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Video Proof of Surelock hacking (youtube.com)

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[–]turikkCSS Moderator[M] [スコア非表示] stickied comment (61子コメント)

Hey all,

Obviously this has been a hot topic for you all and one that hasn't had a clear resolution. Officially, our stance has been that we will allow cheating and hacking related posts only when irrefutable proof has been provided. If a post only serves as an accusation or discussion of the possibility of a hack existing, we remove it with the understanding that no productive discussion can really come out of it. If there is evidence that can't be denied, we'll allow the community to discuss the matter in a civilized and isolated manner.

We're not sure this is the right rule for the subreddit. We want you all to be able to discuss topics without feeling like you're being stifled by moderation, but we also don't want to enable witch-hunting or potentially damage a player's reputation due to a misunderstanding or mob mentality. Ultimately, hinging this discussion on whether or not we consider proof definite is proving to be difficult.

Moving forward, we're going to allow this thread under the clear understanding that we are not endorsing the accusations contained within, only facilitating the discussion you all partake in. We will not, under any circumstance, permit a call-to-action in the form or harassing, messaging, emailing, doxing, or spamming any communication avenue.

TL;DR - Our rule on cheating/hack posts isn't perfect, and we're actively figuring out a better way to do this. Keep discussion civil and the thread is allowed, for now, subject to change. Please feel free to message the mod team with any questions or feedback you have.

[–]dariidar 14ポイント15ポイント  (29子コメント)

Surefour's response to hackusations on his stream

[–]orze 14ポイント15ポイント  (0子コメント)

Honestly the clip in the OP is the least suspicious one, has he talked about the Tracer clips here? I don't have time to watch his whole stream but if he can play like that consistently (which he should because that's all on 1 map so it wasn't rare) with camera over mouse/keyboard and his mouse movements matching up with his aim then maybe he is legit.

[–]Milkshakes00 5ポイント6ポイント  (2子コメント)

That just hurts his credibility even more.

First thing is first, he can't replicate it. AT ALL, on the pillars that he's using as an example. And they aren't even moving targets.

Second thing, aimbots don't "instantly snap" anymore. They accelerate at a constant, high speed. I'll be honest: I've used aimbots with friends for shits and giggles in other custom games. Not Overwatch, but I imagine the aimbots work the exact same in it. His play SCREAMS aimbot in the clips throughout this thread. I made the same 'hackusations' for some CS:GO players that people thought were simply amazing, but as it turned out, were hacking. I hate to admit it, but hackers can spot hackers very easily. Seriously, download an aimbot and go on a no-VAC server of CS:Source and play with it for 10 minutes. You'll instantly be able to realize how he's doing the exact same thing. Snapping to a target is easily shown by the fact that he doesn't decelerate. He's going the same constant speed until he's exactly on top of the enemy's head, then it instantly stops. That is not natural.

Third thing, watch him play McCree on his stream. Absolutely NOWHERE near as accurate. He can't trace people as they're moving like he does in the Tracer/McCree clips.

Fourth thing, on his example of McCree's Fan on the pillars, he can't control the recoil under no pressure like he somehow did perfectly under a chaotic situation.

Last but not least, his friend is stupid. No one thinks that the Widowmaker ult is actually a wallhack.. Wtf. Plus, what's the logic of using your shots on an enemy that is clearly through a wall? There is none. "Pre-aiming" would be at the corner. Not on the Rein that is through the wall. And even then, it's useless to do such a thing, because he's behind the payload. The entire snap was a waste of effort, so why do it?

[–]Xenost54 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

His aimbot is even a bad one, I saw a lot more human aimbot which accelerate and decelerate at times. Here the pointer is totally smooth, fixed speed while snapping.

[–]Takari55Lúcio 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

His recreation demonstration was laughable.

[–]svenne 3ポイント4ポイント  (18子コメント)

Can someone say what he says? For those of us at work etc

[–]artanisthescrub 9ポイント10ポイント  (1子コメント)

He basically said "I wasn't hacking, I was just aiming"

[–]svenne 17ポイント18ポイント  (0子コメント)

Alright thanks, funny, sometimes he doesn't even aim that well as you can see in the gifs further down in the thread. Then he goes from missing the enemy completely to locking on to their head despite the totally unpredictable enemy moves.

