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Livev2.1/1.6 Beta Megathread (self.EliteDangerous)

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[–]ObjT -22ポイント-21ポイント  (42子コメント)

It may be a small thing, and probably contentious, but I hate that there are more female engineers than male engineers at the moment. In the real world, that ratio would be 20/1, not 2/3.

Companies are too eager to present 'equal ideals' rather than just the reality. Politically correct nonsense annoys me.

edit: I'm not saying men and women are unequal, just that there are differences. These differences are well established in mainstream science so I'm not sure why I'm being attacked for mentioning them.

[–]Lrj_Lrj 6ポイント7ポイント  (5子コメント)

But having more men than women is perfectly acceptable, because it's fine if it's us, but not if it's them! /s

Seriously, why the hell is this a problem?

[–]ObjT -5ポイント-4ポイント  (4子コメント)

But having more men than women is perfectly acceptable

I'm saying that it is more acceptable because it better reflects reality. I would feel similarly if the roles were reversed.

[–]laz777Keilbasa [EIC] 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Reality in 1000 years?

[–]Lrj_Lrj 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

It only reflects reality because for years women have been shunned off from doing jobs like these, not because they can't. There is now a focus on encouraging women to do these jobs and not follow the stereotypical gender roles that have been forced on them for years up until now, so in the future the gender of people in these jobs will probably be near 1:1.

[–]ObjT -2ポイント-1ポイント  (1子コメント)

And I have linked a few studies that shows the women will never be on parity with men in STEM due to neurological differences in general.

[–]Lrj_Lrj 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

You haven't linked anything, and how the hell does a having your brain function in a slightly different way to someone of the opposite gender fundamentally prevent you from being able to do a certain task what so ever? News flash, everyone's brains function in slightly different ways.

Just because some article said that women on average have a few minor neurological differences compared to men, doesn't mean they are incapable of doing something. You believe this because you think that the gender stereotyping I mention in my last comment exists for this reason alone. If it did, we wouldn't currently be working on abolishing it.

[–]sushi_cwTannik Seldon 3ポイント4ポイント  (5子コメント)

This is a really silly thing to get upset over, especially in a far-future fantasy world.

[–]ObjT -5ポイント-4ポイント  (4子コメント)

Maybe it is.

I'd wager, however, that the decision to make engineers majority female was a political one, rather than a lore one. And that to me, makes me annoyed.

[–]sushi_cwTannik Seldon 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

Life is full of real problems and outrages. This doesn't even move the dial on the "things worth being irate about" meter.

He who takes offense when no offense is intended is a fool, and he who takes offense when offense is intended is a greater fool.

[–]ObjT -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

I think it's worth a few internet comments for one of my favourite games. Hardly skin off my nose.

[–]wuhwuhwolvesHrist -1ポイント0ポイント  (1子コメント)

We all know how much FDev is involved in politics /eyeroll

[–]ObjT -3ポイント-2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Gender politics is a huge consideration for any game these days, unfortunately. You should have seen the controversy when FD added boobs to the female pilot.

[–]wuhwuhwolvesHrist 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Gross. Go back to your cave.

[–]cf858cf 1ポイント2ポイント  (6子コメント)

Companies are too eager to present 'equal ideals' rather than just the reality. Politically correct nonsense annoys me.

Reality was created by companies representing unequal ideas. The reality of more men in engineering as opposed to women is BECAUSE of the choices made in the past by male dominated societies telling women they can't do this or that. Your 'reality' is really just the outcome of a flawed and unjust system.

[–]ObjT -5ポイント-4ポイント  (5子コメント)

Your 'reality' is really just the outcome of a flawed and unjust system.

Then how do you explain places like India having better female participation in science than Sweden?

In fact, this is a trend. The more gender equal a country, the more likely women don't choose science as a profession.

[–]cf858cf 1ポイント2ポイント  (4子コメント)

In fact, this is a trend. The more gender equal a country, the more likely women don't choose science as a profession.

Where does this come from? Can you link to a source that indicates this is a trend or where research has been conducted? I don't mind having an informed discussion about it, but you need to back up your statements.

[–]CMDR_Welles 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

He's talking out of his ass. The percentage of women who goes into science is steadily rising in sweden. In many of the high profile , 5-year Master of Science programs you'll often find more women then men. Sweden is also considered the most gender equal nation in the world.

[–]ObjT 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

If you're interested in this sort of thing, I recommend watching the gender equality paradox documentary.

On Github, data shows that developers in India are 6.5 times more likely to be female than male when compared to Sweden. 3 times more likely comparatively to the US.

Women in overall science statistics can be found here.

[–]cf858cf 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I just replied to your other set of worthless links to prove your point.

And sure enough, the Women in Science link you have here has Sweden at 37% and India is N/A.

[–]SzorenyTom Jefferson Jones 1ポイント2ポイント  (15子コメント)

In 1300 years the ratio would probably be more like 1/1, but whatev.

hell I bet it'll be 1/1 in 100 years, or even 50.

[–]ObjT -8ポイント-7ポイント  (14子コメント)

I doubt that very much, there are distinct differences in the brain on a neurological level, between a man and a women.

Foetal testosterone (how much male hormone you were exposed to in the womb) is a predictor of career path in both males and females. More FT, the higher chances of going into science or engineering.

EDIT: This a well known phenomena, hardly something I just made up. Digit ratio is another sexual dimorphic attribute that relates to academic performance.

[–][削除されました]  (9子コメント)

[removed]

    [–]SpyTec13SpyTec - Wiki Admin[M] 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

    Thank you for your comment! Unfortunately, it has been removed for the following reason(s):

    • Not being respectful.

    If you feel this action was taken in error, would like better clarification or need further assistance, please message the mods (do not reply to this comment). Please remember to check the rules page before doing so. Thank you!

    [–]ObjT -4ポイント-3ポイント  (6子コメント)

    I am asserting that there are neurological differences between men and women that generate a numerical disparity in STEM positions.

    That assertion is corroborated by a number of reputable studies.

    http://www.nature.com/news/2007/070911/full/news070910-3.html

    those who had experienced higher levels of testosterone in the womb generally have better pattern recognition and numerical skills

    http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v442/n7098/full/nature04966.html#B3

    several other studies showing that adult males have an IQ advantage of around 4–6 IQ points

    http://www.pnas.org/content/105/38/14615.full

    men have a significantly higher synaptic density than women in all cortical layers of the temporal neocortex

    But please, attack my character for when I simply stand by the conclusions of science. If you don't like our reality, why don't you go choose another?

    [–]cf858cf 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

    those who had experienced higher levels of testosterone in the womb generally have better pattern recognition and numerical skills

    That study was set up to show links between testosterone in the womb and autistic traits. The finding about pattern recognition was in the context of 'traits commonly present in autistic children', it wasn't in any way linked to 'skills in math and engineering later in life'. In fact, the method used to assess the child's abilities was 'questionnaires filled out by parents' - that's a weakness in the study method compared to measuring it directly.

    several other studies showing that adult males have an IQ advantage of around 4–6 IQ points

    The link you provide there is to a criticism on a paper regarding this. If you follow those links, there is actually a back-and-forth between the researchers as to the validity of the finding. I'd hardly consider a contested finding like this a 'fact' to build your argument on. And it also has no relevance to 'skills in math and engineering'.

    men have a significantly higher synaptic density than women in all cortical layers of the temporal neocortex

    A very interesting study about synaptic density and gender differences. But again, where is the relevance to your point. As the authors of the study note in the discussion:

    The larger number of synaptic connections in men does not necessarily mean that all cortical circuits in this region are more complex than in women. Rather, specific circuits may be more complex in the male brain. The temporal lobe is a complex, associative, and multiintegrative cortical region (ref. 17; for a review see ref. 34). Therefore, the functional consequences of the differences in synaptic circuitry observed here are particularly difficult, if not impossible, to correlate with specific functions related to men or women.

    They are basically saying that because of the complexities involved in that region of the brain, you can't make any conclusions about the effect on male/female functioning. So they are saying you can't make the claim you are making that it's a proof point for 'men are better at math/engineering' because of this synaptic density difference.

    You are doing great using science to make a point not supported by any of it.

    [–]SzorenyTom Jefferson Jones 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

    <surpressed laugh>...uh, sorry carry on.

    [–]Hoodeloo 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

    If we pursue this line of thought all the way to its limits, its probably ridiculous to assume that we'll even have a gender binary in 1300 years, or that individual neurology won't itself be heavily engineered at that point.

    [–]IHaTeD2Backer -2ポイント-1ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Wow ...

    [–]BPOPRDubstep Dragon -4ポイント-3ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Oh word?

    [–]BPOPRDubstep Dragon -2ポイント-1ポイント  (4子コメント)

    /r/redpill is over there buddy

    [–]ObjT -3ポイント-2ポイント  (3子コメント)

    Really? I'm a redpiller because I mentioned there are differences between men and women? If I had instead talked about how women have better verbal intelligence or superior micro-motor processing, I'm sure you wouldn't feel so outraged.

    If you want women in games to be men with boobs, that's fine, but that's where our opinions diverge.

    [–]UnauthorizedUsername 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

    The problem is that these sort of arguments are used all over to justify sexism -- whether that's your intention or not. So there's a bit of backlash against any of those kinds of statements, because of where they quickly and easily lead.

    Yes, there are differences between men and women. Some of these differences may equate to some men choosing different careers than some women. The problem is that it's then pushed to invalidate women in typically male fields and vice versa. Look at society's perception of male nurses or female soldiers for two examples. It starts with a relatively harmless observation: Men are generally physically stronger while women are generally more empathetic, and individuals will generally pick careers that cater more to there strengths. Therefor, men will pick careers as soldiers more often, and women will pick careers as nurses more often.

    But it quickly moves to: Only men should be soldiers because women aren't as strong and a man would be better suited at that role. Only women should be nurses because men aren't as empathetic and a woman would be better at that role.

    [–]BPOPRDubstep Dragon -1ポイント0ポイント  (1子コメント)

    You're kind of saying that women CAN'T be engineers because biology which is misogynist as fuck.

    [–]ObjT -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Where did I say that? All I said was that there are more male than female engineers. Better engineers are more likely to be male. In fact, in terms of interest, men outnumber women hugely. The more 'equal' a society is, the more interest for STEM wanes among girls.

    [–]muitosabao -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

    In the year 3300? Dude, cmon.