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/r/boardgames Announcements: Moderation, Rules, and Civility (self.boardgames)

Epsilon_ballsHansa Solo が 投稿 - stickied post

It's been a busy several months since our last moderation update. In that time we've seen our computer overlords overthrow Go champion Lee Se-dol. Foxtrot games posted an explanation of how MSRP is set for board games. Asmodee North America's new pricing policy proved controversial, and started discussion on how we could help local game stores. The larger tabletop community was rocked by a long post on sexual harassment and assault spawning many discussions about our role in the situation.

We have been working with /r/metaboardgames in the past months to update our rules. You can read the full revised rules on our sidebar, but below is a brief summary of the changes:

  • Civility - This has been moved to the first rule. We've completely rewritten section with links to reddiquette and examples of what we find uncivil behavior. Disagreements are a natural part of discussion, but people who attack, harass, or are otherwise uncivil members of the community will not be tolerated.

  • Crowdfunding - We've restructured the rules to make them easier to parse.

  • Haul and Unboxing Posts - /r/metaboardgames had a great discussion about unboxing posts. In light of that discussion, we have decided to allow component reviews. We will begin allowing posts that review and discuss the game components. "Low effort" (posts without much text explanation) will continue to be removed, as well as "Let's open the box and see what's inside" unboxing videos.

  • Off Topic Subjects - We've added a new section at the bottom that lists a few subjects that are considered off topic posts (people can continue to discuss what they want within the comments, presuming it meets our civility and other rules). One of particular note here is that games regarding specific politicians will be removed; as the US general elections approach, these posts generate heated discussions that break our civility rules.

  • Buying, Selling, Trading, and Giving Away Games - We've updated our rules to allow for giveaway posts if they are limited to /r/boardgames. Posts linking to websites that are running a giveaway will be removed.

Several of you have reached out to us regarding /u/dambedani's account deletion. There were concerns for your information's safety, her safety, and Pancake's well-being. Immediately prior to her deletion, she reached out to us with an explanation. Below is an abridged version:

Two days after I posted my last give away, someone came into my store and said he was a fan of mine and he had traveled to meet me. He never had contacted me on Reddit and I never received any threats from him prior, but he got aggressive, knew where I lived, the works. He's in custody now, but unfortunately the few games that I got out, those are it [about 12]. I had to cease my giveaway, and unfortunately can't do anymore. I was hoping that you could help me out in some way to let everyone know kind of what happened and why I had to stop - I don't want them thinking that I just disappeared and ran off.

To all the Pancake lovers, she assured me "Pancake is alive and well, and still a whore." A few of you were generous enough to donate money to /u/dambedani to help with the giveaway. She assured me that she is going through her emails now, hoping to match emails to reddit usernames so she can refund that money. If you donated, she may contact you via a throwaway account regarding that refund.

Finally, internally our moderation team has changed. A huge thank you to /u/phil_s_stein for his time as both technical moderator and interim head moderator of /r/boardgames. In his absence, I have taken the role of head moderator of our little community. With his departure we are looking for additional moderators. There are three areas where we could use help:

  • Off-hours Moderation (UTC >= 0). /u/Sigma83 and /u/soupness do a great job of moderating while us american moderators are asleep, but we could always use more help for our night time.

  • Technical Moderator: /u/phil_s_stein handled much of the backend CSS and python scripts we use to update our sidebar and run /u/bg3po.

  • Community Manager: We're interested in bringing on someone who could focus exclusively on building up the community, rather than enforcing rules. This person would coordinate regular discussions, and reach out and coordinate our AMA schedules.

If you are interested in joining the moderation team, or want to nominate someone else, please fill out this google form. I will be looking at each of the nominations personally.

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トップ新着論争中古い順Q&A

[–]fueledbysatan 68ポイント69ポイント  (83子コメント)

That really sucks about /u/dambedani....why do people have to be such creeps??

[–]CityWithoutMenBohnanza - I'm in stink 32ポイント33ポイント  (0子コメント)

As my dad is very fond of saying, "no good deed goes unpunished."

I hadn't even heard about the account deletion, but the reason, Christ, people are beyond messed up. Hope that scumbag gets everything he has coming to him.

[–]Chuckmac88 11ポイント12ポイント  (5子コメント)

Was /u/dambedani the one who had those posts with lists of games that she was giving away that blew up in minutes after she posted?

[–]fueledbysatan 13ポイント14ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yep, apparently some dude doxxed her and started stalking her hardcore.

[–]timotabI have the three of clouds! 1ポイント2ポイント  (3子コメント)

Yes

[–]Chuckmac88 20ポイント21ポイント  (2子コメント)

OMG that is so incredibly sad. That makes me boil to a level of rage that I don't get to often. How?!? Just How the F@%$ does anyone get to a point in life where they are comfortable doing such crazy and awful shit to someone who has been so great to our community. She probably even gave him a game that MF.

Like at some point when your planning to carry something like this out, does it not occur to you to think, "Hey, this might not turn out so good" or "Hey, this is f****** crazy, what do I expect to happen"

There is no place in this community (or anywhere) for people who do bad things to good people. That makes me sick to my core.

I didn't interact with /u/dambedani but I did take notice of how great she was to this sub. So if you read this and need anything, feel free to reach out.

[–]G8kprRisk Legacy [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Like at some point when your planning to carry something like this out, does it not occur to you to think, "Hey, this might not turn out so good" or "Hey, this is f****** crazy, what do I expect to happen"

I dunno.. it seems like there are a lot of fucking weirdos out there. I don't get it.

There is this group of lonely fucking men in Toronto, they get together and then aggressively try to get dates with random women on the street. They hit up the Toronto Eaton Centre once (a large multi-level mall in the heart of Downtown). They would stand on the sidewalk, and if a woman walked by, they'd follow in step, offer to carry any parcels, try to strike up small talk, and just be over all creepy as fuck.

This was all because the guy that organized this, promised these pathetic idiots that this was how you got dates. Some women complained, and security shuffled them away... then several months later they put out a notice on the internet that they were going to do this again, and they got shut down pretty damn quick.

Here is an article about these assholes.

[–]sigma83"The world changed. Crime did not." 111ポイント112ポイント  (74子コメント)

Because our culture enables them.

This is why I am constantly talking about inclusivity and harassment. This is why I will never stop trying to call out sexist nonsense - BECAUSE THINGS LIKE THIS HAPPEN.

Like /u/captainraffi said above, every time someone says something like 'you're making such a big fuss over nothing' or 'stop being so sensitive' they are actively contributing to the problem, because they are normalizing harassment and silencing people from speaking up.

[–]gamerthrowaway_ARVN in the daytime, VC at night 35ポイント36ポイント  (20子コメント)

Because our culture enables them.

