全 57 件のコメント

[–]la_panaderia 11ポイント12ポイント  (5子コメント)

Let me preface this by saying I was raised an Orthodox Jew, which means I pretty much spent all my formative years studying the talmud for the better part of the day in its original Aramaic.

The Talmud does not have nice things to say about Jesus, however:

  • The authors of the talmud lived several hundred years after Jesus. Additionally, many were not in proximity to Christendom.
  • The Talmud is not entirely a compendium of Jewish law. There is a sections of the Talmud that are read as Aggaddah - legends, hearsay.
  • Jesus is not the only one singled out for Criticism. Pretty much any public figure not entirely in line with Rabbinic teaching gets similar treatment.
  • Jesus is not actually mentioned in the Mishna (which actually was contemporary with him), and some of the Mishnaic sages (Gamliel, for example) are also said to have been Christian sympathizers, it's reasonable to say that the hyperbole found in the Talmud is less about actual beliefs and views held at the time, and more about shocking potential converts to Christianity. There is very little in the Talmud (which is a huge compendium of rabbinic excerpts) talking about Jesus or Christianity.

I remember growing up there was very little in the way of Jewish doctrine pertaining to Jesus. Even when searching for these incriminating or interesting excerpts about Jesus, there was very little to be found. The only thing which was worth looking at was Toldot Yeshu

Edit: Rabban Gamliel being a Christian sympathizer is not supported by any non-Christian sources

[–]callsNputs 5ポイント6ポイント  (2子コメント)

and some of the Mishnaic sages (Gamliel, for example) are also known to have been Christian sympathizers,

I'm sure that's exactly the reason why he instituted the bracha for minim in the shmoneh esrei.

Toldot Yeshu

A medieval forgery

[–]la_panaderia 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

Indeed. My point about Toldot Yeshu is that there isn't any serious Jewish text actually dealing with Jesus, and that most of current Jewish "lore" regarding Jesus is sourced in that.

[–]callsNputs 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

gotcha. I can only think of maybe 3 places Jesus is mentioned in the Talmud though, and even then it's contentious as to if it refers to Jesus as is known to Christianity or to a different second temple era sectarian.

I'm kind of surprised that everyone is shocked that someone who doesn't prescribe to and vehemently opposes certain religious beliefs or figures would think that they would be charitably described in the text.

[–]namer98 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

and some of the Mishnaic sages (Gamliel, for example) are also known to have been Christian sympathizers

Gonna need a source.

[–]SabaziosZagreus 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

Jew here. First off, need to mention that the official religion of Israel is not Orthodox Judaism. Further, the Talmud is not simply a text of Orthodox Judaism. The Talmud is an important religious text in every branch of Judaism. Reform, Conservative, and Orthodox Jews all utilize the Talmud.

Anyway, the Talmud might contain references to Jesus. It's inconclusive. The Talmud has references to a "Yeshu" or a "Jesus" a few times. However, these references contradict one another. Some of these references describe figures who lived centuries apart. Some of these references describe figures with different backgrounds and parentage. They can't all refer to the same person, and why should they? The name "Jesus" wasn't exactly an uncommon name. Might some of the references refer to Jesus of Nazareth? Sure. Which ones? Who knows.

If any of these conflicting references to the various Jesuses are taken to refer to Jesus of Nazareth, what do we learn?

First we learn that the rabbis of the Talmud must have had little knowledge of Jesus. None of the references (if we take them to refer to Jesus of Nazareth) show a knowledge of even trivial details of Jesus' life. That's to be expected. The Talmudic rabbis lived in Babylonia. Christianity was a distant religion practiced by a distant people. All the Talmudic rabbis heard would be second and third hand stories. What they heard about Jesus of Nazareth could easily have been confused and meshed with tales of other dissenters from Judaism as time went on. It was important to preserve laws and traditions, you can imagine it was less important to memorize little stories of dissenters from Judaism.

