(cache) Democratic-Libertarian Coalition Announced : MCNN

I am a member of the Libertarian Party, the current Secretary of Labor, and am also running for the Libertarian nomination for the Upper Midwest congressional seat. I would like to say that I do condemn this coalition, and the leaders of the Libertarian Party, for selling out like this. Seats mean nothing when the party you are running with is polar opposite of you on certain issues. Not one economic bill that's aim is for less intervention in the economy will be passed if it reaches a Democratic presidents desk, including a bill I would propose day one if elected to office, the "Audit and End the Federal Reserve Act of 2016". Us as Libertarians need to stand up against the establishment of our party. Our principals are not something we should throw away for more seat, we should stay true to our values, which would be easier to put out staying loyal to the Sunrise Coalition than aligning with the Dems on anything.

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Hear, hear! This is a great bill! Alright, this is where you've pissed me off. You should be disturbed by how militant and grossly twisted your perception of "social freedom" is. Guess what buddy? Gay "marriage" hurts people. People have lost their livelihoods to gay marriage, have been sued for not participating in them. Children are forced to be adopted, and raised by them, despite their right to a mother and father. I would like to now interject with meaningful discussion. I think that DIDICET, please stop insulting me and my other party members. It's kind of annoying to have you bitching at us 24/7. Nice ad hominem, dumbass You let your little bitch PARTIALLY KRITKAL do whatever he wants, terrorizing, bullying, snitching, trolling, nice ad hominem dumbass, for months and now you crack down on us? Hear, hear! And then you claim to care so much and you claim to listen to our feedback? Fuck off guys gives all of you balls, but in a fucking government simulation you'll bow down like bitches FUCKING STOP IT YOU SHITHEAD. I AM DONE WITH THIS I HAVE MY LIFE RUINED! FUCK OFF SOLOMON RUINED! YOU FUCKING TRACKED DOWN AND STALKED MY WIFE, YOU DRAGGED HER INTO MY PROBLEMS. SHE WORRIES ABOUT ME ALL THE NICE HOMINEM DUMBASS TIME BECAUSE IM SO FUCKING DEPRESSED AND DESTROYED FORM THIS SHIT. THIS ISNT HEALTHY!!!!

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[–]NateLooneyChairman | Clerk Triumvir | Former Congressman/S.o.S. 3ポイント4ポイント5ポイント 3日前 (109子コメント)

I have no idea what you mean by that. I stick with my party platform, and I have certainly never lied— I may have been deceitful in tactics, but that is not lying, it is strategy.

These cliche phrases only hide the truth of the matter, and that was The Libertarians were discontent with Sunrise so we left. Your party leadership knew that a ~ a month or two ago.

So to say that we lied? No.

In fact, we were constantly HARASSED by Sunrise members asking us if we were running an independent Presidential campaign. Which. We. Arent. Oh look, I am not lying.

Utterly pathetic when the Right Wing has to constantly harass my members when we even requested that they stop.

It shows how much you had trusted us from the get-go.
So lets talk about how the Right Wing never wanted us to run anywhere but Central. They gave us 1 district in the East. When I raised concerns about that, I was given: The Civic Party has to run East, plus they have all of your active members.

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Well I guess if your goal is to try to throw as much libertarian legislation into the Democratic paper shredder as possible, mission accomplished.

Well if they are no better, than I see no reason as to why everyone is making a fit.

People are making a fit because they're worse. Rather than fight for what you believe in, you sought the easiest way out and lied directly to the faces of myself, /u/ncontas, /u/TurkandJD, /u/Ed_San, and others in order to just get more seats and throw your party platform out the window to coalition with a party consisting predominantly of followers of Bernie Sanders, who has to be basically the antithesis of most of your membership. I think we all expected and hoped for better from you, a person that we thought warranted our trust and respect. Obviously those sentiments were misplaced.

As somebody who has worked closely with you within and without the Libertarian Party for the last year plus, I've always viewed you as somebody who wasn't afraid to put up a fight when the going got tough like it did at the midterms. We ran the party together officially for 3-4 months and unofficially for even longer before that when Smitty was serving as a lame duck Vice Chairman and you and I got everything done together. We put the party back together after Smitty nuked the party sub and a certain Progressive Green tried to usurp the party throne by cheating and using illicit methods to falsely mass PM unsuspecting members of the party that we were tyrants and monsters trying to "boil our members like frogs".

