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ConcernedAccusations against MGTOW (self.MGTOW)

Botanical-Concepts が 投稿

Well I frequent this forum alot. I view alot of the content and I post here alot too. I have always been one to hear out arguments from all different spheres of the ball (I don't believe most arguments are two sided like a coin, that is a huge oversimplification). So I sometimes end up in debates or discussions with people who are anti MGTOW on reddit.

I generally try to present myself in an articulate way and put a decent effort into posts like this. Nothing wrong with that. At the same time when it comes to dealing with or "combating" haters, I find I just am giving less and less fucks as time goes by. My experiences has been it is not worth putting effort into creating a long "screed" that is just going to be rebuked no matter what.

Look at threads like this on /r/askmen or even worse this on /r/askwomen and you will catch my drift. Most of the time discussions against MGTOW come down to a few basic templated re-hashed arguments. These are generally accusations such as:

  • MGTOWs are just loser virgins, good riddance, gone from the gene pool.
  • Bunch of complainers. Whingy complainers, it's not a mans role to complain. It doesn't look good on a man. *Same as the feminists
  • *** Why are you still complaining about women, hurry up and go your own way already***

This last one is what I want to talk about and get some discussion on. MGTOW is men going their own way. That means avoiding investment in relationships with women such as cohabitation or marriage i.e. as an object. It does not mean we reject data and information women, especially female nature. These are not mutually exclusive. On the contrary, it they are mutually inclusive. It is this "obsession" with investigating female nature which has led up to reject female investment.

The fact is the more men invest in knowledge and understanding of women, the less they willing invest in women sexually, emotionally, and economically. This is the real reason why women a don't want MGTOW talking about women.

I just made this video "Accusations against MGTOW: Shut Up And Go Your Own Way Already" which deals specifically with this subject in detail. I plan on doing a series of these "MGTOW" accusations videos, mainly so that other MGTOW can be informed and prepared for these accusations.

Accusations Against MGTOW

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[–]Mgtowredpillonroids 12ポイント13ポイント  (0子コメント)

This already exists, namely in the form of the MGTOW shaming catalogue: https://www.mgtow.com/shaming-tactics/ Naturally there's no reason why you shouldn't add to that from your own perspective though. Indeed all these (mainly based on strawmen and ad hominem attacks) "counter arguments" are so repetitive and unimaginative that arguing against them is a waste of time and one should simply refer them to the already existing material (i.e. yours, the shaming catalogue or any other manosphere material adressing these attacks).

Edit: Your last link doesn't work.

[–]Chomsky_Biri 1ポイント2ポイント  (3子コメント)

Im not an mgtow, read this place a lot though mainly out of interest.

One thing that does puzzle me is the hate you get from all corners. The red pillers, half of them hate mgtow. Femminists; hate most things so put mgtow on the pile as well The rational anti feminist youtubers; hate ya asses. The generic american liberal; hates ya because its opinion that sounds good to him.

The criticisms seem ,to be frank fairly overblown. "women are whores, lets go play video games or something instead" shouldnt provoke the hatred you guys get from all those groups.

I'm curios if any of you have an explanation as to why MGTOW gets hated from all sides, even sides that you could be forgiven for thinking our natural allies when just looking at the ideas, and try not to make it too self serving.

[–]Falkrik 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

I think it's because we are dropping out of the rat race while everyone still competes. Much of TRP thinks we are pussies that just gave up/don't want to compete like the rest. Well no shit, at least we do a cost/benefit analysis of it before we dedicate our time getting jacked, learning game, spinning plates, etc.

Feminists being hateful is obvious.

The average person just doesn't seem to get it I guess. They've been brought up to believe that you can find "the one", find true love, live happily with a family. Even my smart friends don't "get it". They all say they will get married eventually. I will ask them why and they just say "I just know I will". So many people don't actually question what they know. Not enough people critically think.

When you go against the herd there will be backlash. I always get people questioning me for willingly being single. "Oh you just haven't found the right one yet" Literally all of my family and close friends tell me this.

I don't really understand WHY they all get mad though. Why the hell do you care if I don't want to date? Technically that means less competition for TRP/men. I think it's hilarious how they get so worked up that I'd rather play video games or read a book than spend time with a women.

[–]Mgtowmike35 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

It's quite simple....there is nothing more that people hate and fear in this world than an independent man that cannot be controlled.

Women hate us because they know we are right and there is nothing that they can do to control us. Their only value is their body and once that is rejected they lose it.

Most men hate us because they are addicted and brainwashed. Rejecting the matrix type of thing. Others do it purely out of thirst for female validation.

We are at the top of the food chain. Start beta, become pua, red piller, then MGTOW. It's a process lol.

[–]Darth_Bicycle 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

A youtube user, Finger University made a pretty good video about this. Check out his channel. I mean we are just checking out. There's nothing hostile about us, but on the other hand, if you walk away from society then people in society may have to ask some difficult questions. "Why are people walking out? Is something wrong here?" - Rather than doing that, it is easier to label us as a hate group, or as losers and what have you.

