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[–]dmpinder[M] [スコア非表示] stickied comment (6子コメント)

This thread has been brigaded.

What does this mean?

It means that the lovely and thoughtful users over at /r/badphilosophy have decided to swarm this thread and either engage in vote manipulation (for example down-voting genuine replies or up-voting their own sardonic or sarcastic replies) or posting trolling/non-serious replies to either deter genuine discussion or make this subreddit look bad.

Why do they do this?

Because they didn't get enough love as children.

What can we do?

As in life, take what you read here with a pinch of salt. If someone is saying something that sounds ridiculous, then you may be reading something posted by a troll. If you spot genuine or honest-sounding answers with a large negative score, it may have been down-voted.

Lastly, please do not feed the trolls. Like school bullies they like to think they are superior, and they do this by hiding behind the anonymity of the Internet and trying to deter genuine discussion and debate which does not conform with their own philosophy. This is the price we pay for freedom of speech - having to deal with pathetic trolls.

[–]TotesMessenger 40ポイント41ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'm a bot, bleep, bloop. Someone has linked to this thread from another place on reddit:

If you follow any of the above links, please respect the rules of reddit and don't vote in the other threads. (Info / Contact)

[–][deleted] 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

Belle and Sebastian

[–]Vorpal_Kitten 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

From Beauty and the Beast and The Little Mermaid?

[–]bionikspoon 7ポイント8ポイント  (8子コメント)

Tommy Robinson, the former leader of the EDL, bona fide badass.

This guy is consistently painted as a racist, right wing bigot who incites violence against Muslims.

You can find video after video of violent Muslims attacking him, punching him the face, etc. A few weeks ago they put him in the hospital. A few days ago he live streamed a Muslim physically attacking him. Some of these videos, he'll walk through his home town with a leftist journalist who says "you should have a dialogue" and a violent gang of Muslims coalesce to go after him.

I've watched a few hours of him, he seems to have a legitimate grievance with Islam and radicalism in his home town. I don't understand why leftist are painting him as bigot. They've gone so far off the deep end, that even saying you don't like Islam, Mohammed was a terrorist, or the Koran incites violence again non-Muslims is all hate speech.

[–][deleted] 1ポイント2ポイント  (3子コメント)

Not this shit again. Tommy Robinson may be reformed, he may even never have personally been "racist", at least in the colloquial sense of being bigoted beyond societal norms, but when he was leader of the EDL it was a blatantly racist group that projected hateful stereotypes of muslims across the country, that protested against muslims in principle, and the injection of confidence they gave to the far right by failing to deal with the racism within the group led inevitably to the rise of groups like Britain fucking Furst

[–]bionikspoon 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

Tommy Robinson may be reformed, he may even never have personally been "racist", at least in the colloquial sense of being bigoted beyond societal norms, but when he was leader of the EDL ...

This is a quite a bit of hedging, is it not? He's racist, but the evidence is flimsy.

he was leader of the EDL it was a blatantly racist group that projected hateful stereotypes of muslims across the country

The group he started was against the spread of Islamism and Sharia. There's nothing racist about this objective. The group was infiltrated by people that took a more extreme position. Robinson tried to push the nazi's out. This is why there is video of them burning each other's flag. Is Robinson racist because he failed to keep the racist out of the EDL?

Isn't saying EDL was a "blatantly racist group" a hateful stereotype in itself?

I assume you wouldn't say Islam is "blatantly anti-semitic" based on the beliefs and actions from some of their membership. Would you?

This seems like a double standard. Do individual members of a group speak for the entire group or not?

Your using this sloppy premise to say Robinson is racist. Do traits of a group describe each individual member or not?

The evidence is flimsy.

injection of confidence they gave to the far right by failing to deal with the racism within the group led inevitably to the rise of groups like Britain fucking Furst

Would you apply this same logic to Islam and say that Muslims that want Sharia are injecting confidence to extreme right wing groups that will inevitably lead to the rise of groups like ISIS?

Another double standard.

[–][deleted] 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

None of these are good arguments.

The evidence, you are right, is flimsy in either direction as to whether Robinson was an out and out racist. However, to ignore the signs that he might be a racist is to hedge in the other direction. I want a counterblast to the view that everything about him is roses. The truth, the evidence suggests, is somewhere in the middle.

The group he started was against the spread of Islamism and Sharia, but the perception that these things were a danger that England needed to be saved from was thin in 2009, and it is thin now, or indeed that an all-white protest movement would be helpful to such an aim. Whereas it was clearly always going to be helpful to the aim of intimidating muslims, who are a fairly hard done by minority group in England.

Furthermore, the evidence shows that we don't need to accept the claim that it was against the spread of Islamism and Sharia, it was really against Islam in principle, as demonstrated when they protested against a pro-Palestine march in which people of diverse religious beliefs came together to support an incidentally muslim population from what they perceived to be tyranny by Israel.

Robinson tried very late in the day to push the Nazis out of the group when it had become apparent how intensely racist they were, but the evidence that they were racists was there to see long before he did this. The article I linked you quotes members as shouting "we hate muslims", amongst other things, and this should have raised Robinson's eyebrows early on. (edit: note that this protest took place in 2009)

Your claims about double standards are absurd. I'm criticising Tommy Robinson for failing to keep in line people over whom he had immediate power, and I'm suggesting that his failure to use that power suggests that he valued something other than beating racism enough that he was willing to value it over and above actually beating racism in the group.

Furthermore, Islam is not an institution like a group, it is a religion. EDL was a blatantly racist and importantly small group because people within it's organisational structure were racists who could have been easily removed and were not. They also engaged in activities which heavily implied a racist message and co-ordinated with racist groups. So open racism was at the very least tolerated and indeed integral to the continued running and organisation of the group, as long as Tommy Robinson refused to do anything about it. This is sufficient for me to call them a racist group.

I was criticising the EDL for helping the far-right to grow. Again, this is on a local scale. Muslims who want acceptance of Sharia within Britain for Muslim matters do not have an obvious role to play in ISIS.

Various edits to clean up.

[–]bionikspoon -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

If you agree the evidence is flimsy, then it seems you would be on my side: liberals are unjustified in painting him as an Islamaphobic, racist, bigot, etc. Surely it's not wise to go around calling people racist on the off chance they might be. Furthermore, when he speaks for himself, he doesn't have anything racist to say.