Did negotiations between us and you and the GOP get heated at times? Of course. I'm not going to deny that there was definitely a point at which you probably felt you were being treated unfairly. But you've been conveniently leaving out the part of the negotiations that came AFTER when we actually agreed upon a concrete deal that included many concessions to your party and could easily have included more after cooler heads prevailed. Your misrepresentation of what occurred in those talks is really not indicative of events, unless at that point you had already decided to leave the coalition, in which case everything you said to us at that point was a barefaced lie.

All of this is to say, basically, that I'm disappointed in you. I considered us partners and friends for a very long time and I'm sad to see that that's not true. Despite our differences after the defection of the Civic Party (which you very nearly joined, if you recall), I was always willing to play ball with the Libertarians in order to support our common ground on issues and create the best situation possible for all of our members. Many of your members are still people I respect and admire immensely having worked with them for a long time prior to my ignominious exit from the party. Unfortunately it seems that the same respect was not afforded for us that chose to leave, nor for the people in the GOP and Distributists that would have given up almost whatever you needed them to in order to keep your support. You never gave them a chance.

Good luck with the Democrats I guess. Your membership deserves better.

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[–]jimmymisner9Libertarian 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 2日前 (3子コメント)

Why shouldn't politicians have more say over monetary policy? Are Nobel laureate economists the only people capable of it? Not to mention, the will of the people is usurped when discretionary monetary policy distorts the economy and robs people of their savings. The federal reserve should not be controlled by an oligarchist model. Further, I'm very disappointed in how fiscally un-conservative the GOP has become. I regard this coalition deal as more of a response by the libertarians to the betrayal by the GOP of fiscally conservative values. Not to mention, 3 days out of 5 the Democrats are more in favor of free markets than the GOP anyway, while the GOP continues to support the culture of corporatism that is so common in politics now. I understand your view on audit the fed, and I respect it, but I will not and cannot agree. Myself and many of my friends in the libertarians feel that our closest ideological neighbors are now the democrats instead of the republicans due to the increased statism in all aspects of republican policy.

[–]LegatusBlackChairman of the Federal Reserve Bank 2ポイント3ポイント4ポイント 2日前 (2子コメント)

Why shouldn't politicians have more say over monetary policy? Are Nobel laureate economists the only people capable of it?

Yes, of course! According to a famous empirical study by the NBER, monetary policy relegated to political bodies has always yielded long-term results inferior to those of independent monetary policy-making bodies. This is because politicians and, in general, normal people are shortsighted. In the sphere of inflationary policy, for example, the Federal Reserve's independence allows it to make the long-term decisions that are unpopular in the short-term, but ultimately pivotal in the long-term defense of American economic supremacy and monetary stability, insulating it from heavy political pressure to be overly expansionary - which would be popular for 2-5 years as unemployment reaches 2%, but extremely unpopular after ~5 years because suddenly - unemployment reaches 40% and the value of the dollar is pegged at 12% of it's value before expansionary policy was implemented, all because we've exceeded the underlying potential of the economy. This has happened over and over again in the United States (crack open a history book and read under 1890s-1910s, or attempts to maintain the value of War Bonds after 1940) and around the world.

Not to mention, the will of the people is usurped when discretionary monetary policy distorts the economy and robs people of their savings.

Monetary Policy is not at all discretionary, you clearly know nothing about it. Federal Reserve Board members read more numbers and analyze more statistics in a day than you've seen in your entire life, and decisions made in the FRB take months to come to and implement, which is still much quicker and more effective than politicians could ever hope to imagine. After the 2008 crisis, Politicians rallied for monetary policy so expansionary that they couldn't see the deflationary spirals right before their eyes, that's because politicians do not have the expertise or the ability to understand and compress large swaths of statistical information with proper precision and sufficient care. Distorting monetary policy? Hahahahahaha!!!! The Federal Reserve is what KEEPS MONETARY POLICY FROM BEING DISTORTED! Are you kidding? The POINT of a Central Bank is to keep monetary policy stable and reliable in the Long-Term and not overly expansionary or (God forbid) under-/un-managed!

Further, I'm very disappointed in how fiscally un-conservative the GOP has become.

Citation? How has the GOP become fiscally "un-conservative'(sic.) (I think you mean Liberal).