[–]User-31f64a4e 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

The fact is the more men invest in knowledge and understanding of women, the less they willing invest in women sexually, emotionally, and economically. This is the real reason why women a don't want MGTOW talking about women.

This.

[–]Falkrik 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

For sure. The more I learn about women the more I try to avoid them in anything other than necessary small talk. Most of them I don't even find that attractive anymore, unless they are the kind of woman that is regularly exercising.

[–]nooooou 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

different spheres of the ball

I'll just suggest "coordinates of the sphere" as an improved version of that phrase.

[–]Five_Decades 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Barbarossa had a video about why 'shut up and go your own way' was terrible advice for MGTOWs, but I forget which video it was. It was about how dissemination of information was important to MGTOWers. The only reason I am here is because other people were talking about it, and the ideas made sense. People like me talking about it may help someone else who is thinking of MGTOW.

[–]SergeantDickhead 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Hey, don't forget that you are more than welcome to post your mgtow videos over at r/mgtowcinema as well.

[–]MasherusPrime 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Mgtow is anti commitment to women. To define a movement or a social idea based on opposting something means that the "opposition" is going to be brought up constantly.

Think "anti globalisation". What they talk about? How to avoid globalization.

How about "wall street invasion"? They are anti greed and anti banking. Guess what they talk about?

[–]Botanical-Concepts[S] -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

Exactly MGTOW is Men Going Our Own Way. And why are we doing that? As a reaction. So it follows then that even if we are all going our own way, we may be doing so on our own terms, but still doing so for different reasons. We are going our own way, away from marriage and relationships. It follows then that MGTOW aren't going their own way towards marriage and relationships.

[–]exit-stage-right2 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

once again I have to point out! MGTOW isn't any one thought or perspective. it means don't follow society rules just because they are taught and preached. Find your own way and do it the way that works for you. it can be loving women, hating women, writing all these posts about female behavior, living in the wilderness by yourself, even having a relationship and children. Stop trying to define MGTOW, IT ALREADY HAS A DEFINITION, don't do what society tells you, just because society tells you, figure your own decisions based on what works best for you. It's ironic that you tell us how to be because that's exactly how MGTOW emerged. Your comments only strengthens that fact.

[–]Botanical-Concepts[S] 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

even having a relationship and children

I think you misunderstand. MGTOW is many thing, with men going all sorts of different ways, but not that. MGTOW are going their own way away from marriage and cohabitation. MGTOW is a reaction to the problems faced with investing in women. As such, none of the paths we cut out as individuals on are own terms are on the path of marriage or cohabitation. This is fundamental. MGTOW is many many things for many different guys, but it is not getting married. That would be "Men Going The Old Way" lol.

The reason why there is consensus on this "no marriage, no cohabitation" is because it stops men g"going their own way" by reducing their freedom and independence. So MGTOW doesn't mean "do whatever the fuck you wanna do", especially if what you want to do is entangle yerself into a situation were you can't do what you want to do.

[–]exit-stage-right2 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Exactly my point! you can have relations with women, father children and not be married or cohabitating. that is definitely doing it your own way. The key idea is to not be owned by a women or the government and to free yourself from slavery. the false accusations problem of course, means you must stay away from women all together. it's whatever an individual chooses. I will simply state again, that MGTOW only means to not follow society just because you are brought up thinking it's the proper way to live your life. That's all it is people, nothing more. Anything beyond that concept is an individual choice added to their own path. And that path choice can be anything except doing exactly what you were told to do and believe as a child growing up. I'll agree that marriage with the state involved is definitely not MGTOW, but other arrangements can be created. MGTOW does not mean monk, but and individual can choose that route.

[–]exit-stage-right2 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I won't waste my time with your videos, that's what society and you want to make me do. No Thanks

[–]arcesious 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

I told a close friend of mine I was 'going my own way' once when we drifted onto the topic of relationships and dating awhile back. I explained that I've never had much if any desire for romantic relationships, how in my experience being 'in love' compromised my ability to reason so much that I found it antithetical to who I am, how I've observed throughout my life many men manipulated to disaster, how I've never wanted children, how I've rarely ever met a woman who was logic-oriented like me, and that being the key thing I would want in a relationship if I ever had one, is someone as intelligent or more intelligent than myself who understood me on the most fundamental levels. But reality is not so I said, I've looked, tried to be as objective and unbiased as possible in my observations and consideration of data, and it seems to me the odds of finding such an individual are so remote that I should simply live my life as best as I can and improve myself autonomously. I told all of this to a person who himself claimed to have gone on over 30 dates with different women (with no success in starting a new relationship for himself) in the past year, and maybe my mistake in maintaining friendship was criticizing his decision to do so on the basis of the expenditure doing so required.