When he describes EDL from his perspective, he's expressing disapproval with problems in his hometown that deserve to be protested. The grooming, child rape gangs. The "british soldiers burn in hell" protesters. That radicals. The terrorists. The jihadist carrying around ISIS flags. The people putting up "magnificent 19" posters to celebrate 9/11. Anjem Choudry's group. The Islamists. The 2-tier police system.

This is extreme intolerance from certain muslim communities. He says himself: "it's not all muslims, but there is a problem here". It seems to me moderate Muslims should have joined these protests. But instead he gets labeled as a racist, far-right, hate protestor, and moderate muslims protest his groups.

EDL had problems, but there's no evidence that this came from Tommy Robinson. All the evidence points in the other direction. He tried to keep the racist out. You're over estimating his power within the group. The EDL had no membership list, dues, or an application to join; he was organizing street protests. He was able to push the nazis out because they're a self identifying sub-group.

EDL had problems, but when Robinson speaks for himself, he expresses legitimate grievances with radicalism and sharia as experienced in his home town. Contrary to your belief, these ARE threats to anyone who 1) believes western values are superior and 2) doesn't want to live in a 3rd world hell hole.

There's nothing absurd about pointing out a double standard. There is some massive anti-semitism problems coming from some Muslims communities. If someone wanted to extract out of that "therefore muslims are anti semitic", you probably call that a hateful stereotype. But if the EDL has racist members, your comfortable saying "therefore EDL is blatantly racist". You try to special plead your way out of this. Tommy Robinson isn't doing enough about the racist. Well, we could say the Mosque communities these people are hailing from aren't doing enough about anti-semitism.

All I'm saying, is don't make excuses to generalize groups you don't like, then play victim when it's done to your group. Let's not label everyone critical of Islam as racist; it's a set of ideas that deserves to be criticized.

[–]memetonymy 0ポイント1ポイント  (3子コメント)

"They've gone so far off the deep end, that even saying you don't like Islam, Mohammed was a terrorist, or the Koran incites violence again non-Muslims is all hate speech."

The Koran <b>prescribes</b> violence upon the deserving of among whom are the recalcitrant heretic, righteous violence engrained in character, exhibited in habit and succession of authority, written with the pen which is the tongue of the mind a brutalization process. But the brutalization techniques producible at this stage in technology are my friend, only make it all too evident that is just a fact of life that I do not hate affliction, mostly as there are some hateful afflictions, and the game will be up. The exemplary man exposed as example precisely because he was expert in and advocated violence to subdue his opponents, as well as a genius, a vector inflection point at a balance of powers within the societies there. But observant as he was, he saw more but a amplitude of resonance with the world about him, the mind by excess of propagation whose mirror we darkly gleam smeared scarcely readable, spelling hobbled utterly unambiguous prescription to enforce universal justice -justice in imitation (inevitability imitation occasionally takes up habits of high replicability), but sometimes inseasons. The Fall comes, and a winter sprig upon the tree of life springs into a flourishing bloom up to the tip of this new vector of replication. And the optimal temperature may be different at different ages in the course of human history. And if we are to self select in regarding it as a complete right as carrying a gun to kill a child whilst it is nestled in the womb, we shall with silent gravitational influence or spry waves of air pressure, or half remembered definite conclusions with plausible sources explorable, but in an obscure, high priced, academic journals. The language of high price, that which notes when a high price is paid for following combinations of instinct and impulse to which labled axes of instance of imperatives being implemented, from those drunk in their own zeal material giving great significance to their own abstentious sobriety, which does not even playfully lose track of it's purpose, and pay a high price for awkwardly getting less wrong bad philosophy more frequently than it discovers wherefore it is discovered in as much where it is discovered before. Debrutalization of political power involves dismantling mass cults which consistently maintain confidence in the continued leadership of the Disciples, and the writings and legends and habits of attire, conceptual heuristic tactics that teach strategy of the One Mohammed, who simply heard very saw loudly viscerally what others too know better than he, because they all could recognize it in him that is in me. One must merely trace the course of his life and the example scaled over different times in imitation of him. The countless metonyms, the meme association corrupting the perfected and perfecting the fortunate, oh fickly fortune, but what apptetite will not re-arise as it did in him. It's the arrogance of the categorical eschatatology and divine principle of order by the teachings of the Desert God, the God of the Mood hurtling into the shadow of earth with but a razor of a crescent left illuminated. The moon reaches 123 C temperature (20c above boiling point of water), and -150C, rapid ice burns. There is a time for peace and a time for war, for love and occasionally justice. Why would you think anything else would be at stake but holding of the highest hubris? There are reliable ways and means, and Mohammed was a multifaceted teacher, his ruthelessly establishing uniformity of obeisance, so it's fidelity can be widely recognized, his equally sanguine sentimentalities as droll and forgiving, and vouchsafing indulgence as though the world was at his control. Some nasty shit will come to serve as an infamous reference point of how primitive metaman was yet so blind as will half see what they believe everywhere at all times. I should think it's better off common knowledge that the Political projects laid out on the Koran, are tried and true, they had their day, they proved their folly and the phones all ring out, hands to pockets go the crowds, "Hello World. Nobody really knows the pace of events, but it can be expected to escalate in salience as the settlers establish in, and after earning more comfortable situation, chances one day to look again at their scripture in gratitude. Those unhinged and gratuitous glorification never moderate scorn, just various difference kinds of extreme scorn.

I have taken Koran by my right hand and I was holding a deadly weapon, sharpened in chronological order - no more of this obfuscation of predatory opportunism, opportunistic opportunism, and general lack of principle except justifying something by one principle, well actually interlocking system of authority far too tangled for anyone to understand with certainty but by presupposition as a parameter, where it's not so clear which is the cause and which the effect when mans conceits calls him to the total vision of the eternal god, which is totally immune to our flaws. Alas for us, Mohammed was a triumphant self promoting gangster. And, you know, we're going to have to put to bed this dream that Islam is the overriding behavioral organizing principle. Trying to follow fidelity to the text, though in itself an excellent surmise, could not compensate for failing to be faithful to texts which would prove more faithful representations of the knowable, the likely and the wise, with equal fidelity hold. For if not truth, what else guides our inquiry? Gods metonymic attributes remain the elusively obvious answer for his extent and power, but is rudely ignorant of the source of his distinctive influence on the world that bore him, and the one that broke his body down is not the exclusive gift of onely one voice. It is the onencess of the voice that is the critical innovation, and it's identity, it's well precedented vindictiveness against dissent. In the long run it could be some mere conceit. At other eras it becomes extremely predictable. That is there is no plausible scheme to combine the motives of all human beings to one end. Thus wanting, the last resort is to force. And from beginning to end, that conquest and plunder has proved profitable, and ebbing and flowing in intensity, but most definitely dangerous, because it can never achieve it's goal. All other means will fail and it will turn to force. But it will still fail, though through generating hardship and misery for human kind, strengthen it.