Agreed. Sometimes the root cause is straight up sexism, sometimes it's horrible social skills and hygine, but whatever it is, it creates an unpleasant environment that creates a self-sustaining feedback on itself. My LGS is passable, it has good deals (read: Rebellion for just under $50) periodically, but it's a prototypical nerd cave. As such, few of our female gamers that go to the weekly gaming events will go in. We live in an urban environment and have for years. My spouse, who is a strong independent person unafraid of conflict and from a no-nonsense upbringing, is leery of going in to the shop sometimes. That's a powerful indictment in my eyes.

[–]clavalle 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Rebellion for just under $50

Saywhatnow!?

[–]Epsilon_ballsHansa Solo[S] 12ポイント13ポイント  (17子コメント)

Building on that, what can we - people who attend weekly meetups - do to be more inclusive? That is, what changes would your wife like to see at your local store?

[–]AsmadiGamesGame Designer + Publisher 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

Number 1 is really to call out people when they say crappy things, even the things that seem "borderline". Not full out anger, but a simple "Please don't say things like that," goes a very long way in informing them about their behavior. It also makes very clear to marginalized members that someone cares about how they feel and their inclusion in the group. That second point cannot be underestimated.

"Person X said offensive things and nobody spoke up," is a very very common reason I've heard from women and minorities in why they don't return to a game group. If you're new to a group, it's difficult to be forced to call out an established member.

[–]phantomrhiannonRobinson Crusoe Adventure On The Cursed Island 4ポイント5ポイント  (14子コメント)

Not the wife, but another woman here. There's a of obvious stuff that I know you already know, because I recognize you as a good ally around these parts :). If you haven't already, I'd suggest looking up micro aggressions, which are often unintentional and subconscious, so it's easy to miss that you're putting them out there even if you don't want to.

Also on the subtle end, I wish casual acquaintances understood that choice of game has higher stakes for me as a woman than for men. Which isn't to say that game night should default to ladies' choice. But my disinterest in a game could be very loaded, and I might not be comfortable volunteering why, because I don't know what the reaction will be. The takeaway: be mindful of when women (or other relevant individuals) seem to be dismissive or uninterested in games of certain types. You could ask why, or ask for other suggestions, or present other options in a different category, or explain "[person] has been looking forward to this one, if it's problematic for you, so you want to pick the next game?" It depends on the situation, your personality, etc. how you handle it.

Specifically, here are some reasons I may want to avoid certain games that other women may have in common with me:

1. The game makes me think harder than I want to in this scenario. I love a good brain-burner. But I spend all day at work thinking a little harder than I should have to because my boss questions my decisions and makes me explain my thought process more often than my male colleagues. He doesn't even realize he does this. I'm smart, but I have to work hard not to be perceived as stupid. Now that I'm off duty, I don't want to feel stupid, or I'd like to give my brain a break.

2. I don't want to learn a new game right now. See above, re: needing a mental break, feeling the need to prove I'm not stupid. Also, I'm afraid the rules explanation might turn into mansplaining. These might be awesome, inclusive people at the table, but I don't know that yet.

3. The representation of women in the game is kind of crappy and I don't feel comfortable with that. Or maybe I do, but I don't know if the guy sitting next to me is going to crack sexist jokes about wanting to bang the scantily clad sorceress.

4. I'm suspicious of why they suggested a gateway/light game. Do they think I can't handle something harder? Will they mansplain gaming to me?

And for crying out loud, if I do explain why I don't want to play something, don't argue with me about the reason. By all means, play the game that the majority wants to play, but saying that you find brain burners to be a great way to relax after work makes me feel invalidated. I mean, sure, it's cool it that's how you feel. But don't say it like it's supposed to change the way I feel. Not you you, of course. The general you. Or maybe it's just that one totally tone deaf guy I know...

[–]labcoat_samurai 8ポイント9ポイント  (3子コメント)

saying that you find brain burners to be a great way to relax after work makes me feel invalidated. I mean, sure, it's cool it that's how you feel. But don't say it like it's supposed to change the way I feel.

Yeah.... I do exactly this. I try not to make it sound like it's a good thing or a bad thing. I like to relate it to extroversion vs introversion, i.e. that some gamers are energized by thinky games like extroverts are energized by social situations while other gamers are drained by thinky games like introverts are by social situations.

One way isn't better than the other, but if you're a gaming extrovert, it can sometimes feel a bit disappointing when the night still feels young and no one wants to play that big epic brain burner you're so excited about. Oh well, there's always next week.

So to anyone I say that to, sorry. It's a crappy way to handle disappointment.

As for the rest of your post, yeah, you shouldn't have to justify not wanting to play something, especially when there are people like me who will forget to keep their mouths shut and will try to argue with your justification. again, sorry

[–]phantomrhiannonRobinson Crusoe Adventure On The Cursed Island 8ポイント9ポイント  (2子コメント)

That sounds ok to me. Gamers should be able to talk amicably about why they do/don't like games. But I can't tell you the number of times I've had to fight for the fact that it's ok for me to have my own opinion that only applies to me.

[–]labcoat_samurai 8ポイント9ポイント  (1子コメント)

One thing that frustrates me is that I can almost picture some people reading your comment and thinking you're blowing things out of proportion. If it had been me 15 years ago or so, I'd have been one of them.

Men (and young men in particular) have no concept of what microaggressions can do and how they can wear a person down. When you don't experience them, it's difficult to relate. You might be reacting to a full day of stupid bullshit interactions with people that, individually, don't look like a big deal, and then you get upset at some dude who doesn't even realize what he's doing, and everyone thinks you're the bad guy.

And because you're a woman and women are wonderful as long as they're nurturing, kind, socially perceptive, and nonaggressive, you'd better bottle that up and be gracious or the group can turn on you fast, and then suddenly you're just another woman who can't take a joke (because didn't you know that women aren't funny?).

I don't envy women who get into this hobby. I love gaming, and I'd like to think I'd do it anyway, but there's no doubt that I have an easier time of it from being a guy.

[–]phantomrhiannonRobinson Crusoe Adventure On The Cursed Island 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

If it had been me 15 years ago or so, I'd have been one of them.

Please, please, please keep having these conversations, then. You'll keep learning, which is awesome. And you're incredibly well-placed to help others see these problems because you can identify with them. That's HUGE in helping people understand!

you'd better bottle that up and be gracious or the group can turn on you fast, and then suddenly you're just another woman who can't take a joke (because didn't you know that women aren't funny?).

Oh. So. Many. Times.

[–]Fire_away_Fire_away 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

  1. The representation of women in the game is kind of crappy and I don't feel comfortable with that. Or maybe I do, but I don't know if the guy sitting next to me is going to crack sexist jokes about wanting to bang the scantily clad sorceress.

