全 54 件のコメント

[–]la_panaderia 9ポイント10ポイント  (5子コメント)

Let me preface this by saying I was raised an Orthodox Jew, which means I pretty much spent all my formative years studying the talmud for the better part of the day in its original Aramaic.

The Talmud does not have nice things to say about Jesus, however:

  • The authors of the talmud lived several hundred years after Jesus. Additionally, many were not in proximity to Christendom.
  • The Talmud is not entirely a compendium of Jewish law. There is a sections of the Talmud that are read as Aggaddah - legends, hearsay.
  • Jesus is not the only one singled out for Criticism. Pretty much any public figure not entirely in line with Rabbinic teaching gets similar treatment.
  • Jesus is not actually mentioned in the Mishna (which actually was contemporary with him), and some of the Mishnaic sages (Gamliel, for example) are also said to have been Christian sympathizers, it's reasonable to say that the hyperbole found in the Talmud is less about actual beliefs and views held at the time, and more about shocking potential converts to Christianity. There is very little in the Talmud (which is a huge compendium of rabbinic excerpts) talking about Jesus or Christianity.

I remember growing up there was very little in the way of Jewish doctrine pertaining to Jesus. Even when searching for these incriminating or interesting excerpts about Jesus, there was very little to be found. The only thing which was worth looking at was Toldot Yeshu

Edit: Rabban Gamliel being a Christian sympathizer is not supported by any non-Christian sources

[–]callsNputs 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

and some of the Mishnaic sages (Gamliel, for example) are also known to have been Christian sympathizers,

I'm sure that's exactly the reason why he instituted the bracha for minim in the shmoneh esrei.

Toldot Yeshu

A medieval forgery

[–]la_panaderia 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

Indeed. My point about Toldot Yeshu is that there isn't any serious Jewish text actually dealing with Jesus, and that most of current Jewish "lore" regarding Jesus is sourced in that.

[–]callsNputs 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

gotcha. I can only think of maybe 3 places Jesus is mentioned in the Talmud though, and even then it's contentious as to if it refers to Jesus as is known to Christianity or to a different second temple era sectarian.

I'm kind of surprised that everyone is shocked that someone who doesn't prescribe to and vehemently opposes certain religious beliefs or figures would think that they would be charitably described in the text.

[–]namer98 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

and some of the Mishnaic sages (Gamliel, for example) are also known to have been Christian sympathizers

Gonna need a source.

[–]Rejex27 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

Funny, I read just yesterday about St. Louis burning the Talmud thinking not everyone is perfect in everything they do. Then I read he did at the pope's behest, who behested him because of the blasphemy embedded in it.

[–]sakor88 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

Just wanted to say that I do not consider myself part of the "People of the Book". That is an Islamic concept and isn't it repugnant to the faith.

http://blogs.ancientfaith.com/glory2godforallthings/2014/10/01/bible-become-quran/

[–]Ponce_the_Great 6ポイント7ポイント  (35子コメント)

I usually see this type of stuff trotted out by groups before going into how the Jews are eternal arch enemies of the Church plotting its downfall and carrying out blood libel rituals and all that crap.

[–]MilesChristi 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

So...that doesn't mean the preceding information isn't true. Just because those who mention it tend towards that conclusion.

Read it, and come to your own conclusion.

[–]Ponce_the_Great -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

I did read. I realize this could be said better but "so what"

It is no scandal to realize non christians do not recognize the divinity of christ. they reflect the view that seems quite reasonable to conclude for one who does not recognize Jesus as the son of God.

Though now i would be interested to hear a Jewish response.

My conclusion is that the point for this article is simply as propoganda for the Jew enemy of the christians etc

[–]PAPIST_SUBVERSIVE 6ポイント7ポイント  (3子コメント)

You're right, nobody could possibly criticize a disgusting book like the Talmud without thinking the Jews are lizard people who control world finance.