[–]Baabda 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

Is this copypasta?

[–]memetonymy 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Copypasta? Could you explain?

[–]flyinghamsta 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

i totally disagree with you but brilliant post (not part of a troll-brigade dont worry)

[–]hinduboi 12ポイント13ポイント  (0子コメント)

Maajid Nawaz for sure.

[–]drunkentune 11ポイント12ポイント  (18子コメント)

/r/badphilosophy regulars.

[–]gaaaaag 3ポイント4ポイント  (17子コメント)

What 9 people not brigading - which you never do - from r/badphilosophy upvoted you?

[–]evannever 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

Apparently it's cool for subs 4 times as large as other subs to direct link, comment, and downvote. That's totally not a brigade, even when the subject of our sub is lampooned in the banner image of their sub. I must be totally imaging this.

[–]drunkentune 0ポイント1ポイント  (14子コメント)

I don't know, but if you point them out to me, I'll ban them.

[–]Keith-Ledger 2ポイント3ポイント  (13子コメント)

It's impossible to demonstrate any given user upvoted any given comment on reddit without hacking into their account, as far as I know. Doesn't mean it isn't totally transparent what's going on here, right?

[–]drunkentune -1ポイント0ポイント  (12子コメント)

I'm being as transparent as possible. I fail to see how the moderators of /r/badphilosophy should be subject to any blame for an act by unknown parties that is impossible to stop, much less detect their origin, and the moderators of /r/badphilosophy have condoned.

[–]Keith-Ledger 3ポイント4ポイント  (11子コメント)

Oh come off it, don't be so naïve. Why such an unreasonably high standard of evidence for a claim so basic? I don't think you're failing to see anything, rather being deliberately obtuse and hiding behind the technicalities of the voting system to acquit your sub of everything.

This is textbook "bad philosophy", pointing to a table and saying "that table's not there, you know...".

[–]drunkentune 1ポイント2ポイント  (3子コメント)

Why such an unreasonably high standard of evidence for a claim so basic?

If you point them out to me, I'll ban them. But as you say, 'It's impossible to demonstrate any given user upvoted any given comment on reddit without hacking into their account'. Looks like I'm caught in a bind, since I can't control the behaviour of others.

I don't think you're failing to see anything, rather being deliberately obtuse and hiding behind the technicalities of the voting system to acquit your sub of everything.

I see plenty: I see you attempting to place blame on the moderators of /r/badphilosophy for actions outside the control of the moderators of /r/badphilosophy. I can't do the impossible. And you said it was impossible.

So your analogy fails, and it's more like you demanding from me near omniscience about the intentions of others.

[–]Keith-Ledger 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

What do you mean you're caught in a bind? You're the one offering to ban people who cannot possibly be caught, I'm not making you say that. I wasn't telling you to do the impossible, I was saying what you were offering to do was impossible. You wouldn't deliberately misunderstand me, would you?

[–]drunkentune 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

I wasn't telling you to do the impossible, I was saying what you were offering to do was impossible.

Someone could offer that information. So keep vigilant, reading all the comments you can from the regulars of /r/badphilosophy! Once you see someone that says they systematically down voted comments here, bring it to my attention and I'll personally ban them. We wouldn't want a brigade here.

[–]Baabda 0ポイント1ポイント  (6子コメント)

Why such an unreasonably high standard of evidence for a claim so basic?

I guess you could say the burden of proof is yours?

Aw snap!

[–]Keith-Ledger 1ポイント2ポイント  (5子コメント)

Umm no? That wasn't my point. Key word was unreasonable. Standards of evidence necessary to accept a claim depend on the merit of the claim. All the evidence you need is right here in this thread. You seriously need more?

[–]Baabda -1ポイント0ポイント  (4子コメント)

What evidence? Posts were downvoted. There was no call to downvote from the badphil mods. They even agreed to ban any user caught brigading. I'd say you're the one being unreasonable.

[–]Keith-Ledger 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

I wasn't really even talking about a downvote brigade, more about the comments you guys are making specifically to derail the topic and upvoting each other in the process. That's what the original reply to the root of this chain is addressing.

The fact that they keep saying "we'll ban X if you can prove Y" when they know full well Y is beyond reasonable technical demonstration is precisely what's unreasonable.

How am I being unreasonable?

[–]drunkentune 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

B-but no follower of Sam could be unreasonable. You're just not understanding the context.

[–]Vittgenstein 18ポイント19ポイント  (9子コメント)

Noam Chomsky

[–]gaaaaag 8ポイント9ポイント  (1子コメント)

proof of brigading? 20 upvotes for lame comment.

[–]Vittgenstein 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

You did it! What's next? Will you prove science can determine morality?

[–]PixyFreakingStix 11ポイント12ポイント  (101子コメント)

Well, Anita Sarkeesian is the first person that comes to mind for me.

[–]Keith-Ledger 9ポイント10ポイント  (44子コメント)

This is a pretty unimportant thread but are the mods gonna continue to do nothing about the blatant brigading and vote manipulation whenever badphil links here? I don't really mind them per se, but this is a small enough subreddit that it's immediately obvious when this happens.

[–]US_Hiker 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

blatant brigading and vote manipulation whenever badphil links here?

There's absolutely nothing that can be done. They could ban badphil people, but that doesn't stop linking or votes. It only stops badphil comments being upvoted to the top.

[–]PixyFreakingStix 4ポイント5ポイント  (42子コメント)

What do you suggest we do? I'd love some tools to deal with that, but that's all on the admins' side.

All we can do is ask that they don't, and ask that you guys don't retaliate by doing the same thing.

[–]evannever 1ポイント2ポイント  (41子コメント)

Have the admins completely given up on policing brigading?

[e] Have you guys tried to report this to the admins?