Ohhh boy. As part of a couple that only plays games with other couples, this has prevented me from bringing to many games to the table. I play with 50% women. Unnecessary pictures of random tits hanging out have shelved more than one game for me and I completely get it. It's just awkward and uncomfortable once you're past that kind of cheap gimmick as a guy.

[–]Verbascum_thapsusBruxells 1893 7ポイント8ポイント  (1子コメント)

The bit about feeling stupid is so accurate it hurts.

I always feel pressure to do well at a game so that the men at the table don't walk away thinking "wow, women are sure shitty at board games," as in the xkcd effect. I feel like if I come in last in Trajan I'll automatically be relegated to the "spouse games" player and shuttled off to Takenoko or Patchwork.

[–]xkcd_transcriber 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Image

Mobile

Title: How it Works

Title-text: It's pi plus C, of course.

Comic Explanation

Stats: This comic has been referenced 914 times, representing 0.8402% of referenced xkcds.

xkcd.com | xkcd sub | Problems/Bugs? | Statistics | Stop Replying | Delete

[–]mens_libertina 3ポイント4ポイント  (4子コメント)

As a femme, I really don't care about sexism in a game. Porn doesn't really turn me on, but fantasy genres are going to have busty ladies just like beasts of men--it's fantasy.

But your points about heavy/light and interaction are my sticking points. I solve problems all day in a stressful, professional environment, I want to relax and socialize. I don't want to think about everyone's cards, positions, resources that will appear after this round, etc. I probably want to drive a glass of wine, too. That means no Race for the Galaxy, or even Waterdeep if it's after 8. I'm going to want something light and social where missteps and levity are ok. I've been in groups where talking was limited to the game at hand.

[–]Verbascum_thapsusBruxells 1893 12ポイント13ポイント  (3子コメント)

but fantasy genres are going to have busty ladies just like beasts of men--it's fantasy.

Fantasy doesn't exist in a vacuum. It doesn't have its own inherent definitions and rules, it's shaped by what people want from the genre.

We have the ability to ask for better from the genre, we don't have to accept chainmail bikinis and steroid guys.

I totally support you enjoying those types of art styles if you wish, but to act like that's the way fantasy should look forever just isn't right.

[–]mens_libertina -1ポイント0ポイント  (2子コメント)

I am not saying that's how it SHOULD look, except maybe for Heavy Metal magazine. I'm saying, I'm a female-American and it doesn't bother me because it's part of the culture. Now, I am more than willing to argue that boobs on armor is just plain stupid, but I'm not going to refuse to play Munchkin because it's full of stereotypes either. I love surrealism (which is European(?) fantasy like Pan's labyrinth) and would like to see more of it. And even fairytale type fantasy can be less Conan and more the 70s style (thinking of the animated Hobbit, for example).

[–]phantomrhiannonRobinson Crusoe Adventure On The Cursed Island 9ポイント10ポイント  (1子コメント)

I think the problem with the isolated quote is that saying "it's just fantasy" is dismissive if the fact that the representation of women in fantasy art is problematic. You can be OK with it personally, and that's cool. I own Defenders of the Realm even though I think the art is problematic. But the way you worded your comment made it sound like you're writing off the broader issue as, well, not an issue.

[–]mens_libertina 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I guess that I don't make it a bigger issue then it is. I don't need my Disney women to be strong heroines because I expected them to be (just) Disney princesses. I don't hold Disney movies to a high standard or as some moral authority (even though their audiences are impressionable), which is probably what I'm thinking with fantasy. It's a passtime, it's frivolity, it's make-believe. It should not be a problem that the some aspects are exaggerated in entertainment.

If you want to attack one dimensional characters and reinforcing stereotypes, then go after romance and humor works. But no one does that because we understand their place as escapism, and are ok with them being unrealistic. Somehow, fantasy and sci-fi entertainment are being subjected to this other standard, likely because their audience is educated and can voice their desires. Which is great, let's see more creativity! But it's "just" entertainment so a lot of elements are simplified and rely on artistic crutches. Sci-fi has its roots in science, intellectualism, and the human condition so I expect different elements and tropes than fantasty, which comes out of the myths and legends of extremely gendered societies. I don't mind damsels in distress in fantasy any more than perfect teeth and hair on the love interest in romance. I don't find it anymore "problematic" than Gone With the Wind or Sound of Music.

All this said, this is why I prefer sci-fi, which tends to be asexual overall and egalitarian across genders and species. I never really identified with women in either fantasy or romance stories. Growing up I read L'Engle, Herbert, King, Chriton, Aasimov, and Clarke. I read the vampire chronicles by Anne Rice later.

[–]movieman94Star Wars Imperial Assault -1ポイント0ポイント  (1子コメント)

I'm sorry, but some of these points are just hard to get behind. You say you don't want to have to think too hard, but if someone suggests a light game you think they may be looking down on you? Additionally, I don't feel like being a woman should give you an automatic out for why you don't want to play a game. That really doesn't make sense

[–]phantomrhiannonRobinson Crusoe Adventure On The Cursed Island 9ポイント10ポイント  (0子コメント)

You're misreading me. To address both points:

You say you don't want to have to think too hard, but if someone suggests a light game you think they may be looking down on you?

This is a list of potential reasons for turning down games that I, women I've talked to, and women represented by research that I've read have had at different times. It's not intended to be universally applicable to all women at all times. Not all women experience the "I don't want to think" thing, and those of us who do don't experience it all the time. Personally, I don't want to play brain burners on a work day with people I don't know very well. Talk to me on the weekend in a group of close friends and I might feel differently. I can feel that way sometimes, and other women can feel uncomfortable sometimes when they show up to a game night and somebody brings out Takenoko because "it's cute and easy!"

And my list isn't intended to be exhaustive, either. I'm sure other women could add other reasons, and some of those might be profoundly different from the ones I've presented. Just because we have different experiences doesn't invalidate them. The point is that they might be very personal and very important, and not just "meh, I just don't like it all that much."

Addtionally, I don't feel like being a woman should give you an automatic out for why you don't want to play a game. That really doesn't make sense.

I'm not asking for an "automatic out" because I'm a woman. I'm saying that because of my experiences being a woman, the reasons I have for not wanting to play a game might be very personal and important to me, but I might be wary about sharing those reasons because (in the hypothetical above scenario at a group in a game store) I don't know the people around me, and I might get a response that's...well, frankly, just like yours. Telling me I'm not making sense when I'm talking about my own, very valid, feelings.

When I suggested that a welcoming environment is one where people understand that a woman's reasons for disliking a game might be loaded, I am NOT asking for this:

Group member: "It's co-cop night. What's everybody up for? We have Eldritch Horror, Defenders of the Realm, Pandemic, and Hanabi. Opinions?"

Me: "I'd rather not play Defenders if that's cool with everyone."

General group: "It shall be just as you say, because you are a woman!"

