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(PA) Mother of employee under 18yo constantly harassing and threatening the store, is this grounds to fire the employee? (self.legaladvice)

ClassHeroes が 投稿

PA family owned super market, ive got a wonderful cashier who we'll call ABC. ABC is a fantastic employee with very little to complain about, and does her job well. Her mother however, is a different beast.

She comes in 2-3 times a month(worked here for about 6 months now) to complain about her daughters schedule, demanding we match what the mother wants rather than us assigning her daughter a schedule. And over the last 3 months shes threatened to sue us, and hire lawyers to battle us because we wont match her schedule on grounds of PA child labor laws.

she works around 25 hours per week, and her longest days of employment are 8 hours with a 30 minute break.

the most recent one, is we had a customer apparently hit on the cashier who is a minor. Upon hearing the story, the mother is now threatening to report us to police for failing to protect her daughter from harassment in the workplace from customers.

is the mothers harassment enough grounds to fire an employee even though the employee has done nothing wrong herself?

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[–]ZanctmaoQuality Contributor 325ポイント326ポイント  (22子コメント)

Have you considered just trespassing the mom?

[–]ClassHeroes[S] 218ポイント219ポイント  (14子コメント)

Never even had this thought occur to me. You're right, this makes infinitely more sense and I also get to keep ABC! Can't believe it never crossed my mind. Thank you very much

[–]HTDJ 105ポイント106ポイント  (6子コメント)

I highly doubt the mother will let her daughter work there if you ban the mother.

[–]bastardblaster 114ポイント115ポイント  (3子コメント)

That's true, but it's nut worth putting up with someone's bad behavior. If that happens, inform the employee that she is welcome back at eighteen.

[–]HTDJ 9ポイント10ポイント  (0子コメント)

Agreed!!

[–]ohnochin 10ポイント11ポイント  (1子コメント)

it's nut worth putting up

Mom is a nut, indeed.

[–]bastardblaster 11ポイント12ポイント  (0子コメント)

Stupid phone. I'm leaving it.

[–]DirtyPiss 31ポイント32ポイント  (0子コメント)

While you're right that means they likely won't get to keep ABC any longer, at least they'll be quitting as opposed to getting fired.

[–]Alster551 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

It seems like OP would be prepared to fire the employee anyway if it was legal

[–]CoffeeFox 32ポイント33ポイント  (2子コメント)

Thanks for being open to alternative suggestions. I know if I were that cashier, especially at that age, I would have been very flustered at being fired for a parent's actions if I was a good employee. It would probably send home a really cynical lesson about employment.

[–]anonymousforever 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I know it. It's why I suggested bringing a note home that mom's behavior is why her job is at risk, that being the written warning she's at risk of losing said job and having no income at all. Might get her to confront mother and argue that the hours she's assigned are within the labor laws... and the teen's fine with them, even if mom's got a different opinion... and the option is no job at all otherwise. So pick... time to grow up mom and let go a bit.

[–]UristMcFinn 24ポイント25ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'll bet the daughter thanks you for doing it.

[–]ZanctmaoQuality Contributor 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Glad I could help.

[–]Myfourcats1 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

The mom can still call you or email you if she finds that.

[–]anonymousforever 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Having the employee bring home a written warning that mom is the one who is putting the daughter's job at risk for interfering with the running of the business... maybe the mother will realize she's overstepping her boundaries... one could hope. My ex-bf cost me a job like this... but he actually showed up and wouldn't leave, vs argue about work schedules.

[–]Snidgetless 179ポイント180ポイント  (1子コメント)

This... Just flat out ban the mother. If she comes back, call the police. If she calls, hire a lawyer to write the letter.

[–]ZanctmaoQuality Contributor 69ポイント70ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yeah this would solve the problem. Keep mom out while keeping the valuable employee - and if your employee you didn't like it they would be the one quitting.

[–]Beard_sniffer 56ポイント57ポイント  (0子コメント)

I worked at a drugstore for a while. This is how we dealt with all problem individuals.