We secondly learn (regardless of whether any of the Jesuses in the Talmud are Jesus of Nazareth) that the primary emotion the rabbis of the Talmud had towards Jesus was not negative. The primary attitude the rabbis of the Talmud had towards Jesus was a lack of interest. The Talmud is thousands of pages long. In those thousands of pages, there are only a few offhand references which could possible refer to Jesus. As those offhand references contradict with one another, only a fraction of them could refer to the same Jesus. So we have thousands of pages of text and only a handful of possible references to Jesus of Nazareth. Clearly the overwhelming opinion the rabbis of the Talmud had regarding Jesus was indifference.

So altogether, there's little reason to be bothered by anything in the Talmud. With the first point in mind, we realize that any possible references to Jesus are offhand statements made without actual understanding of any of the fundamentals of Christianity. With the second point in mind, we realize that the overwhelming view of Jesus and Christianity is not negative, but indifferent.

[–]Rejex27 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

Funny, I read just yesterday about St. Louis burning the Talmud thinking not everyone is perfect in everything they do. Then I read he did at the pope's behest, who behested him because of the blasphemy embedded in it.

[–]sakor88 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Just wanted to say that I do not consider myself part of the "People of the Book". That is an Islamic concept and isn't it repugnant to the faith.

http://blogs.ancientfaith.com/glory2godforallthings/2014/10/01/bible-become-quran/

[–]Ponce_the_Great 8ポイント9ポイント  (40子コメント)

I usually see this type of stuff trotted out by groups before going into how the Jews are eternal arch enemies of the Church plotting its downfall and carrying out blood libel rituals and all that crap.

[–]MilesChristi 4ポイント5ポイント  (1子コメント)

So...that doesn't mean the preceding information isn't true. Just because those who mention it tend towards that conclusion.

Read it, and come to your own conclusion.

[–]Ponce_the_Great 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

I did read. I realize this could be said better but "so what"

It is no scandal to realize non christians do not recognize the divinity of christ. they reflect the view that seems quite reasonable to conclude for one who does not recognize Jesus as the son of God.

Though now i would be interested to hear a Jewish response.

My conclusion is that the point for this article is simply as propoganda for the Jew enemy of the christians etc

[–]PAPIST_SUBVERSIVE 5ポイント6ポイント  (3子コメント)

You're right, nobody could possibly criticize a disgusting book like the Talmud without thinking the Jews are lizard people who control world finance.

[–]jailgunner_toe 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

What what is worth, Laura Wood does think Jews control world finance (idk about lizard people). Which is ironic considering she was close to the late blogger Lawrence Auster, a Jewish convert to Christianity who was extremely sensitive to antisemitism

[–]mycatholicaccount -2ポイント-1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Well I think you have to distinguish between the Jews literally and something like "Jewish consciousness" which is something like the distinction between the Visible and Invisible Church; there's a lot of overlap but not perfect correspondence. Jewish Consciousness can definitely be identified with capitalism and communism, with cultural Marxism, and with the forces that currently control finance, the media, and politics. Really, it can be identified with any sort of unnatural Internationalism which is imminent rather than transcendent and which seeks to poison the universe through its perpetual Revolution against Nature.

[–]Ponce_the_Great 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

people (in my experience on the web) usually only bring up the stuff to support their positions against the Jews.

[–]Lift4biff -5ポイント-4ポイント  (28子コメント)

Jews are enemies of the church same with every pagan, infidel ,sinner and heretic. They are rebels against the house of god all people who are rebels against god are the enemy of Israel.

Also we are the people of Israel unbroken from Abraham not the pharisees and their false Israel which saddens god.

[–]Ponce_the_Great 3ポイント4ポイント  (26子コメント)

usually when I see them singled out its them as a force trying to infiltrate good pure Christendom and bring about the downfall of the Church through their evil plans and freemasonry, media, communism etc.

and I don't know how well enemy works as a term in the modern context to describe that. Since enemy would seem to imply that the Church should take violent actions against these "enemies" which is false.

I understand the intent behind the words, but in the common context of the word's meaning today I don't think it works as well since it sends a bad message to those we would want to convert and those who are supposed to be inspiring conversions

[–]Lift4biff -3ポイント-2ポイント  (21子コメント)

We do take action against our enemies, we burn with zeal for Christ and with it we shall conquer the world. The fire of our faith burns in the dark and nothing can stand before it.

We are the church Militant if you don't forget our very existence is a battle against the world

Freemasonry is evil and the media is very Jewish and anti-Christian in it's propagation.