I'm asking for something more like this:

Group member: "It's co-op night. What's everybody up for? We have EH, DotR, Pandemic, and Hanabi. Opinions?"

Me: "I'd rather not play Defenders, if that's ok with everyone."

Group Member: "I was actually really hoping we'd play that tonight. Is there any particular reason you don't want to play it?"

Me: "Oh, no, I just never have all that much fun with that one. I heard the other table talking about Suburbia. I think I'll join them, and come back for the next game."

Group: "See you later, etc."

And I'm absolutely asking to avoid this:

Me: "Oh, no, I just never have all that much fun with that one. I heard the other table talking about Suburbia. I think I'll join them, and come back for the next game."

Defender of Defender: "Aww, come on. Why not? What's the problem? You can still have fun playing with us. Stick around."

Me: "Well, honestly, the depiction of the women makes me uncomfortable."

Defender of Defender: "It's not that bad! Look at the Cleric - she's cool. Besides, that's just the way fantasy art is. They know their audience!"

...because now my perfectly valid reason for not wanting to play this game is being dismissed and invalidated. And now I'm in the middle of a debate about sexism that I didn't want to have, and tried to avoid in the first place by dodging the question.

All I'm saying is that a welcoming atmosphere for a new woman at the gaming table can be cultivated by showing a little discretion and sensitivity - completely deferential treatment is not necessary. And heck, if it helps at all, I know that anybody regardless of gender, race, class, sexual orientation, disability, age or any other quality could have an intensely personal reason to dislike a game, like their dad died at the table while they were playing it, and should be treated with the same respect.

[–]pb49erMaster Diplomat -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

I've always seen you be a vocal ally and I appreciate that. Especially as a cis white male.

[–]G8kprRisk Legacy [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

As such, few of our female gamers that go to the weekly gaming events will go in.

Years ago, i was getting a bit into warhammer 40k... My wife came with me into Games Workshop, later she said she immediately felt uncomfortable. I was pretty aware of the sales guy that nearly tripped over himself to help her. Whether this was just trying to help a woman feel welcome, or nerd awkwardness, I'm not sure.

I took her to Fan Expo (Canada's largest comic con) waaaay back when it was still relatively small and mostly guys. She said she felt out of place, because back then it really was 80% guys. Cosplay wasn't a thing either then.

I've taken my daughter to Fan Expo the last few years, and that balance has fallen squarely around 50/50, maybe 55/45. But it's pretty even, and more families are there as well, which is good to see.

[–]Christian_Kong 17ポイント18ポイント  (36子コメント)

Because our culture enables them.

I am curious what you mean by this. Outside of crazy people themselves, stalkers are generally looked down upon on by society. Some people with mental illnesses can be remedied, but there are some that cannot be cured or do not have anyone who cares(or knows) to cure them. People have been stalking people as long as people have been around.

[–]button_fly 14ポイント15ポイント  (5子コメント)

Stalking is an extreme behavior, the attitudes and opinions that the stalker is expressing are not. By forgiving, explaining away, and otherwise normalizing the discriminatory attitude that is shared by a man who doesn't think it's a big deal when someone makes a crude joke toward a passing woman but would never do it himself, the man who makes that crude joke, and the man who follows her home to assault her, we've enabled the extreme behavior by normalizing the attitude that all three of those behaviors stem from.

[–]VoroxpeteTotally not a Cylon 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yes. Thank you. Better than I could have put it.

コメントをもっと表示する (4 返事)

    [–]sigma83"The world changed. Crime did not." 8ポイント9ポイント  (9子コメント)

    every time someone says something like 'you're making such a big fuss over nothing' or 'stop being so sensitive' they are actively contributing to the problem, because they are normalizing harassment and silencing people from speaking up.

    People have been stalking people as long as people have been around.

    And that's not okay.

    [–][削除されました]  (4子コメント)

    [removed]

      [–]sigma83"The world changed. Crime did not."[M] -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

      Rule 1.

      [–][削除されました]  (1子コメント)

      [removed]

        [–]sigma83"The world changed. Crime did not."[M] -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Rule 1.

        [–]VoroxpeteTotally not a Cylon 11ポイント12ポイント  (17子コメント)

        People have been stalking people as long as people have been around.

        I don't know if your intent was to provide a perfect example of what /u/sigma83 is talking about, but that's exactly what you just did.

        [–]sysop073 12ポイント13ポイント  (8子コメント)

        Then we also have a culture that enables murder, theft, and all other crimes. I don't understand the point of that logic; we can't prevent most crimes, we can only punish people afterwards, therefore society "enables" those crimes?

        [–]VoroxpeteTotally not a Cylon 12ポイント13ポイント  (5子コメント)

        Then we also have a culture that enables murder, theft, and all other crimes. I don't understand the point of that logic; we can't prevent most crimes, we can only punish people afterwards, therefore society "enables" those crimes?

        Because when little Timmy takes his brother's toys we say "Stealing is wrong" but when little Timmy is always following that girl around at school we say "Awww, he's got a crush."

        That's the difference.

        [–]ERRORMONSTER 2ポイント3ポイント  (4子コメント)

        I don't think people do that to grown adults who know how to appropriately express their feelings. Until you get past puberty, you're a slave to your emotions. The best we can do is try to curb major atrocities committed during that timeframe. When you're a kid you understand that stealing is wrong. You don't (and can't, I would argue) understand that saying girls are gross is a sexist statement.

        [–]savah 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Kids can absolutely understand that saying girls are gross is a sexist statement. Or that following that girl at school that doesn't want to be followed is a bad thing to do.

        As a parent of three and someone who has always worked extensively with kids, I think it's actually ridiculously easy to have real conversations with very young kids about gender stereotypes.

        I think changing cultural norms starts really early, and it happens when parents and adults who work with kids engage in real conversations about what's actually happening in their lives.

        [–]SortaEvil 7ポイント8ポイント  (2子コメント)

        and can't, I would argue

        I'd love to hear that argument. And, here's a crazy suggestion, but maybe if we didn't just say "boys will be boys" and treated sexual harassment like we treat stealing (IE: tell them it's bad), it wouldn't be such an issue?

        [–]ERRORMONSTER -3ポイント-2ポイント  (1子コメント)

        I'm sorry, are we still talking about kids? I don't think I've heard of a legitimate case of kids committing sexual harassment in a very long time. I'm talking like elementary school. You just seem like the butt-hurt third-wave feminist that takes away the basis for legitimate arguments because everything is a crisis. You read my argument and presented me to have a completely different perspective than I actually have, so great job on that one. No "boys will be boys." Try "kids will be kids, unable to fully understand the mental states of other people until ~9 years old, which, in case your math is on par with your logic, is at the end of elementary school." Teaching a child about the complexity of -isms is like teaching a monkey calculus. Yeah, you can get them to imitate what you want them to, but you haven't actually fixed the problem; you've just pushed your own morals onto them to satisfy you instead of showing them what the "natural" path of their moral evolution would [apparently] be and why it is wrong, and letting them come to the conclusion of how else they could approach it.