[–]PixyFreakingStix 5ポイント6ポイント  (40子コメント)

No, but they only deal with it when it's happening at a large scale. Our little sub being brigaded by a couple people from their little sub is beneath their concerns, I imagine. If /r/badphilosophy was actively encouraging it, or not trying to police it at all, the admins would probably ban that subreddit.

I suppose, despite the antagonistic relationship I have with their mods (particularly the sub's creator) I could go over there and politely request that they politely request that their users not brigade us. If, in fact, that's what's actually happening.

[–]evannever 3ポイント4ポイント  (30子コメント)

Their mods do it, they don't use NP links, they give no warnings against it. I'm not sure how you get more encouraging.

Sure, they'll cynically cry "ECHO CHAMBER, WHAT ABOUT IDEAS!!!" but the reality is that for every one or two who attempt to debate people in this sub, there are five who shitpost, and another 25 who simply down vote pro-Harris comments and upvote badphil comments.

It's pretty discouraging.

[–]PixyFreakingStix 3ポイント4ポイント  (28子コメント)

edit: Clearly, I was wrong, at least in this case.

Their mods do it

What, brigade? How can you tell? Coming over here and commenting isn't against Reddit's rules, nor ours. I've not seen the mods trolling us.

they don't use NP links,

Yeah, but that's a pretty tedious thing to police for such a small problem. We really are looking at a couple of users doing this maybe once a week at most. I really don't know if it's reasonable to ask them to start using np links just for that.

they give no warnings against it.

To be fair, most subs don't. Only big subs with lots of issues with that like /r/subredditdrama or /r/shitredditsays really got on people about it. And then there are other much larger, much worse subs like /r/sandersforpresident and /r/the_donald who brigade relentlessly.

I'm not sure how you get more encouraging.

... well, you could actually encourage it, for starters. "Hey, look at these idiots in /r/samharris, go show them what for."

but the reality is that for every one or two who attempt to debate people in this sub, there are five who shitpost,

Can you point to instances of this happening? I just banned an /r/badphilosophy troll, but otherwise, I actually haven't seen all that much shitposting coming from them.

and another 25 who simply down vote pro-Harris comments and upvote badphil comments.

That seems like an awful exaggeration to me. Do you have RES? I don't. So I can't actually see the numbers. Are there lots of comments that are like... -15 +18 or something? Because most of the comments I come across are modestly upvoted, and the bad ones are modestly downvoted.

So, I'm not trying to be bitchy by disagreeing with everything you just said, but I genuinely don't. And I say this as someone who thinks /r/badphilosophy sucks and that their mods are dorks.

[–]SCHROEDINGERS_UTERUS 0ポイント1ポイント  (5子コメント)

RES can't actually show numbers, either, that was abolished ages ago. All you can see now is the little red "controversial" cross for posts that have gotten lots of up- and downvotes.

[–]PixyFreakingStix 0ポイント1ポイント  (4子コメント)

Aha. I wonder why they did that.

In that case, is there really any reason to think /r/badphilosophy is brigading us this hard? Because I'm just not seeing it, and it sounds like a lot of overreacting to me.

I'm not going to go over there and stir up a hornet's nest unless there's a real issue here.

[–]Keith-Ledger 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

Only reason I brought it up in my initial reply to you is I haven't been here for a while, and this thread is one of the first I clicked on. And when the first thing I saw was a good 40% of the post replies being from badphil regulars, including their creator, trying to turn OPs question against itself and being upvoted in the process, I just wondered what was being done, if anything. Like I said, this thread is fairly inconsequential and I haven't been here for a while but I was curious.

If there's no real issue though, ignore me and carry on ;-)

[–]drunkentune 0ポイント1ポイント  (21子コメント)

And I say this as someone who thinks /r/badphilosophy sucks and that their mods are dorks.

Physician, heal thyself.

[–]PixyFreakingStix 0ポイント1ポイント  (20子コメント)

Case in point.

[–]drunkentune 0ポイント1ポイント  (19子コメント)

I'm interested in learning how what I said was an instance illustrating how '/r/badphilosophy sucks and their mods are dorks', but once more, with feeling, physician, heal thyself.

[–]US_Hiker 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

they don't use NP links

NP links are a useless fiction.

I'm not sure how you get more encouraging.

By encouraging people?

This doesn't actually meet the reddit definition of brigading anyways.

[–]HamParis 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

You forget that /r/badphilosophy is by design a sub for people to together and whine and be negative. That is a fact statement, now begins the trashing.

Subs like these always spew of negativity and upset comments, circle jerking about their mixture of despair and superiority they are feeling when encountering the stupidity of whomever they are targeting. The most "pure" example of this is /r/shitredditsays , and here is a link explaining how it's the most toxic of the big subreddits: http://idibon.com/toxicity-in-reddit-communities-a-journey-to-the-darkest-depths-of-the-interwebs/ . It also gives shout out to /r/tumblrinaction (same idea, but for tumblr) and /r/subredditdrama (similar, too). Subs like these always have these traits in common, and they always brigade. It is what it's meant to be, and it is who its users attempt to be. Just think about it, what kind of person do you think spends that much time searching other subreddits for things they disagree with, and what do you think that kind of attention does to a human?

[–]PixyFreakingStix 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

You forget that /r/badphilosophy is by design a sub for people to together and whine and be negative. That is a fact statement, now begins the trashing.

Which, incidentally, I see nothing wrong with. The other "bad" subreddits are great. /r/badlinguistics (other than being Chomsky fans...) is great, /r/badhistory, /r/badscience, /r/badsocialscience... they're all great. /r/badphilosophy is the only place that sticks out to me as cruddy, and it did long before I ever started participating in this sub.

Subs like these always spew of negativity and upset comments

Yeah, honestly, change the subject matter a bit, and you might as well be making of these comments yourself right now.

Just think about it, what kind of person do you think spends that much time searching other subreddits for things they disagree with, and what do you think that kind of attention does to a human?

Everyone has hobbies, and very little, I bet.

[–]HamParis 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yeah, honestly, change the subject matter a bit, and you might as well be making of these comments yourself right now.

Fair enough, this is a negative post. Criticism of course has its place. Besides, Sam Harris became famous for criticizing religion, and still spends a lot of time doing that.

The other "bad" subreddits are great.