[–]Ponce_the_Great 3ポイント4ポイント  (20子コメント)

when you try to implement that psuo warrior rhetoric into literal actions things get weird, counter productive and often end in failure.

Work on holiness of yourself and those around you, work for the common good against great evils in society and the world.

And Freemasonry today shrugs its come up on other threads and today they're not really much of a threat so much as an old men's club with silly ceremonies and divided into several different groups.

As for Jewish what does that mean? It means whatever someone wants to.

Cultural Jew, Orthodox Jew, Liberal Jew, Secular Jew.

The term is about a generic as Christian or American (two continents not just our egotistical USA). There's a vague idea of the outline but you have to avoid painting with too broadly of a brush.

[–]Lift4biff -5ポイント-4ポイント  (19子コメント)

No I feel it needs to be drilled far more into Catholics to recognize we are in battle and to conduct themselves with the discipline of it especially with so many people who act in scandal that it can be confusing to people when you remind them you are actually Catholic not a CC

A jew is a person following Jesus Christ and his truth in the Holy and Apolstic Catholic Church and are known as Christians.

Those others are pharasietic religions not Judaism.

[–]Ponce_the_Great 4ポイント5ポイント  (4子コメント)

I'm sorry I get what you mean about Christians being modern Jews. However that's semantics of branding. The vast majority of people will recognize Jewish and Christians being two different religions, trying to claim that real Jews are Catholics just sounds like a lame attempt at branding like "Old Catholic Church"

[–]Lift4biff -2ポイント-1ポイント  (3子コメント)

Because the world feels something is no reason to not say what is true. If I censor words on the truth then I have done injustice.

[–]balrogath 4ポイント5ポイント  (1子コメント)

Jews are members of the tribe of Judah. The vast majority of Christians are not members of the tribe of Judah. Therefore the vast majority of Christians are not Jews.

[–]Boazy[S] -2ポイント-1ポイント  (0子コメント)

The good news for the "tribe of Judah" is that the “Lion of the Tribe of Judah,” Jesus Christ (Revelation 5:5), has come to establish the Kingdom of God, and the Tribe of Judah are those who accept their Redeemer (Romans 11:26).

[–]Ponce_the_Great 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Because its meant only as fancy word play, we as Catholics do not call ourselves Jews, there is a group that does.

the Church is the new Jerusalem but its dancing with words to try to demand that the Jews recognize that we are in fact Jews and they are...whatever you want to name them

[–]callsNputs 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

You're not Jewish and you'll never be Jewish. Replacement Theology=cultural appropriation to the extreme.

[–]dream_deferred 8ポイント9ポイント  (7子コメント)

A jew is a person following Jesus Christ and his truth in the Holy and Apolstic Catholic Church and are known as Christians.

LOL what a load of shit.

You're a Jew if 1.) You converted to Judaism, or 2.) your mother's a Jew.

[–]Boazy[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

you're a Jew if your mother's a Jew

Our Lord said, "Behold your mother." He was not suggesting that Mary become our mother, but that Mary is our Mother. And to Mary He gave us as children. But, if this is true, how do we make theological sense of this relationship? Turning again to Scripture, we can best understand it by considering St. Paul's beautiful doctrine of the Mystical Body of Christ (cf. Colossians 1:18, Ephesians 4:15). In this whole Body, St. Paul refers to Christ as the Head and the Church as the Body. Head and Body make up the entire and whole Mystical Body of Jesus Christ.

Now, if we say that Mary gave birth to Jesus, the Head of the Body, then it must be that she gave birth to the entire Body since a true body cannot be separated. Thus, it would mean that she gave birth to the members as well. In giving physical birth to Jesus, we can say that Mary made it possible for us to receive spiritual life through Him. We were dead, and through Him we have come back to life. And it was Mary's "yes" at the Annunciation that made our rebirth possible. To question this is to question the plan of God. For it was He who decided from all eternity that it would be so. And the list of those who have believed it is almost endless.

[–]qmechan 1ポイント2ポイント  (3子コメント)

I'm happy to be here today with you in this Synagogue. I thank Dr. Di Segni, Mrs Durighello and Mr Gattegna for their kind words. And I thank you all for your warm welcome, thank you! Tada Toda Rabba, thank you!