        [–]SortaEvil 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Well, you said "until they're past puberty" first, so I was assuming we were talking about teenagers. Sorry, I wasn't trying to put words in your mouth.

        That said, teaching your kids about consent at a young age can work, and I know some kick ass parents I could point to as examples. Even if they are just modeling what they see and don't have a proper moral framework to explain why such and such is bad, they're still learning (at a fantastic rate, no less). If they say "girls are gross" ask them why. If they want to play with someone who doesn't want to play with them, explain to them that the other kid has a day in being their friend, too (the last one is an actual example, as soon as the kid [who'd already been taught about consent from his parents] made the connection, he was far less upset about it.

        Kids want to learn. Teach them.

        [–]thisIsYourFrontpage -4ポイント-3ポイント  (1子コメント)

        Here's the long and short of it: Sexism hysteria causes community upset, community responds by putting someone with SRS history in a mod position. That person then posts about stuff confirming their bias, and the other political warriors are emboldened and come out of the woodwork.

        This isn't a new tactic for these types, nor is it a good sign for our community. I truly hope that when someone claims to speak for all women, and calls it problematic for other women to voice opposing views, we treat them with skepticism. It happens over and over again in male-dominated communities. Guilt overpowers reason, and guys can't wait to give them the keys to make up for imagined wrongs. Every. Popular. "Geeky" thing.

        You can't get rid of this toxic element once you let it call the shots. They will invite more of their own. Just downvote and ignore the gender hysteria online, no hobby is safe from this shit online.

        [–]sysop073 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

        Careful; disagreeing is apparently a rule 1 violation

        [–]Christian_Kong -1ポイント0ポイント  (7子コメント)

        Please go on.......Everyone on the planet knows that stalking is wrong, except for the mentally ill. Talk about it and educate all you want, every sane person knows not to stalk people. Its the mentally ill that find justification within themselves in the face of the entire outside world saying otherwise to do such things.

        I think it's naive to essentially say "hey crazy people, stop doing crazy things" is an effective method of solving such an issue. People like sigma can speak up all they want(and I am not saying there aren't admirable things you can speak on in the harassment realm) on an issue like this but they people that they are trying to get through to aren't going to get the message.

        [–]VoroxpeteTotally not a Cylon 19ポイント20ポイント  (3子コメント)

        So in all your years of gaming, you've never met that guy who maybe stares just a little too hard at the girl behind the counter in the comic book store? Who doesn't realise how uncomfortable it makes her when he keeps bringing up the idea that she should try cosplay, and keeps suggesting which characters she could dress up as? Who takes pictures of pretty girls at conventions without asking permission first?

        And who, maybe, that one time, looked up this girl in his WoW guild, just to show you how cute she is. And it wasn't like he was "stalking" her or anything, it's just that she uploads raid videos on her YouTube, and that's linked to her Google+ account. And it's not like there's any harm in it anyway, this total dork with a crush on this girl who lives on the other side of the country.

        And how did he know where she lives anyhow?

        [–]Christian_Kong 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

        I'm not saying anything you are saying is ok, but what you are saying(being creepy) is on a whole different level than the guy who is going to "travel"(I'm going to assume a lot in this case) to meet someone they never met only to get angry at them. There is a line you cross there where you go from creep that needs to learn how to act like a normal person to psychopath.

        And how did he know where she lives anyhow?

        I'd guess either he was a recipient of one of the freebies or was able to get an email or something that you can use one of those find out everything possible on someone for $50 websites. Those should be illegal.

        [–]VoroxpeteTotally not a Cylon 6ポイント7ポイント  (1子コメント)

        There is a line you cross there where you go from creep that needs to learn how to act like a normal person to psychopath.

        See this is what you're not understanding. How, all those times in my hypothetical scenario, no one spoke up. No one takes this guy aside and helps him to understand how this behaviour is not OK. Maybe they even encourage it. Maybe when he tells his friends that Stacey at the comic store was wearing a low cut top today, they all smile approvingly.

        There isn't some switch that magically flips in people's brains. Behaviour is learned. It can be encouraged or discouraged. Think about the character I'm describing, and think about all those times when someone should have said "Dude, don't be a fucking creep."

        That's how we enable this pattern of abuse. By not challenging people when we should. By not teaching them how to respect others, how to understand boundaries. By not giving them the proper tools to understand what is right and what is wrong.

        [–]Christian_Kong -2ポイント-1ポイント  (0子コメント)

        There isn't some switch that magically flips in people's brains. Behaviour is learned.

        There isn't a switch, their minds are broken. Behavior can be learned but there is a Atlantic Ocean sized gap between your examples and what this dope in question did. They are on another planet then the dork that gawked at Stacy from the comic store.

        Is there times where people are being creeps and people do not speak out? Definitely. Certain people would benefit from from a "don't be a fucking creep talk." The women and men who travel across the country to proclaim their love for famous people that they have never met are well past the point of that talk. It's not because someone didn't tell them they are wrong. It's because they are mentally ill people with no one that knows and or cares about their condition. This asshole is no different. You tell people like this and tell them what they are doing is wrong and put them in jail, you know what happens? Their broken minds do mental gymnastics to say the person they are trying to court, the police, society and so on just don't understand the special bond they have.

        By not giving them the proper tools to understand what is right and what is wrong.

        You can use this line with any crime out there. That kid who shot up the school, didn't understand boundaries. That mass murder, someone should have told him killing is not cool. The girl who cut off her boyfriends balls in the middle of the night; never taught how to respect people. It's a joke and sweeping the real problem under the rug.

        [–]captainraffiLifetime Ledgerman 22ポイント23ポイント  (2子コメント)

        Hi me again.

        Everyone on the planet knows that stalking is wrong, except for the mentally ill.

        What? Nope. This is wrong.

        every sane person knows not to stalk people.

        If only.

        Mentally ill people are more likely to be the victims of harassment and assault than they are the perpetrators. Unless you want to do some gymnastics to say that "No sane person ever does a bad thing, ergo all people who do bad things are mentally ill" (which would be wrong), then please stop blaming bad things on mentally ill people. It's a really dangerous stereotype that ends up hurting mentally ill people.

        [–]Christian_Kong -4ポイント-3ポイント  (1子コメント)

        What? Nope. This is wrong.

        What. Nope. This is right. Really dude, excellent retort. Are you saying that the dozens of women George Clooney has restraining orders against are well adjusted people? That they weren't aware that hopping his fence to proclaim their love for him could have been prevented if only people had told them so?

        Mentally ill people are more likely to be the victims of harassment and assault than they are the perpetrators.

