上位 200 件のコメント全て表示する 353

[–]DavidShrier[S] 8ポイント9ポイント  (12子コメント)

/u/Vaultoro writes:

Money laundering is a relatively minuscule problem in any healthy economy. Trying to tie KYC to the unit of exchange itself is disgusting and entirely evil. There are bad governments in this world, and people researching at MIT surely know this yeah? Please use your mental capacity, resources and energy to help make bitcoin more anonymous not less. Help individuals who live in overpowering cultures, assist the millions of women who live under domination and not allowed to drive or have bank accounts by their religious husbands, help people that live in dictatorships or fascist regimes, help individuals that live in countries with crippling currency controls to exit peacefully using an open source protocol! Don't help the bullies, thugs and power freaks. We have TOR because we can all agree that there are a lot of legitimate reasons to use it. If TOR were to be compromised, it would endanger the many people using it for good. We would not dream of putting KYC abilities baked into TOR because of a short-sighted need to help our "good" government. While MIT might consider their government to be good, fine, and in need of help raising money, your actions WILL kill people that live in countries that are politically sensitive or extremely religious. I know academics lean largely left to big government because they get funded by the state, but please use your academic power for good and not evil. Work towards more anonymity not less. Governments just have to do better old school police work to catch bad guys, leave money, which has only recently been used as a tracking mechanism out of it. At the end of the day, bad people will use a more fungible cryptocurrency if bitcoin is compromised. Try visiting Venezuela, Zimbabwe, Angola, Iran, or even China, too see what their government would do with ultimate KYC control.

[–]DavidShrier[S] 2ポイント3ポイント  (11子コメント)

thomas I'm not going to address moral questions - no one is forcing you to use ChainAnchor, bitcoin, cash, etc.

david I'm not sure how we leap from KYC/AML to bombing people in others countries. But, as noted in our header, if the community doesn't figure out how to (a) address compliance with the law while (b) seeking to change the law, the regulators will probably come in and make life uncomfortable. Point in fact most of the companies you are already doing business with in bitcoin have some form of compliance to avoid being shut down. While I could argue (as I have in fact elsewhere) that AML/KYC doesn't work too well, it's what is going to be applied. So let's figure out a smart way to deal with it before a bad solution is imposed on bitcoin. NOTE, ChainAnchor isn't that solution, it's not for bitcoin. But Windhover provides bitcoin-relevant guidelines.

john Windhover creates accountability for the government as well - they can't access personal info without probable cause, a warrant, etc. - and they themselves are subject to oversight.

[–]Evolvemredditor for 26 days 14ポイント15ポイント  (3子コメント)

Point in fact most of the companies you are already doing business with in bitcoin have some form of compliance to avoid being shut down

Hi David, im a 14+ year FOREX industry vet. If people want to see the future of bitcoin regulation, take a look at what happened to the FX industry in the US over the last 16 years. If Bitcoin is declared a currency of any sort, the required net capital to even be in the game will require millions of collateral and be under the microscope of the NFA watchdog. Technology should not be developed to cater to government regulation because there's not just one government. Every jurisdiction has its own rules. Bitcoin businesses will simply move offshore just like the FX industry did and the jurisdictions with friendly regulation will gain that business. US fumbled in the FX industry and the UK, Cyprus, Malta and AUS regions dominated the FX space. So my point is, no one will shut down, business will simple move. Regulation and corp jurisdiction is a competitive global marketplace. Keep the technology pure and separate from regulation so the regulation marketplace can do its own thing. The big factor with bitcoin is, you don't need a passport to make a bitcoin address and there is nothing that can prevent that.

[–]DavidShrier[S] 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

I think this is a sound prediction of what may result from incautious regulation of Bitcoin.

Some jurisdictions are already realigning themselves to be more congenial for exactly this purpose, as I understand it.

[–]Polycephal_Lee 12ポイント13ポイント  (0子コメント)

the regulators will probably come in and make life uncomfortable.

That's a chance I'm willing to take. What are they going to do exactly? I don't fear them, they cannot censor my transactions or take my bitcoin.

We like bitcoin because we can do what we want, there's no permission to ask from anyone. We don't trust the people running the legacy banking system, we don't want their interference. They have institutionalized fraud and are the definition of corruption, they do not belong in an honest system, even as a layer on top of it.

Go make a permissioned blockchain (ordinary database) and have fun with your permission stuff there. We don't want it.

[–]PolarOneredditor for 2 months 10ポイント11ポイント  (5子コメント)

if the community doesn't figure out how to (a) address compliance with the law while (b) seeking to change the law, the regulators will probably come in and make life uncomfortable.

You are a defeatist scum who tries to win an argument via presenting a false dialectic, projecting a "lesser of two evils". You draw the picture like there is something wrong and broken in Bitcoin. From the perspective of your area of focus, there is zero problem with Bitcoin. The problem is you, the subservient and implicitly threatening mindset you operate on.

[–]ray-jones 17ポイント18ポイント  (6子コメント)

There's a simple fact about money-laundering that I think doesn't get enough notice in any debate:

No money-laundering can occur unless some other crime precedes it.

All the efforts expended on detecting and stamping out money-laundering (which we know imposes heavy costs on innocent people -- see "Last Week Tonight with John Oliver: Civil Forfeiture", or "Stop and seize" articles in the Washinton Post, or the article "Taken" in the New Yorker) could be more profitably used to focus on the actual crimes that precede money-lanudering.

We all, including the researchers patticipating in this AMA, should definitely ask: Why such a focus on money-landering, even at such a heavy cost to innocent people?

Stamp out the substantive crime, and you don't need to worry about money-laundering.

It's a simple cost-benefit issue.

[–]DavidShrier[S] 2ポイント3ポイント  (5子コメント)

Well, there's a bigger issue: my understanding is that the AML systems widely used don't work terribly well, from talking to people at large banks. False positives galore, not much detection. I haven't studied this quantitatively but suggest that the area as a whole needs to be revisited.

[–]gr8ful4 6ポイント7ポイント  (4子コメント)

[–]DavidShrier[S] -2ポイント-1ポイント  (2子コメント)

No, I didn't. I would be curious to know if this was conscious choice, incompetence, or bad systems - no one sets out to lose $1.9bn.

[–]grabberfish [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

What do you mean "lose $1.9bn"? According to reports:

The bank was fined...a record $1.9bn. But this was less than five weeks' income for HSBC’s American subsidiary.

And if you think this was a punishment, it must be borne in mind that:

HSBC was caught, for handling a staggering $376bn of suspect money for an American bank, Wachovia.

I'm guessing that HSBC tends to charge more than 0.5% for its money laundering services. They made a lot of money from this criminal activity, and some might say that in doing this business with the drug cartels that HSBC literally got away with murder.

[–]BitcoinArtist 40ポイント41ポイント  (36子コメント)

We also note Joi Ito had an interesting blog post about AML/KYC and cryptocurrency. Our view is that if you don't engage regulators early, they will regulate without consulting you...forewarned is forearmed.

Clearly you've not heard of the mess that is the BitLicense. The community engaged with Lawsky and was rewarded with crippling regulation. Lawsky immediately resigned to start a consulting company specializing in compliance with BitLicense.

Engaging with these regulators is participating in their revolving door corruption schemes.

[–]DavidShrier[S] 1ポイント2ポイント  (11子コメント)

Yup, BitLicense was a mess. Regulators struggle as well with new areas of tech.