We would ask them to leave and not come back. The next time they showed up (or if they refused to leave in the first place) we would call the police and have them trespassed and removed from the property. Worked like a charm.

Of course none of these people had relatives who were current employees or other legitimate ties to the store.

I still think it's a much better option than terminating a good employee.

[–]Dongalor 25ポイント26ポイント  (3子コメント)

I dealt with similar issues a few times back in the days when I used to work in the restaurant industry, and this is what I had to do a few times.

My first course of action was just to pull the employee into the office and have a candid conversation with them. Let them know that you hired them (and not their mother) and inform them that they need to work this out in such a way as to keep the mother happy without my having to deal with them. I also let them know that if their availability changed to the point that I couldn't use them, then I couldn't use them.

The implication was always that I might have to let them go if they couldn't sort it. Sometimes they quit, sometimes they worked it out, and sometimes mom showed up screaming and they got trespassed.

[–]BeaHubot 91ポイント92ポイント  (3子コメント)

I expect the employee will eventually end up posting in /r/relationships about how her mother keeps getting her fired from jobs.

[–]speakingofcrazy 36ポイント37ポイント  (1子コメント)

yep or RBN

[–]retroverted_uterus 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

I really feel for that poor girl.

[–]Liambass 48ポイント49ポイント  (3子コメント)

Seems a shame to fire a good employee over something outside of her control. I doubt it would do any good but is it not worth trying to explain to the mother that her actions are jeopardising her daughters employment?

[–]countykerry 31ポイント32ポイント  (1子コメント)

i agree that it is a shame, but helicopter parents like that don't care about anything other than what they perceive to be "best" for their child.

[–]rareas 29ポイント30ポイント  (0子コメント)

What's best for this child is making sure her checks are deposited into an account with only the child's name on it.

[–]oddmanout 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I worked at JC Penney for a while when I was in college, in the 9 months I was there, this happened to two different people. One was a 17 year old girl whose mother kept calling to change her schedule like in OP's story, and one was this girl's absurdly jealous/paranoid/territorial boyfriend who used to come stand in the women's section and just watch his girlfriend work. He freaked out all the other people who worked there and they told her she had to make him leave, when he came back the next day, they just told her to go home.

Both of them were good workers, but they had to let them go because it was dragging everyone else down.

[–]BlatantConservative 106ポイント107ポイント  (6子コメント)

You can legally fire anyone for pretty much any reason, but that seems really unfair to your employee IMO.

Why not just ban the mother from the store and ignore all communication from her?

[–]DeathWalkingTerror 26ポイント27ポイント  (2子コメント)

ignore all communication from her?

Unless she actually files a lawsuit. You don't want the mother to win a default judgment.

[–]zuriel45 12ポイント13ポイント  (0子コメント)

She'll get the store and put it down....and now i'm sad....

[–]Emsjunki3 22ポイント23ポイント  (0子コメント)

I think the fact that op is seeking advice on how to deal with the situation while keeping the employee is going above and beyond because most people would just fire the employee and ban the mother. I think /u/classheroes should talk to the employee first and let her know her mother is a problem and they may ban her and they understand that they may unfortunately lose her as an employee because of it and maybe offer her a letter of recommendation. I think it's great that op, as an employer, is looking out for his/her employees.

[–]ashaw596 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

Well, any reason other than discrimination. But this doesn't count as discrimination.

[–]ifisa 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

And then only illegal discrimination - which is admittedly implied by your statement, because any time you fire a person you are discriminating in the general sense.

[–]Pteromys44 37ポイント38ポイント  (2子コメント)

Tell the employee that her mom is a liability, but do what you can to keep her employed. You will have a very grateful and loyal employee if you keep her on despite her whackjob mom

[–]unevolved_panda 18ポイント19ポイント  (1子コメント)

Agreed. Also do ABC a favor and make it really really clear to the employee that, while she understandably doesn't have much power over her mom now, she must find a way to put a stop to this before she starts relying on her employment for rent/food/etc. Mom is going to seriously damage her daughter's professional reputation and employment prospects if she gets in the habit of calling her daughter's employers.