        Thats not the discussion, it's stalking, please stay on topic. This has nothing to do with the discussion:How society enables stalkers.

        "No sane person ever does a bad thing, ergo all people who do bad things are mentally ill" (which would be wrong), then please stop blaming bad things on mentally ill people

        You know that's not what I mean. There are many different bad things in this world, some that only a crazy person would do. Do you think it's unfair to label Ted Bundy and Charles Manson as mentally ill? If only someone had educated them that murdering and raping people was wrong, they would have seen the error of their ways, give me a break.

        [–]captainraffiLifetime Ledgerman 10ポイント11ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Are you saying that the dozens of women George Clooney has restraining orders against are well adjusted people?

        No I'm not saying that at all. I also think there is a difference between not being well adjusted and being mentally ill. But you said that "everyone knows that stalking is wrong, except mentally ill". You yourself in another comment said "vast majority" are mentally, which by definition is not "everyone", and research I've read said that while "over 50%" have some mental disorder, not all stalkers who enter the justice system do. In other words, some stalkers are not mentally ill.

        Thats not the discussion, it's stalking, please stay on topic. This has nothing to do with the discussion:How society enables stalkers.

        Apologies; I'm all over this post and 98% of my discussion in this post is about general issues in the hobby and not this specific instance. I will say, we don't have any way of knowing if the specific person in this instance has a mental disorder. They might, but we don't know.

        Do you think it's unfair to label Ted Bundy and Charles Manson as mentally ill?

        No, but I believe they have been actually diagnosed by medical professionals as being mentally ill. So I don't think it's unfair to call a mentally ill person mentally ill.

        I do think it's unfair to say that only mentally ill people thinking stalking is bad, when that isn't true.

        [–]darkforestzero 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

        A segment of reddit users love sharing deeply personal information and witch hunting

        [–]tickthegreatHide the Banana 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

        We live in a stalker culture where stalking is encouraged and tolerated by law enforcement and the general public. Our culture enables stalkers and supports them in their stalking.

        [–]TribalDancerAddicted to Co-op 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Exactly, thank you for saying this. It is so ingrained, people shrug at it. But we can't sit by while people get threatened, hurt, and even killed because we keep shrugging.

        [–]Bullfrog777 0ポイント1ポイント  (13子コメント)

        Creeps existing isn't a sexist issue, it's a humanity in general issue. There's bad people among all genders, all races, all backgrounds. Harassment is bad no matter who the perpetrator is or who the victim is.

        Saying this is not a gendered issue is not me "normalizing harassment" or "perpetuating rape culture".

        [–]DireTaco 10ポイント11ポイント  (12子コメント)

        This would not have happened if /u/dambedani was male. Period. Full stop. You know it, I know it, we all know it. It does absolutely no good and a lot of harm to pretend gender isn't a part of the issue.

        [–][削除されました]  (11子コメント)

        [removed]

          [–]Verbascum_thapsusBruxells 1893 2ポイント3ポイント  (3子コメント)

          Since gender is supposedly a non-issue for you, care to mention what percentage of those acts of violence, robbery and murder are committed by men?

          [–]DireTaco 5ポイント6ポイント  (3子コメント)

          Men aren't the victims of violence because they dared to have a public presence in an online forum. Women are. I'm not necessarily saying those stats are wrong, but they are irrelevant to the context of this discussion.

          [–]Bullfrog777 -2ポイント-1ポイント  (2子コメント)

          I don't think that's the case either.

          Look, doing bad things is bad, but there really is not much we can do to prevent bad people from doing bad things. Humans have been trying since we've existed. The best we can do is punish people after they do the bad things, which from what /u/dambedani said, has happened. It's not like that guy went free because the cops didn't think it was a big deal. The fact that you're trying to argue against me for just saying that bad things happen to both genders is really unnerving, honestly.

          コメントをもっと表示する (3 返事)

            [–]Skarecrow7WHAT? I'm not a traitor.. What? no I don't know what I am doing -2ポイント-1ポイント  (0子コメント)

            Because our culture enables them

            I gotta say, you hang out with some shitty people. Stalking, doxxing, harassing, or just being a dick to women (or anyone for that matter) would not be tolerated nor enabled with the people I game around.

            [–]G8kprRisk Legacy [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

            exactly... This is the first I heard of her account being deleted. But as usual, if there is a good thing going, there's some shit head that has to piss all over it.

            [–]Epsilon_ballsHansa Solo[S] 56ポイント57ポイント  (0子コメント)

            Let me be the first to say: our hearts go out to /u/dambedani as she deals with this awful situation. Nobody deserves to go through what you are, and it's especially awful to be hurt by the community you gave so much to.

            [–]nukefudge 19ポイント20ポイント  (6子コメント)

            I kinda hope /u/dambedani still lurks without an account, and that this thread reaches them somehow, just so they know they were appreciated and the sub regrets losing such a generous user. But we'll always have all the good that was shared in their time here, of course. :)

            Anyways,

            Off-hours Moderation

            I'm at UTC+1 and I mod only a few other subs (check my profile). Give us* a ring** if you like. I'm gonna go click that form now.

             

            (*: That's the Gollum plural, not the royal.)

            (**: That's got nothing to do with Gollum.)

            [–]Epsilon_ballsHansa Solo[S] 1ポイント2ポイント  (5子コメント)

            If you have not already, please use the form to submit your nomination officially. That way, I have a list of potential people all in one place.

            [–]nukefudge 0ポイント1ポイント  (4子コメント)

            Yeah sorry, I edited shortly after to reflect that I was gonna go there.

            (Ooh, we can submit ourselves multiple times!)

            [–]Epsilon_ballsHansa Solo[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (3子コメント)

            I like your enthusiasm ;)

            [–]nukefudge 3ポイント4ポイント  (2子コメント)

            I FORGOT TO MENTION MY ENTHUSIASM arrrrgh

            [–]sigma83"The world changed. Crime did not." [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

            ^ I like this person

            [–]nukefudge [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

            Of course you do! That arrow's pointing to yourself, isn't it?!
            :]

            [–]captainraffiLifetime Ledgerman 133ポイント134ポイント  (91子コメント)

            What's happened to /u/dambedani makes me sick. If you're out there lurking, I'm so sorry this happened to you. You are awesome and what you were doing was such an incredible thing, and I hate what happened to you. I don't know what we can do, but if we can do anything to help, I'd be happy to.

            To the rest of the community: please take a good hard look at what happened here. We periodically see stories, accounts, and articles about some of the shitty things that happen in our hobby, most of the time to women. While the greater hobby seems to be moving towards acceptance and a desire to help, there are still piles of people every time saying something along the lines of:

            • I don't believe you.

            • If this was really widespread we'd hear more about it.

            • I've never seen it, these reports are overblown.