Not to mention, 3 days out of 5 the Democrats are more in favor of free markets than the GOP anyway, while the GOP continues to support the culture of corporatism that is so common in politics now.

Citation? Citation? Do you know what Corporatism is? It is a predominantly fascist (and sometimes communist) idea that involves turning groups in society into singular bodies that work collectively.

I understand your view on audit the fed, and I respect it, but I will not and cannot agree.

That's why politicians will never control the Federal Reserve.

[–]sugdnCivic Party 2ポイント3ポイント4ポイント 2日前 (0子コメント)

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[–]Beane666Libertarian 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 2日前 (3子コメント)

What once independent body? The Fed?

The Fed was created by the Federal Reserve act of 1913. Until the 1930, the Treasury Secretary served on the Federal Reserve Board.

The Fed is the fiscal agent of the federal government. The more U.S. debt the Fed holds, the more it enables deficit spending.

Congress was the body that gave The Fed it's dual mandate.

The seven members of the Board of Governors are appointed by the President and confirmed by the Senate

Also, you can read detailed reports regarding the meddling Congress and POTUS have done with The Fed.

The Fed isn't any independent body I've ever heard of. Not even close. As far as whims of congress are concerned, don't take my word for it:

So I’m not overly optimistic about what congressional control can do. However, it would be better than what we have now. As you can see, I am not in favor of the independence of the Federal Reserve. This is a democracy. And I believe that money is too important to leave to [a] central bank, that it is intolerable that a group of nonelected people should have the power to create a major inflation or a major recession. Entirely aside from the economic effects I believe it is not an acceptable political system. To repeat, as a minor change I’d have the Fed made part of the Treasury. As an alternative, it would be better to have the Fed more directly under congressional control. -- Milton Friedman

And then of course, is that pesky constitution, article 1 section 8, that describes exactly what body is responsible to “coin Money” and to “regulate the Value thereof." Hint: It isn't an independent body.

[–]LegatusBlackChairman of the Federal Reserve Bank 3ポイント4ポイント5ポイント 2日前 (2子コメント)

The Fed is the fiscal agent of the federal government. The more U.S. debt the Fed holds, the more it enables deficit spending.

I can already discount your argument since you just called the Federal Reserve the "Fiscal Agent of the Federal Government". You are clearly extremely underinformed in Monetary Policy.

Congress was the body that gave The Fed it's dual mandate.

The seven members of the Board of Governors are appointed by the President and confirmed by the Senate

Also, you can read detailed reports regarding the meddling Congress and POTUS have done with The Fed.

First, it's hilarious how you try to misconstrue President /u/TurkandJD's argument. The Federal Reserve is independent in its actions, it is insulated from political backlash on its monetary policy decisions (such as QE) because it is not controlled by Congress, this allows the Fed to make monetary decisions that might not be popular in the short term, but sound in the long-term maintenance of economic stability (see my reply to /u/JimmyMisner9), something libertarians seem to be against. About your article on the meddling, it hilariously avoids discussing the whether or not the meddling actually WORKED (what could be suspected of Professors from such low universities), the Federal Reserve and Princeton University can assure you that the Federal Reserve was not at all intimidated by the POTUS or the CEA and maintained a long-term monetary policy that ensured the US wouldn't collapse like the Soviet Union did over a damned war in the Koreas.

The Fed isn't any independent body I've ever heard of. Not even close. As far as whims of congress are concerned, don't take my word for it:

Oh, I promise I'm not.

Quote

I can also quote people who have personal incentives on the issue. Or, I can provide a reputable analysis on the issue, or two, or three, or four, or even five.

The economy isn't something you have got to be "democratic" about, and agrarians from the 1770s would never have foreseen a postindustrial world such as our own. Stop trying to draw parallels where there are none, monetary policy is not as simple or as inconsequential as you might think.

[–]Beane666Libertarian 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 2日前 (1子コメント)

I can already discount your argument since you just called the Federal Reserve the "Fiscal Agent of the Federal Government". You are clearly extremely underinformed in Monetary Policy.

Here's a not so clearly uninformed article.

sound in the long-term maintenance of economic stability

Define long-term.

The Federal Reserve is independent in its actions, it is insulated from political backlash...

