (28子コメント)

Oh, absolutely. It's definitely not as cut and dry as Ru is making it seem, but then Ru is indifferent to actual blackface, so I dunno. Ru thinks identity driven movements are dangerous.

[–]Protanope 37ポイント38ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yeah for sure. I really loved Kim Chi this season for calling out the whole "no fats, no fems, no Asians" thing because gays have been fighting for decades just to be seen and heard and be treated as equal, yet a lot of the younger kids nowadays don't get that and practice discrimination in our own community. As a person of color, I definitely see racism in the LGBT community and I mean, who hasn't heard another gay guy say that he's "masc only"?

When you see that kind of thing I can understand how some may think that drag is about gender appropriation, but most drag queens care about actual issues women face and are pro-equality all around. There will always be some bad seeds in any group but with drag queens, I do think the good outshines the bad.

[–]EliakimEliakim 8ポイント9ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yeah, I like Ru's dislike of identity movements. I personally kind of detest the idea of identity and identifying in the current form that has permeated LGBT culture, because I just think people need to get out of their damn heads and start doing instead of being.

[–]getthelumpout 12ポイント13ポイント  (25子コメント)

Ru is also in his mid-50s and we have to remember that, trailblazer though he may be, in some situations he doesn't always necessarily espouse the same views that younger generations seem to be heading toward

[–]cadastreThorgy Thor 34ポイント35ポイント  (20子コメント)

The views younger generations are headed toward might not necessarily be the best ones though.

[–]getthelumpout 28ポイント29ポイント  (18子コメント)

I don't know man. Historically, the younger generations tend to generally be on the right side of history/move toward progress

(in terms of social progress, at least)

War protests, gay rights, feminism, racial equality, wealth inequality--a lot of these causes are usually adopted and pushed forward by each new generation

[–]okarrr#TeamBibimBob 5ポイント6ポイント  (4子コメント)

The younger side tends to be on the most recent side, not necessarily the right side. For instance there is more anti-muslim rhetoric today then there was in the 70s. We are also more fiscally conservative than we were in the 40's and there's more wealth inequality. There's more censorship in film now than there was in the 60's. To see social things as a constant progression forward is a really dangerous oversimplification. Things now aren't necessarily better, they are just different. Better for some people, worse for others.

[–]getthelumpout -1ポイント0ポイント  (3子コメント)

Just to address some of your points:

In a post-9/11 world there is certainly more anti-Muslim rhetoric than a few decades ago, though I would almost certainly argue that younger people are more inclined to be the ones arguing against anti-Muslim hatred and Islamophobia.

I would definitely not say there is more censorship in film now than in the 60s. What is standard Hollywood fare would be almost unheard of in wide releases in the 60s, not to mention we have tons of independent markets and film festivals that cater to all kind of subjects that would have been taboo in the 60s. The porn industry is also alive and booming nowadays.

There is definitely greater wealth inequality, but it is younger people (the kind of people who carried out Occupy and who rally behind Bernie) that consider it a pressing issue (perhaps the most pressing issue) of our time.

I perhaps overstated in that it is a constant progression forward, and I don't mean that older generations are not progressive, but I stand by my statement that younger generations each tend to be more (socially) liberal/progressive than the generations before them.

[–]okarrr#TeamBibimBob 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

What I'm saying is that the 'progressive forward movement' thing doesn't really work as a framework. Theres a lot of times that the whole country regressed with a lot of issues. For instance, you can look at slavery. Literacy laws, miscegination laws, movement restrictions etc. were at their strictest towards the end of slavery. Parts of reconstruction was arguably more damaging towards a lot of blacks than slavery itself was with the Ku Klux Klan killing thousands of black people. And the KKK actually peaked in the 1910's, almost 50 years after slavery ended. Jim crow got progressively worse as time went on until the late 50's early to mid 60's. And there are far more people enslaved across the world (percentage wise) today than there were at the height of American slavery. Workers rights and the role of Unions and blue collar labor is undeniably worse than it was in the mid 20th century as blue collar industries fell apart in the late 70's. Freedom as a concept and a framework, ebs and flows and develops and changes, but the 'straight line' mentality is a fiction that allows people to think "oh things will naturally get better over time" when in reality things only get better when people actively stand up against their oppressors. I mean, during the turn of the 20th century, people thought industrialization would bring about a new era of Utopia and humanitarian goodwill... and then the Holocaust. And then Cambodia. And then Rawanda. And then Southern Sudan. And then...? Pollution is worse than it's ever been. There are more sweat shops. More drones and Weapons of Mass Destruction. More government surveillance. More people in prison. More American military bases in foreign countries. The narrative of 'things get better' is constructed, and it's a good narrative in a lot of ways, but it's only true if you focus on certain things and ignore others.