            Please. Look at what just happened. This awful scary thing just happened to one of us. To a member of our community. By a member of our community. This awful shit happens, and while of course it's less likely for this to happen to someone than not, it is still happening way more than it should.

            Bad things happen in our community. We can do better and we can be better, but it takes effort and awareness from everyone.

            [–]overthemountainKemet 27ポイント28ポイント  (16子コメント)

            Personally, my side of the argument has never been one of denial. I think it does happen, probably more than any of us even realize or imagine, and the reports we do hear are probably not even the worst of it. My issue has been with claiming that this is a problem in gaming culture. I think this is simply a problem in our culture, across hobbies and niches and subgroups.

            This isn't a problem we face as boardgamers it's a problem we face as humans. Let's all make efforts to look out for each other in all aspects of our lives.

            [–]jmarFTL 8ポイント9ポイント  (5子コメント)

            Thanks for putting my thoughts into words. It seems to me every group I consider myself a part of is facing this problem. I'm a lawyer, I see people talking about harassment in the legal community. My wife's a scientist in academia, you can bet there's issues there. You hear about it in the video game community, the military, etc. It really happens anywhere men and women are together.

            My thought is always, OK... but how does pegging the issue to one particular community advance the cause of solving the problem? Let's say it is somehow unique to board games (and I would hazard, with no scientific data to back me up, that it is probably more prevalent among communities that attract people with poor social skills/loners). Let's accept that as true. OK, what does focusing on that really do? It needs to stop whether you're sitting around a table playing Catan or you're windsurfing or whatever the fuck it is you do to pass the time.

            What's the theory here? If we stop playing board games that somehow this behavior will stop? No? Then I honestly don't see the point in focusing on a hobby, or type of employment, or setting where it occurs. It's just fucking awful no matter where it happens, and the things people can do to prevent it are the same no matter what that is.

            [–]overthemountainKemet 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

            Yeah, I'm with you on that. I run a tech company - that puts me in a variety of sub groups. It's a problem in tech companies in general and among software developers in particular. It's a problem among entrepreneurs. It's a problem among executive leadership. It's really just a problem everywhere.

            [–]phantomrhiannonRobinson Crusoe Adventure On The Cursed Island 5ポイント6ポイント  (3子コメント)

            My thought is always, OK... but how does pegging the issue to one particular community advance the cause of solving the problem? Let's say it is somehow unique to board games (and I would hazard, with no scientific data to back me up, that it is probably more prevalent among communities that attract people with poor social skills/loners). Let's accept that as true. OK, what does focusing on that really do? It needs to stop whether you're sitting around a table playing Catan or you're windsurfing or whatever the fuck it is you do to pass the time.

            The point of addressing a broader problem, like sexism, in a specific setting/subculture, like gaming is that the broader problem manifests in specific ways that can be addressed in specific scenarios. You can certainly cover a lot under the heading "just be a decent human being." But also... The glass ceiling and gender based pay disparity are a problem in corporate culture; making woman feel welcome at the gaming table in a store with sexually objectified women on posters and box covers is an issue in gaming culture.

            [–]jmarFTL 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

            You make a fair point but I was referring and responding specifically to harassment. Depictions of women and pay equality are distinct issues, in my view.

            I think a reason people clash over this stuff is because a good chunk of people, reasonable people who would never hurt anyone or ever see anyone hurt, don't buy the "enabling culture" argument. For me personally, I think the link is tenuous at best. I don't think boob windows or revealing armor or the other admittedly stupid shit that goes on in games and comic books creates harassers or rapists. I think those people are created by sexual frustration, awful social skills/understanding, and loneliness. Mix this with sociopathic tendencies or aggression and it results in an abuser. Don't take this as me having pity on them at all, but I think that's the real cause.

            I think many of the industries or hobbies I mentioned attract certain types of people who are more predisposed to these behaviors, but that doesn't mean the industry needs change specifically to stop harassers. Nerdy guys with poor social skills who can't get laid will gravitate toward jobs in science, or video games, etc (please note I'm totally speaking in broad generalities). Aggressive people are more likely to end up on a football team, in a law firm, or in the military. Games will always appeal to nerdy loners by virtue of being games. Football will always appeal to aggressive guys who are kind of douches (I say this as a huge football fan) . So the prevalence of attracting harassers and abusers is higher.

            In other words, I certainly agree there are things about the culture that attract these types, but I don't think that means the culture needs to change all that much. At its base, the very nature of these activities attracts some assholes. Just like we've all encountered a "rules lawyer" for tabletop games, we've probably encountered some real creeps. And so while I am sympathetic to things like making women feel welcome (of course they should be) or eliminating gender pay inequality, I don't think those things will ultimately change harassers, rapists, and abusers. That is endemic of society - please don't take that as me saying "well it'll never change, so just give up." It can change, I just don't think getting rid of say, sexually suggestive comic book covers is what's gonna do it. Hell, youre probably gonna just make these weirdos more sexually frustrated. The changes are not gonna be community specific. And I think especially online, there's a lot of "if you don't agree on everything, youre part of the problem" mentality. I think the message that if you like certain games or books or movies you're enabling rapists and abusers alienates a lot of people who otherwise agree that these sociopaths have to go.

            [–]overthemountainKemet 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

            I'm definitely not arguing that we can't have solutions or approaches that are tied to our own subculture. I just don't like when people try to make it seem that this is a problem unique to gaming - that gamers are somehow worse than your average person. I think that approach belittles everyone involved on both sides.

            [–]phantomrhiannonRobinson Crusoe Adventure On The Cursed Island 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

            I was responding to the question "what does focusing on [sexism in gaming culture] really do?"

            [–]bullseyetm 15ポイント16ポイント  (2子コメント)

            Agreed. So many people want to use situations like this to expose injustices or certain behaviors in the hobby, but if any woman received the amount of attention and exposure /u/dambedani got with these giveaways, they would also increase the likelihood of getting harassed by some creep online.

            It's not endemic to the hobby, it's endemic to humanity. And yes, it sucks.

            [–]UncleMeat 6ポイント7ポイント  (1子コメント)

            But, as a subculture, it's possible to do better. The goal shouldn't be to be just as shitty as the rest of the world when it comes to these things. The goal should be that this subculture is inviting and safe for everybody. "The rest of the world is shit" is not an excuse to stop policing ourselves.

            [–]overthemountainKemet 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

            That's not the point - the point is that I'm tired of seeing this blamed on "gamer culture" when it's not unique to gamers. Can we do better? Sure - and we should strive to. I don't believe that "Tabletop Gaming has a White Male Terrorism Problem", however. I believe the culture of harassment is pervasive and while this niche may reflect the culture at large that doesn't make it a problem unique to us and trying to target and attack it that way is disingenuous to all involved. Part of fixing the problem needs to be acknowledging that it does run through our culture as a whole and is not just some problem that gamers have managed to cultivate even if we have our own manifestation of the problem.