Not only are they not independent from politics as I've shown, they aren't insulated either. It's a pillow fort. The very body that created The Fed has the power to change it or unmake it at any time in a completely normal legislative action, like Audit. Otherwise, why would this even be even open to discussion? Congress would simply be powerless to act! However, article 1 section 8 clearly defines that they are not powerless.

assure you that the Federal Reserve was not at all intimidated by the POTUS or the CEA...

I find it hilarious that in order to oppose Audit, you make the very compelling case that meddling never works and The Fed was not intimidated. If that is to be believed, what possible opposition to Audit could you have? Will "Audited" meddling suddenly become a highly effective means of intimidation, when so far, as you claim, it has failed to do so?

I can also quote people who have personal incentives on the issue.

Yes, sure. Because folks with personal incentives on issues are completely unbiased. I don't have the time to review all these other articles immediately, but I have them bookmarked.

[–]LegatusBlackChairman of the Federal Reserve Bank 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 2日前 (0子コメント)

Here's a not so clearly uninformed article.

"Although the Federal Reserve Banks also provide services on behalf of many domestic and interna- tional government agencies, the majority of the fiscal agency and depository services the Banks provide are performed for the U.S. Treasury."

There, a fiscal agent for the Treasury, if that was the root of your argument here, then you are more embarrassingly uninformed than I thought. Fiscal Relevance for the Treasury is too obvious when it comes to Central Banking.

Define long-term.

About as long as QE takes to show results (ha).

Not only are they not independent from politics as I've shown, they aren't insulated either. It's a pillow fort.

Banging the same drum when I addressed that argument twice for you and your other buddy. They could not meddle with the Federal Reserve, as much as they tried, because monetary policy is, is meant to, and will remain independent of political influence, as more reputable analysis from the Princeton and the Federal Reserve itself stipulate.

The very body that created The Fed has the power to change it or unmake it at any time in a completely normal legislative action

It's certainly possible, but that would be disastrous for the US economy as I previously explained if you read my response.

Otherwise, why would this even be even open to discussion?

I ask the same question...

Congress would simply be powerless to act! However, article 1 section 8 clearly defines that they are not powerless.

"Agrarians from the 1770s would never have foreseen a postindustrial world such as our own"

~ LegatusBlack.

I find it hilarious that in order to oppose Audit, you make the very compelling case that meddling never works and The Fed was not intimidated. If that is to be believed, what possible opposition to Audit could you have? Will "Audited" meddling suddenly become a highly effective means of intimidation, when so far, as you claim, it has failed to do so?

Yes they failed to do so, but Audit would change that and make the Fed much more politically impressionable. What opposition to Audit could I have? Are you kidding! Did you miss the argument? We don't want to Politicize the Federal Reserve!

Yes, sure. Because folks with personal incentives on issues are completely unbiased.

Did you miss the "also" in "I can also quote people... incentives... on the issue"?

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[–]ncontasSecretary of Defense l Party Chairman 4ポイント5ポイント6ポイント 3日前 (3子コメント)

I repeatedly okay-ed your VP choices that you were making, that was it. If you wanted to run with a Lib VP, I was not going to stop you.

You must realize how disingenuous that is. We had an earlier understanding that a Rep-Lib ticket would go forward. All our discussions about VP candidates were predicated upon that understanding. You certainly know that there's no reason we would have been chasing a Libertarian VP (although those candidates were all great) if you were also planning to run with the Dems and screw us over.

You didn't tell us that. You just kept smiling and being helpful, while all the while throwing the election to the other side. There's no way to weasel out of this on technicalities - even if you somehow believed that we were considering the shortlist that you gave us out of pure friendship, don't you think we deserved to be told that you'd be backing the other horse? In what world is this not a deliberate deception?

It was an incredibly dishonest, dishonorable, and shitty thing to do to the folks you'd been working with for months. And now I'm just talking about how you did it, not what you did - which is work to guarantee the election of the candidate most antithical to your party's highest ideals.

However, please do tell of how Sunrise was going to throw us overboard to get the Civic Party more seats AND make us send voters to the NE to win the state for Turks reelection.

I don't even know where to start this is so detected from reality. Sunrise can't make anyone do anything, it can't force - it is solely based on the mutual consent of its members.

The Libs had gotten huge growth. You guys could have run the table, gotten almost anything you fought strongly for. Instead, you just agreed. You accepted every plan put forward; you didn't push back in any significant way. If you had just once said that a strategy was totally unacceptable to the Libs to the extent that you were considering leaving or backing the Dems, that strategy would have been DOA. Flushed down the toilet.