I haven't really looked into the other /r/badX subs, so I guess that's bad on me for assuming. I looked a little bit quickly, and I can see what you mean, the other subs seem a bit less amplified, but I think my point holds.

very little, I bet.

Really? This is one of the most fundamental truths about our brains. Whatever we think about, we train ourselves to think about later again. People who are constantly stressed have real difficulties turning the stress off, people who are racists will always find a reason to be racist, people who always wants to find something negative about others will always find it. People who spend all of their time thinking about and playing chess will find chess-like ideas everywhere. This is vital for treating depression and anxiety and is the reason meditation works.

[–]atnorman 1ポイント2ポイント  (5子コメント)

So, we do refuse to use .np links, but that's mainly because we fundamentally believe they're useless.

For real, we have a standing invitation, if you can prove someone voted in a linked thread, we will ban them. We don't want the subreddit shut down for brigading, so we will happily ban anyone who admits to voting. That's just the best we can do.

[–]gaaaaag 2ポイント3ポイント  (3子コメント)

Where did your 6 upvotes on a hostile subreddit come from?

[–]atnorman -1ポイント0ポイント  (2子コメント)

Probs bad phil users. If you can point out who, I'll ban em.

[–][削除されました]  (1子コメント)

[deleted]

    [–]atnorman -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

    No clue! How do you suggest I or any other mod does it?

    [–]PixyFreakingStix 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

    So, we do refuse to use .np links, but that's mainly because we fundamentally believe they're useless.

    We don't ask them to be used because we're so small, but I don't agree that they're useless. Often, brigading happens unintentionally, without the person who's doing it really thinking about it. Sure, if you're set on brigading, that's an easy problem to get around.

    If you're not, then it'll work. However, I don't think that's the solution here.

    That's just the best we can do.

    If you're not doing this already, you could remind people in the threads that link to our posts and comments that voting on threads discovered via /r/badphilosophy is not okay.

    [–]alpacasallday 3ポイント4ポイント  (18子コメント)

    All the gamergate victims.

    [–]PixyFreakingStix 0ポイント1ポイント  (17子コメント)

    Yeah, Zoe Quinn got it just as bad, if not worse.

    [–]atnorman -2ポイント-1ポイント  (16子コメント)

    Nah. There was/is one badphil mod who used to date Quinn (I forget who), apparently she's an incredibly shitty person.

    [–]PixyFreakingStix 4ポイント5ポイント  (15子コメント)

    I'm not sure how that's supposed to even remotely justify basically anything that's happened to her. She could be an asshole, but the months-long, thousands-strong, organized harassment campaign against her is reprehensible.

    I'm also not sure why you'd be inclined to take an ex at their word.

    [–]darthr -2ポイント-1ポイント  (9子コメント)

    Zoe has a long unethical history. It was one of the reasons she was singled out. I'm not justifying it, I'm explaining. She's a pretty bad person that is a drama light rod.

    [–]PixyFreakingStix 2ポイント3ポイント  (8子コメント)

    Zoe has a long unethical history.

    From what sources, and how were you able to tell they were reliable?

    I do suspect Zoe isn't a particularly nice person or anything, but the reason tens of thousands of people went out of their way to destroy her was not based on her long unethical history.

    [–]darthr -2ポイント-1ポイント  (7子コメント)

    It's easily searchable. I don't want to talk about Zoe Quinn, she has been vilified (and herofied) enough. I'm just saying she wasn't just some random girl before the campaign started. She painted a target on her head by being a horrible person on the "sjw" side. And let's not mince words about it, she abused the fuck out of eron. If Zoe had an "eron post" with similar content the politics of this thing would be completely different.

    [–]PixyFreakingStix 1ポイント2ポイント  (6子コメント)

    It's easily searchable.

    How did you know it was accurate, though? I searched through some stuff briefly and all of it seems incredibly suspect to me. The only thing that seems that it could be legit is an article by Mike Cernovich, a lawyer that's clearly using this incident to his own benefit and putting together paltry and easily-faked information. Is it actually faked? I don't know. But it's not convincing. It provides no evidence of what "Helldump" actually is, and when I searched for that, I didn't find any evidence either.

    If you don't want to talk about Zoe Quinn, we don't have to. But I do want to know what this "long unethical history" is and how you feel confident that the information you've obtained is true.

    Considering that, again, there are tens of thousands of people actively trying to ruin her life, it seems like anything bad you read about her you should be super suspicious of.

    So either you're credulous, or you have some good reason to think what's said about her is true. I don't know what you think "easily searchable" is, but I didn't find anything.

    And let's not mince words about it, she abused the fuck out of Eron.

    How do you know that? It sounds like he was awfully abusive too, but nevermind that. A jilted ex lover joined up with 4chan to try to see someone destroyed.

    I don't understand why you're taking him at his word.

    [–]darthr -1ポイント0ポイント  (5子コメント)

    He has evidence of everything Zoe did to him. Her collisions with wizardchan and the fine young capitalists are well documented. Specific people famous in this scene have commented how terrible she was before that kicked off. Look, I don't really care. The issue with Zoe Quinn is ultimately a smoke screen for anti feminism against feminism in gaming. I can think gamergate is stupid and think Zoe sucks at the same time.

    [–]atnorman -3ポイント-2ポイント  (4子コメント)

    Oh, I think a lot of the stuff that happened to her is bad. Just not the "ad hominem".

    I'm also not sure why you'd be inclined to take an ex at their word.

    Er? Because I assume he can be an adult?

    [–]PixyFreakingStix 5ポイント6ポイント  (3子コメント)

    Oh, I think a lot of the stuff that happened to her is bad.

    Which parts weren't?

    Just not the "ad hominem".

    So... looking at the whole Gamergate thing at large, you're not willing to say she's faced unnecessary ad hominem attacks? I'm just going off what the title of this submissionsaid. If you just mean there are some mean things to say about her that are justified, then okay.

    Er? Because I assume he can be an adult?

    Oh, come now. Even people who are awesome at being adults don't tend to have particularly objective, unbiased opinions on their exes. Especially when that ex has a huge spotlight thrown on them.

    [–]atnorman -2ポイント-1ポイント  (2子コメント)

    Which parts weren't?

    The people saying she's a shitty person? Jesus.

    Even people who are awesome at being adults don't tend to have particularly objective, unbiased opinions on their exes.

    I'm somewhat skeptical that you've met many adults...