You could (besides banning her) also make it clear that you will only discuss your employee's job with your employee, and not with family members.

[–]ruralife 11ポイント12ポイント  (0子コメント)

make it clear that you will only discuss your employee's job with your employee, and not with family members.

We operate a small, family business and many of our employees are under 18. We make it clear from the start that we will only discuss their work and hours with them. It's all part of being old enough to hold a job. Occasionally, one will have a helicopter mother. Those are the worst, but we maintain the line, and consistently tell the parent that we are not able to discuss child's work with the parent, and the parent can ask their child, if they feel it's necessary. After hearing this a few times, most back off.

[–]AnotherGuyinOhioQuality Contributor 56ポイント57ポイント  (28子コメント)

The daughter is an at-will employee and can be fired for nearly anything, including an annoying mom, or nothing. Though if she is part of a union that may not be true

[–]djsjjdQuality Contributor 24ポイント25ポイント  (3子コメント)

Yep. OP: If you fire her, don't give her any reason for the termination. Just tell her she is no longer needed and make sure her final paycheck is accurate.

[–]Dweali 27ポイント28ポイント  (1子コメント)

I don't know it might be fun when daughter tells mom that she was fired because of mom's actions....a giant pain in the butt, also at least daughter would know it wasn't because of her own work ethic

[–]legacymedia92 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Except she sounds crazy enough to file suit. (not that she'd win)

[–]WarKittyKat 10ポイント11ポイント  (0子コメント)

This seems like a bad idea. In this case, the reason for firing isn't illegal, and the employee deserves to know why.

[–]-d0ubt 1ポイント2ポイント  (23子コメント)

I don't get this. Where I come from (Scotland) you need a reason to fire someone, otherwise couldn't you fire someone for being gay, or Jewish, or in an interracial marriage or something? This just seems weird to me.

[–]PM_ME_HOLE_PICS 21ポイント22ポイント  (14子コメント)

You cannot fire someone for being gay or Jewish. You can, however, fire the gay Jewish man for "no reason".

[–]partyhat 14ポイント15ポイント  (2子コメント)

Further, in much of the United States sexual orientation isn't a protected class, so it's completely legal to fire someone for being gay.

[–]TDStrange 10ポイント11ポイント  (1子コメント)

It's state by state. And really, municipality by municipality in Pennsylvania.

[–]partyhat 9ポイント10ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yep. It was municipality by municipality in North Carolina, until last month our General Assembly forbid local protections.

[–]-d0ubt 6ポイント7ポイント  (3子コメント)

But could you just claim that it was for no reason, and just not admit to the real reason?

[–]WarKittyKat 17ポイント18ポイント  (1子コメント)

Yes. That's why discrimination suits so rarely work, unless there's either a large enough group for a class action or someone is dumb enough to admit the real reason.

[–]-d0ubt 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

Thanks for the info.

[–]TDStrange 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yes. As long as the employee doesn't have it in writing, or on tape, that they were fired for being a protected class (race, religion, some places sexuality), it's REALLY hard to win a discrimination suit. Welcome to America!

[–]Bob_Sconce 1ポイント2ポイント  (5子コメント)

Eh... There's always a reason.

[–]PM_ME_HOLE_PICS 0ポイント1ポイント  (4子コメント)

That would be why I used quotation marks, yes.

[–]Bob_Sconce -2ポイント-1ポイント  (3子コメント)

But, my point is that if you're sued, you can't say "no reason." that's like the ultimate pretext for illegal discrimination. You have to present a reason, and it has to be believable. Otherwise, you run a strong risk that a jury is going to decide "he fired him for his race, not this made-up excuse."

[–]PM_ME_HOLE_PICS 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

That's incorrect. At-will employment means you can fire anyone for no "just cause". In the majority of the US, "no reason" is a perfectly acceptable reason to fire someone.

[–]Bob_Sconce -1ポイント0ポイント  (1子コメント)

You're missing my point.