This is why it's important to help educate them vs ignoring them and hoping they go away.

"Garbage in, garbage out"

[–]throckmortonsign 10ポイント11ポイント  (10子コメント)

The problem with this was the BitLicense was proceeded with a 2 day committee which was convened and people such as Dr. Ed Felton (now Deputy US CTO) and Dr. Susan Athey giving prepared speeches and answered questions. It was live broadcast and I watched the entire thing. They, to their credit, repeatedly stressed that Bitcoin was a young technology and overly burdensome regulation would be ill-advised. Yet, the regulations that resulted (which specifically excluded banks - supposedly since they already were under more stringent guidelines) turned out to be overly burdensome. Several Bitcoin companies had to be shuttered or moved to a different state. Many Bitcoin based companies now specifically exclude NY residents due to there inability to comply with those regulations. The output may have been "garbage", but the input was not.

[–]DavidShrier[S] 2ポイント3ポイント  (9子コメント)

Another post in this thread pointed out that although BitLicense didn't work, other jurisdictions more successfully have addressed Bitcoin. I look at the UK, Canada and Estonia as interesting examples among others.

[–]throckmortonsign 8ポイント9ポイント  (3子コメント)

That's a good point. I'm knowledgeable about who testified at UK (the Multibit developers IIRC) and Canada (Andreas Antonopolous) which may be partly responsible for the more sane regulations. I know for a fact that Andreas specifically stressed the need for next-to-no regulations in the Canada senate. In the US Senator Coburn and Shumer (I think) had a hearing on digital currencies, at that time several senators expressed that very little if any regulatory guidance would be coming from legislative levels specifically citing the Internet as an example of where freedoms were allowed to flourish for some time. At that time, the FINCEN officer testified that she felt they had adequate delegated authority to regulate Bitcoin.

Personally, "hands off" approach is the only thing that makes any regulatory sense at this time. KYC/AML already exists at the exchange level. If they "regulate" too hard they are going to be dealing with ring signature-based and zero knowledge cryptocurrencies sooner rather than later.

[–]EncryptionPrincess 5ポイント6ポイント  (2子コメント)

It should be noted that regulatory compliance is still possible with ring signature-based and zero knowledge cryptocurrencies. (see existing Monero view key functionality). However privacy decisions remain under complete control of the user.

Bitcoin can adopt new features to make it easy for users to voluntarily comply with regulations. Bribing miners to censor transactions will never be accepted by the bitcoin community.

[–]keystrike [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

Estonia, really?

It sure is an "interesting example" -- from Wikipedia:

"The Estonian Central bank refers to bitcoin as a "problematic scheme" and "Ponzi scheme".[55] The Estonian Financial Intelligence Unit stated that every person who exchanges any amount of bitcoin requires a license and that every person who trades more than 1000 Euro per months needs to be met in person and a copy of id made and kept.[56]"

[–]47763cd8-4e43-4a75-8redditor for 9 days 10ポイント11ポイント  (6子コメント)

Lawsky immediately resigned to start a consulting company specializing in compliance with BitLicense.

Not a corrupt fascist at all. Not...at...all. /s

[–]DavidShrier[S] -7ポイント-6ポイント  (4子コメント)

As opposed to those who make money sowing FUD and then consulting about it.

Disclosure: I make $0 consulting on Bitcoin.

[–]nullcGreg Maxwell - Bitcoin Expert 21ポイント22ポイント  (3子コメント)

As opposed to those who make money sowing FUD and then consulting about it.

For the avoidance of doubt, who are you referring to here?

[–]DavidShrier[S] -2ポイント-1ポイント  (12子コメント)

BitLicense hasn't worked to well.

Won't stop regulators from other activities.

Do you propose ignoring them until they make it so you can't? (This is a serious question) what do you suggest?

[–]Coinosphere 13ポイント14ポイント  (9子コメント)

How about ignoring them until they become irrelevant?

[–]DavidShrier[S] -1ポイント0ポイント  (8子コメント)

Historically that hasn't worked well.

[–]Frogolocalypse 15ポイント16ポイント  (6子コメント)

I find this attitude very strange, especially from an American, and an American academic at that. I'm not talking about the 'American revolution', but about the American constitution. The 1st and 2nd amendments (as an example) aren't about what you have permission to do, but about what the government has permission to do in your name. You don't have permission to speak freely, the government doesn't have permission to stop you. It's not that you have permission to have guns, it's that your government doesn't have the permission to remove them.

It's not up to the users of bitcoin (or anything) to define the box that they live in. It's up to the government to put forward policy so that it may be reviewed and rejected as required and as is permissible under the existing laws and the constitution.

You shouldn't be helping the government to develop rules. You should be challenging them.

[–]DavidShrier[S] -2ポイント-1ポイント  (5子コメント)

Well, we are prohibited from lobbying. But you aren't.

[–]Frogolocalypse 14ポイント15ポイント  (4子コメント)

Crticism is not lobbying, as you should know? Perhaps you should wander up the corridor and have a chat with Professor Chomsky about the difference?

[–]DavidShrier[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (3子コメント)

Yup. And in my AMA post above, I link some criticism from Joi Ito that I personally agree with.

[–]Frogolocalypse [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

I'm not one of the people who is needlessly negative, but I have to say that everything I've read that you've contributed in this thread sounds like you're representing the interests of regulators, and specifically American regulators, as opposed to advocating for the interests of bitcoin users.

[–]DavidShrier[S] [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

Hadn't meant to give that impression. I actually don't have a side in this fight, other than to say that bitcoin developers have helped pioneer novel technology (which I think is good), and bitcoin business people are trying to make that sustainable (which I think is good). But I don't think regulators are intrinsically evil, which appears to put me in the minority here.

[–]mplsguy369 15ポイント16ポイント  (0子コメント)

History has never seen the likes of Bitcoin before...

[–]bitusher 25ポイント26ポイント  (0子コメント)

I suggest increasing bitcoins Fungibility and security so regulators cannot corrupt or control it and simultaneously educating the public towards the unethical actions of those that attempt to reduce its fungibility and sovereignty.

[–]um_ya 10ポイント11ポイント  (0子コメント)

Ignoring them is better than doing their job for them.

[–]waxwing 22ポイント23ポイント  (19子コメント)

Our view is that if you don't engage regulators early, they will regulate without consulting you...forewarned is forearmed.

Do you think Satoshi should have "consulted with regulators early"?

For a clue as to the correct answer, see: egold, liberty reserve and many others.

[–]DavidShrier[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (18子コメント)

How many people use those?

The attitude of regulators, in my experience, is to focus when something gets big enough to matter. Regulation lags technology.

[–]Coinosphere 21ポイント22ポイント  (1子コメント)

For you to not know the history of egold and liberty reserve is very telling. You're basically wearing a huge sign on your forehead letting us all see that you have no idea how bitcoin got popular or why so many people like us are passion about it.

[–]waxwing 15ポイント16ポイント  (13子コメント)

How many people use those?

You mean egold, liberty reserve? None now, because they were shut down with "extreme prejudice". I believe both of them had a fair number of users before that, though.

[–]DavidShrier[S] -8ポイント-7ポイント  (12子コメント)

This is my point. Don't create a target that gets shut down. Help drive enlightened policy, help change laws you don't agree with.

[–]giszmo 10ポイント11ポイント  (3子コメント)

This is my point. Don't create a target that gets shut down. Help drive enlightened policy, help change laws you don't agree with.