[–]jailgunner_toe 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

What what is worth, Laura Wood does think Jews control world finance (idk about lizard people). Which is ironic considering she was close to the late blogger Lawrence Auster, a Jewish convert to Christianity who was extremely sensitive to antisemitism

[–]mycatholicaccount 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

Well I think you have to distinguish between the Jews literally and something like "Jewish consciousness" which is something like the distinction between the Visible and Invisible Church; there's a lot of overlap but not perfect correspondence. Jewish Consciousness can definitely be identified with capitalism and communism, with cultural Marxism, and with the forces that currently control finance, the media, and politics. Really, it can be identified with any sort of unnatural Internationalism which is imminent rather than transcendent and which seeks to poison the universe through its perpetual Revolution against Nature.

[–]Ponce_the_Great -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

people (in my experience on the web) usually only bring up the stuff to support their positions against the Jews.

[–]Stopwatch064 -5ポイント-4ポイント  (4子コメント)

Under certain circumstances in Talmudic Judaism it is permissible to sacrifice children. Also who cares if people use this to justify hatred, does not make the information false.

[–]Ponce_the_Great 4ポイント5ポイント  (1子コメント)

Do u have a source for that sacrifice stuff?

[–]secretlyaplant 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

No because it isn't true

[–]callsNputs -2ポイント-1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Remember that time you made stuff up and posted it online for everyone to read?

[–]SabaziosZagreus 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Jew here. First off, need to mention that the official religion of Israel is not Orthodox Judaism. Further, the Talmud is not simply a text of Orthodox Judaism. The Talmud is an important religious text in every branch of Judaism. Reform, Conservative, and Orthodox Jews all utilize the Talmud.

Anyway, the Talmud might contain references to Jesus. It's inconclusive. The Talmud has references to a "Yeshu" or a "Jesus" a few times. However, these references contradict one another. Some of these references describe figures who lived centuries apart. Some of these references describe figures with different backgrounds and parentage. They can't all refer to the same person, and why should they? The name "Jesus" wasn't exactly an uncommon name. Might some of the references refer to Jesus of Nazareth? Sure. Which ones? Who knows.

If any of these conflicting references to the various Jesuses are taken to refer to Jesus of Nazareth, what do we learn?

First we learn that the rabbis of the Talmud must have had little knowledge of Jesus. None of the references (if we take them to refer to Jesus of Nazareth) show a knowledge of even trivial details of Jesus' life. That's to be expected. The Talmudic rabbis lived in Babylonia. Christianity was a distant religion practiced by a distant people. All the Talmudic rabbis heard would be second and third hand stories. What they heard about Jesus of Nazareth could easily have been confused and meshed with tales of other dissenters from Judaism as time went on. It was important to preserve laws and traditions, you can imagine it was less important to memorize little stories of dissenters from Judaism.

We secondly learn (regardless of whether any of the Jesuses in the Talmud are Jesus of Nazareth) that the primary emotion the rabbis of the Talmud had towards Jesus was not negative. The primary attitude the rabbis of the Talmud had towards Jesus was a lack of interest. The Talmud is thousands of pages long. In those thousands of pages, there are only a few offhand references which could possible refer to Jesus. As those offhand references contradict with one another, only a fraction of them could refer to the same Jesus. So we have thousands of pages of text and only a handful of possible references to Jesus of Nazareth. Clearly the overwhelming opinion the rabbis of the Talmud had regarding Jesus was indifference.

So altogether, there's little reason to be bothered by anything in the Talmud. With the first point in mind, we realize that any possible references to Jesus are offhand statements made without actual understanding of any of the fundamentals of Christianity. With the second point in mind, we realize that the overwhelming view of Jesus and Christianity is not negative, but indifferent.

[–]kstew1288 3ポイント4ポイント  (4子コメント)

What a cesspool of a website

[–]BugLamentations 7ポイント8ポイント  (3子コメント)

;)

[–]jailgunner_toe 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

Wood is a sedevacantist who used to be a commenter on Lawrence Auster's blog. She went off the reservation sometime after Auster passed away

[–]RockNow 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

She went off the reservation sometime after Auster passed away

What do you mean by this? Honest question, I'm not a native-english speaker and have never heard this expression before

[–]Rejex27 -1ポイント0ポイント  (3子コメント)

I also thougt that studying the Talmud was not mainstream, and was more radical.

[–]benadreti 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

The Talmud is an essential part of Judaism, not radical at all. But the perspective you're getting here on what the Talmud is, is patently false.