First, there is ALWAYS a reason, some motivation to take the action of terminating a person's employment. The employee does not need to be told what that reason is when you fire them, but that does not mean that the reason doesn't exist.

Second, if there is an employment discrimination lawsuit, the first question that you will be asked is "why did you fire him?" If you say "no reason," then nobody is going to believe you (because there is ALWAYS a reason). Correspondingly, they'll wonder what the actual reason is and are likely to presume that you don't want to admit to the actual reason.

This is why better-run companies create paper trails before firing somebody, especially a person who might be suspected of being fired for a prohibited reason. If there is a lawsuit alleging that the person was fired for their sex, race, whatever, then they can say "No, we fired him/her because of performance/business downturn/etc... Here's the evidence." They don't say "No, we didn't fire him because he's gay; we just fired him for no reason."

[–]PM_ME_HOLE_PICS 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

OK.

Point is, "no reason" is a valid reason to fire someone almost anywhere. It is completely legal.

[–]eric987235 -2ポイント-1ポイント  (0子コメント)

In many states you can fire somebody for being gay.

:-(

[–]fuckinayyylmao 0ポイント1ポイント  (7子コメント)

In the States, in general, you can be fired for any reason unless you are a member of a protected class.

[–]TYFPBc6Zp8xS 18ポイント19ポイント  (5子コメント)

More like, as an employer you can fire anyone for any reason EXCEPT you can't fire them just for being a member of a protected class. The way you phrased it makes it sound like members of minorities cannot be fired, ever.

[–]pivolover 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

To further clarify, white people and Christian people are a "protected class." It's not that someone is a minority, it's that you cannot make personnel decisions based on race, religion, gender, etc. It's just as illegal to refuse to hire someone for being white as it is to refuse to hire someone for being black.

[–]fuckinayyylmao 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yes. A good clarification!

[–]Callmedory 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yes, emphasis on the "just for being a member of a protected class." You can fire FOR anything else, just not that.

[–]whooope 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

More like, as an employer you can fire anyone for any reason EXCEPT you can't fire them just for being a member of a protected class. The way you phrased it makes it sound like members of minorities cannot be fired, ever.

Sometimes employers are afraid of firing someone from a protected class, even if tue reason for firing is work ethic. This is because they may use their protected class as black mail or for black media

[–]Blizzaldo 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

I've heard of the Black media, but not Black mail. Is this some new post office run entirely by blacks for blacks?

[–]pivolover 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

It's not that a person is in a "protected class," it's that you can't make employment decisions based on race, religion, sex, etc. (depending on jurisdiction) Everyone is in a protected class if they have or don't have a race or religion or gender.

[–]AsciiTxt 11ポイント12ポイント  (2子コメント)

If ABC ends up leaving your employment for whatever reason you would do her a real solid by writing a glowing letter of reference. That way if you end up letting her go she knows her mom cost her the job and not her performance and she gets something she can use to procure her next job.

[–]horsenbuggy 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

But that could harm their own reputation. If i received a glowing ketter of recommendation and then had to deal with this nut job mother, I'd never trust the person who wrote the letter again.

[–]AsciiTxt 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

That is a valid point.

[–]cld8 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

The short answer is yes. You don't need to give a reason to fire an employee. You can fire her for any reason other than a protected characteristic such as race or religion.

With that said, I suggest you not link these two issues. Treat the mom like any other customer who behaves in this way. Have a manager talk to her, kick her out, and issue a trespass notice (in that order). Don't make it about the employee at all.

[–]STylerMLmusic 11ポイント12ポイント  (2子コメント)

First off, are you obliging all the child labour laws?

Secondly, ban her. She has no right to how you conduct your business, and her child has assumed the work of dealing with customers, there's no failing to protect her happening here.

[–]frostus_wx 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

The employee can be dismissed for good cause, bad cause, or no cause at all, generally speaking. The mother has no case and is full of crap. I assume the minor employee has a valid work permit or such, if it is required in your jurisdiction.

[–]Qikdraw 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Have you talked to the employee about this? What are her thoughts?