    [–]PixyFreakingStix 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

    The people saying she's a shitty person? Jesus.

    Like, the thousands of them? The people that never met her? The people that heard a rumor, but were already inclined to hate her because she was a feminist and a woman and involved in gaming?

    Do you just mean the... I don't know, 15 or so people that knew her personally and had a right to have an opinion on this? This might seem nitpicky, but I don't think it actually is. If you subtract off those 15 (or whatever) people, you're not left with "a lot" of what happened to her is bad. You're left with "virtually all" of what happened to her is bad (involving gamergate).

    Is that what you meant? I'm not being unreasonable by thinking "a lot" implies you think there's still a pretty sizeable chunk of stuff that went down involving Zoe Quinn and Gamergate that you're cool with. "A lot" was bad, so what's the sizeable chunk that wasn't? That's what I'm asking about.

    I'm somewhat skeptical that you've met many adults...

    lol, really? You think like... 28 year olds to be generally well-grounded and nuanced when it comes to assessing the actions and personality of an ex? No bitter late 30's jilted lovers in your neck of the woods?

    [–]atnorman 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

    The people that heard a rumor, but were already inclined to hate her because she was a feminist and a woman and involved in gaming?

    I'm not convinced you've got the reasoning right here. Let's say people would hate her with a 75% chance if they were reasonable upon hearing the stuff, whereas anti feminists have a 90% chance. Now, the people in the second group reached the right conclusion for good reasons, the pre disposition doesn't actually change the rationality, they came to the rational conclusion given the evidence. Now, if it was 45, 55, I can agree, they weren't justified. But the anti feminists simply were justified in disliking her, for reasons having nothing to do with her being a woman.

    lol, really? You think like... 28 year olds to be generally well-grounded and nuanced when it comes to assessing the actions and personality of an ex? No bitter late 30's jilted lovers in your neck of the woods?

    I did mean emotionally.

    [–]Ben--Affleck 0ポイント1ポイント  (36子コメント)

    Are other Sam Harris fans typically fans of this form of feminism?

    [–]PixyFreakingStix 1ポイント2ポイント  (35子コメント)

    Not that I know of. I think there is one other poster here that I know of who is openly feminist, but I haven't heard of anyone else.

    [–]Ben--Affleck 0ポイント1ポイント  (32子コメント)

    I feel like most Sam Harris fans should be able to understand her arguments aren't being dismissed based on ad hominem attacks... her form of feminism simply presents such obviously ludicrous non-arguments as arguments that she ends up being insulted for making horrible arguments. Granted, she gets a lot of unwarranted flack... but she's not ad hominem attacked because her arguments are good, but rather because they're bad and yet bought into because they involve shaming. She's closer to Reza Aslan than Sam.

    [–]PixyFreakingStix 2ポイント3ポイント  (31子コメント)

    her form of feminism simply presents such obviously ludicrous non-arguments as arguments that she ends up being insulted for making horrible arguments.

    Care to give me an example? And I mean something specific she's said; not your interpretation of it. Respectfully, I just can't assume Anita's critics are going to interpret her fairly. While I don't agree with everything she's ever said, I find most of her criticism pretty spot on.

    but she's not ad hominem attacked because her arguments are good

    She's attacked regardless of how good or bad her arguments are by people that are offended that a feminist is criticizing video games.

    [–]Ben--Affleck 0ポイント1ポイント  (30子コメント)

    The whole shtick is nonsensical. Sexy women in videogames apparently are bad... men saving women is bad... realistic depictions of prostitution is bad in the middle of a game where you're meant to kill people!...

    I mean, it's just the "no win" brand of feminism which should be obvious to anyone. I shouldn't even have to go into her blatant lies. There's a reason why wherever she has a video, the comments are disabled. There's a lot of solid criticism mixed in with the ad hominem. And it's pretty obvious... I mean, the whole lying about Hitman promoting the murder of strippers? Which it doesnt... and even if you had an incentive to kill a stripper, so what? Aren't these games for adults?

    It's hard to even think a grownup can take this stuff seriously... it's all paranoid nonsense trying to make women into victims in a world of fantasy, drama and story-telling. No society or life is completely free of gender stereotyping and pigeonholing... criticizing any depiction of any world with any gender stereotyping as sexist seems silly. It's almost on the level of calling Amistad racist or Schindler's List anti-semitic.

    I tried watching one of the her videos again to see whether I can pick something specific... chose this shorter one... its astonishingly silly. She's noticing something that might be true, women's butts in videogames are more visible than men's butts. But is there anything wrong with that? Women's butts are appreciated much more than men's butts and the games tend to be targeted towards young males. Men's bodies and women's bodies are depicted differently... is that really sexist? Watch the video and tell me she's saying anything other than "Women's butts are considered sexual commodities! wah!". Should men do the same when it comes to muscular forearms? Shall we all just lose our minds and treat sexuality and sexiness like something ugly, rather than beautiful?

    "This emphasis on the butts of female characters that this is what's important, this is what you should be paying attention to. It communicates that the character is a sexual object designed for players to look at and enjoy. And by explicitly encouraging you to ogle and objectify the character, the game is implicitly discouraging you from identifying directly with her."

    This seems like insane paranoia that only a radical feminism could take seriously. Heterosexual men and homosexual women find women's butts attractive. This doesn't in any way clash with seeing them as people, sexy people in fact. This is no different from men and women finding men's back muscles attractive. They are also predominantly exposed in fantasy games and movies, because it's fantasy... and we'd rather look at (or feel like) beautiful people than ugly people. I'm not finding sexism... I'm simply finding sexual dimorphism, and unlike radical feminists, the sexes being different doesn't make them unequal to me.

    [–]PixyFreakingStix 4ポイント5ポイント  (29子コメント)

    See, this is what I figured you were going to say.

    Sexy women in videogames apparently are bad...

    Let's talk about only this point for a moment. You immediately give me your own unfair interpretation of what she's saying, right after I told you that's what you were going to do. So let's get into the details of this point.

    Do you think she's saying that no sexy female character should ever be in a video game? Or that the fact that (though this is very slowly beginning to improve) virtually every female character in video games was designed by men to be sexy?

    Why is this bad? Because it's lazy, pandering, thoughtless character design, and it's part of a broader problem where women aren't included in media of any type unless they're sexualized.