It's hardly our fault that you failed to speak up for your party. And the only one who threw anyone overboard in this story is you - and you did it without offering any warning and with a concerted series of lies.

[–]trelivewireLibertarian 4ポイント5ポイント6ポイント 3日前 (0子コメント)

[–]NateLooneyChairman | Clerk Triumvir | Former Congressman/S.o.S. 2ポイント3ポイント4ポイント 3日前 (1子コメント)

reason we would have been chasing a Libertarian VP

Maybe because you actually were vetting our candidates and actually believed in real conservatism? Or is that just false hope?

don't you think we deserved to be told that you'd be backing the other horse? In what world is this not a deliberate deception?

It was deceitfulness, yes, but that is strategy. Plus, we left the coalition before any deals with the Democrats were in place, we had no obligation to tell you anything.

Sunrise can't make anyone do anything, it can't force - it is solely based on the mutual consent of its members.

Correct, however it can back out on endorsing a party, or even entirely form a new coalition without that said party.

Instead, you just agreed. You accepted every plan put forward; you didn't push back in any significant way.

These are blatant lies, when I did push back, I got told to calm down and that the punishment was a major concern.

[–]ncontasSecretary of Defense l Party Chairman 5ポイント6ポイント7ポイント 3日前 (0子コメント)

actually believed in real conservatism?

That's pretty rich coming from the libertarian conservative trying to elect a Sandersite. I was actually very impressed by the Libertarian candidates for VP and excited to have them on the ticket. However, such an avid and skilled practitioner of realpolitik as yourself knows that you can't just throw the ticket away, strategically speaking We had an excellent slate of true conservatives to run - you were the one who backed out to support the left.

entirely form a new coalition

If we wanted to form a new coalition, we would have been happy that you'd left! We weren't! We were shocked, because we'd had no indication your concerns were anywhere near large enough for such a drastic action.

In negotiation, there are red lines. For the GOP, it was retaining the Presidency. I made that clear as part of the negotiation. You expressed some vague concerns and then pressed ahead. You explicitly signed off on the Eastefn State division plan, and then withdrew a few days later. Had you guys given us any indication that you felt compelled to leave, we would have worked it out! And even if we hadn't been able to come a mutually sartisfying deal, at least we would have tried. Surely our mutual respect demanded that at least?

strategy

I love strategy as much as anyone - probably more than most. But I have never lied to my partners or, for that matter, opponents. Especially not people I've worked closely with for months.

[–]trelivewireLibertarian 2ポイント3ポイント4ポイント 3日前 (7子コメント)

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このスレッドの続きを見る

[–]ValladarexLibertarian 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 3日前 (4子コメント)

[–]ncontasSecretary of Defense l Party Chairman 4ポイント5ポイント6ポイント 3日前 (3子コメント)

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[–]ncontasSecretary of Defense l Party Chairman 4ポイント5ポイント6ポイント 2日前 (1子コメント)

I have screenshots that I fully intend to post later tonight, along with our perspective on events. Nate and I talked last night about "our" ticket's chances for success. He speculated about how together we might do in the NE - and all the while I knew that the deal with the Dems had been made. That's no way to treat a party for which you have a modicum of respect or friendship.

On your point about Sunrise, it's not as clear cut as it would appear. Sunrise was not just a presidential coalition; its core was dividing up races to avoid splitting the right wing vote. We believed that you had withdrawn from that aspect but, provided the VPship goes your way, you'd be on board for the POTUS ticket. As in, you were going to expand your house/senate presence at the expense of Sunrise, but we'd still work together for Presidsnt. We were even given a shortlist of Libs to choose as Turk's VP - a shortlist which I was discussing with Nate as recently as last night.

I don't begrudge you guys the right to make a deal someone else - we're not intrinsically bound together - even if I think it's a mistake (and I certainly do). What I do mind very deeply is the appalling way this was handled, which was deplorable and indefensible.

[–]trelivewireLibertarian 2ポイント3ポイント4ポイント 2日前 (0子コメント)

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MCNN

調停者

HE HOLDS THE FOUNTAINHEAD HIGH

AND HE PUTS IT DOWN AND HE LIES

HE HOLDS HIS IDEALS HIGH

The GOP isn't conservative so we're going to ally with the liberals.

FROG BOILIN' NATE

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAHAHAHAHA