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[–]ZeeBeeDoop 2529ポイント2530ポイント  (257子コメント)

'Women and girls with Asperger syndrome may be better at masking their difficulties in order to fit in with their peers and have a more even profile of social skills in general.' From www.autism.org.uk

The above quote explains why it can be harder to diagnose in girls/women imo. Have a look on the website and I'm happy to answer any further questions :)

[–]Nigga_gonna_nig 581ポイント582ポイント  (207子コメント)

What why is it that women have an easier time masking their autism than a man?

[–]unimpresseddragon 1359ポイント1360ポイント  (112子コメント)

I've read that this is actually just a result of conditioning, out society is more likely to "allow" behaviour that is out of the ordinary in boys, so to speak, so girls with autism are more likely to be forced to change their behaviours.

[–]louiseifer 126ポイント127ポイント  (9子コメント)

Additionally, certain autism traits, such as quietness, staying home rather than socialising/partying, and being invested in study or reading books are desirable traits in an adolescent /teen girl. Where a boy with these behaviours may lead his parents to wonder if he's okay, his female counterpart is a "good girl". Her occasional meltdowns are dismissed as hormonal.

[–]Imissmyusername 21ポイント22ポイント  (0子コメント)

My dad still brags about how good I was, how I was so quiet that he'd have to find me to check on me. Saw nothing wrong with me spending about 8 hours a day reading. Meltdowns fucking suck and I was "just overreacting".

[–]cryophelia 8ポイント9ポイント  (1子コメント)

Yeah indeed, parents might be more likely to view those as desirable traits because they want to protect their girls, whereas they are more likely to view the same traits in their sons as antisocial and want to seek interventions.

[–]Emi194 7ポイント8ポイント  (5子コメント)

... I'm now feeling like I may actually have this. I have always been a awkward bookwormy wallflower type and I'm wondering if that's why and I've just naturally managed to cover the symptoms, I previously dismissed it as being a awkward teen but it really explains alot if it is really the problem..

[–]louiseifer 12ポイント13ポイント  (4子コメント)

It took me until I was 28 to discover i was on the spectrum. It's a surreal experience as an adult, and as a grown woman some people will straight up tell you it can't be true (even when you point out that your psychiatrist says it is). It's typecast as a syndrome for 11 year old boys and that's all anybody can imagine.

If you look on google (I'm on mobile or if give you some links) you'll find lists of Aspergers traits in women, and also the autism women's network. It could be true that you just have a few of these traits without being on the spectrum, but it's definitely worth looking into.

[–]Emi194 8ポイント9ポイント  (3子コメント)

I'm 22. I just looked them up on my way to work and nearly cried on the bus because I relate to like 70% of them.. I actually feel so much better knowing it might actually not just me being awkward and this is why I struggle with female friendships..

[–]Imissmyusername 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

It was a huge relief to me when I was diagnosed at 25, I legit thought I was somewhat crazy before that.

[–]Emi194 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

i've never felt crazy but i have felt like im on the outside, ive never had real friendships, especially girls ive always got on with guys better. it feels wierd knowing that theres a reason, though part of me feels kind of angry knowing i possibly will never have those experiences.

[–]louiseifer 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

You can PM me if you want to talk about any of this. It's fairly new to me too (I'm 30 now) but it helps to have someone to sound off against.

[–]wasamasaw 925ポイント926ポイント  (36子コメント)

on the other side of the same coin, society may just view responses to symptoms as "women's trouble" and dismiss them.

Additionally, the first studies into autism researched only male children. For a while nobody was even looking for autism in females.

[–]courtoftheair 175ポイント176ポイント  (16子コメント)

That's because the only problem those simple women-folk experience is hysteria! Or, the newfangled rebrand Borderline Personality disorder!

[–]Kingreaper 41ポイント42ポイント  (15子コメント)

Is BPD really seen as a female disorder?

I'm a man who suffers with BPD, and I'd never heard of it being associated with women previously.

[–]courtoftheair 94ポイント95ポイント  (8子コメント)

It's about 75%, though it used to be even higher. Enough that a lot of questions are being raised, I'm really surprised you haven't come across it before.

Obviously there are many people that actually suffer with BPD, but it's also diagnosed whenever a woman is seen as 'difficult'/the doctors can't decide on another diagnosis, or if they are displaying behaviours that don't conform with traditional female roles (anger in appropriate situations that would be considered normal for men, for example). The high percentage of childhood abuse survivors, particularly child sexual abuse, also suggests that a lot of those women are actually suffering from a form of PTSD (complex PTSD is the name they tend to use, but it's not an official disorder). If you search google you'll find a lot of information about it.

[–]expatica 17ポイント18ポイント  (6子コメント)

Wow. This is so interesting. My experience growing up was horrific and to this day I always put it down to my family/parents not understanding why I wasn't the way they wanted. I was diagnosed with BPD and like... a plethora of other mental disorders because I wouldn't act like a "normal" girl/daughter when really I was being emotionally and mentally abused. I was depressed, that's it. And me lashing out in anyway because I was a 15 year old girl, depressed, and had every moment of my time online and on my phone recorded and looked at, not allowed to go over friends houses, etc. when my siblings had none of these things happening restricted or put on them- it wasn't unwarranted. I no longer speak to my family, but the last "conversation" was that they said they would pull all support unless I went to rehab for BPD... even though I was living on my own in NYC, had a job, and hadn't seen them in months. I said fine, pull it, they did, I went on food stamps, got a job in Australia and moved. I always thought being armchair diagnosed Borderline by my parent's psychiatrists when their doctors had never seen me or anything seemed literally insane, so I never believed it.

But now hearing that it's the modern day "women are hysterical" makes so much sense. I'm a normal woman with normal relationships, my friends are my family now. I can support myself, and yeah I'm as fucked up as the next person, but I'm not borderline. Fuck them.

[–]motdidr 3ポイント4ポイント  (5子コメント)

you never saw a doctor or therapist yourself? I believe you, just saying. sounds like it's something that's bothered you for a while and you never checked up on it yourself?

[–]expatica 7ポイント8ポイント  (4子コメント)

Oh I've been to plenty. But the only ones who actually diagnosed me with anything diagnosed me with depression. My parents have been telling me that their doctors think I have BPD and Bipolar and etc. which... of course they do. They've never met me and they're going off the bias of your side.

And of course my parents take their doctors' words over mine though.

[–]Kingreaper 32ポイント33ポイント  (0子コメント)

It's about 75%, though it used to be even higher. Enough that a lot of questions are being raised, I'm really surprised you haven't come across it before.

I hadn't really thought to look into it; and while I'm involved in some gender politics communities and some mental health communities it had never come up in either.

The information is kind of interesting. It seems to be in a similar state to Autistic Spectrum disorders (there's clearly some bias in diagnosis, but there's also some evidence that the disorder may actually have a different prevalence by gender)

Then again, given comorbidities, mental and neurological issues are always complicated (says the guy whose diagnosis includes "Clinical Depression", "Bipolar Disorder", "Borderline Personality Disorder" and "possible Autism")

The high percentage of childhood abuse survivors, particularly child sexual abuse, also suggests that a lot of those women are actually suffering from a form of PTSD (complex PTSD is the name they tend to use, but it's not an official disorder). If you search google you'll find a lot of information about it.

The psychiatrist who diagnosed me actually described BPD as a close relative of PTSD, primarily being caused by long-term trauma during childhood; which certainly fits with that.

[–]Kate2point718 21ポイント22ポイント  (3子コメント)

Yes, very much so in my experience.

I've known guys with it and it seemed like those guys really obviously fit the diagnosis, while it just gets slapped on to any woman with problems that can't be easily solved even if they don't meet the full criteria.

[–]RamenNoodlezHair 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Exactly. It's so prominent that BPD had been given the unofficial title of "wastebasket diagnosis".

[–]Nonethewiserer 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

Like what?

[–]Kate2point718 8ポイント9ポイント  (0子コメント)

Well, self-injury is one really common one. Not everyone who self-harms has BPD, but often just self-harm gets women diagnosed with BPD.

[–]kithmswbd 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

Similar to studies cited in the heart disease part of this thread, there have been blind diagnosis studies. The identical scenario is written up and presented to doctors. If the profile says the patient is male they were more likely to be labeled antisocial PD, if female, borderline PD. Also if the PD caused legal or substance problems it was more likely antisocial and relationship issues were sorted into borderline even though both pds can absolutely cause all those outcomes. Cluster B is an absolute diagnostic mess with overlap.

[–]Nonethewiserer 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

In the unscientific sense, yes. I mean peopke speaking liberally about it and not literally.

[–]kniselydone[🍰] 43ポイント44ポイント  (2子コメント)

Along with most diseases/disorders. Women's health is very far behind and sadly, this makes it more dangerous for women to go through treatments and take meds we've designed around men.

[–]CutthroatKitten 4ポイント5ポイント  (1子コメント)

if I didn't have bills I'd give you gold. You really hit the nail on the head here

[–]kniselydone[🍰] 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Thanks for the sentiment. Feel free to show anyone who doesn't have bills my post ;)

...mainly so I can talk to them about how to have no bills.

[–]Miather 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

Autism studies still don't have many females in them. I'm a HFA lady and I was in ~10 studies as teen. I remember seeing the results abs stuff like 1 female, 16 males and 3 females 20 males in them

[–]eric22vhs 11ポイント12ポイント  (13子コメント)

Really?

I can't imagine a girl's awkwardness being dismissed as 'women's troubles', but I can imagine people not noticing that a girl's behavior is strange because they don't expect the girl to be overly outspoken. Guys are sized up more for their personalities than women. Way more.

[–]justchloe 79ポイント80ポイント  (8子コメント)

It is not so much 'women's troubles' as it is socially acceptable for a girl to be shy and quiet, low eye contact is considered coy and an obsession with horses or books or history is acceptable. Females with Aspergers are also much better at social mimicry. I felt like I didn't have my own personality until I was about 24 (diagnosed at 25) because in order to fit in I needed to pretend to be like everyone else. When I fucked up it was usually discounted for me having a bad day because usually I was alright.

On the inside I had no idea who I was, I was giving way to much to everyone else and the stress, anxiety and depression that came from it was debilitating. But I smiled and was polite and tried my best because that was what was expected of me.

[–]dontbothermeimatwork 32ポイント33ポイント  (0子コメント)

Females with Aspergers are also much better at social mimicry. I felt like I didn't have my own personality until I was about 24 (diagnosed at 25) because in order to fit in I needed to pretend to be like everyone else.

I think this may be it. Woman generally score much higher on tests regarding empathy. That same empathy should allow them to mimic "normal" social interaction much more successfully than their male counterparts. Social fakery is key to functioning well in society while being on the spectrum.

I was/am terrible at discerning what people want or expect from any social situation. I didn't really get the hang of the mimicry until my late 20's and it cost me heavily.

[–]wasamasaw 29ポイント30ポイント  (2子コメント)

That's kind of my point. That for a lot of social groups, they don't consider women enough to even bother sizing up their personalities. If a woman behaves in one way or most any other, there are plenty of people that would just go "....women. right?"

Or "bitches be crazy."

of course, there's always "boys will be boys."

Thinking about other people at length isn't on many people's agendas, I guess.

[–]eric22vhs 5ポイント6ポイント  (1子コメント)

Bitches be crazy usually refers to girls acting crazy.. Boys will be boys usually refers to boys acting foolish.

You're missing my point that shyness or weird personality quirks aren't noticed because there's less weight on them. That's not the same as people dismissing them as 'women's issues' or saying women are crazy... That's a simple fact that personality is under less of a microscope when it comes to women.

[–]wasamasaw 9ポイント10ポイント  (0子コメント)

And my point is your last sentence with "so of course autistic symptoms would go unnoticed."

[–]Methylenie 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I do not have data beyond Asperger's original 1944 report which suggested this in a way, but it maybe that boys may be more violent during a temper tantrum (like throwing chairs at teachers) than girls. This behavior may prompt psych visits. I believe a high level of eccentricity is tolerated by adults so the actual symptoms don't trigger concern until fights start happening on the yard (other kids do not tolerate eccentricity).

I don't know of any studies suggesting boy aspies are more likely to get physical with others during a meltdown compared to girls.

[–]7teen38 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

this maks me kinda upset idk

[–]supershinythings 42ポイント43ポイント  (0子コメント)

I would imagine girls on the spectrum were termed, "wallflowers", and immediately dismissed and ignored. That of course reinforces the behavior and ignores the root cause. Society just pigeonholes them and they stay there.

[–]kb_lock 13ポイント14ポイント  (1子コメント)

Not really autism related but girls also tend to be more social, I was reading a paper not long ago about autism reduction through better social conditioning (with siblings).

Could there be a link with social expectations, conditioning, or just predisposition to socialising that women have which lessens the effect of autism?

[–]No_Fudge 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Not really autism related... predisposition to socialising that women have which lessens the effect of autism?

Nah but I like your idea though. Makes sense.

[–]SSK144 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

They may also have restricted interests that are more typically seen as "normal", such as fashion or makeup or something along those lines. Someone with those interests, even if they were extreme, probably wouldn't be seen as having a problem. There hadn't been a lot of past research on "high-functioning" women with ASD but it's picking up.

[–]beanyadult 21ポイント22ポイント  (19子コメント)

Wouldn't that explain the other way though? If boys are allowed much more than girls in terms of weird behavior, then weird girls are much more likely to be taken to the doctor to see what's wrong with them.

[–]morsmordreme 14ポイント15ポイント  (18子コメント)

You'd think so! It's counter-intuitive, for sure. Basically what happens is that little boys are allowed more strange behaviours than little girls. So, yes, Asperger's in females is easier to spot in this sense, but what actually ends up happening is that girls change the way they interact in order to fit in and not be noticed. They are criticised for these behaviours. This is the "disallow" part.

The "allow" part comes in in that the young boy is told "boys will be boys" and so his behaviour continues (or gets worse) and is later picked up on by a professional.

Edit: Rephrasing it a bit because I'm not sure I'm making sense, tbh. Basically it's that he's allowed to be "quirky" and so the behaviours remain, rather than get edged out in order to fit in and be "socially acceptable."

[–]explain_that_shit 6ポイント7ポイント  (4子コメント)

I feel like you're really trying to spin this to fit your preformed beliefs - what you claim to be fact may be true, but just remember to change theory to suit facts, not facts to suit theory.

[–]drunkenknight9 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Many with autism can't simply choose to adjust their behavior to fit in and go unnoticed. I think you're reaching for a societal structure to blame here and while there may be one this is not it.

[–]morsmordreme 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

No, definitely. You're right. Many cannot. Some, however, can. I believe there is a societal structure affecting this, though it certainly doesn't affect everyone. Poor phrasing on my part.

[–]MovieCommenter09 -1ポイント0ポイント  (10子コメント)

but what actually ends up happening is that girls change the way they interact in order to fit in and not be noticed. They are criticised for these behaviours.

Doesn't that mean social rules cure autism? Autism is just social awkwardness isn't it? If you can perceive social rules enough to adjust your behavior and fit into society...haven't you effectively been cured, or been greatly reduced on the autism spectrum to the point of normalcy?

[–]Imissmyusername 11ポイント12ポイント  (2子コメント)

Not at all. You may come off as normal but it feels like one big act. Every word or action is overthought before hand to ensure that it comes off as normal based off what you've seen of other people. When you're alone you become yourself again. People on the spectrum often get exhausted from being around people a lot and look for opportunities to get away for a break, it's easy to have a meltdown if you can't get a break from the act.

[–]MovieCommenter09 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

That's not how normal people feel? Doesn't everyone feel exhausted from putting on an act and conforming to all the odd social rules in public? Sitcoms seem to regularly joke about these things...don't they?

[–]bsbbtnh 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

We're in a culture now where we diagnose natural human behaviours and treat them, in order to be normal. We're social animals, to an extent, but being surrounded by people you don't know or trust for significant portions of your day (like school, work) has always been exhausting for certain personalities. We're instinctually built to be wary of strangers outside our trusted groups.

So now you have the "spectrum" of aspergers opening up to people who don't fit in with today's accepted social structure. That people should be treated, medicated, and put into social situations to "grow" and become "normal".

It's different from the beginnings of autism, when it was people who couldn't interact normally in a social setting. They didn't have the skills, and treatments aren't very good. But now it has opened up to people who have the skills, but don't feel natural using them.

It's not limited to aspergers, we're seeing many diagnoses opening up. Medicating is the primary solution, which is usually the wrong one for most people with "mild" symptoms. Most people just need some therapy, confidence building, cognitive therapy. But most mental health professionals are swamped, and there's so much not known about mental health, and so many studies that clash with generally accepted ideas, that there really needs to be a more cohesive national plan for mental health.

[–]morsmordreme 6ポイント7ポイント  (6子コメント)

Mm, not quite. Autism isn't just social awkwardness. Social awkwardness is social awkwardness. Autism is more than that. Social awkwardness is a characteristic of autism, however.

One of the biggest differences is that there is no "cure" for autism. You can minimize the symptoms, but cannot be "cured" per se.

I am also talking more about people with high functioning autism. The low to (sometimes) mid functioning cannot just pretend and fake it, no. Those with high functioning often, with time, can adapt to the world around them--this requires them to have ever been told that they aren't neurotypical, though. Which brings us back to the original point. :P

[–]MovieCommenter09 0ポイント1ポイント  (5子コメント)

One of the biggest differences is that there is no "cure" for autism. You can minimize the symptoms, but cannot be "cured" per se.

Then basically autistic women are just much better cared for in society than autistic men?

[–]morsmordreme 1ポイント2ポイント  (4子コメント)

A diagnosis is often the better solution. Knowing what you're facing is typically better. For example - is it better to hide your depression, not admit you have it, and never really find out what's "wrong" with you? Or is it better to know and deal with it from there?

[–]MovieCommenter09 0ポイント1ポイント  (3子コメント)

That analogy doesn't hold. There are cures for depression. The closest thing to a cure for autism is just having society accept you and socialize you as best it can instead of ignoring you.

[–]explain_that_shit 8ポイント9ポイント  (2子コメント)

Surely you mean less likely to allow that behaviour in boys, considering we spend so much time identifying, diagnosing and treating them compared to girls. If we were more likely to allow that behaviour in boys we'd care about it less, and diagnose and treat it less.

[–]himit 7ポイント8ポイント  (1子コメント)

No, the opposite. Girls are disciplined by parents for that behavior at an earlier age whereas the behavior is let slide with boys (boys will be boys and all that). The result is that girls get a kind of unprofessional early intervention and learn how to behave in most situations, so their symptoms turn inward and are hidden. Boys never learn to behave properly as they aren't taught, and then at age 8 or so it becomes terribly obvious that something's wrong and it's not just him being a boy so they take him to get evaluated.

[–]explain_that_shit 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

But then surely, the brain being still very plastic at 8 as at the age at which girls begin presenting abnormal social behaviours (say 5?), boys would have a similar intervention with similar effects etc. unless autism presented more severely in boys, or boys respond less to socialising techniques as girls in general.

[–]JarbaloJardine 10ポイント11ポイント  (6子コメント)

That seems to suggest that Aspergers isn't really a genetic problem, per se, but more a mental health issue. I can't control my cancer growth because of societal pressure. I can wait till I get home to have a full blown panic attack, however.

Not an expert, just speculating.

[–]Nixie9 28ポイント29ポイント  (3子コメント)

Not quite. Basically you can cover up lack of social awareness, it doesn't make it any less debilitating, and most late diagnosed girls have mental health issues caused by years of hiding it all.

It's kinda like how you can have a chronic pain issue, and you can lie about it, you can carry on as normal, or you can admit it, rest more, take painkillers etc, the former method will only cause things to get worse over time.

[–]himit 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

Special ed kids can all be taught and learn to a degree, which may be quite high depending on the severity of the disability. Often parents will never discipline or attempt to teach their disabled children anything, and end up accidentally encouraging bad behaviours simply because they don't think their kid could possibly learn better.

So interpreting the above:

How the 'boys will be boys' plays into that is young boys are quite frequently allowed to get away with more shit than young girls because boys 'can't help it'. With a 'light' disorder like Asperger's this means that odd behaviour is strictly punished and good behavior encouraged in girls, but in boys they just let them be until the kid's about 8-9 and they realise it might be more than just 'being a boy'. Since early intervention is pretty critical in spectrum disorders that means that girls have effectively had some form when boys haven't.

So girls have been taught how to behave properly and suffer fewer outward symptoms, until the inward gets too much and they melt down. Boys haven't been taught and continue to struggle with both aspects until they get help, which is likely to be earlier than girls because it's more obvious.

Not an expert either, but I've gathered this from cousin with Asperger's and a host of friends and family special ed/mental health occupations.

[–]defeatedbird 5ポイント6ポイント  (1子コメント)

That makes no sense.

By that reasoning, boy's behavior would be ignored.

The real answer is that society expects women to be crazy.

[–]Areleni 9ポイント10ポイント  (0子コメント)

Actually, boys that are having social problems are more likely to act out, which draws attention to the fact that they are struggling. On the other hand, girls will more likely become withdrawn. The boy getting into fits on the playground is more likely than the girl sitting quietly with a book to be recognized as having trouble

[–]treedot 5ポイント6ポイント  (7子コメント)

If someone with autism can just "change their behavior" then what makes them different from anyone else?

[–]JEesSs 35ポイント36ポイント  (5子コメント)

Everyone with a disorder does what they can do adapt to society. Some do so more or less successfully than others, but it doesn't undermine the extreme struggle they have to go through every day just to perform tasks that others would most often do effortlessly

[–]morsmordreme 9ポイント10ポイント  (1子コメント)

Yes, essentially this! If we take it further and pretend we're talking about suicidal people rather than those with autism, it becomes easier to see. Yes a suicidal person can just "change their behaviour" and not act on it, but that doesn't mean it's not still a part of them.

[–]JEesSs 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Exactly. You might think about it every day and still want to do it as much as you ever have, but you just don't. However, it doesn't mean you still aren't suffering as much as when you really planned to do it. It's also very often emotions like shame and guilt that prevent people from doing it, and I would not say that being torn between killing yourself but not wanting to let down those around you mean you are feeling better than someone who would just do it. Mental health is extremely complicated, and unfortunately behavioural inhibition is by so many considered the most reliable index of your wellbeing. It's not strange that they would, but unfortunate.

[–]kingsgrave 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Their brain chemistry and how their brain functions will never be like a "normal" person.

[–]JagAlskarDigMucho 5ポイント6ポイント  (2子コメント)

Incorrect. The more generally accepted hypothesis is pretty much this (Ripped this from another comment)

Boys are more disruptive than girls (a daydreamy introverted girl might not attract attention). Girls seem to have interests fixated on people and animals, rather than things. They seem to try and interact socially more than the boys too, even if they have the same basic difficulty of understanding social cues.

Basically, they're better at faking normality, and they're quieter in the places where they can't fake normality so it doesn't get as much attention.

Also, don't forget men are 4 times more likely to be on the spectrum. It's not as simple as what you're saying.

[–]maybe_I_am_a_bot 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

Except the whole point is that we don't know how many girls have it in contrast to boys, because it's harder to diagnose.

[–]Nonethewiserer 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

What does that idea have to do with autism???

[–]wardenrachel 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

this is really interesting. i'm taking a class right now and we discuss different disabilities and mental impairments and in the case of almost every one, boys are more often diagnosed than girls. i asked my professor about it and he couldn't tell me why. :P

[–]PartyPorpoise 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I heard it's more that girls are raised to be better socialized. Even when children are babies, people will interact with them differently based on gender. One example is that adults will talk to girls more. (this also explains why girls advance in language at an earlier age) Another is that with girls, there is much more emphasis on friendship, getting along, and cooperation. A good way to look at this is with toys, many of the toys marketed/given to girls involve social behavior of some kind. Because of all of this, girls learn more advanced social skills at an earlier age than boys do, so it's easier to pick up on things.

Another possibility is that autism symptoms, at least the ones girls experience, might be more socially acceptable for girls. Boys are expected to be rowdy to the point where people will think something is wrong if they aren't, while people might be happy about a quiet girl, even if she is a little shy.

[–]Keithious 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I have to be honest that sounds like bs.

[–]Imissmyusername 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'm a woman on the spectrum, my dad drilled normalcy into me constantly. He was strict and not only was I kept in line, I also wasn't able to do anything that he perceived as odd. I wasn't diagnosed until I was 25. It's actually better for me to pretend I'm not on it because it makes me act "normal", anxiety and shit impacts me way too much if I give myself an excuse. I've got a kid to raise, I gotta act somewhat "normal".

[–]romulusnr 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

It could be on the other hand that the traditional expectations of women were to be relatively quiet and non-outgoing (lest they meet other men that will lure them away from their husbands, etc.), so autism was indistinguishable from expected behavior.

[–]wherearethelions 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Unfortunately this is at best a wild overestimation. Firstly, the systemising behavioural patterns symptomatic of those rating higher on the autistic spectrum is dominated my males - a natural leaning away from empathogenic processes in their default mode network (resting mind state) leaves them at a significant deficit in terms of relating to salient social cues. In broader terms this relates to the fact that girls with autism, even though presenting with many of the archetypal social shortcomings and preference for systemising are still able to (even from 1 week old when female babies will preferentially choose to look at a face than a moving object) process the emotional and interpersonal information soo heavily utilised by 'society'. In even shorter terms, girls with autism are better able to pick up the nuances of peoples reactions to their behaviour and will be able to make rudimentary improvements to their social behaviour patterns which would be outside the scope of the ultra-systemising brains of most male autists. If you're interested in this:http://cogsci.bme.hu/~ivady/bscs/read/bc.pdf

[–]gmunk123 0ポイント1ポイント  (6子コメント)

I am a useless fool, but this seems a tad questionable to me. I think it may be more of a lack of studies/understanding of the condition than society allowing boys to act out more. As far as i understand autism is generally hard/impossible to self-regulate simply through force of will.

[–]dillen_dagen 6ポイント7ポイント  (1子コメント)

It's not force of will, it's scripts. Many, many scripts, and enforced rigid routines and a freeze response in place of meltdowns.

Think about how you interact with your boss in the elevator. You have a few ready to go topics that will last ten seconds and not make you look like a dick. They are the same scripts you use with everyone of your bosses. But... say you get unlucky and have the same boss in the elevator with you every time you step in there. He may start to suspect you are extra awkward penguin when he hears the same patter/responses each day, word for word. That repetition is one of the things that psychs look for when diagnosing woman, and why they usually insist on at least two meetings before dx.

Thing is, most people don't care that girls with autism are running on autopilot for all social interactions; as long as they don't say much, have OK hygiene, and keep to themselves, they pass muster.

Those scripts to pass are drilled into girls before any other education, with the same kind of drills used after an autism dx. (prompting, discrete trial training, parental led intervention, functional communication training, etc, task analysis and chaining)

I know one girl in elementary who had to drill for two months greeting people in person (acknowledgment, correct timing, that she actually had to do so, how to say "how are you"/respond with fine and return question) and on picking up the phone and politely answering it. Her parents took away her toys and forbid her from reading anything, even at school, until she finally drilled enough in it to 'pass' for normal. Social skills were prioritized until the script was learned. Now, that girl could do it after the two months, but she didn't WANT to do it, didn't understand why she should, and didn't care about the answers at all. Her motivation was getting her toys back. shrug

TDLR: Force of will? No. Intense social conditioning to meet minimum standards, while not really understanding the point/reasoning behind any of it? Yes.

[–]gmunk123 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

How is it determined that "most people don't care that girls with autism are running on autopilot"? I don't see the difference between boys and girls in your explanation here...What you have said is very well written and logical sounding but i fail to see anything that show's a difference between genders in relation to autism. What part of this would you say applies exclusively to females?

[–]garybuseysawakening 1ポイント2ポイント  (3子コメント)

It's not true. Boys and men are punished more readily and harshly at every stage. Autism is extreme systemic reasoning, usually, and girls usually have this along with other coping mechnanisms.

[–]gmunk123 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

So do you agree with Unimpresseddragon, myself, or a bit of both?

[–]garybuseysawakening 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Yourself. I am sure it's possible it could have an effect, but it's not very likely to be any more than minimal.

[–]the_salubrious_one 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I've heard the opposite. For instance, parents are more likely to shrug if their girls are tomboys, and freak out if their boys prefer dolls.

I think it just depends on what trait you're talking about. Boys have more leeway to be assholes - "boys will be boys", etc.

[–]SnarfleMonkey -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

What world do you live in? Society absolutely does not allow men or boys to behave in a way that's outside the social norm. I don't know what it's like for women but I imagine it's very similar, it's very easy to be an outcast.

[–]bufftackle 56ポイント57ポイント  (20子コメント)

Tony Attwood addresses this in his book, The Complete Guide to Asperger's Syndrome, starting on page 46-48. (Yes, the title isn't very creative, but it's addressed to an audience that likes blunt labeling, so I forgive him.)

A sample excerpt:

The clinician perceives someone who appears able to develop a reciprocal conversation and use appropriate affect and gestures during the interaction. However, further investigation and observation at school may determine that the child adopts a social role and script, basing her persona on the characteristics of someone who would be reasonably socially skilled in the situation, and using intellectual abilities rather than intuition to determine what to say or do. An example of a camouflaging strategy is to conceal confusion when playing with peers by politely declining invitations to join in until sure of what to do, so as not to make a conspicuous social error. The strategy is to wait, observe carefully, and only participate when sure what to do by imitating what the children have done previously. If the rules or nature of the game suddenly change, the child is lost. Girls with Asperger’s syndrome can develop the ability to ‘disappear’ in a large group, being on the periphery of social interaction. One woman with Asperger’s syndrome said, when recalling her childhood, that she felt as though she was ‘on the outside looking in’. There can be other strategies to avoid active participation in class proceedings, such as being well behaved and polite, thus being left alone by teachers and peers; or tactics to passively avoid cooperation and social inclusion at school and at home, as described in a condition known as Pathological Demand Avoidance (Newsom 1983).

I was diagnosed at the age of 22 and this book was a fantastic resource, which helped me see how my weird family history could be explained by autism. Grandfather George was banana-balls.

  • Taped the letter S to exit signs at his retirement home.
  • Asked for a guitar on his 75th birthday to serenade the senoritas.
  • Claimed he fathered all of the Dallas Cowboys, including Deion Sanders... We're white.
  • Attacked his family with a knife when my mom was a kid.
  • Was on horse tranquilizers for a while when psych hospitals were more like prisons.

It's a tragic story really. His mother had him and then decided that her destiny was to own an orange orchard in California. She just up and left when he was a year or two old. In the 1930s, she was described as "off" and George was described as "just like his mother" or a failure.

He's now the President of Heaven, according to some of his last "lucid" moments before he passed. I can do a whole write-up of the family story that dominoed out of that one orange crazy woman if anyone's interested.

EDIT: I'm male, but this book helped me understand my mother, so it stuck out.

EDIT2: I replied with a longer story of George on this comment.

[–]n23_ 8ポイント9ポイント  (1子コメント)

However, further investigation and observation at school may determine that the child adopts a social role and script, basing her persona on the characteristics of someone who would be reasonably socially skilled in the situation, and using intellectual abilities rather than intuition to determine what to say or do. An example of a camouflaging strategy is to conceal confusion when playing with peers by politely declining invitations to join in until sure of what to do, so as not to make a conspicuous social error. The strategy is to wait, observe carefully, and only participate when sure what to do by imitating what the children have done previously. If the rules or nature of the game suddenly change, the child is lost.

Ah look someone wrote a book about me. I still do this tbh (I'm 20), but by now I've learned most situations quite well so people usually don't even believe I have aspergers. I do still hate going into new social situations where I don't know what is expected of me and in those cases I do pretty much exactly what is described here until I figure out what to do.

[–]ishrajl 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'm 38, still do it.

You do learn a lot of skills in dealing with certain situations though. But a completely new situation with new people is still vaguely unnerving until you get the sense of the room and type check the people around to figure out their response.

I'm odd but I wouldn't say I'm autistic though.

[–]cristiline 5ポイント6ポイント  (2子コメント)

Sorry, I'm a little confused - how would autism cause something like a delusion that one had fathered an entire football team?

[–]bufftackle 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Sorry, it was a bit of a quick ramble without immediate justification.

I'll clarify those comments with more information from Tony Attwood's book in a bit. There's a later chapter that discusses what can occur when someone goes undiagnosed and untreated. While people with Aspergers (or on the Autism sepctrum) are not necessarily more violent, they can be more predisposed to developing other mental disorders, which do cause delusions and violence. George also had schizophrenia and snapped in his early 20s from what I've gathered from my family.

To the others looking for the write up, I'll have that out today.

EDIT: In Tony Attwood's book from page 341-343 he covers Asperger's and Schizophrenia in an FAQ:

One of the compensatory mechanisms for a person with Asperger’s syndrome, who may achieve limited social success and understanding, is to create a fantasy life that can include imaginary friends and imaginary worlds in which he or she is understood and socially successful. The contrast between the real and imaginary world can become quite acute during adolescence, and under extreme stress the adolescent with Asperger’s syndrome may create a fantasy world that becomes not simply a mental sanctuary and source of enjoyment, but a cause of concern to others, that the distinction between the fantasy world and reality is becoming blurred. A tendency to escape into imagination as a compensatory mechanism can then become interpreted as a delusional state of mind (LaSalle 2003).

[–]cristiline 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Very interesting! Thanks for all the extra information! I had no idea about the link to schizophrenia.

[–]bufftackle 3ポイント4ポイント  (6子コメント)

As requested:

I think it would help to understand how the pieces of information first came to me, so I’m going to tell the family history in reverse, working from me to my mother, grandfather, and great grandmother. None of this really seem to make any sense until my early to mid twenties when I finally was told a bit more of the story and shown the newspaper clippings.

I like to tell stories and write, so if you’re interested, brace for a long, thorough rundown.

TL;DR: If you think you or someone you care about has autism but doesn’t know it, please encourage them to do some research and visit a psychiatrist. If you have autism, there are a lot of resources out there to help.

Part 1:

My parents were a bit older when they decided to have children, my brother when they were 35 and me when they were 37. (Having children at a later age is linked with increased risk for autism.) My parents have described themselves as being more established, stable, and ready for children at that point in time. However, shortly after I was born, my dad began to develop a brain tumor, which wasn’t diagnosed until I was probably 5. During those years, my father slowed down in speech and function gradually to the point that he was laid off. My mom didn’t notice this as it was over the course of a few years as the tumor grew. This placed a lot of strain on her as she worked double shifts as an RN trying to make enough money to put food on the table, pay the mortgage, and maintain whatever middle class living in the 90s we had.

It’s a little funny how it was diagnosed. My mother was on the phone with her mother figure (Her mother died when she was ten. I’ll elaborate more on that later.) and mentioned “[Bufftackle’s dad] isn’t interested in sex...” In a deep southern drawl she replied, “Well honey, that ain’t right!” It was her wake up call to find out what was wrong as he only disappeared once during the week conspicuously. (It was to watch Perry Mason reruns in the secluded den, so no affair.) I also found out later that a guy friend tried to convince her to leave my dad to stay with him and take the kids. My dad may have slowed down a bit but he was still a good guy who never once laid a hand on my mother, brother and I. The balls on that guy taking advantage of the situation we were in makes me sick.

Anyways, we lost the house, declared bankruptcy, and have rented ever since. My dad got surgery and now all he needs is a shot in his ass once a month to balance his hormones with no permanent damage. My dad slowly began to re-enter the workforce but my mom had already hit a perpetual burnout stage where she would get drunk on Franzia, sleep in bed all day, and wail sporadically, especially around the fall and Christmas seasons.

As a child, this was embarrassing, odd and unexplained. I found my family members to be highly illogical and feared growing up to become like them. I went to a private school, where I learned etiquette from an early age and I could tell that I was not fitting in with my peers very well and that my family was not like other families. Neither of my parents had a consistent circle of friends and we never had people over. Each of us lived isolated lives within the house but not out of neglect. It was more like we each had different interests and didn’t feel the need to include others in it.

Communication in our house was a nightmare, especially between my parents. Imagine a drill sergeant marrying a free spirit flower child. That was my parents. (Father was a Naval military brat.) I’m convinced the only reason they got together and stayed together was because they shared a similar Asperger's stubbornness and hermit lifestyle, which no one else could tolerate. This view has been affirmed by the parents of my peers who are doctors. My father refused counselling until this past year and has denied all need for psychiatric evaluation for my family out of fear of social stigma, permanent records, and a “there’s nothing wrong with my boy/relationship” attitude.

For vacations, we could only afford to go to Austin to visit her brother and his wife, which was relatively cheap for a getaway. Here is where I met George as he was sometimes there from his assisted living home for Thanksgiving or Christmas dinners. When I first met Grandpa George, he weirded me out a bit. He had thin hair on the top of his head like Floki from Vikings, yellow teeth as he had been a chain smoker, a nasal cannula with an oxygen tank due to said smoking, a dirty polo with food stains on it, ratty loafers, and ALWAYS sweatpants. He was hunched over in a chair with flat affect on his face. He would cock his jaw like someone with tetanus, flare his fingers before clawing at his armrests, and wheeze a hissing noise like clockwork. I’m told this was a side effect of the drugs he was on. His speech always sounded groggy or dampened. The most frightening thing to me as I grew up was that I looked almost exactly like him after 15. Every now and then I see George in the mirror. This was horrifying before I was diagnosed at 22.

George was a strange mix of southern gentleman and jerk. He would call women darling and as stated above was a silly ladies man at times. However, he scratched out faces on some of my aunt’s family portraits, which put him in the dog house for a while. When we visited, he would always ask for my mom to buy him: pickles, anchovies, and ice cream. All he did was sit in his chair and watch football when we visited him at his home. My brother and I always loathed visiting him, not necessarily because of him but his affect on my mother. She would always break down and sob for the few hour ride home, sometimes persisting for days.

My mother eventually tried to commit suicide when I was 13, 15, 18, and 19. She’s still alive and my dad has stuck with her as "She's the only person he can't live without" ~2011. However, our relationship is strained as I was used as her emotional tampon due to a lack of friendship with my father if you’ll excuse the gross analogy. I hope she lives a happy life but far away from me.

Alright. Here’s where the story becomes more linear as I found out a few more details when I got older.

My mother and uncle grew up in an orphanage after their mother died and George was in an insane asylum. She always referred to it as the Methodist Home. It didn’t quite click as “orphanage” until I was in my twenties as I had just learned to tune out my mother's trips down memory lane.

I had always heard that my grandmother choked and died. This was partially true.

When my mother was 10, grandma was going back to college as George was dysfunctional. He would chain smoke in the house, walk around in his underwear, beat his wife, and say things like “The Jews next door can see through our walls because they stare at diamonds in their jewelry store all day!”

One day, my mother and uncle walked into the kitchen to see George straddling Grandma with a knife to her throat. She simply said, “George, not in front of the children.” This distracted or froze him long enough for grandma to get up and run out the door with the kids following. George shortly ran outside with the knife in hand, stopped to look at himself, realized he wasn’t wearing pants, and went back inside only to run back outside with pants on wielding a chair over his head this time. Grandma had gone across the street with the kids and locked themselves in with their neighbors to call the police. George was detained and sent to the insane asylum.

Grandma continued to go to college and have the kids on the weekends while my mother and uncle lived with my great grandfather (Grandma’s dad) in the back of one of those 1950s style soda fountain pharmacies during the weekdays. Grandma’s side of the family was relatively well known in the small Texas town with a fair standing in the community. Grandma took out a life insurance policy after the event in the kitchen to provide for her children should anything happen to her.

One night after grandma came home from studying, my mother said that she was hungry. Grandma drove to the store and never came home. She was found in a ditch outside the town with her face beaten in, strangulation marks on her neck, her underwear dragged down to her ankles and track marks on her body from a car running her over. The first person the police suspected was George but he was under lock and key at the asylum. He couldn’t have done it. She was last seen at the store by a neighbor, whom also saw another well known troubled individual in the town. My mom described him as another neighbor's creepy shut in brother with known mental issues. All evidence pointed to him but his family put up a pay-me-to-win-not-for-truth sleazy lawyer and no one was ever apprehended. This was the incident that caused the small town to end their open door policy for children playing outside. When we went to visit the town once as kids (~30 years post incident), the custodian of the church one of my relatives founded told my mother the town's never been the same since.

My mother blames herself for her mother’s death. The kids were sent to the orphanage and my grandma's best friend stepped in as her substitute mother figure over the years. They were poor too and couldn't take in the two but were a boon to our family for years to come.

EDIT: Fixed a link to Floki.

[–]bufftackle 2ポイント3ポイント  (5子コメント)

Part 2:

After the incident, the insurance money was placed in the trust of my great grandfather (Grandma's dad) who eventually developed Alzheimer's. His caretaker was one of his daughters, my mother’s aunt. She was bitter towards the “favoritism” shown to my grandmother and slowly withdrew all of the insurance money for herself over the course of a few years. Yes, the evil aunt stole from orphans. She couldn’t recognize her own kids eventually as she got Alzheimer's herself but George could recognize hers till the day he died. Vengeance is mine sayeth the Lord. My dad was dating my mom when this became public but she decided not to press charges. Dad says he "would have sent her to jail but your uncle and mother were too sentimental."

Ok, so that sort of explains mom’s depression. Now, why was George the way he was?

As I stated above, George was born from the marriage of Orange-Lady and my other great grandfather, who was a doctor. After she left, my great grandfather remarried. George grew up in the 30s and 40s, hearing the constant droning of how the members of his family have been the doctors of this community for generations. He was to be the 4th doctor in the family line but his father didn’t believe he could live up to this task as he was too much like his mother. George got into Southwestern University, where he met grandma, also a pre-med student. She dropped out to live vicariously through him as a doctor's wife. It was more socially acceptable for men to be doctors, which is messed up, but it is what it is. He didn’t get into medical school and the weight of breaking family tradition caused him to snap. The step by step details are unclear to me on the exact spiral he went through from pre-med student who was a track-star and bookworm constantly in the library for fun to underwear anti-semitic, but that one failure drove him mad. His father also had a secret family we later discovered. We randomly got a 1922 medical school ring from the illegitimate family that tracked us down. They felt guilty for having it. The rings back then were much cooler. Texas crest like normal on the face. Year on one side and a Jolly Roger on the other. I've got a picture somewhere.

I learned this all when I was going through a early life crisis of my own, where I realized I always wanted to be a doctor during my senior year of college but my mother had beaten it out of my hands with guilt and fear over the years. It was a strange year and I'm now in a post-bacc program.

However, it all started with one woman marrying into the family for about a year and then peacing out to California to run an orange orchard. I promised I’d get us here. Thanks for reading this far if you have.

EDIT: a word.

[–]banditkoala 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

Thanks for delivering! That was one hell of a ride. You write magnificently

[–]bufftackle 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Thank you.

I've always been told that I had a gift for story-telling, but I don't think it can put bread on the table unless you're very successful. I currently write as a side hobby but am open to writing more professionally in the future. My hope has been that medicine will open doors to more interactions with others which can provide a broader depth for creative withdrawal. I currently volunteer 8 hours per week in hospitals and I learn so much more about humanity from the patients than I do the doctors.

[–]KashmirKnitter 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

Wow. This would make an incredible novel. Thanks for sharing your story, I wish you all the best in school and in the future!

[–]bufftackle 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

Thank you for reading.

It's a bit weird to tell the story in person because it goes against most common perceptions or life stories portrayed in mainstream media. People tend to look at me and say what the hell was that? Life is stranger than fiction. I'm interested in writing in the future, so I may try to novelize the story in a similar vein to CS Lewis' Surprised By Joy.

I'll probably apply to medical school next year. Thanks for the encouragement. Best wishes to your endeavors as well.

[–]Stigmata_tears 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

As an outside internet stranger, that's sounds beautifully tragic. I acknowledge that I probably can't grasp an iota of what life was really like for your family. I hope you found some comfort

[–]bufftackle 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

It's difficult to comprehend at times. I've just learned to let go of it or be able to sit with it when it won't leave my mind.

One thing that I don't believe, which probably isn't going to be very popular on reddit, is that "all people are good" or "we all really want the same things out of life" hive mind. It's a weak dismissal of suffering and is akin to sticking one's head in the sand.

In the words of Forrest Gump, "Shit Happens."

https://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/4egt3z/what_are_lesser_known_biological_differences/d21t8qo

[–]budlejari 195ポイント196ポイント  (47子コメント)

Because we, as women, are socialised from a very young age to learn social rules. We have to. Girls are expected to know how to read subtle cues and do a lot of emotional labour right from the youngest age - think about it. Boys toys are sold as cars and action things. Girls have dolls and toy kitchens and are more of a 'nurturing' toy set, or a 'domestic' lot. As a girl with Autism, you learn to copy that. By rote, if necessary. And you learn the fucking hard way. Because as a child, nobody cares if you don't get the emotional thing, but the older you get the more you need it. As a teenager, girls are expected to outstrip boys in terms of understanding social cues, so girls with autism learn it the hard way. They have to fake it until they make it, or at least until it feels less awkward.

Boys are allowed to be awkward or weird. It's not cool to be like that but it's also not expected of them to be the socially adept ones. Girls are. It's life and fucking death to a teenage girl. You gotta be on that ball or you get mocked and shamed for it.

A big part of what girls get is the message to 'fit in' and to 'work together' and 'play nicely'. With autism, many girls take these rules to heart and learn to mimic to get by because teachers and society unconsciously encourages women to keep to that role of social mediator, and to be good at conversation and socialising.

[–]Shiva- 48ポイント49ポイント  (7子コメント)

Yup, growing up I had a really good friend who was an Aspie. I didn't even know she was an Aspie until almost 10 years later.

She basically did exactly that. She was smart enough to mimic/fake it. For her, she was literally acting/pretending to be a girl.

It also explains why I liked her a lot for a long time. She was always so analytical (and I always thought she was one of the smartest people I knew, I admired the hell out of her).

It was kind of neat. She was really smart and even though I found her intimidating, it never really bothered her that I was the dumb kid asking her a lot of questions about things I didn't really understand.

Honestly, I didn't even know she was an Aspie until we started talking about a mutual friend of ours. This mutual friend was a guy who a lot of us found really annoying -- I was usually nice to him, in fact I was probably one of the few people who was nice to him, but sometimes I admit I was more tolerating him than anything (really, it depended). He was never malicious and I recognized that, so on most days it wasn't an issue. But sometimes it was.

I actually picked up he was really pedantic and he wasn't doing it to be annoying. And sort of once I learned to deal with him it wasn't really an issue. I guess, earlier on I was just annoyed because he was a bit overly pedantic/literal and I assumed he was being an asshole, when he really wasn't.

One day I asked her why she's such good friends with him. And that was when she told me. I completely didn't believe her. Like I knew she was a strange one (and part of what I admired so much). She was always the girl with all the guys. She was very much "one of the guys"; she was in to sports both real and fantasy; she was in a male-dominated profession.

She told me how she was just really good at hiding it. And went on to explain how she also has a lot of common "flaws" (for lack of a better word) associated with Aspies. Like she's clumsy and can lose her sense of balance frequently. But she learned how to deal with it. Learned how to slow down sometimes to not be as clumsy. Learned how to act around females. Learned how to "pretend" to be female.

And I suddenly just realized I wrote a freaking essay on a friend to a stranger who probably doesn't care. So. I think I'll stop.

[–]Gripey 4ポイント5ポイント  (2子コメント)

What you are saying is autistic people can make great friends, if you are not an arsehole yourself. I guess they are just people. (source: my best friend is clearly autistic...). It probably is not even an illness, more of a difference, but that is not a popular view at this time.

[–]Shiva- 4ポイント5ポイント  (1子コメント)

Oh I agree. It's weird. After talking with her, I realized how I can pickup on some other people being Autistic as well.

I have another friend who is clearly autistic as well. For a long time, the subject never came up, but I suspected it. One day she told she was pissed at her mom because her mom kept it a secret from her (she was apparently diagnosed with autism at a very young age, but no one "told" her). I told her I always knew and suspected it. She was somewhat shocked.

But yeah, in my experience, once you can learn how to interact with them, they're pretty awesome. In my experience, the whole pedantic/literal thing is the big one. We often lose that when we're talking with others. We might make jokes or sarcastic comments that a lot of autistic types (I can't speak for all, I know it's a spectrum) don't get.

But once you're conscious of the differences, they really aren't that different at all.

[–]Gripey 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

I should add, if an autistic person is also an arsehole, they can get a whole other level of arseholery. Not my friend, who is more of a rescuer, but my brother in law, who is obviously on the spectrum, but blackmails and bullies everyone around him, and then feels that the family "do not appreciate all that he does" which is nothing productive for anyone, ever. I believe he has had one job, straight out of college with his phd, and that was the last time he worked in the last 30 years. because everyone else is stupid. (apparently).

[–]ae-keji 94ポイント95ポイント  (1子コメント)

Girls are taught to be perfectionists while boys are taught to be risk takers.

[–]explain_that_shit 23ポイント24ポイント  (0子コメント)

Just on a general note about girls feeling the pressure to be socialised more than boys, there was a really interesting twin/adoption study a couple of years back that showed that boys are more likely to have a similar level of intelligence to their birth parents regardless of who is raising them, while girls are more likely to have a similar level of intelligence to the parents who are raising them.

That speaks to me of a more innate response to socialisation in girls than in boys, rather than more social pressure being put on girls than boys - as parents will socially pressure their children equally (and at the very least in terms of intelligence - the only argument against that, that parents have lower expectations of intelligence from their daughters than their sons, would suggest that boys are MORE socially pressured, which I'm not going to argue).

[–]Miniappolis 18ポイント19ポイント  (0子コメント)

You're gonna get so much controversy for saying that, but it does make sense.

[–]kingsgrave 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Literally everyone on autism is forced to fit in because that's how humans work.

[–]ibtrippindoe 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Actually, these differences are much more innate than the social sciences have caught on to as of yet. Simon Baron Cohen is a leading researcher in developmental psychology, autism, and the male and female brain at Cambrige. In the article I linked, he talks about the male and female brain, and how the female brain is better at empathizing, while the male brain is better at systematizing.

Essentially, autism is the result of a hyper masculine brain, which is incredibly good at systemitizing, but not at empathizing. This has been linked to high levels of pre-natal testosterone.

Anyway, you should read the article, Dr. Cohen is much better at explaining it than I am, as it's not my field of study. The socialization theory you're talking about is not backed up by evidence, and fails to account for innate sex differences. While everybody agrees culture influences people drastically, the blank slate sort of interpretation your presenting is largely debunked.

[–]budlejari 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I wasn't saying that autism is caused by socialisation - I know that autistic brains literally are different, down to brain chemistry, rather than how your mother spoke to you as a baby.

I was saying what it is like as a girl who is in a society where we treat boys and girls with autism (and without, actually), very differently.

[–]bobje99 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

I really wish this is bullshit, but apparently it's not.

[–]budlejari 4ポイント5ポイント  (1子コメント)

There's a ton of differences in the brain, on a chemical, processing level, as well as in psychological thought processing and behavioural understanding, but it's always important to remember how very differently girls and boys are encouraged to behave socially. You know, the classic girls can cry and express all kinds of emotions, boys are encouraged to be tough and manly and repress all that.

[–]bobje99 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

yeah I hate how difficult this is to measure exactly. The difference in how girls vs boys are teached to behave also causes a lot of the differences in how the brain functions.

[–]MovieCommenter09 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

Autism should mean you can't perceive social cues... so I don't get how just increasing the rigor of socialization cures autism exactly?

[–]budlejari 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

It doesn't cure autism and I didn't suggest it does. When girls learn the rules like this with autism, it's like rote learning, over and over again. Mimic until you make it to a point where you can kind of manage, just about get by, you don't look that creepy or weird, people will let you alone.

[–]MovieCommenter09 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

That's all anyone with autism can hope to do though...

[–]persephonethedamned 50ポイント51ポイント  (0子コメント)

Maybe the "boys will be boys" attitude growing up. Autistic boys can get away with odd social behavior more often whereas women are expected to look and act certain ways and have a lot more pressure from society to do so. So one is told what they do is fine, and the other is drilled by the standards all women are forced to uphold for appearance.

[–]psylent 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Probably because grown women who enjoy My Little Pony aren't seen as too weird and different.

[–]eissirk 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

It just seems like they're being aloof.

[–]Better_Bit 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

What I read was that girls with autism is more likely to have an older woman who mentors them on social skills, whereas men tend to be more distant. Also social skills are emphasized in women.

[–]Shiva- 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Taking a guess here, but it's probably related to how society expects women vs. men to act.

Like, did you know one of the signs of a "gifted" boy (in say Elementary school) is to look for a boy who acts like a girl? Now, how do you go about looking for a girl that acts like a girl? Oh. Wait. Anyways, as a result, it's much easier to identify gifted males at a younger age than gifted females.

[–]l_dont_even_reddit 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Because we just have to love them, not understand them.

[–]scallred 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Because they talk to other people outside of 4chan.

[–]pizza-drop 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Also a lot of autistic (especially Aspergers) girls tend to be seen as "quirky" while they're younger, and by the time they're older, they've usually started picking up how to act in a social setting enough to fit in more.

[–]duraiden 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

No one knows.

There are some hypothesis about why it may be the case though, such as conditioning, sex differences in brain chemistry, genetics, etc.

[–]sourlemonmoon 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Socialisation, probably. Female children tend to be socialised to value the feelings and reactions of others, whereas male children get "boys will be boys" and are told to hide their emotions and be tough, etc. Female children in general are more socially competent than male children for probably this reason, so it's not that surprising that this would also be true of female children with ASD.

[–]Daktush 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

From a Darwinian perspective the biggest danger to a man is being weak and dying because of it, the biggest danger to a woman is social exclusion

[–]AliceDiableaux 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Because the part in the brain responsible for social interaction is bigger in women's brains then in men's. So this means that as far as social skills go it's neurotypical women > neurotypical men = women on the spectrum > men on the spectrum. So the social aspect, the part that actually shows, in contrast to other things associated with autism like sensory processing issues and routine, are compensated for by neurobiology. (I'm of course talking about high-functioning people on the spectrum here, this doesn't go for more severe cases)

[–]NosyEnthusiast6 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

because less of them use the internet

[–]bobthrowawaybob 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I've read that when women do have autism, they tend to have the severe and low-functioning kind. For whatever reason it is much rarer for them to get the Aspergers, high functioning type of autism. As a result the autistic girls are not really present in 'normal' society, making it seem like they are even rarer than they actually are.

[–]JooJoona -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

ITT: why women are still the victims even when they suffer less from autism. sigh

[–]Pathfinderer 14ポイント15ポイント  (0子コメント)

my brother suspects I might have aspergers. it would explain why I never had friends until high school. Of course I might just be extremely socially awkward.

[–]Kimbobbins 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

Masking it doesn't make it any easier to live with though

[–]eric22vhs 6ポイント7ポイント  (1子コメント)

Is this a difference in genes though, or more related to gender roles and expectations?

[–]UberNooga 11ポイント12ポイント  (0子コメント)

Gender roles. 100% gender roles. I'm a woman with Asperger's - this does not apply to me at all. I wasn't exactly raised to fulfill those gender roles, Mum just raised me in a more academic-minded and polite manner, rather than being feminine.

Kinda worked against me though. As much as I loved "boy" things, I grew up with very few friends - those I have are mostly autistic/aspergers or at least give me that impression.

TL;DR: Gender roles, not genes

[–]ExplorerLongstrider 10ポイント11ポイント  (1子コメント)

My 23 y/o girlfriend was recently told by here doctor she might have Aspergers and I would have never guessed it. She gets emotional over small things sometimes and can be OCD about scheduling but she also did a full year of nursing school before transferring to an intense microbiology program. She also excellent with financing where my skills are somewhat lacking xD

Anyone else have a similar experience?

[–]UberNooga 13ポイント14ポイント  (0子コメント)

Not experience but remember that autism/asperger's does not equal retardation. Asperger's sometimes have savant tendencies - financing might be her "thing" so to speak. The "OCD" thing is that Asperger's folks love structure, makes everything easier for us. Emotional over small things could just be a personality quirk. I do it too but it isn't necessarily an autism thing.

It's a complex disorder though so I'm no judge when it comes to such little detail. Not to mention it's like a parallel psychology anyway. Doesn't sound like severe aspergers if she does have it though. I flew under the radar for a while on mine until we went to some lectures (sister had really obvious Asperger's)

Sauce: Have been diagnosed with Asperger's

[–]darkenedgy 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

I also read a bit on how it presents differently in girls—some of those "obsessive fangirls" may in fact be on the ASD. That said, female brains are better protected against the more severe symptoms of ASD (as well as schizophrenia), and apparently more susceptible to anxiety/depressive type disorders.

[–]sassyassburgers 9ポイント10ポイント  (0子コメント)

Ah. So that's why. I just thought I "grew" out of it.

[–]Vigilante17 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Why don't I like cheese, but I like pizza?

[–]AjBlue7 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

I feel like part of the reason is that women have lots of time to learn how to be social despite their natural desires. Where men are discouraged from showing emotions, so it's more logical for them to just embrace their biological fear and avoid social contact as much as possible. Eventually they get to a point where lack of practice, is a large reason why they have trouble socially. Hell most children are very awkward socially. There's that saying about how children always know what to say to make fun of whatever you are insecure about.

[–]shinyglittersparkles 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Being a woman with autism can suck donkey dick. Hugs

[–]AmethystFae 2ポイント3ポイント  (5子コメント)

Been seeking a diagnosis for a long time. Autism was actually suggested to me by a nursing preceptor I had. I wound up having to drop out, but regardless it explains almost all the difficulties I've had in social settings, schooling, and at various jobs. I'm worried if I ever do find a GP that my suspicion won't be taken seriously because I'm a woman.

There was a study out there that showed that people with autism spectrum disorders had a 25 year shorter lifespan. Mostly due to suicide. I don't find that hard to believe.

[–]UberNooga 2ポイント3ポイント  (4子コメント)

Trust me, if you're after diagnosis you should be seeking an autism specialist. Not being taken seriously on the grounds of gender is super unprofessional and if you're seeing a specialist that should never, ever happen.

[–]AmethystFae 2ポイント3ポイント  (3子コメント)

If I lived in a city with that kind of access, I absolutely would.

[–]UberNooga 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

Oh god that's the worst isn't it? Thankfully my family had contacts so I could have the required IQ test done at school and sent to the specialist, but I'm presuming you're American and an adult, so I don't know how that would work.

Dunno if this helps but I did a Google search.

https://www.google.com.au/search?q=us+autism+specialist&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&gws_rd=cr&ei=H9INV73WFIem0ATd7pbYCg

Depending on distances you might need to do a road trip to get diagnosed :( Sorry pal

[–]AmethystFae 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

I'm Canadian actually, and I live in a pretty rural area. :/ I do remember having an IQ test done when I was in primary school, and them wanting to move me up several grades but that being stopped because I was being bullied so bad and had issues with motor skills. I don't know if my mum still has those records. What kinds of records did your doctor need?

[–]UberNooga 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I just needed the IQ test. Then again, mum did already have a conversation with the specialist about me/my personality/tendencies etc. You'll probably need that interview-style thing too, but that would likely come with an appointment.

But given the stuff with motor skills and the bullying, which would usually result from social difference, I'd definitely mention that. If you have a GP you could see if you could get a referral, but I'm no expert sadly.

Best of luck in getting your diagnosis :)

[–]We_Are_Not_Equal 4ポイント5ポイント  (2子コメント)

Isn't the point of autism that you can't "mask your difficulties" or fit in, or have social skills in general? Is this saying that girls with autism don't actually have social skills, they're just good at pretending to have social skills? I'm not sure if there's a difference...

[–]louiseifer 14ポイント15ポイント  (0子コメント)

Imagine you're born in a world where everyone can dance. Everyone is naturally amazing at it. The music comes on and their bodies are in tune with it, they can make up new moves on the fly and impress people with them, they can bust a move without thinking twice about it. Everyone is a natural dancer, and you make friends by dancing with people.

You, though? Two left feet. You try, because your parents make you dance. Why wouldn't they? Everyone dances. No matter how much you try, you're just not in tune with the music, you can't pull awesome moves out of your hat, and you don't know what's expected of you when dancing in a group. You're desperate to fit in and be normal and make people like you, so you watch other people dance and do what they do. Over time, with repetition, you get good at those moves. When you meet new people you watch them and copy them. Sometimes you can drop in a move you learned before and impress people. But you're going through the motions, you're concentrating the whole time so as not to fall on your arse, and you know you'll never instinctively feel the music like everyone else does. You're just not a natural dancer - but, with practice, you can do some dance moves and maybe even you're co-ordinated enough that your practiced skills pass as innate skills.

All that practicing you have to do in order to fit in - well, it's exhausting. You don't understand why dancing is such a big deal and you don't really understand why this type of dance goes with that type of music - you just know that it does because you've watched enough people to figure that out. You wish you could find someone who shares your all-consuming interest in badminton instead. You wish people could just interact without all these elaborate rituals. And, no matter how hard you practice, your mis-steps are frequent and construed by others to be obnoxious attention-grabbing or plain idiocy. Whatever you do, you can't win until you're able to explain to someone that you're not a dancer and have them accept you for who you are.

Girls in this world are dismissed/praised as just shy when someone notices they aren't on the dancefloor. No one believes it when they try to explain they aren't dancers. All girls dance, why must you be so difficult? So you put your damn ballet shoes on and you get on with it. You fall on your arse a lot and people laugh at you, but your friends and family assume you do it for attention, or you're off-balance due to hormones. You're not. You just aren't a dancer. But you dance anyway, because that's what everyone does.

[–]n23_ 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I have aspergers, though I am a guy, but you can definitely mask your difficulties. You can just learn what behaviour is OK and what behaviour is not in a situation, where other people know that automatically. This also means that if you get in a new situation that you have not yet 'learned' that you don't really know how to act, which is the main difference you weren't so sure about ;)

[–]GaryBettmanSucks 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

Can't even begin to tell you the reasons why this is inaccurate and borderline negligent to preach as fact.

[–]ZeeBeeDoop 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Duly noted, I have edited my original post to include my opinion on the matter.

[–]iwillcorrectyou 4ポイント5ポイント  (1子コメント)

I have a female friend with Aspergers and a brother and male cousin with it too. The differences between male and female are mind boggling.

[–]Ue-MistakeNot 23ポイント24ポイント  (0子コメント)

That is annecdotal though. With a sample size of three it's a bit hard to draw conclusions when your female friend might have a milder case of it than the two men you know with it.

[–]Rivka333 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Female with Aspergers here :)

[–]mayoto_k 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

There was a great article in Scientific Mind a few months ago on how there's a gender difference in how autism presents itself. Many autistic girls are misdiagnosed because their symptoms are masked by other disorders. A big one they talk about is eating disorders.

Girls are also much better at hiding their obsessions and tendencies. One example was that typical girls will play out a fantasy in their mind, or narrate a story involving themselves when they play with their dolls. On the other hand, when some autistic girls play with dolls in a similar fashion, they're actually recreating static tableaus instead of imagining themselves in the doll play.

They also describe autistic girls to more resemble boys their age than autistic boys their age.

[–]UberNooga 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Female with Asperger's here. That is complete and utter bullshit. If you're looking for a real difference, it's that girls with Asperger's are more like normal boys than boys with Asperger's are. But reading through the other posts, the folks going on about conditioning may have a point. Nature vs. Nurture stuff I suppose, but that isn't a biological thing.

[–]cantxtouchxthis 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Can confirm

Source: I am the mother of a little girl with autism. Identifying early symptoms was infuriating as she presented differently than anything I had ever read about autism.

[–]KrysxKatastrophe 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Huh. I have aspergers and people tell me all the time they can't really tell, but I feel like it's painfully obvious. Maybe I'm just good at masking and didn't know.

[–]PieScout 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I think i have autism then...

[–]Keithious 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

If you can mask it, then in what way do you really have autism? Isn't everyone masking socially unacceptable behaviour all the time? The point of autism is that you are unable to behave normally.

[–]clumsygirllovescats 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Same goes for most spectrum disorders. For example ADHD.

[–]Reddisaurusrekts 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Considering that a main issue with autism sufferers is inability to develop social skills... does this mean that women are just able to 'deal' with autism better?

[–]superawesomepandacat 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Explains why there are only males on 4chan.

[–]hoorah9011 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

That's completely and utterly false. Has nothing to do with "masking."