Since then he's accused me of being 'afraid of women' one on occasion for a brief awkward moment that I originally brushed off as a simple misunderstanding at the time. Now we've drifted apart (perhaps for other reasons) despite my best intentions to remain his friend. He doesn't talk to me except if I occasionally see him at work and try my best to be friendly and interested in what's going on with him. I'm not sure if maybe he got bored of my company or if maybe he investigated MGTOW and saw all the people going through the anger phase and concluded I was the same and not worth the time to hang out with anymore. Either way, shit's painful (the deterioration of a friendship) especially when it comes from someone who was your best friend for years. Maybe I wasn't the best friend to him either. I've always been rather emotionally disengaged, quiet during most conversations in groups, critical about a lot of things (but with good intentions), and didn't share a whole lot of interests with him other than gaming. I've tried to find something wrong with me to figure it out but I'm just being who I am with no ill will towards others. I don't know. On top of that, all my old friends all feel like acquaintances now, everyone I used to spend lots of time with is getting into romantic relationships and it's like I've just been forgotten. I just needed to vent since that's been on my mind for awhile, seemed appropriate to this thread.

[–]Botanical-Concepts[S] 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

It just happens man, it happens to everyone no matter who they are. I have had heaps of friends throughout my life, probably a few dozen throughout my life... ranging from best friends to just friends. I have pretty much "fallen out" or "lost touch" with all of them at some point or another. And it just so happens that at this point in my life I have no friends really, except my brother. Basically I went overseas, met friends there, met a girl, brought her back, moved to the city CBD,invested in her alot, didn't have any friends except her, broke up with her, moved to a small town near where I was born... and here I am.

Three years ago I was a star socialite. I was going out like 2-3 nights a week, I would have lunch with people like 2-3 days a week, I created a language club to learn korean, I did calisthenics and taught some kids parkour. I was very popular and well known as an extroverted foreigner in a small town.

Now I basically just do my garden, go cycling, occasionally go to town to get some fruits and mystery shopping, and spend all day on the computer making videos and selling digital goods online. Just embrace where yer life is heading.

[–]Spungo1 -4ポイント-3ポイント  (6子コメント)

I think MGTOW just needs to drop the name, much like feminism needs to drop the name. Instead of people identifying as members of a group and going overboard, as all groups eventually do, people should simply state their philosophy.

Others: "Are you dating anyone right now?"

You: "Nope. I find that I'm happier when I'm single, so I'll stay single."

No label, no angry ranting about how much you hate women or how much you hate your mother, no ranting about feminism. Lead by example. Women should do this too. Don't tell me you're a feminist and you hate men. Tell me you're happier when you don't have a man. I want to be around positive people. Don't bring me down with hateful nonsense and pink hair.

[–]PanMonium 6ポイント7ポイント  (4子コメント)

I have never told anyone that I identify with MGTOW. I'm surprised that anyone would mention it in the public sphere. As far as I'm concerned the term is for internal use only - as a way for us to self-identify and share our insights.

The rest of the world doesn't need to approve. So the question about how the rest of the world perceives us should be a non-argument. They can't attack what doesn't engage.

As far as women not claiming to be a feminist, I'm glad when they do so I can take note to avoid them.

[–]Spungo1 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

Click any link posted on this subreddit and read the comments. "MGTOW 4 life!!"

It makes the whole group look retarded. High quality men like TL;DR can't associate with the label because so many retarded people use that label. Likewise, most women do not identify as feminists even when they agree with the basic concepts of female supremacy. They don't want to share a label used by morons.

[–]PanMonium 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

It makes the whole group look retarded.

I'm not sure it makes the whole group look retarded. Mostly just them. I find it kind of funny though, that men rejecting an abusive paradigm is going to be conceptualized like a dude bro fraternity: "Yeah man, avoided unfair divorce litigation; high five! Let's go do some keg stands!" That's them being dumb, not the rest of us.

Likewise, most women do not identify as feminists even when they agree with the basic concepts of female supremacy. They don't want to share a label used by morons.

Luckily, I feel most of us should be smart enough to determine that they're morons anyway. I believe there may be some early, telling indications. :D

[–]Botanical-Concepts[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Exactly. Labels will always be here. They serve a purpose. If someone is passionate or obsessed, it's not the use of the label that makes them passionate or obsessed.

[–]Botanical-Concepts[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

By addressing negative occurrences, we can make life more positive. It's like people who don't like vegans saying "well billions of animals are slaughtered every year, they often suffer alot, and they have no say in the matter". People charge them with being negative, even though they are the ones stuffing dead animals in their mouth unnecessarily. Identifying negative occurrences as negative and attempting to resolve them is itself a positive thing.

P.S I have never publically vocally identified as MGTOW and I don't think there are many guys that do. If I talk about MGTOW type issues I always use normie speak and normie terms so that people aren't thrown off.

[–]GreatRedYeti -1ポイント0ポイント  (2子コメント)

Link to the video is wrong. It currently goes to the "My Videos" section on YouTube.

[–]Botanical-Concepts[S] 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

Thanks mate I fixed it.

[–]GreatRedYeti -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

Good idea for a video series. I look forward to more!

[–]gizmosuit -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

Helo lads. good post. I wrote some thing very similar to this.but deleted it. since we are gow I said to me self,I need to focous on meself and let people think whatever they might.