    This is what Anita is saying.

    This is something you consider nonsensical? Or did you just not realize that was her point?

    [–]Ben--Affleck 0ポイント1ポイント  (28子コメント)

    Did you honestly just ignore everything else I said, and the video I left for you to watch? Fuck, I gave you a quote if you're too lazy to indulge.

    Do you think she's saying that no sexy female character should ever be in a video game? Or that the fact that (though this is very slowly beginning to improve) virtually every female character in video games was designed by men to be sexy?

    Not sure what she's saying, because the vast majority of characters in adult games and action movies are sexualized, male or female. And I don't see any problem with it.

    Why is this bad? Because it's lazy, pandering, thoughtless character design, and it's part of a broader problem where women aren't included in media of any type unless they're sexualized. This is what Anita is saying. This is something you consider nonsensical? Or did you just not realize that was her point?

    I don't deny that women tend to be more sexualized than men, but I don't see it as a problem. Maybe pigeonholing women as stupid would be a problem, but that's not the case. Imagine men formed some movement around the cause of having more fat out of shape main characters... that'd be pretty damn silly, wouldn't it? It isn't lazy... and it is pandering... because that's what people who make products do, they pander to those who might buy the products.

    While I think it's an interesting topic to discuss... taking the position that women are unfairly pigeon-holed in some patriarchal conspiracy is ridiculous, naive and counter-productive. Men and women's sexuality will always be a commodity to fantasy writing, because, well, it's fucking fantasy and that's what humans fantasize about. My gamer girl friend wants to play as a hot vixen for the same reason I want to play as a hunk. Not every person is so repulsed by sexuality.

    Like most radical feminist positions, there's some truth to it buried in layers of BS. Our notion of ourselves, our gender, our sexuality and how we're supposed to act is extremely interesting and deeply important... but adult games are for adults, those people who got a grip and can indulge in this and ignore that at their own leisure. If she only focused on kids' games where only women were sexualized, she might have a point... but she doesn't. Men and women are sexualized, and typically only in adult games. And no, round butts are not automatically "objectification".

    She'd have a much more reasonable, though subtle point, if she didn't try making it a comparison between women and men. We no doubt get influenced by gender stereotyping in media... but that isn't something we can simply do without considering we have freedom of expression in art and an actually sexually dimorphic species.

    You can probably tell I'm not very sympathetic to victim feminism. It's not all BS, but I think it's perfectly reasonable to call her work stupid. I still don't get how finding women sexy renders them into mere objects. Appreciating a women's curves isn't synonymous with treating them like fleshlights. I never understood that leap... maybe you could try melting my cold shitlord heart. I'd honestly appreciate some kind of clarification as to how the leap occurs.

    [–]PixyFreakingStix 1ポイント2ポイント  (14子コメント)

    Did you honestly just ignore everything else I said, and the video I left for you to watch.

    I got to that point and no further. My post was quite short, and I feel like you ignored a bunch of what I said, though.

    Not sure what she's saying, because the vast majority of characters in adult games and action movies are sexualized, male or female.

    That is not true. Most male characters, in fact, are not sexualized. Some are. Most aren't. A man with muscles without a shirt is not inherently sexualized, by the way. Neither are female characters. I'll bet you haven't seen many female characters that are half dressed that weren't half dressed to be sexually titillating, though.

    I don't deny that women tend to be more sexualized than men, but I don't see it as a problem.

    We don't have to talk about it in terms of whether or not it's a problem. I think these things reflect the attitudes of society (so does Anita). But nevermind that.

    I think video games would be better if they weren't pandering to 13-year-old boys with hard-ons. Can we find some common ground at least on that?

    taking the position that women are unfairly pigeon-holed in some patriarchal conspiracy is ridiculous,

    THIS IS ANOTHER UNFAIR INTERPRETATION OF WHAT IS BEING SAID. This is why I asked you to cite specific example of exactly what she's said that you find so ludicrous. Because remember, you're not talking about disagreeing with her. You're talking about her stuff being insane. Saying "I think games would be better if the camera didn't leer at women's asses all the time" isn't insane.

    Anyway, I don't want to read your rant about feminism being full of shit. I asked you a very specific question about a very particular point, and the reason I did that is because I'd rather like to avoid getting into an essay-writing contest with you.

    Anita Sarkeesian did not say sexy women in games are bad. She's saying it's overused, and that it's a lazy, pandering trope, and that how common it is reflects society's attitudes towards women.

    If you'd like to know why that might be bad, there's a metric fuck ton of psychology research about it. You could start here; https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/overcoming-child-abuse/201203/the-sexualization-women-and-girls

    What you're saying is, "I don't see why that's bad," and, having done very little research on why it might be bad yourself, you're coming to the conclusion "THEREFORE PEOPLE WHO THINK IT'S BAD ARE INSANE ARRSHFJHGBGBS FEMINISM."

    [–]Ben--Affleck 0ポイント1ポイント  (13子コメント)

    That is not true. Most male characters, in fact, are not sexualized. Some are. Most aren't. A man with muscles without a shirt is not inherently sexualized, by the way. Neither are female characters. I'll bet you haven't seen many female characters that are half dressed that weren't half dressed to be sexually titillating, though.

    This is a matter of whether simply being in shape should be considered "sexualization" or "objectification". In shape women will have more of an hourglass shape, while in shape men will have more of a V shape. The problem with her analysis is that it's an analysis of gender while focusing on how women are treated differently in what she deems to be a negative light. Like I said, there's some interesting things to be said... but she screams "self imposed victimization" and "double standards" throughout her work. I mean, look at the video I gave you as an example... comparing male and female butts! A similar idiotic video could be made about men and muscles. But an actually interesting video could be made about both, and how to address gender binary depictions reinforcing gender roles and actual sexual dimorphism in humans.

    To stop beating around the bush, here's an example of her feminism: "There’s no such thing as sexism against men. That's because sexism is prejudice + power. Men are the dominant gender with power in society."

    We don't have to talk about it in terms of whether or not it's a problem. I think these things reflect the attitudes of society (so does Anita). But nevermind that.

    It is clearly a problem to Anita.

    I think video games would be better if they weren't pandering to 13-year-old boys with hard-ons. Can we find some common ground at least on that?