[–]FrothyOmen 3ポイント4ポイント  (15子コメント)

Basically he said this: When you fan the hammer, if you predict the first couple bullets are gonna kill somebody, you might as well swing your aim over to another target and try to hit them with the last couple bullets. So he started on the mccree to finish him off, saw the reinhardt on widow ult, and swung over to him for the last 4 bullets of the fan. He then demonstrated an example with a couple random pillars showing the snappy movement.

[–]BeefVellington 6ポイント7ポイント  (7子コメント)

The thing is Fan the Hammer has some pretty serious spread and recoil. To track the charging Reinhardt while having the massive recoil from Fan the Hammer is pretty unlikely. I don't buy it.

[–]FrothyOmen 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yeah I'm not saying I'm convinced or anything, I was literally only giving a transcription for the guy

[–]Cormac419 -1ポイント0ポイント  (2子コメント)

He's a pro player, he gets paid to be the best at this game. He's been playing for months and is considered the best McCree in NA for a reason.

[–]BeefVellington -3ポイント-2ポイント  (1子コメント)

lmao

[–]Cormac419 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

lmao

Really? Fuck me for trying to have a conversation about this instead of just joining the knee-jerk circlejerk right?

So you think in the last few months he hasn't practiced spray transition as McCree? He literally gets paid to practice these things. I get your argument, but in CS, top players put a lot of time into perfecting spraying, transitions and flicks, why is he any different?

I'm not even saying he isn't cheating, the clips are fishy, but these are some things that should be taken into consideration is all.

[–]svenne -2ポイント-1ポイント  (6子コメント)

That would be a reasonable response... If it wasn't for the fact that the Reinhardt in question was.. Behind a freaking building, lol. Also all the other gifs posted in this thread makes it really look suspicious the way he misses enemies then out of nowhere perma-locks on to their heads.

[–]SensiSmoker 3ポイント4ポイント  (5子コメント)

What does Reinhardt being behind a building matter, his widowmaker had Wall Hacked for their team he saw him coming before he aimed at him..

[–]hyperponyTracer 10ポイント11ポイント  (0子コメント)

0:11 - 0:12 The reticle just stops dead cold on rein and immediately starts tracking him. His aim doesn't decelerate. Aimbot.

[–]svenne -1ポイント0ポイント  (3子コメント)

Makes you look like a pretty bad player if you're shooting at someone who's behind a building, if you're supposed to be a really pro player. But that alone isn't of course 100% proof or anything, but it looks suspicious. And then there's all the other gifs..

[–]discoshark 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

You are supposed to pre-aim at a enemy on the other side of the wall if you can see that enemy with Widowmaker ult, because dealing with that enemy is the next thing you want to do and you want to keep track of that enemy. He would be a pretty bad player if he started ignoring the Widow ult advantage to look less stupid in a VOD.

[–]Rodivi8 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yes, but you pre-aim past the wall where they will pop out. You never aim at the wall, because you will never be able to hit them there.

[–]VordusLucario -2ポイント-1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Im just entertaining the idea of him not hacking but if he just went for the swipe based on the widow ult that would make sense. And the building being there wouldnt really register as he is .05 sec swiping his mouse to any red on the screen

[–]Tiqalicious 3ポイント4ポイント  (2子コメント)

Here's the funny thing about that response. He was using two different lines in the scenery to represent the characters in order to show us how he did it legit, yet several times while trying to give an example, he swings wide on those markers in a way that he just isn't doing in the actual plays. I feel like THAT does more to hurt his argument than help it.

[–]kaliaforniaWaifu 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

The actual characters have bigger hitboxes than the lines in a scenery. His snaps were pretty good regardless. IDK if he is hacking but I dont think that is enough proof.

[–]Takari55Lúcio 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

This was the funniest part of his defense. He couldnt even nail his demonstration more than 25% of the time.

[–]Ukhai 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

"it would be instant like an actual aimbot"

I don't know how hacks have improved over the years, but I used to play. CS 1.6, CS:CZ, CS:S and Day of Defeat. And if anyone has played those games, dealt with hackers on pub servers, and have seen videos online about the makers selling their aimbots, they had settings to make the autoaim as subtle as the user wanted it to. This was years ago, like 2004?

Would take that argument with a grain of salt.

[–]TheSystem_IsDownSymmetra 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

In this clip his shots kick back and go up each pillar. In all the hack videos he is 100% on their head with no kickback. The gifs below are beyond suspicious.

[–]Oldman76Soldier: 76 -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

That lock 100% went straight to rein's head, does he not know where his head hit box is still after all this time? Its not definitive proof, but definitely suspicious, even more so with the recent gifs posted.

[–]probo1 14ポイント15ポイント  (4子コメント)

Moving forward, we're going to allow this thread under the clear understanding that we are not endorsing the accusations contained within, only facilitating the discussion you all partake in.

I would have thought that goes without saying, you can allow people to say stuff and it doesn't mean it's endorsed. The reason why I joined reddit many years ago was because of the freedom of speech, it's the best part of reddit.

Allow a little bit of chaos and crazyness for a platform of integrity and freedom.

[–]turikkCSS Moderator[M] 15ポイント16ポイント  (2子コメント)

I wanted to be sure its clear that, since our rule was "We allow it if its definitive proof" this was not the case here. That part of the rule is not very foolproof on its own so we're going back to the drawing board.

[–]RealQuickPoint 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

What would be definitive proof? Someone live streaming from the account saying "I'm hacking right now with xyz hacks"?

[–]juru1876Reach for the sky. -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

I agree- this thread is a little out of hand though. While it's suspicious, this is not definite proof right now.

[–]Savv3 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

not to just throw oil in a fire or something like that, but id call freedom of speech "was" the best part of reddit.

countless examples of heavy censorship ruined that freedom a lot. im happy this thread atleast stays up, kudos to overwatch mods (ill keep an eye on you, dont mess up)

[–]Shimond95Pharah 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

While I support your interpretation of the global reddit 'no witchhunting' rule I have to point out this is the opposite stance you guys take from every other gaming subreddit I've been in. They allow no posting of 'cheaters' 'hackers' or 'exploiters' regardless if it's 'absolute proof' or not.

[–]ReileyjeZenyatta 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Have you guys on the mod team just thought of making it more open like r/globaloffensive ?

One thing to point out is that cheaters will be a big problem in Overwatch and reddit posts like these that promote discussion are GOOD. Some posts won't be great, but it's worth having those if it means keeping the integrity of the game.

Also, this proof isn't irrefutable, so we are contradicting ourselves with this rule.

We don't have to strive to be the league subreddit when it comes to witch hunting, because that is one of the worst gaming subreddits according to a lot of people I heard from.

[–]TheSystem_IsDownSymmetra 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

The current policy is the right one. People need to know it's out there and a big deal, and you policy protects against baseless accusations.

[–]SynaptixBrainstorm 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

How about making a seperate website which should be called something like overwatch-blacklist.com or something, which is a place to post proof and proof requested as well as personal gameplay from good players.

Just like the one from Blacklight Retribution. Its the best way for the community to make constructive argumentations about this topic without clustering the reddit frontpage with that.

[–]Stupidconspiracies -7ポイント-6ポイント  (13子コメント)

I believe this is a mistake given that his name is available and the podium has been given. Be aware of the podium. You are now media, there is a sense that you choose to give a microphone to people.

[–]turikkCSS Moderator[M] 5ポイント6ポイント  (12子コメント)

We're aware. We also are a user-driven medium and deleting threads doesn't do anything other than de-list them from the subreddit. Even if we could completely censor this, it doesn't feel like the right choice.

On Reddit everyone has a microphone - that's the whole idea. We're here to moderate, not create.

Appreciate the input though - we're thinking a lot about this one.

[–]ahmidaPharah 0ポイント1ポイント  (9子コメント)

Sorry but I have to ask, does the mod team even have qualification to judge if a post has "irrefutable" evidence to prove hacking? Do you even have someone on team with at the very minimum a low tier career in competitive FPS beyond csgo? To me this just looks like a bunch of CS players (which is arguably one of the lowest skill cap fps games in terms of shooting mechanics) who don't understand what tracking and the like are.

It seems like with your series of posts you actually believe the accusations and letting reddit slander a good player. (Disclosure: I played alot of titanfall with surefour I am aware of his skill.)

[–]turikkCSS Moderator[M] 3ポイント4ポイント  (8子コメント)

Sorry but I have to ask, does the mod team even have qualification to judge if a post has "irrefutable" evidence to prove hacking?

We're not sure.

Do you even have someone on team with at the very minimum a low tier career in competitive FPS beyond csgo?

Probably not to the standard you're expecting.

It seems like with your series of posts you actually believe the accusations and letting reddit slander a good player. (Disclosure: I played alot of titanfall with surefour I am aware of his skill.)

Other than reiterating that we're not doing that, I am not sure how else to say it.

[–]unbirthdayhatterHEROES NEVER DIE! -2ポイント-1ポイント  (7子コメント)

By not doing anything about the posts, you are doing something. I don't know if he's hacking or not, but by allowing all these posts to go up without actual proof, stating yourself the mods can't tell if it's "irrefutable" or not means that as mods there isn't a clear line drawn and thus you're allowing what amounts to a witch hunt in this community; which I'm sure you guys know are pretty terrible in FPS communities.

Maybe he is cheating, maybe he isn't but the only people could really know are someone on his PC or Blizzard imo. Outside of that it's just flooding his stream and harassment, which I really am sad to see in what was supposed to be a friendly community.

[–]hyperponyTracer 3ポイント4ポイント  (6子コメント)

hey you 21st century geniuses, this is an internet forum where we can post things like this and talk about them.. THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT OF A FORUM. it's not communist Russia where shit get policed to the point of tyranny. you don't like it? complain to the Constitution buddy

[–]unbirthdayhatterHEROES NEVER DIE! 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

This is the silliest reply I've ever read. I'm not even going to bother with a real reply. Congratulations. You're very silly.

[–]discoshark 1ポイント2ポイント  (4子コメント)

The U.S. Constitution has very little to do with what you can and cannot write about on a private online forum. That was not its concern and remains not being its concern.

[–]hyperponyTracer 0ポイント1ポイント  (3子コメント)

It also doesn't say that online forums can be freely censored. And to censor a forum is to defeat a forums purpose where information is exchanged.

[–]discoshark 3ポイント4ポイント  (2子コメント)

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

The relevant part there is "Congress shall make no law". There's nothing in there about the internal rules of a private institution.

[–]Stupidconspiracies -2ポイント-1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Censorship isn't saying we will not be the podium for this.

If one were to create a space to call out cheaters that would be more appropriate. This space is not "call out cheaters" is "Overwatch" Maybe advertise the "call out cheaters on overwatch" sub but it's a mistake to allow it on the main one.

Censorship is not the golf channel not playing basketball highlights or the godfather movies, it's just not the right place for the content.

[–]hyperponyTracer 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

It's the perfect place because this has everything to do with Overwatch, it's community and it's future. I really wish people were allowed 1 account per ip so we can get rid of spammy fanboys like yourself. Nice name.

[–]DesikzLúcio -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

Actually nobody can tell of they are cheating or not, we have to wait until they show up in lan tournaments, for what is worth I don't think surefour, taimou or any other pro gamer is cheating, stop the witch hunts untill lans

[–]Fangthorn -4ポイント-3ポイント  (2子コメント)

He is just that good. He tracks all the time the same as in those videos, locked on to jumping targets etc.

Pretty routine for him.

[–]Gandalfs_BeardMercy 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Nice try Surefour, care to explain why he snaps to a Reinhardt's head and fires at him when he's still behind the wall?

[–]ILSATS -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yeah cause he uses the aimbot routinely.