As a side not since you are in retail... /r/talesfromretail and www.retailcomic.com Although the comic deals with a place more like a Walmart or Sears. Still funny though.

[–]bicyclerabbit 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

You don't need grounds to fire an employee except in Montana.

[–]DanDub81 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

PA is an "at will" state. You can fire someone for any reason as long as it's not a violation of the race/sex/religion rules.

[–]Tinycowz 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Why dont you just ban the mom from the store and be done with it? This poor girl will probably be forced to quit anyway, but try to give her the benefit of just banning her crazy mother.

[–]Grimsterr 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Pretty sure "child of insane mother" is not a protected class, you can fire her. Sounds like she may as well get used to it now because it sounds like this won't be the last job her mother causes her to lose.

[–]diggtrucks1025 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

PA is at At Will employment state. You can fire anyone for zero reason. You don't have to say why you are firing someone.

[–]Philanthropiss 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

If you work in a at-will state you can fire them for having a mom.

[–]purefabulousity 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

The upside of at-will employment, in your situation, is that you don't need a reason to fire her.

[–]sovietlovesocks 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

dude, don't fire the kid - just hire the mom. she sounds bored.

[–]anonymousforever 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Just ancecdotal, but I lost a job because my interfering, possessive boyfriend would not stay away while I was on the job... and there was no recourse. So I would say that as long as there was nothing illegal about her scheduled hours due to age and working minor laws, etc, then if the sole problem was the mother's 'helicopter parenting' then yep... I'd say her case would be no different than mine was... an interfering relation is causing workplace difficulties, they were warned, and so it's time to part ways.

If you decide to be nice due to her age, and gave verbal and written warnings first as a courtesy... and perhaps tell her to show the written one to mother, to try to get her to back off and give the kid a chance... if that's not heeded... then I'd say you've got your evidence to fire her for cause after a written warning, for interfering with the running of the business.

Mom needs to butt out and get a life.... she obviously can't stand it that the kid needs to grow up!

[–]PM_SNACKS 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

You can totally fire her. If she worked for my former pizza boss, she'd be toast already.

[–]RocheCoach 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Have you tried talking to the employee, that her mother's actions are close to causing her to lose her job? It's up to your employee to take care of this, and if she can't, then you have every right to fire her.

[–]recalcitrantdonut 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

My mother just told me she hopes the dog I'm going to meet on Wednesday bites me! Got offered a pet sitting job over Xmas, she's not happy because I'll somehow be ruining Xmas. Now that I've established my credentials as someone with a crazy mother... My two cents:

Employee is probably aware that mother is crazy but for various reasons doesn't have much control over the situation. Definitely sit the employee down and explain that mother is causing problems, I think banning her from the store is a good idea. Mother will probably make ABC quit. Explain that you think they are a good worker and don't want to fire them, but that you understand if they are bullied into quitting. Offer a good reference, employee is probably aware that the shenanigans will continue until they move out and cut contact, so I wouldn't say too much about mother ruining future jobs for them because that may lead to them feeling worse about the whole situation.

[–]wolfofone -3ポイント-2ポイント  (4子コメント)

Are minors allowed to work 8 hour shifts with only a 30 minute break? 0.o If that's okay in your state then thats okay. The mothers other arguments are just crazy talk and should be ignored. As other posters have said, just ban her from the store heh

[–]unevolved_panda 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

Depends on how minor the minor is and what state she's in; I started working 8.5 hr shifts when I was 16.

[–]Sadimal 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

On non-school days yes. On school days minors can only work 3-6 hours after school depending on how old the minor is.

[–]wolfofone 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Ah, okay. I only asked because I've worked retail and there were kids under 18 that had a lot of restrictions on what they were allowed to work hours wise and/or had to have more breaks e.g. I could choose to take a half hour lunch but they could not and had to take an hour. That may have just been company policy though. And was in IL.

[–]StarOriole 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

As far as I know, yes. Pennsylvania requires that minors who work at least 5 consecutive hours get at least one unpaid 30-minute break. Adults have no legal right to breaks of any length in PA.