    Yes. But those are target demographic. Imagine grown men attempting to shame 13 year old girls who love Twilight... sure it happens, but we don't take it seriously as an important message. Young girls like vampires with abs. Big deal. There are other novels, movies and games for everyone.

    THIS IS ANOTHER UNFAIR INTERPRETATION OF WHAT IS BEING SAID. This is why I asked you to cite specific example of exactly what she's said that you find so ludicrous. Because remember, you're not talking about disagreeing with her. You're talking about her stuff being insane. Saying "I think games would be better if the camera didn't leer at women's asses all the time" isn't insane.

    It's not insane, but that's not what she's saying. Do I really need to go through another video to find another quote? Wanna reread that one or the tweet I just quoted? There's tons more idiocy to find... not sure why people are hell bent on defending her.

    Anyway, I don't want to read your rant about feminism being full of shit. I asked you a very specific question about a very particular point, and the reason I did that is because I'd rather like to avoid getting into an essay-writing contest with you.

    You asked me for an example. I gave you some specific examples but also an overview of my position on her general stances. You focused on my general stance even though I gave you examples. You seem a little dishonest, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you're just spread thin with all the other comments you're responding to.

    Anita Sarkeesian did not say sexy women in games are bad. She's saying it's a lazy, pandering, and that how common it is reflects society's attitudes towards women.

    How does it reflect society's attitudes towards women (in a bad light) if you said earlier on that most female characters are not sexualized? Or did you mean something else from "Neither are female characters"?

    If you'd like to know why that might be bad, there's a metric fuck ton of psychology research about it. You could start here; https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/overcoming-child-abuse/201203/the-sexualization-women-and-girls

    I already explicitly acknowledged there might be important issues here beneath the surface, but a radical feminist paradigm that cherry picks to make women into victims isn't conducive to honest and productive conversations.

    What you're saying is, "I don't see why that's bad," and, having done very little research on why it might be bad yourself, you're coming to the conclusion "THEREFORE PEOPLE WHO THINK IT'S BAD ARE INSANE ARRSHFJHGBGBS FEMINISM."

    Sorry, but yes. If I'm attempting to understand why it's bad, having watched almost all her videos, and I see her mostly cherry picking and employing a sort of "can't win" feminism... yes, I see it as insane. Her feminist angle is downright silly to me: "Feminism is about the collective liberation of women as a social class. Feminism is not about personal choice."

    This is the type of feminism she promotes... where saying something like "Everything about Bayonetta's design, mechanics and characterization is created specifically for the sexual pleasure of straight male gamers" isn't seen as hyperbolic.

    I'm well aware of her "work". I'm also well aware that the subject of sexualization is interesting... but seeing it through a radical feminist lens simply does not help. It's either dishonest or insane.

    [–]Vorpal_Kitten 0ポイント1ポイント  (12子コメント)

    taking the position that women are unfairly pigeon-holed in some patriarchal conspiracy

    'The patriarchy' isn't a conspiracy, just like how evolution isn't a 'force of nature'. Both are just trends that we as humans can identify and name.

    Not sure what she's saying, because the vast majority of characters in adult games and action movies are sexualized, male or female.

    As a sex-positive bi feminist, I have to say this is just sadly untrue. Sexualized male characters are rare, and the one that are sexualized to titilate, rather than sexualized as a joke, are even more rare.

    And sexualized female characters are overpresented - I prefer women 9 times out of 10, but improbably sexy ladies don't need to fucking everywhere, y'know?


    pre-emptive edit - the majority of sexy male characters aren't sexualized - things like the (male castanic)[http://tera-online.cc/uploads/gallery/comthumb/54/castanic_m_l21.jpg] are sexualized whereas sexy male characters tend to just be well-written, like Alistair, Garrus or Batman, rather than visually sexualized.


    [–]Ben--Affleck 0ポイント1ポイント  (11子コメント)

    'The patriarchy' isn't a conspiracy, just like how evolution isn't a 'force of nature'. Both are just trends that we as humans can identify and name.

    Claiming there's no governmental conspiracy doesn't negate the existence of a government either. Try less reactionary rhetoric and more reading.

    As a sex-positive bi feminist, I have to say this is just sadly untrue. Sexualized male characters are rare, and the one that are sexualized to titilate, rather than sexualized as a joke, are even more rare.

    Is there maybe some data that could show this? I do wonder though what the difference is between sexualized as a joke and sexualized to titillate?

    And what would you recommend a game designer do? Not have always women being 10s or is it simply have more women who are scantily clad? Any recommendations for male characters? And do you want new games with new characters or you want already established games to change?

    [–]Vorpal_Kitten 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

    I think there is one other poster here that I know of who is openly feminist

    Is that me, or do I make the third?

    [–]winter-sun 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

    anyone in the public eye with a strong & controversial opinion?

    [–]Ben--Affleck 5ポイント6ポイント  (3子コメント)

    Damn... I went over to /r/badphilosophy ... is it just a bunch of undergrads that took a couple of philosophy courses and think they've got it all figured out? They're strawmanning Sam so blatantly, yet they seem to believe their shit. Are they just a more refined version of SRS? These condescending circlejerk subs really confuse me. Why do people waste their time being bullies?

    [–]jelliedsoup -1ポイント0ポイント  (1子コメント)

    Ironic post.

    [–]Ben--Affleck 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Hey. I actually just started visiting these parts so I don't know how truly ironic it is. So, out of curiosity... what is the general beef with Sam Harris? Like, what are the general strawmannings that Sam Harris fans engage in? Based on the brigading, I can imagine these arguments have been fleshed out before. Any links for some drama?

    [–]Aristodemos94 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Hitler?

    Serious answer: Muslims.

    [–]drunkentune 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Glenn Greenwald.

    [–]TheMagicSumthing 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

    The Bosnian warlord and international criminal Ratko Mladic, poor guy.

    [–]chiaotzu13 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Has anyone said noam chomsky?

    [–]masturbatingmonkies -4ポイント-3ポイント  (2子コメント)

    Donald Trump

    [–]plumshark 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

    lmao

    [–]masturbatingmonkies 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

    I don't necessarily agree with his policies but the media love trying to misreprsent him.

    [–]Antithesizer -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Ayn Rand, Pol Pot, Kenny G

    [–]rosedulo -4ポイント-3ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Mao Zedong is pretty high up there, people always cite a strawman of the great cultural revolution and take him out of context, what he was completely rational and scientific and people are offended by that.