I'm speechless. Is /u/DavidShrier a troll, trying to poke us as hard he can?

[–]packetinspector 9ポイント10ポイント  (3子コメント)

As Balaji Srinivasan (and others) have pointed out, when you're dissatisfied with the status quo your two choices are voice or exit.

Bitcoin is exit, not voice.

[–]DavidShrier[S] -3ポイント-2ポイント  (2子コメント)

As long as you are a citizen of a country with tight controls on money, you haven't exited anything. But that's an interesting point of view.

[–]buzztiaan [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

-no- nation has such tight controls over money that they can prevent yolosexy anon bitcoin accounts

[–]No-btc-classicredditor for 1 month [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Dude have you even read the Cyphernomicon? Why are you even involved with this? Are you sure this isn't some huge troll? I am speechless...

[–]UpGoNinja 13ポイント14ポイント  (0子コメント)

Don't create a target that gets shut down.

Are you referring to Bitcoin here?

[–]RufusYoakum 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

Join the mafia and work within the system. The system is bent in a way that can't be fixed.

[–]CatatonicMan 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Government, like science, advances one funeral at a time.

I, for one, don't want to wait for all the corrupt idiots to die off. That'll take way too long, and they'll probably end up being replaced by other corrupt idiots anyway.

[–]maaku7Mark Friedenbach - Bitcoin Expert [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Or, make a technology that can't get shut down. See: Napster vs Bittorrent. (One of those actually succeeded in changing the music industry. Care to guess which?)

[–]glibbertarianredditor for 24 days 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

Right... By which point it's too late for them to stop it anyway. If you're going to do anything with regulators make it misdirection.

[–]DavidShrier[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I wouldn't endorse that approach myself, but assuming you are in a representational voting jurisdiction - it's your choice how you approach this.

[–]nullcGreg Maxwell - Bitcoin Expert 229ポイント230ポイント x2 (73子コメント)

I received a leaked copy of your early drafts, marked full of "Confidential" and "Do not distribute". The party that provided it to me was concerned with an existential risk to Bitcoin created by this work.

The document's abstract stated the following:

We present the ChainAnchor architecture that adds an identity and privacy-preserving layer above the blockchain, either the private blockchain or the public Blockchain in Bitcoin

In total the document mentioned Bitcoin by name 85 times.

Later in this description,

Here ChainAnchor is deployed as an overlay above the current public and permissionless Blockchain. The goal of the overlay approach is not to create a separate chain, but rather use the current permissionless Blockchain (in Bitcoin) to carry permissioned-transactions relating to Users in ChainAnchor in such a way that non-ChainAnchor nodes are oblivious to the transactions belonging to a permissioned-group. We use the example of the current Bitcoin blockchain as the underlying blockchain due to the fact that today it is the only operational blockchain that has achieved scale.

and

In ChainAnchor a successful miner receives a further additional reward for completing a block consisting only of permissioned-transactions

On the basis of the description in the text I agreed with my source that your teams proposal was an existential risk to the Bitcoin system and I immediately began work on technology which could be used to block its implementation. The fact that I believe I've found a set of tools which would stop it is the primary reason that I didn't sound an alarm over this as well.

Since the initial criticisms of your work were published these references to Bitcoin have been scrubbed from the document and one of the authors has been removed.

With the above in mind, perhaps you can tell me why I shouldn't consider MIT's aggressive denials that this technology was also intended for Bitcoin as an insult to all of our intelligence?

Wouldn't it be better to simply say that you received some feedback from Bitcoin experts that let you realize the technology would not be useful for Bitcoin?

[–]kyletorpey 22ポイント23ポイント  (23子コメント)

Hey Greg. I talked to David from MIT and Peter Todd the past week or so and came up with this: https://bitcoinmagazine.com/articles/the-real-story-behind-the-mit-chainanchor-project-for-bitcoin-1462288281

It appears they tried to apply it to Bitcoin but then realized it wouldn't work. David did seem unwilling to admit there was any thought of incorporating ChainAnchor into Bitcoin at first. Why he didn't want to make that admission at first would be speculation on my part.

[–]DavidShrier[S] -17ポイント-16ポイント  (16子コメント)

Hi Kyle,

I answered every question you asked. "Want to make that admission" is pretty biased and suggests intent. Your statement "they tried to apply it to Bitcoin", as positioned by you, is a subjective and inaccurate way of describing scientific rigor.

I appreciate that Peter makes for a juicy source given his method of provocation, but at least make some effort at keeping facts straight.

[–]kyletorpey 15ポイント16ポイント  (12子コメント)

David, you were posting on here about how ChainAnchor never had anything to do with Bitcoin. And you kept saying the same thing to me until I pointed to specific parts of the draft where applying it to Bitcoin is specifically explained.

I'm not sure what the reason was, but it was misleading. That is clear for anyone to see.

You did try to apply it to Bitcoin and decided against it. You and Thomas both told me this and it's in the article. I'm not sure how that's debatable.

[–]BitcoinSlayerredditor for 3 months [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

Listen, this ChainAnchor thing just got gmax'd, it's game over. Know Your Core, we don't fuck with KYC, so stick to regulating exchanges. If you want to see this at a protocol level, contact Gavin, he may assist you with some help.

[–]DavidShrier[S] -12ポイント-11ポイント  (38子コメント)

That same document you "received" were posted on our website. We sometimes fail to update document headers. Who did you "receive" it from?

[–]nullcGreg Maxwell - Bitcoin Expert 47ポイント48ポイント  (8子コメント)

When I received the paper I searched the internet for the title and strings from the abstract and found no hits. The most recent internet archive snapshot of your site prior to the time I received it did not show it: https://web.archive.org/web/20150921231901/http://connection.mit.edu/research/ . Weeks later, I did find the slides on your site: https://web.archive.org/web/20160325221644/http://connection.mit.edu/research/ but still not the actual paper.

In any case something being on your website is not equivalent to being disclosed. If, for example, you had consulted with a Bitcoin developer-- about your earlier documents that discussed Bitcoin extensively-- that might be a different matter.

[–]DavidShrier[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (7子コメント)

Isn't Peter Todd claiming we consulted all sorts of Bitcoin developers?

[–]nullcGreg Maxwell - Bitcoin Expert 27ポイント28ポイント  (6子コメント)

So you're saying that you did? Oh. That would be an improvement. Who were you working with?

[–]DavidShrier[S] -3ポイント-2ポイント  (5子コメント)

I didn't say that. He did.

[–]nullcGreg Maxwell - Bitcoin Expert 44ポイント45ポイント  (4子コメント)

I thought this was an "AMA" not a "PeterToddHearsay"-- Would you please answer my question?

[–]DavidShrier[S] 4ポイント5ポイント  (3子コメント)

I didn't consult any Bitcoin developers, as I was not an author on the paper. I assume Thomas spoke to Blockchain developers. I can't say for a fact if they also happened to work on Bitcoin, or not, but the typical conversation would be with someone at a large financial services company working on Blockchain. Since ChainAnchor was developed for the permissioned world.

[–]nullcGreg Maxwell - Bitcoin Expert 28ポイント29ポイント  (2子コメント)

I assume Thomas spoke to Blockchain developers

Can you ask Thomas for an answer here?

Since ChainAnchor was developed for the permissioned world.