During my first visit to this synagogue as Bishop of Rome, I wish to express to you and to extend to all Jewish communities, the fraternal greetings of peace of the whole Catholic Church.

Our relations are very close to my heart. When in Buenos Aires I used to go to the synagogues and meet the communities gathered there, I used to follow Jewish festivities and commemorations and give thanks to the Lord who gives us life and accompanies us on the path of history. Over time, a spiritual bond has been created which has favoured the birth of a genuine friendship and given life to a shared commitment. In interreligious dialogue it is essential that we meet as brothers and sisters before our Creator and to Him give praise, that we respect and appreciate each other and try to collaborate. In Jewish-Christian dialogue there is a unique and special bond thanks to the Jewish roots of Christianity: Jews and Christians must therefore feel as brothers, united by the same God and by a rich common spiritual patrimony (cf. Declaration. Nostra Aetate, 4 ), upon which to build the future.

With this visit I follow in the footsteps of my predecessors. Pope John Paul II came here thirty years ago, on 13 April 1986; and Pope Benedict XVI was amongt you six years ago. On that occasion John Paul II coined the beautiful description "elder brothers", and in fact you are our brothers and sisters in the faith. We all belong to one family, the family of God, who accompanies and protects us, His people. Together, as Jews and as Catholics, we are called to take on our responsibilities towards this city, giving first of all a spiritual contribution, and favouring the resolution of various current problems. It is my hope that closeness, mutual understanding and respect between our two communities continue to grow. Thus, it is significant that I have come among you today, on January 17, the day when the Italian Episcopal Conference celebrates the "Day of dialogue between Catholics and Jews."

We have just commemorated the 50th anniversary of the Second Vatican Council’s Declaration “Nostra Aetate” which made possible the systematic dialogue between the Catholic Church and Judaism. On 28 October last, in St. Peter's Square, I was able to greet a large number of Jewish representatives to whom I said “Deserving of special gratitude to God is the veritable transformation of Christian-Jewish relations in these 50 years. Indifference and opposition have changed into cooperation and benevolence. From enemies and strangers we have become friends and brothers. The Council, with the Declaration Nostra Aetate, has indicated the way: “yes” to rediscovering Christianity’s Jewish roots; “no” to every form of anti-Semitism and blame for every wrong, discrimination and persecution deriving from it.” Nostra Aetate explicitly defined theologically for the first time the Catholic Church's relations with Judaism. Of course it did not solve all the theological issues that affect us, but we it provided an important stimulus for further necessary reflections. In this regard, on 10 December 2015, the Commission for Religious Relations with the Jews published a new document that addresses theological issues that have emerged in recent decades since the promulgation of “Nostra Aetate”. In fact, the theological dimension of Jewish-Catholic dialogue deserves to be more thorough, and I wish to encourage all those involved in this dialogue to continue in this direction, with discernment and perseverance. From a theological point of view, it is clear there is an inseparable bond between Christians and Jews. Christians, to be able to understand themselves, cannot not refer to their Jewish roots, and the Church, while professing salvation through faith in Christ, recognizes the irrevocability of the Covenant and God’s constant and faithful love for Israel .

Along with theological issues, we must not lose sight of the big challenges facing the world today. That of an integral ecology is now a priority, and us Christians and Jews can and must offer humanity the message of the Bible regarding the care of creation. Conflicts, wars, violence and injustices open deep wounds in humanity and call us to strengthen a commitment for peace and justice. Violence by man against man is in contradiction with any religion worthy of that name, and in particular with the three great monotheistic religions. Life is sacred, a gift of God. The fifth commandment of the Decalogue says: "Thou shalt not kill" (Exodus 20:13). God is the God of life, and always wants to promote and defend it; and we, created in his image and likeness, are called upon to do the same. Every human being, as a creature of God, is our brother, regardless of his or her origin or religious affiliation. Each person must be viewed with favour, just as God does, who offers his merciful hand to all, regardless of their faith and of their belonging, and who cares for those who most need him: the poor, the sick, the marginalized , the helpless. Where life is in danger, we are called even more to protect it. Neither violence nor death will have the last word before God, the God of love and life. We must pray with insistence to help us put into practice the logic of peace, of reconciliation, of forgiveness, of life, in Europe, in the Holy Land, in the Middle East, in Africa and elsewhere in the world. In its history, the Jewish people has had to experience violence and persecution, to the point of extermination of European Jews during the Holocaust. Six million people, just because they belonged to the Jewish people, were victims of the most inhumane barbarity perpetrated in the name of an ideology that wanted to replace God with man. On October 16, 1943, over a thousand men, women and children Rome’s Jewish community were deported to Auschwitz. Today I wish to remember them in a special way: their suffering, their fear, their tears must never be forgotten. And the past must serve as a lesson for the present and for the future. The Holocaust teaches us that utmost vigilance is always needed to be able to take prompt action in defense of human dignity and peace. I would like to express my closeness to every witness of the Holocaust who is still living; and I address a special greeting to those who are present here today.