[–]getthelumpout 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

allows people to think "oh things will naturally get better over time" when in reality things only get better when people actively stand up against their oppressors.

I absolutely agree with this, I'm not saying that's not true. I never said things get magically better, what I'm saying (or trying to say) is that each generation tends to lay the groundwork for the next generation to pick up the mantle and continue the progressive fight.

I also made points of saying I was speaking in both an American and social context in terms of liberalism and progressivism.

[–]Gameofthorns8Booboooo 4ポイント5ポイント  (12子コメント)

And Ru's generation were also doing those things. Each generation though, there seems to be a different view and it sometimes goes back and forth.

[–]getthelumpout 7ポイント8ポイント  (9子コメント)

Of course they were. What I'm saying is, each generation takes the progress a bit further.

[–]Gameofthorns8Booboooo 1ポイント2ポイント  (8子コメント)

I also meant that views change as well and what was seen as progressive years ago, new generation of kids see it as unprogressive (also due to they want to farther themselves from their parents) and it can go full circle back to the newer generation thinking it is progressive again. These ideas of progressive always change, not a straight line but more of a full circle.

[–]getthelumpout 1ポイント2ポイント  (7子コメント)

Can you give me an example? In general, I feel like the progression seems to continue in a straight line.

[–]SharnaRanwan 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

Yes but he was the "younger generation" at that time.

[–]Gameofthorns8Booboooo 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Which is what I meant.

[–]lindsey-naegleAcid Henny 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Preach

[–]SchoolBoyRealness 4ポイント5ポイント  (3子コメント)

Well, just look at how young women were not here for Madeline Albright's "women who don't help other women" quote. 20 years ago it was a rallying cry, of sorts. Young women today were like what? No.

[–]getthelumpout 10ポイント11ポイント  (2子コメント)

Exactly. Times change, and with it, definitions of social progress.

And I don't think younger women are against that idea in general, it's more the idea that Albright was using it to rationalize why women needed to vote for Hillary Clinton, and the younger generation was like--umm, no, I'm going to vote for whom I please and I don't appreciate being told that i'm going to hell for doing so, haha.

[–]llokanoBob the Drag Queen 5ポイント6ポイント  (1子コメント)

A woman is not necceserli (i cannot be bothered with spelling rite now) always gonna be the best candidate for women.

[–]tumblrthrowawaysAcid Betty 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

This is really true, and not enough people realise that. Margaret Thatcher wasn't good for women living under her. She froze child benefit, she attacked working mothers (despite being one - but she was okay because she had a rich husband), she refused to promote all but one of her female ministers.

Did she use her femininity throughout her campaigning? She fucking well did. Then she pulled the ladder up as soon as she'd got to the top so no women could follow her. As a result young women turned away from her party in droves.

[–]DarcyMcCarbombBob the Drag Queen 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'll add "fishy" to that list.

[–]pokeholest 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

And fish.

[–]sytfosaurus 24ポイント25ポイント  (6子コメント)

I think another thing that's kind of surreal about drag is that it capitalizes on features of femininity that generally hold women back. I can see how people might develop some sort of resentment when female impersonators are taken more seriously than women themselves. Drag comedians, for example, can become wildly successful, but even the most famous women comics struggle to be seen. That being said, Drag Race been really great about giving credit to the women who have contributed to drag in one way or another.

[–]FuerlynBob the Drag Queen 7ポイント8ポイント  (3子コメント)

I mean, there's not really any mainstream drag comics unless you count stuff like Dame Edna and Madea, but there's still a lot more successful female comedians than drag comedians. Drag is still very niche.

[–]yourgrandmasteaparty 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

Eddie Izzard?

[–]FuerlynBob the Drag Queen 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Eddie Izzard isn't a drag queen. A few days ago he even refereed to himself as a drag queen, and I think even a few days ago he refereed to himself as transgender.

[–]yourgrandmasteaparty 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I suppose. I was just thinking about Dress to Kill - his most famous, successful and awarded stand-up - was done in a dress and make-up.

[–]atomickat03Bob the Drag Queen 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

in what world are drag queens taken more seriously than straight, white women comics?

[–]Zhen_JiNaomi Smalls 67ポイント68ポイント  (21子コメント)

Wait. There's people who think men do drag to mock women? What the fuck..

[–]harleyquinn18Bob & Kim[S] 37ポイント38ポイント  (3子コメント)

Yeah, some women take issue with it. To me it's always been mocking the concept of gender and the expectations that people have for women.

[–]Protanope 28ポイント29ポイント  (2子コメント)

I love this part of drag, which is what sometimes bothers me about the critiques on certain queens. Like, Bob ain't there to be a look queen. Bob is there to upset the status quo and make fun of the situation. Kim Chi ain't there to be a runway model or a dancer. She's there to show that fashion can subvert stereotypes and be gorgeous regardless of gender.

When people come for them for shit like that I can't help but think they just don't get it.

[–]llokanoBob the Drag Queen 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

Kim Chi ain't there to be a runway model or a dancer.

[–]theprostituteAlways & Forever, Alyssa Edwards 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Some of us aren't singers, we dancers!

[–]SalchichaChi Chi DeVayne 27ポイント28ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yeah, there are people that think drag is like blackface but for women. It's a real mess

[–]boysinbikinisBob the Drag Queen 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'm not offended by it, I agree with Ru in this case but there are some terms like "fishy" and "cunt" that offend people and I get that. Also some folks don't understand that a drag queen has a specific persona and just because she decides to be a stupid woman doesn't mean she thinks all women are stupid. Personably prefer the smart bitches anyway

[–]brendanrouth 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Kandy Ho voice What the fuck?

[–]fancseerRobbie, Kim Chi, Thorgy 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

I don't understand why anyone would think that, a man in a dress and a wig is the one who is made fun of, a woman in a dress is just the norm

[–]glassnopumps 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

i think that's because in some people's minds there is nothing worse than being a woman

[–]jukeboxhero515Bob the Drag Queen 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

I may be wrong, but I think a lot of the drag criticisms are aimed towards heterosexual men rather than homosexual men. Like in some of those movies where a man "disguises" himself as woman, and then he acts very stereotypical.

There are those who lump Drag Queens into that same group. But to me, it's a world of difference. Drag Queens are making fun of gender identity, not women.

[–]sawyer_johnson 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

i heard that a lot where i grew up from wannabe feminists. drag is supposedly the excuse of "gay and gender confused" men to undermine women and celebrate chauvinism. there are also some who compare drag to black face.

but what's interesting about this time is that more and more artists are actually into drag not necessarily to mock anything. they see it as an avenue to showcase their skills in creating and embodying someone away from who they are irl. so hopefully, these people can lead the way to elevating the general view towards drag. it's long overdue, i think.

[–]ldn6Bob the Drag Queen 8ポイント9ポイント  (9子コメント)

/r/tumblrinaction will shock you.

[–]KatyaKrazy 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Tumblrinaction is a prime example of why campus feminism / new wave feminism is a fucking joke. It's victim mentality 101 with no self reliance. They think it's easier to change society than it is to improve themselves.

[–]OvernightSirenTeam NYC 3ポイント4ポイント  (7子コメント)

Legitimately my favorite sub. Well, that and /r/thathappened

[–]SalchichaChi Chi DeVayne 47ポイント48ポイント  (1子コメント)

I like TiA but they are totally oblivious to jokes and there are some actual bigots there.

[–]yunith 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

R/trashy is where it's at!!!

[–]beSuruWhen's dinner? 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

Don't forget /r/quityourbullshit :D

[–]ldn6Bob the Drag Queen 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

Also /r/trippinthroughtime and /r/ofcoursethatsathing.

[–]OvernightSirenTeam NYC 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yasss I love the type of memes on /r/trippinthroughtime! So glad you introduced me to that sub. May I also recommend /r/confession and /r/confessions for a good dose of human drama?

[–]OvernightSirenTeam NYC 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

/r/mildlyinteresting is also pretty good

[–]boneslikeglass 16ポイント17ポイント  (1子コメント)

Compulsory "come to Brazil"

[–]Roku-ro 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Lol, I find it funny how you can see those comments everywhere. Under drag queens twitter, singers, models, actresses... just everywhere.

[–]QuelynBob the Drag Queen 37ポイント38ポイント  (1子コメント)

I'm a basically straight woman, a feminist, and a HUGE drag fan. I've never once felt attacked by discussion of Drag or Drag shows. I think that people that don't take the time to investigate Drag, or get to know it's roots, may have an odd perception of what Drag is. I think anyone thinking this is about "mocking women" needs to watch Paris is Burning right NOW.

[–]junglekimk4322 13ポイント14ポイント  (0子コメント)

If anything drag celebrates the fluidity of womanhood and empowers women of every size/shape. The most damaging component of the gender binary is putting things in boxes and drag is everything inside and outside that box.

[–]troximetalCUCUN 21ポイント22ポイント  (0子コメント)

Get em Ru

[–]astrum26Kim Chi 18ポイント19ポイント  (2子コメント)

The truth is that nobody owns gender, there may be different sexes but gender is just a catch all term for how we showcase ourselves to the world. Females don't own femininity, it's a quality that exists for everyone. Same way that women don't own the idea of wearing dresses/makeup/high heels etc. It just so happens that we associate those things with the female sex at this point in our cultural history. In different eras, men wore makeup, wigs and heels and it was completely normal.

It's like when people call a dress or a skirt- women's clothes. No, they are just clothes- the fact that it's usually women that wear them is besides the point.

I often feel like women have gone further in terms of gender identity than men have. Yes there is still a hell of a lot of sexism but thanks to suffrage and feminism, women have a much freer expression of gender then men have. For example, when a woman wears pants or a suit or they shave there hair off, we don't class that as cross dressing.

The male side of things really needs a shakeup.

[–]Tableatgreen 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

Exactly, nobody should own dresses and makeup and heels. Those are for everyone and drag queens break barrier that only women should wear those things.

[–]EltoshenKim Chi 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Beautifully said.

[–]tempcatsDerrick Barry 9ポイント10ポイント  (0子コメント)

I LOVE Rupaul, but I just don't understand her drag.

I think she needs a few more years before she deserves the top 3 with me and Kennedy.

[–]AceVersaceOk werk. 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

Alanis Morisette "Ironic" lip sync confirmed for all-stars?! c'mon mawma

[–]theprostituteAlways & Forever, Alyssa Edwards 8ポイント9ポイント  (0子コメント)

& as everyone knows...

If you are NOT getting IRONY ..you are probably commenting on reddit.

Ba doom chhh

[–]dootingtonBob's legs 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

He'll be happy to take your complaints after the show

[–]ellewoodswannabe16 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

I really like Ru's take on drag as a method of mocking identity, but I'm not so sure that's all there is to it. I'm sure it's being discussed already (major TL;DR), but I think that in addition to mocking identity and gender, drag queens are HONORING and WORSHIPPING the female characters that they've created or are impersonating. There was an article floating around on Facebook regarding straight girls in gay bars and one of the things the author said was that drag queens, especially when they're lip syncing, are connecting with the female artist in a way that shows their love and adoration and appreciation.

So I agree with Ru, but also disagree with Ru. And I think the fact that there are so many interpretations of drag show that it's so much more as "men dressing up as women."

UGH, I LOVE DRAG QUEENS.

[–]AdumbroDeus 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

I understand why there's some feminist critique of it, but the reality is homophobia is misogyny and it manifests in queer men as the expectation of being feminine and the belief that being feminine lowers us.

That is the role power forces upon us and so to take aim at us for following it is the wrong target, it's no different then blaming women who like makeup.

Drag isn't just an embrace, it's an active subversion, not simply for the sake of comedy but for the sake of critiquing the social expectations applied at us. It developed as a middle finger at society and it's expectations, at the idea that homosexuality made us feminine but also that femininity was a bad thing.

[–]Mexican802Naomi Smalls 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

This bothers me a little bit tho because RuPaul is still neglecting the fact that gay men are not the only ones to do drag, nor did they start it alone. Transgender people are very much present in the drag community, heck they've even had contestant in RPDR who transitioned after the show, and they even had a winner who is gender-fluid aka not strictly a man.

[–]senecathegreat -2ポイント-1ポイント  (1子コメント)

His "I get to dictate what's right and what's wrong" mentality is atrocious.

[–]jd1zChi Chi DeVayne 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

What did he decide was right and wrong in this tweet?

[–]cartevNaomi Smalls 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

She is so well angled in her perspective on how Drag is starting to fit into Pop Culture. She does well in explaining and pointing out what drag is as whole, not on a minute level. Like trying to explain what art is, you can't point to one thing and say this is what art is, its a concept.

[–]ThomseniteFit prison trade realness 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I think its all about freedom of choice and not being told that you have to express yourself or your gender in a certain way.

[–]PaulineFlemmingWe don't mean any harm, gurl. Except for when we do. 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Judith Butler realness for the win.

[–]evesummersxoKim Chi 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Ru has said this so many times this tweet might as well say "now I wanna talk about square space."

[–]AlaskaThunderfcvkI WANT GUYS WITH gorgeous stunning flawless DICKS TO CALL ME. -2ポイント-1ポイント  (0子コメント)

And off course there are STILL people being offended. Lololol

[–]dandybrother 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

SO clever and articulated

[–]thestooshienot that young, just ignorant 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I think terms like "fishy" are a bit gross and problematic (and indeed, totally born out of gay male culture and your incessant squick about vaginas), and I must say that I have objected to some of the shit that queens have said on the show... stuff about how if they were a woman they would be a slutty baby momma with kids by lots of different men, and many talk about how they would be hos or prostitutes. Probably jokes admittedly, but I just found them gross and less than funny.

Another thing about drag is that it serves as another element of that aspect of culture among gay males where women exist only as entertainment (because obviously, you are not interested in sleeping with us). This one is more unconscious than the above, but can be dehumanising.

That being said, I love drag and Ru IS right... as long as the queen is CLEVER. Drag performed by nasty idiots isn't knowing enough to do what he is getting at.

Ru should also stop throwing around "irony" like Alanis Morissette!

[–]MCChrisco -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

Kind of a generalization but sure