This is inconsistent with the plain language of the draft I received. I quoted some of this language above and asked you to reconcile it with your repeated assertions that chainanchor was unrelated to Bitcoin. Kyle responded with the suggestion, based on his reporting, that you had initially intended to apply it to Bitcoin but reconsidered -- this seemed reasonable. But if so, I would have expected conversations with Bitcoin people if this work was, indeed, not being done in secret.

[–]bitusher 5ポイント6ポイント  (3子コメント)

Was the "public" document that was posted on your website also include the phrases "Confidential" and "Do not distribute? If so do you or your partners make a habit of publicly posting Confidential documents on the web that you wish not to distribute? Please provide the full link you used to refer back. I'm sure it should be easy to find as you often referred to it to stay current.

[–]nullcGreg Maxwell - Bitcoin Expert 15ポイント16ポイント  (1子コメント)

When the slide deck was eventually posted on their site, it did have a "PLEASE DO NOT DISTRIBUTE" on it. I, personally, assumed it was posted in error and asked multiple people to archive/timestamp it.

[–]DavidShrier[S] -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

See above. We're a shoestring operation and sometimes fail to update default headers.

Edit: sanity check. If we were trying to hide it, why would we repeatedly post it?

[–]mallorie47redditor for 13 days 2ポイント3ポイント  (7子コメント)

Where was it posted?

edit: also, to be clear, you're saying that the PDF's of the draft paper were posted right?

[–]DavidShrier[S] -1ポイント0ポイント  (6子コメント)

I know for a fact that they were, I personally used the link to stay current on document.

[–]mallorie47redditor for 13 days 4ポイント5ポイント  (5子コメント)

What page were they posted in?

[–]FaultyMelon 2ポイント3ポイント  (3子コメント)

[–]DavidShrier[S] -3ポイント-2ポイント  (2子コメント)

There's nothing magical about document headers. We have a default template and sometimes fail to update it.

[–]FaultyMelon 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

Can you comment on why version 5 (linked above) talks directly about implementation in Bitcoin?

We present the ChainAnchor architecture that adds an identity and privacy-preserving layer above blockchains (including the Blockchain in the current Bitcoin system).

and

No change to current Bitcoin keys: The current Bitcoin keys and addresses remain unchanged.

and

Similarly, only Miners who have obtained permission will have their work remunerated.

and

Verification of a User or Miner leaves them in the same degree of anonymity as in the Bitcoin system.

Deploying it in any other system is commented on as a possibility, not a goal.

[–]petertoddPeter Todd - Bitcoin Expert [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

What publicly accessible website were those PDFs linked from?

I personally received one of those URLs by a leaker, and iirc made sure archive.org archived the URL. But I don't know how the public was supposed to find that URL.

[–]DavidShrier[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

MIT-trust.org under /projects, to my recollection.

[–]DavidShrier[S] 2ポイント3ポイント  (14子コメント)

/u/GratefulTony writes:

It's my understanding that a system like chain anchor would incentivize users to compromise the pseudonymity "voluntarily" in exchange for having their transaction included in a block sooner (if at all). That is, compromised miners only mine transactions which self-compromise identity. Chain anchor obviously can't reverse prior observances of blockchain-privacy best-practices, but can drive future privacy fails.

[–]DavidShrier[S] 1ポイント2ポイント  (13子コメント)

thomas Bitcoin already has a built-in incentive mechanism to seep up transactions. If a user wants his or her transaction be processed faster, he or she just needs to add a higher "tip" in the transaction.

Edit: gender neutral.

[–]GratefulTony 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'm fully aware of the normal transaction fee/ confirmation time complex.

Consider the condition when miners are subsidized to mine only permissioned transactions-- If the permissioned-only miners dominate the hashrate, quality of service for the entire network decreases for those attempting to send non-permissioned transactions? regardless of fee?

Are you suggesting that fee pressure would need to overcome permission incentives to establish some sort of equilibrium?

[–]DavidShrier[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (8子コメント)

david So (as I understand it) think of a consented system for a (non Bitcoin) Blockchain instantiation where someone is willing to exchange the benefits of participating in the system for revealing an validated identity token - not precisely the same thing as revealing identity. This is, to categorize it better, a scenario where someone is opting in to participating in a trusted colored-coin system - a very different behavior than someone who is using Bitcoin as a means of opting out of what are termed by some as "fiat currency". The trust broker does not have to be either the counterparty nor the system maintainer. The existence of this colored coin scheme no more invalidates bitcoin than any other.

[–]DavidShrier[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (7子コメント)

/u/GratefulTony writes:

I'm fully aware of the identity token schemes-- IBM Identity Mix perhaps being a canonical example, and all shades between that and one's own SSN being hypothetically within scope as a permission-granting token-- but the question is not whether the degree of privacy or compromise thereof granted by the permissioning scheme is acceptable, but rather whether a similar regime could be implemented on top of Bitcoin and coupled with state-sponsored legislation of the variety claiming that businesses or individuals participating in unpermissioned, "unlawful" blockchain transactions are to be sanctioned: creating a perfect balance of blockchain utility and attrition of freedom so as to cause unpermissioned, "unlawful" Bitcoin transactions-- or miners who mine them to be persecuted, but the endurance of the underlying system's survival and incumbency.

[–]DavidShrier[S] 1ポイント2ポイント  (6子コメント)

thomas Anyone can overlay any scheme they want atop bitcoin. Its all optional.

[–]DavidShrier[S] 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

/u/GratefulTony writes:

In a particular Bitcoin Doomsday, a regime such as I have described, driven by the technology in question, enabled by financially-compromised miners creates a pseudo-permissionless ledger atop a permissionless ledger, below the level of which transactions are forbidden for well-standing individuals and businesses, yet which retains enough legitimate commerce to retain a lion's share of global hash rate.

What advice would you have for cryptocurrency advocates wary of this eventuality?

How can we secure our system against these sorts of attacks? (Again, not assuming your proposal has been designed as a component of one)

[–]DavidShrier[S] 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

thomas Advice: let people do research freely, look for weaknesses in systems and publish. Learn from ChainAnchor -- what is a better incentive mechanism to overcome ChainAnchor, etc etc. What about mandating miners NOT to have anonymity and forcing them to disclose amassed CPU powers, et c etc.

[–]GratefulTony 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

So: Build a system which is not vulnerable to chain-anchor-style attacks?

Build a system less vulnerable to miner coercion, or maintain confidence in Bitcoin's existing miner incentive program...

Yes, this is fair and clear-- to be expected really, but somehow doesn't defend the thesis that Chain Anchor has "nothing to do with Bitcoin".

[–]mallorie47redditor for 13 days 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

Its all optional.

If it's optional, why did you suggest in your paper that miners be paid if they mined blocks containing only permissioned transactions?

[–]pizzaface18 13ポイント14ポイント  (4子コメント)

ChainAnchor

I keep imagining an anchor attached to my ankle dragging me to bottom of an ocean of regulation, with no way to remove it.

[–]DavidShrier[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (3子コメント)

Yeah, Thomas is a software engineer not a marketer. We'd be happy with a new name. Given tone of most of the comments, may not find it here, but open to suggestions.

[–]--__--____--__-- 4ポイント5ポイント  (15子コメント)

Don't you have any morals? There's bad governments who will take Bitcoins freedom and turn digital money into slavery

[–]DavidShrier[S] 1ポイント2ポイント  (14子コメント)

Possibly. How do you recommend fixing a government you don't like?

[–]--__--____--__-- [スコア非表示]  (13子コメント)

Take away their power to enslave through inflation

[–]DavidShrier[S] [スコア非表示]  (12子コメント)

Negative interest rates certainly makes for an "interesting" time (complex, uncertain, etc)

[–]45sbvad [スコア非表示]  (6子コメント)

It is almost like you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about if you are confusing negative interest rates with inflation.

We're trying to build something better over here. Stick to your playground where the authorities tell you what is true and false, what is right and wrong.

When I was getting my degree I never understood what all the angst against "Academia." I didn't think there was a difference between the "real world" and the world I was taught to believe in through education. When you get out in the "real world" (if you ever do) You'll see that there is an enormous disconnect between your academic beliefs about the way the world functions, and the way it actually functions.

Part of the problem is that academia rewards narrow specialists over polymaths.

Before you "contribute" to the global phenomenon that is Bitcoin, it would serve you well to educate yourself on the diverse histories and cultures of the world. Not by reading books written by westerners "describing" or "summarizing" other cultures, but by actually experiencing these cultures, reading works, art, entertainment within the cultural perspective. Understand the economic and political forces that have radically changed the structure of the world since the industrial revolution.

In academia you start to get this belief that there is one true history of humanity, one true path of progress for the human race. Those who are not on this path are opposed to progress and science and efficiency. That the world might as well be ruled by one set of laws that everybody everyone must abide by, because there is only one truth, and one right way of justice.

You probably do not even realize the extent to which you support Authoritarian control structures. That is ok, most people do not. It is unfortunate that even people coming from what is respected as a beacon of intelligence do not even understand the role in the world that they are playing. And if you do understand, that makes it even worse.

Have fun wasting your time on these projects. Nobody will adopt them. Your team will be laughed out of history for making such an ignorant and backwards attempt on the Bitcoin protocol, and for thinking you could flagrantly advertise without opposition.

Why don't you go work on AML KYC for cash? Your work will be much more accepted in authoritarian circles. Oh wait, the authorities don't trust you to alter their protocol so you've come to Bitcoin to peddle your code.

Shameful. This will not reflect well on MIT.

[–]DavidShrier[S] [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

There are several large (inaccurate) assumptions in your post that I'm going to ignore for the moment. I do have a question for you: so if governments are bad, and corporations are bad, and academics are bad, what do you define as "good"?

[–]45sbvad [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Now we are talking!

I wouldn't say that I necessarily characterize all these things (government, corporations, academia) as being "bad" in themselves. It is their role on the individual and society at large that is often "bad"

All these entities are brought into existence to fulfill some kind of need or purpose. However once brought into existence they often have enough power, momentum, and public trust to deviate significantly from their original purposes.

The masses of people need some kind of hierarchy, but not necessarily national governments. Governments gain too much power and act outside the interests of their people. The people have little recourse.

Corporations, the biggest problem I have with them is their involvement in the government. Regulations, subsidies, and numerous forms of redtape designed to protect the public ends up just creating barriers of entry for competition without any meaningful protection. It also creates a false sense of security instead of a buyer beware atmosphere. FDA approves drugs that must be later recalled, but most people don't hesitate to prescribe or take FDA approved medication.

Academia is only bad in so much that it is so narrow and naive. It is not isolated from the world that it studies, and the direction that projects and research goes in is determined by funding. So much funding in Academia comes from the government or the defense industry.

Which leads into Bitcoin

Bitcoin will not solve all of the worlds problems. It will however strike at the heart of the modern war-surveillance-propaganda machine. War is profitable because money is created out of debt. This debt is being passed on to younger and future generations. The surveillance and propaganda machines are used to ensure that war remains popular and profitable.

A Bitcoin based monetary system wouldn't mean there is never war. It would however reduce the scope of most wars. A country couldn't wage a war if it didn't have enough savings, unless it could get a loan. And why would a country get a loan to go to war unless the spoils of the war were worth more than the total cost of the loan?

Bitcoin doesn't solve human greed, violence, or stupidity, but it does limit it.

I'd be happy to elaborate further, thanks for the discussion!

EDIT: And what is "good" ? A much more difficult question that has been a focus of philosophy for thousands of years. To me what is "good" is the ability of an individual to engage in the world in any way they so please, except in ways that harm others. Obviously this leads into a discussion of what harm to others is, is it physical, economical, spiritual, emotional? Everybody has different beliefs about what is good to them and harmful to them. This is precisely why I do not support national or global governments. Different people have different beliefs about how they want to be ruled and what works within a cultural belief system. We need a plurality of city-states; tens of thousands of them. The development of atomic weapons has obviously shoehorned the world into a few sovereign entities that can maintain these weapons programs. Personally I don't see any hope for staving off a global disaster that will end with mass starvation of 3-6 billion people. In my opinion it is likely to start through an economic accident that ripples through supply chains, then leading into local and global battles.

[–]Frogolocalypse [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

Negative interests rates and inflation are completely different things.

[–]DavidShrier[S] [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

Yes, I understand that. I was pointing out a structural challenge in the incumbent financial system. What are some ways in which governments address challenges like this? Monetary and economic interventions.

[–]CC_EF_JTF [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

What are some ways in which governments address challenges like this?

I think the point of many others commenting here is that we don't really care how governments "address challenges" (nevermind they often are causing the problem themselves) we are trying to build something better on our own, which people voluntarily choose because it works.

[–]DavidShrier[S] 2ポイント3ポイント  (16子コメント)

/u/Narrator writes:

If you have chain anchor, why not just put the whole system in a centralized database and call it PayPal? Everyone gets really excited about "blockchain" technology but that's missing the whole point. You might as well collapse the system down to a website with a database backend if you are going to have a requirement that a single individual in a position of authority can prevent transactions.

That's the purpose after all of AML/KYC, to be able for a regulator to prevent prohibited transactions that are in violation of U.S law.

That's why I never bought any Bitcoin. It's all fun and games with distributed computing and crypto, but I was absolutely certain that it will eventually be considered in violation of the law and the U.S government will put something in to centralize it to make it comply with the law or else they'll get the SWAT team out and bust down the door and arrest everyone with a full node just like they did with every other alternative currency experiment that's been tried in the last 100 years. Money is serious business and you don't just go around making your own.

[–]DavidShrier[S] 1ポイント2ポイント  (15子コメント)

thomas because you want anonymity. Central database makes you reliant on one entity. In ChainAnchor (again, for permissioned chains, not bitcoin), there is one Issuer, but multiple Verifiers, and they must not collude (by design). ChainAnchor gives you true anonymity, with traceable transactions.

[–]mallorie47redditor for 13 days 2ポイント3ポイント  (3子コメント)

and they must not collude

So what happens if they collude?

[–]DavidShrier[S] 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

david System falls apart due to lack of trust. It's a nonviable chain.

[–]mallorie47redditor for 13 days 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

What do you mean by "nonviable chain"? Can you explain how the system falls apart?

[–]DavidShrier[S] 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Because people don't use it if they don't trust it

[–]nullcGreg Maxwell - Bitcoin Expert 15ポイント16ポイント  (7子コメント)

Does your definition of "true anonymity" preclude cryptographic trapdoors?

[–]throckmortonsign 9ポイント10ポイント  (5子コメント)

He already posted a good bye post, unfortunately. I think we were just Ramparted. Post hadn't even made it to the front page yet.

[–]um_ya 3ポイント4ポイント  (4子コメント)

It was stickied for visibility.

[–]throckmortonsign 0ポイント1ポイント  (3子コメント)

Not until after they had already "left". (though to his credit DavidShrier posted some replies afterward).

[–]DavidShrier[S] 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

I came back, after a two hour root canal, and answered questions for two hours.

[–]nullcGreg Maxwell - Bitcoin Expert 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

Thank you.

(man.. I guess anything must be better than a dentist chair...)

[–]AceSevenFive 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

true anonymity

able to determine who the anonymous person is

Do you not see the issue here?

[–]Polycephal_Lee 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Central database makes you reliant on one entity.
In ChainAnchor there is one Issuer

So how is that different?

[–]homerjthompson_ 20ポイント21ポイント  (9子コメント)

If you want to talk about earlier versions of ChainAnchor's writeup or questions we've already addressed in this sub, we suggest reading this FAQ.

You mean: Now that we've got our story straight, we want you to ask us questions only about the latest, least embarrassing version of our story.

You're like a pickpocket who says, "I will only answer questions about the period of time when my hand was not in your pocket."

Ok, then: Answer this question: Who is funding AML/KYC research for cryptocurrencies at MIT?

And this: Was the funding provided specifically for this purpose or was it given unconditionally to people who then decided of their own free will to dedicate their research to AML/KYC?

Thank you in advance for your self-incriminating answers.

[–]DavidShrier[S] -3ポイント-2ポイント  (8子コメント)

1) People keep posting the same questions, so we made an FAQ.

2) at the moment, discretionary (general) funds, plus an industry consortium posted publicly on our site.

3) the consortium funds a range of projects, including those applicable to AML/KYC. All are listed on our public site.

[–]homerjthompson_ 12ポイント13ポイント  (7子コメント)

Thank you for your answers so far. They are in fact appreciated and do help your case.

But, could you please link to the list of funders? "Our site" is vague and evasive. We want to know if the people funding your efforts are those malevolent people who would like to deprive us of the freedoms we currently enjoy.

Also, please answer the question: Was there funding provided specifically for AML/KYC research?

Let me clarify that for you. If you and your team had decided to research something other than AML/KYC, using your current funds, would you be in breach of the terms under which the funding was provided?

Please don't be vague and evasive. It makes you look guilty,

[–]DavidShrier[S] 5ポイント6ポイント  (6子コメント)

Coming back for one more answer (wife will kill me).

1) go to www.mit-trust.org. Funders are listed. Same site we've been linking in the header to this AMA etc http://www.mit-trust.org/teampartners/

2) funding wasn't earmarked exclusively for AML/KYC. It was for a basket of projects that included ChainAnchor.

3) no, it doesn't violate terms of our consortium to work on ChainAnchor. Or, I suppose, NOT work on ChainAnchor.

Edit: clarified as I misread question.

[–]homerjthompson_ 10ポイント11ポイント  (3子コメント)

Thanks for your reply.

So the money comes from the UBS criminal bankster organization, which rigs Libor and forex markets with nobody going to jail, a US government agency that nobody has ever heard of, and two miscellaneous network companies.

And you say that the money was allocated after the funders knew that it was to be used for AML/KYC (among other, unspecified, projects).

And you do this in the hope or at least expectation that someday, people will go to jail for much less than UBS did, as a result of your stalwart efforts. In Saudi Arabia, you would deliver women drivers to the authorities for flogging; in Turkey, you would deliver those who insult Erdogan for imprisonment ("He was elected so it is just!", you proclaim). In Russia, you would detect those who use bitcoin and bring them to the authorities for their seven-year prison sentence, and in China, you would help the authorities harvest the organs of dissidents. Long live the legitimate authorities!

I wish you and your wife a very pleasant night, and I hope that someday you will find greater satisfaction in seeking to free humanity from corrupt bankers than you do in enslaving the multitudes to the officious.

[–]DavidShrier[S] -4ポイント-3ポイント  (2子コメント)

I wouldn't label UBS a criminal organization.

I do think that Blockchain tech and other fintech disruption like roboadvisors pose a serious threat to their core business. The asset management industry risks a level of change comparable to what happened to the newspaper industry 1990-2010.

[–]easyusername1 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

I wouldn't label UBS a criminal organization.

Of course you won't, since they are paying you to try to destroy bitcoin. Thankfully, bitcoin is antifragile and many smart people can see trough your bs.

[–][削除されました]  (2子コメント)

[removed]

    [–]DavidShrier[S] 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

    This is actually more pleasant than the two hours of root canal I just went through. There are actually some serious comments here and here.

    [–]quietbeast [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

    There some reason you keep bringing up your rotten tooth surgery as though it's relevant or anyone gives a shit?

    [–]Shmullus_Zimmerman 9ポイント10ポイント  (2子コメント)

    Have you or anyone on your team had meetings with persons affiliated with United States lawmakers, financial regulators, or existing big banking interests where there were presentations of ChainAnchor technology AND discussion of Bitcoin?

    [–]DavidShrier[S] -4ポイント-3ポイント  (1子コメント)

    That's a pretty broad question but will do my best to answer. There were no meetings of the kind you suggest that tried to get Bitcoin regulated via ChainAnchor. I haven't been in every single meeting so I can only speculate if people said something like "wow, Bitcoin hit $440" and then ChainAnchor was discussed in reference to permissioned chains.

    [–]UpGoNinja 3ポイント4ポイント  (6子コメント)

    David is posting questions for other people and answering for multiple people? This thread is a mess.

    edit: And the AMA is already over? What a joke! I check this subreddit multiple times a day - embarrassing really - and even that was not enough to participate before they called it quits.

    [–]DavidShrier[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (5子コメント)

    Go ahead and ask a question.

    [–]UpGoNinja 4ポイント5ポイント  (4子コメント)

    1.) Would you elaborate on this concept of paying miners to exclude transactions from non-authenticated users?

    2.) When will the code be open sourced? From "day one" or after you have reached a certain milestone?

    [–]DavidShrier[S] [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

    thomas The ChainAnchor project Github repository will be publicly readable from day 1, but patch submissions and other commit access will be provided on a limited basis after PoC milestone. This is the same approach we have taken for MIT Kerberos open source code.

    [–]DavidShrier[S] 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

    1) the paper lays it out pretty well. Do you have a more specific question about incentives?

    2) recall this whole brouhaha originated from us being super transparent and posting WIP drafts. I speculate code would be much closer to day 1 than milestone but on some of our projects we got to POC then published. Let me ask Thomas.

    [–]GratefulTony 3ポイント4ポイント  (4子コメント)

    This thread... My sides...

    [–]DavidShrier[S] 3ポイント4ポイント  (3子コメント)

    Glad to provide some entertainment.

    [–]GratefulTony 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

    Just saying... you could've managed it waaay better.

    [–]DavidShrier[S] [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

    Well I've been saying we need a PR firm for a while. But we were left with no choice, we had to defend ourselves. And if we are to be true to our own ethos, we need to show up if we promise to (as we did).

    I was warned this would get ugly but so far haven't hit the shock point.

    [–]throckmortonsign 7ポイント8ポイント  (38子コメント)

    Our view is that if you don't engage regulators early, they will regulate without consulting you...forewarned is forearmed.

    This was the same argument that was used by people to proceed with regulatory guidance which resulted the NY Bitlicense. AFAIK, only 1 company has been able to meet the regulatory burden to comply no doubt at the cost of thousands of dollars. I find this to be entirely specious, especially in the setting of a technology which much like the internet did not have a suitable analog in the physical world. It was often times that startups in the Internet world (eBay, Uber, Yahoo!, etc.) would often proceed with innovation first and then worry about the regulatory environment later. The fact that Bitcoin's growth in early years was almost entirely due to either speculation or black/grey markets also suggests that early regulation should be avoided and certainly not asked for. Knowing this, what defense of your view "they will regulate without consulting you...forewarned is forearmed"? Additionally, what onerous regulations do you think are possible which will be avoided by engaging early with regulators? Which regulators? SEC? IRS? FBI? FINCEN? CFTC? State regulatory bodies? Liquor license bodies?

    (Edit: picked a wonderful day for this AMA... any chance for a reschedule?)

    [–]DavidShrier[S] -4ポイント-3ポイント  (37子コメント)

    We don't want to rehash silliness...but are happy to engage in serious discussion about real issues like regulatory strategy.

    Open to the idea.

    Edit: to clarify, I wasn't saying this comment was silliness. Others in this thread are.

    [–]Polycephal_Lee 3ポイント4ポイント  (26子コメント)

    Please rehash the silliness for me.

    Namely: What can they do to bitcoin that we should be afraid of?

    [–]DavidShrier[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (25子コメント)

    Shut it down like eGold, for example.

    I don't want to be alarmist, but there could be constraining regulation from well-intentioned regulators acting without input from the community. Hence, formulating a constructivist approach would hopefully help avoid that.

    Edit: "silliness" has to do with the various snarky comments and the conspiracy theories that won't die, not the good doctor's perfectly reasonable question.

    [–]HostFat 8ポイント9ポイント  (10子コメント)

    Shut it down like eGold, for example.

    LOL, very bad analogy. How can you compare a totally centralized system as eGold to Bitcoin?

    Bitcoin (or the common cryptocurrency idea) is here to avoid any compromises, it is here not give a fuck to regulators, nothing.

    If Bitcoin will fail somehow, the market will just move to a new better one, and it will do this faster than it was from fiat to Bitcoin.

    [–]DavidShrier[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (9子コメント)

    If a regulator in a jurisdiction made it illegal to use an anonymous digital currency, or required registration of all accounts, you'd have a problem. Centralization is besides the point. Bitcoin isn't magically immune to legislation.

    [–]HostFat 6ポイント7ポイント  (4子コメント)

    It seems that the war on drugs isn't working very well, so I don't see how it will work better on something intangible as a digital currency.

    Everyone loves money, and regulators are humans as everyone else.

    The next step will be for sure bribing them so that they will happily use them in some big holidays in some esotic places :)

    [–]DavidShrier[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (3子コメント)

    Can't speak to bribes. I suspect efforts to regulate may end up messy. I suggest making an effort to provide input so it's less messy.

    [–]2cool2fish 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

    Do you intend the tinge of threat there?

    [–]DavidShrier[S] [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

    Threat? Not from me. I do observe that regulators in a number of jurisdictions have already started putting boundaries out.

    [–]CatatonicMan 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

    That worked super well during prohibition and the war on drugs, as I recall.

    [–]DavidShrier[S] [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

    And the regulation that saw the removal of cocaine from Coca Cola, lead from paint and asbestos from insulation.

    [–]DexterousRichard 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Removing the freedom and pseudo-anonymity of the system, i.e., caving to the desires of overreaching regulators, is not the solution to fear of overreaching regulators. The solution is making such regulation impossible to enforce, which bitcoin has already done, and newer cryptos may do even more effectively.

    Bitcoin is not about legal freedom. It is about actual freedom. Possession and cryptographic security of that possession. Cryptographically protected freedom to transact.

    [–]homerjthompson_ 8ポイント9ポイント  (6子コメント)

    Bitcoin was created after the Liberty Dollar failure which showed the malicious intent of your precious regulators and after the TARP + bailout which showed their criminal predatory nature.

    It was designed to withstand attacks from evil central banksters which is why it is still alive and so successful. Decentralization was the method to achieve this.

    Why are you on the side of evil? Is it because that's where your funding comes from?

    [–]DavidShrier[S] -1ポイント0ポイント  (5子コメント)

    They're your regulators too, unless you live somewhere without regulators.

    The ones I've met aren't evil, but aren't technologists for the most part - they tend to be lawyers.

    [–]homerjthompson_ 3ポイント4ポイント  (4子コメント)

    Don't you know that the "regulators" are the central banks?

    Don't you know that the Federal Reserve is no more federal than Federal Express? Edit: For clarification, the Federal Reserve is owned by the commercial banks it regulates, and acts in their interest, not the public interest.

    Why do you think these people have the right to regulate ordinary people?

    [–]DavidShrier[S] -3ポイント-2ポイント  (3子コメント)

    I think that the laws made by elected officials that people vote for have given regulators the right.

    The Fed is hardly the only body with jurisdiction around Bitcoin. IANAL.

    Edit: in being concise, I was imprecise. It isn't the Fed's remit afaik. Lawmakers set laws, regulators act on the law.

    [–]homerjthompson_ 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

    No - the Fed's remit does not extend to bitcoin, and Bernanke himself said so.

    Who are you to contradict him?

    [–]Polycephal_Lee 2ポイント3ポイント  (5子コメント)

    could be constraining regulation

    Like what? I don't see any future where any government is successful at stopping bitcoin. They may be able to stop their citizens from buying it, or jail them for using it, but that only harms their own country. They can't censor transactions, they can't confiscate coins, they have no power here!

    [–]DavidShrier[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (3子コメント)

    A government could also regulate the companies doing business around bitcoin, for example.

    [–]Frogolocalypse [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

    The last time I looked, I wasn't a citizen of your government.

    [–]DavidShrier[S] [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

    Which government are you a citizen of? If it's in the OECD, I would be willing to wager 10BTC (donated to MSF) that there's a regulatory discussion under way.

    [–]Frogolocalypse [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

    I'm Australian.

    You see, that's the problem. The only reason we have AML/KYC is because the US forced other countries to adopt it. Have you ever heard of operation choke-point? That's the part where the US department of justice forces credit-card companies and banks to close accounts to people who the US government thinks are immoral, like those in prostitution. That's perfectly legal in my country thanks, and I don't appreciate your regulations affecting people from my country. But more than that, AML/KYC doesn't protect against terrorism, and it doesn't protect against money-laundering. According to your colleague at MIT, Professor Chomsky, the largest funder of terrorism in the world is the U.S. government, and frankly, there's no real argument about it. Only over the past month we've learned of hundreds of billions of dollars that have been laundered through companies that are part of this regulatory regime that you are actively attempting to integrate into.

    We don't have a regulatory problem. We have a rule-of-law problem. And a great bulk of the people responsible for breaking those laws are not subject to regulation OR the rule-of-law. How many people went to jail for the GFC? One guy in france?

    But all of this is a moot point.

    It isn't up to the people who are subjected to these regulations and technical solutions you want to implement, to develop new laws, regulations and technical solutions to be subjected to. The state will always do this without your assistance, and I know of not even a single instance in which assisting in the development of such laws leads to beneficial outcomes to the people being subjected to them. We should be challenging these laws, not developing new ones. We certainly shouldn't be assisting in the development of technical solutions to circumvent things that DON'T have regulations, which is what you are currently doing.

    [–]CosmicHemorroid 5ポイント6ポイント  (5子コメント)

    You shouldn't be condescending to the good doctor, nor to anyone else for that matter.