Dear brothers, we really have to be thankful for all that has been realized in the last fifty years, because between us mutual understanding, mutual trust and friendship have grown and deepened. Let us pray together to the Lord, to lead the way to a better future. God has plans of salvation for us, as the prophet Jeremiah says: "I know well the plans I have in mind for you—oracle of the Lord - plans for your welfare and not for woe, so as to give you a future of hope" (Jer 29 , 11). “The LORD bless you and keep you! The LORD let his face shine upon you, and be gracious to you! The LORD look upon you kindly and give you peace! (cf. 6.24 to 26 Nm). Shalom Alechem!

So, I'm not Catholic. Jew wandered in by mistake. But aren't you guys obligated to follow his message?

[–]Lift4biff -2ポイント-1ポイント  (2子コメント)

hehe you think that is some guarantee of your salvation Pharisee?

God is faithful and loves Israel which is the church that was never in question?

Nothing I have said is contrary to the message contained by the Holy Father

It is a nice speech the pope gave to the Jews o

[–]qmechan 4ポイント5ポイント  (1子コメント)

Well A), not a Pharisee.

Glad to see that G-d is still loving Israel.

And it was a nice speech given to the Jews.

So my question is, how are we enemies in your mind? Is literally every non-Catholic your enemy?

[–]mycatholicaccount -1ポイント0ポイント  (3子コメント)

Define violent. Would Madagascar have been violent? People nowadays complain about the immigrants, the Muslims, or even still the blacks. But whose ideology of internationalism forces us all to live in this unnatural cosmopolitanism?? I say fight the cause not the symptoms.

[–]Ponce_the_Great 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

what about Madagscar?

Cosmopolitanism was something that existed even in the day of Rome (Christianity probably would not have spread and established itself if the world was eternally bound to setting up man made divisions between us by language or race (race being a thing that only became a big point of division in the last few centuries)

[–]mycatholicaccount 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

I think pluralism dooms nations. And we all know who the architects of modern pluralism are!

[–]Ponce_the_Great 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I don't shrugs but whatever.

[–][削除されました]  (4子コメント)

[removed]

    [–]Ponce_the_Great 5ポイント6ポイント  (1子コメント)

    Do u have a source for that sacrifice stuff?

    [–]secretlyaplant 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

    No because it isn't true

    [–]la_panaderia 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

    That's just not true.

    [–]kstew1288 4ポイント5ポイント  (4子コメント)

    What a cesspool of a website

    [–][削除されました]  (3子コメント)

    [deleted]

      [–]jailgunner_toe 5ポイント6ポイント  (1子コメント)

      Wood is a sedevacantist who used to be a commenter on Lawrence Auster's blog. She went off the reservation sometime after Auster passed away

      [–]RockNow 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

      She went off the reservation sometime after Auster passed away

      What do you mean by this? Honest question, I'm not a native-english speaker and have never heard this expression before

      [–]Rejex27 -1ポイント0ポイント  (3子コメント)

      I also thougt that studying the Talmud was not mainstream, and was more radical.

      [–][削除されました]  (1子コメント)

      [deleted]

        [–]Rejex27 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Hence the past tense

        [–]benadreti 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

        The Talmud is an essential part of Judaism, not radical at all. But the perspective you're getting here on what the Talmud is, is patently false.