    [–]throckmortonsign 5ポイント6ポイント  (1子コメント)

    Meh, my medical doctorate has next to nothing to do with my question. I only try to bring it up when it applies (I do have an engineering BS which is probably a bit more applicable). I was in academics long enough to know that condescension is often not even intentional. I wasn't offended, just disappointed.

    My experience as a physician does make it obvious to me how terrible regulatory bodies can be. I have state, federal, and board regulations that I comply with many of which are onerous and only seem to enrich others (see: http://www.newsweek.com/certified-medical-controversy-320495). I'm not saying all regulation is bad... but there's a point where it is. I don't think actively asking to be regulated is a great plan. It also seems to me that the time for civil disobedience with regards to mass surveillance and financial freedoms has long since come.

    Edit: thanks for the defense though. :)

    [–]DavidShrier[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Silliness was not in reference to the good doctor. See other comments in this thread.

    [–]throckmortonsign 1ポイント2ポイント  (3子コメント)

    Again, what onerous regulations do you think are possible which could be successfully avoided by engaging early with regulators: with respect to Bitcoin? wrt Permissioned Blockchains?

    [–]DavidShrier[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

    The hope is that bringing actual users and developers of the tech into the discussion with regulators will help them understand the concerns of the community, and product policy that is better aligned with producing a viable outcome instead of potentially causing harm to the tech and the market.

    [–]mplsguy369 9ポイント10ポイント  (4子コメント)

    Having negative chain anchor news front run your AMA probably didn't help... This was a PR nightmare. Also, it seems like you do not understand the demographic of the Bitcoin early adopter

    [–]Polycephal_Lee 7ポイント8ポイント  (8子コメント)

    I stopped reading here:

    within shared permissioned blockchains.

    This has nothing to do with bitcoin, take your article somewhere else. Database management != bitcoin.

    [–]DavidShrier[S] -2ポイント-1ポイント  (7子コメント)

    Yup. Couldn't understand why Peter Todd got so much excitement and so many up votes for a non Bitcoin technology, but there you go.

    [–]nullcGreg Maxwell - Bitcoin Expert 28ポイント29ポイント  (4子コメント)

    It may be because the document he received extensively described this work as being applied to Bitcoin by paying miners to censor non-participating transactions, as did the document I received.

    [–]pizzaface18 6ポイント7ポイント  (3子コメント)

    That's phase 2 and no one was supposed to know about it yet.

    [–]DavidShrier[S] -4ポイント-3ポイント  (1子コメント)

    Phase 3: and then the spaceships land for the invasion. Oops! Didn't mean to leak that. /s

    [–]thieflar [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

    Wow, the balls on this guy.

    You realize that the sarcasm isn't helping your case after you were pretty much caught red-handed here?

    [–]trrrrouble [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

    If this is a non Bitcoin technology, what is this AMA doing in /r/bitcoin?

    [–]DavidShrier[S] [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

    We were asked to. Some misinformation was spread that incorrectly linked one of our projects to bitcoin.

    [–]_The-Big-Giant-Head_ 5ポイント6ポイント  (3子コメント)

    Everything that Bitcoin shouldn't be.

    Bitcoin is borderless if a country decide to regulate it users will vote with their own feet as it happened in NYC.

    [–]DavidShrier[S] [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

    It works to a point, until you run out of countries. Some jurisdictions seem to be handling it better than others.

    [–][削除されました]  (3子コメント)

    [deleted]

      [–]DavidShrier[S] 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

      Is that because of the salt and pepper hair? No, no relation.

      Question asked if I were related to Bre Pettis.

      [–]nullcGreg Maxwell - Bitcoin Expert 126ポイント127ポイント  (11子コメント)

      Was any portion of this work federally funded?

      [–]DavidShrier[S] 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

      /u/Evolvem writes:

      No one here believes bitcoin should or can have any type of successful regulation . I defeats the whole concept of it. AML and KYC should only be on the Government issued layer(where Digital currency is exchanged to fiat, OR a decentralized digital currency is exchanged to centralized digital currency ( bitcoin -> colored US dollar ). Since something like bitcoin is not owned or issued by any central government, AML and KYC should always be outside of the decentralized digital currency echosphere . This gives every government/ jurisdiction the ability to have their own regulation that they should rightfully have. ChainAnchor and its current idea is honestly a waste of research resources . The idea may be useful for a govt issued colored coin but then the whole concept is in the toilet because you would not have miners in the way bitcoin does if in a govt issued asset.

      [–]codehalo 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

      Our view is that if you don't engage regulators early, they will regulate without consulting you...forewarned is forearmed.

      The people who were peddling the BitLicense came to meetups in NYC saying the same thing, and look at how that turned out. Please go and work with the folks who want "permissioned blockchains".

      [–]DavidShrier[S] -3ポイント-2ポイント  (13子コメント)

      OK, so, we've waited around for 25 minutes, and no one has asked any questions - we've answered the toplevel questions from the collector thread.

      We're calling it a night - thank you to those of you who submitted previously.

      [–]MrRGnome 26ポイント27ポイント  (9子コメント)

      Based on how this AMA was run I don't think you have any idea what you are accomplishing with this outreach.

      Waiting around for 25 minutes and answering the questions you've chosen in such a poor format will do nothing but further incite anger from the community here. Such behavior would have had your AMA delisted from subs dedicated to AMA activity. The whole effort seems disingenuous at best.

      [–]apoefjmqdsfls 10ポイント11ポイント  (1子コメント)

      So you basically had a monologue in the comment thread and left after waiting at the front door in the hope nobody asked a question. Great AMA.

      [–]DavidShrier[S] -2ポイント-1ポイント  (0子コメント)

      We replied to the questions that were posted. Back for more. Do you have a question?

      [–]mughat 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

      The reason people value bitcoin is to avoid regulated money. Your project seems evil. Do your own coin.

      [–]goodbtc 9ポイント10ポイント  (3子コメント)

      AML and KYC on Bitcoin? Are you, excuse me, fucking nuts?

      !RemindMe 2 years Tell me again how did aml/kyc worked out for you!

      [–]thesilentwitnessredditor for 12 days 10ポイント11ポイント  (0子コメント)

      How much funding do you receive from federal entities?

      [–]Rassah [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

      Mycelium is probably one month away from finishing a working version of CoinShuffle. Next step will be to implement it in our wallet, and after that to set it up to work by default for all transactions.

      Good luck with your AML/KYC thing.

      [–]btcchefredditor for 2 days [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

      This doesn't add up, isn't most 99% of money laundering from proceeds of illegal drug trade and human trafficking? How much of this problem could be solved by ending this fraudulent "war on drugs" and reassigning resources to better methods of cracking human trafficking rings? AML laws have only made the criminals more clever and diverse in their financial holdings. I cannot see the value of focusing on bitcoin other than to appease an already misguided, confused, and corrupt government.

      [–]TaleRecursionredditor for 30 days [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

      Ask Me Anything1

      1 : except about who funded the project or if it was meant to apply to Bitcoin or about the changes of wording in the whitepaper or why we would publish a whitepaper with "do not disclose" written in it if it was not leaked or if we think you are stupid or why we have been actively trolling every threads about ChainAnchor or anything else that we may judge embarrassing at our sole discretion from time to time as the case may arise.

      [–]45sbvad [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

      Didn't realize MIT has fallen to such low standards they allow amateurs and charlatans represent them.

      You seriously have no fucking clue what Bitcoin is.