            [–]OutlierJoeJOIN THE KANBAN REVOLUTION! 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

            Really, the summary of it is this:

            Yes, there is a problem within board gamers.

            And there is a problem with most other cultures.

            But we can only try to have an impact within the cultures we are a part of.

            As a person, we can contribute to improving all the subcultures we're members of by being aware of the different forms sexism can be conducted, and know how to counter them when it happens. We then make a little contribution to every group we are a part of.

            As an aggregation of board gamers, we can all contribute to improving the subculture of board gaming by being aware of the different forms sexism can be conducted, and know how to counter them when it happens. Together, we can make a significant contribution to the group we all share.

            [–]captainraffiLifetime Ledgerman 19ポイント20ポイント  (4子コメント)

            Let's all make efforts to look out for each other in all aspects of our lives.

            I can't argue with that. I also can't affect the culture in comic books, motorcycle riding clubs, video games, vaping, football, or any other sub-community of people where these problems exist. I can affect the culture and small scale society of the circles where I live and hang out. None of us can change society at large, but we can make a dent by focusing on the places we hang out.

            A boardgamer was targeted by a boardgamer because she frequented a boardgaming subreddit and was giving away boardgames to other boardgamers. This instance is a boardgaming problem, even if there are other instances where this happens in other hobbies or cultures.

            [–]overthemountainKemet 8ポイント9ポイント  (3子コメント)

            I guess I see it more as a woman was targeted by a man because she had accumulated a modicum of fame and attention. That's not to try and justify it at all, by the way. It's only to point out that the specific circumstances are mostly irrelevant - this stuff happens all the time regardless of the backgrounds. I think that's important to note.

            It's not like we can solve this problem for boardgames while the rest of society continues on. It doesn't exist in a vacuum. It's not self contained. Yes, let's effect it where we can, but let's also realize that this is a problem bigger than our own little niche.

            [–]captainraffiLifetime Ledgerman 4ポイント5ポイント  (2子コメント)

            Yes, let's effect it where we can, but let's also realize that this is a problem bigger than our own little niche.

            Of course, but we can make a stand and try to push it as far away from our hobby, as much as possible. Do I think we can eliminate all of this stuff from our hobby while it still exists in society at large? No. But I think we can take steps and make drastic improvements. The SCUBA club I used to belong to had far better representation than my game store, even though the rest of society wasn't different. Since I don't think there is anything in the extra X chromosome that would make SCUBA more popular than gaming, I look at the community to see if there is something happening.

            [–]overthemountainKemet 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

            Yea, I think mostly we are on the same page. I'm more trying to address those who act as if this is some problem specific to boardgamers or gamers in general. I'm all for using specific tactics in specific situations as long as we can also acknowledge the greater issue as well.

            コメントをもっと表示する (1 返事)

              [–]DrugCrazedCheating is mandatory [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

              I think that argument is unhelpful myself. What you're essentially saying is "It's not our fault, it's society's fault". That has an incidental effect of people thinking "Well it's nothing to do with me or my group, it happens outside of gaming". Of course, not everyone thinks that but some people do...

              [–]timotabI have the three of clouds! 45ポイント46ポイント  (65子コメント)

              What really makes me mad about this is that I have no doubt that had /u/dambedani been male, or used a male persona, no-one would have gone visiting.

              [–]dkl415Seven Wonders 18ポイント19ポイント  (0子コメント)

              Or heck, not identified gender at all (since most people would assume she was male).

              Sigh.

              [–]TribalDancerAddicted to Co-op 8ポイント9ポイント  (0子コメント)

              I agree with you. This particular sycophant/fandom stalker thing tends to happen to women far more often than men. Yes, doxxing happens across lines, but this particular threat type is largely to women by men. Scary as shit.

              [–]GreatGonzoWar Of The Ring 9ポイント10ポイント  (38子コメント)

              I don't think that is quite correct. There are plenty of people, male and female, that have been doxxed even on reddit, and as a result those victims have had to change address, change phones, change jobs, ect. A good example would be Scooby who was the most amazing guy and very active in the bodybuilding subs, but had to move and shut down his account after some bad things happened.

              I hate the fact that creeps like this always seem to target the nicest people. Its like they are actively trying to make the world a darker place.

              [–]BlueSapphyreTrajan 27ポイント28ポイント  (0子コメント)

              And don't forget about David Vonderhaar who got death threats for nerfing a sniper rifle. Or Twitch steamer Joshua Peters who had SWAT called on him.

              Everyone is susceptible to harassment. But those were not because they were male. Whereas females are usually harassed because they're female.

              [–]sigma83"The world changed. Crime did not." 40ポイント41ポイント  (36子コメント)

              I am a dude who has received online threats and made to feel unsafe on reddit. I'm not denying it happens to all genders, but it happens way more disproportionately to women, and (this is the important part) men never get harassed because of their gender.

              How many women reading this specifically did not have a feminine username, or use a gender neutral one when gaming? How many women reading this do not reveal themselves as female online?

              This is a fear that men simply do not have.

              [–]notnotnoveltyaccountWombat Rescue 8ポイント9ポイント  (0子コメント)

              I am a dude who has received online threats and made to feel unsafe on reddit.

              Me too. I was actually concerned about an unstable individual seeking me out at a board game conference simply because I enforced rules this user disagreed with. It made me much more wary about reddit and is one of the reasons I don't post nearly as much as I used to.

              [–]phil_s_steinThe Canso Can Opener 17ポイント18ポイント  (28子コメント)

              men never get harassed because of their gender

              I wouldn't use absolutes like this. They are hardly ever true and cloud the discussion.

              edit: Note that I'm not making an argument about the content, just that stating the argument is an absolute and thus will generate useless arguments about the absolute statement. Someone will pop up and say "that's not true!!!!". When having a nuanced discussion, don't use absolutes. It gives an opening for someone to derail the thread and the topic.

              [–]TrustFriendComputer -5ポイント-4ポイント  (27子コメント)

              So true!

              #NotAllMen #FightSexismAgainstMen #PedanticLivesMatter #PowerfulAlly

              [–]phil_s_steinThe Canso Can Opener 3ポイント4ポイント  (26子コメント)

              I'm not sure if you're joking or not.

              I was not commenting on the content, but the fact that it was an absolute. Some will read it and have an immediate knee-jerk "that's not true!" reaction and post, thus derailing the conversation.

              [–]monopandaKeep Rolling, Rolling, Rolling... What? -2ポイント-1ポイント  (0子コメント)

              Only sith deal in absolutes.

              [–]monopandaKeep Rolling, Rolling, Rolling... What? -4ポイント-3ポイント  (3子コメント)

              but it happens way more disproportionately to women

              http://www.pewinternet.org/2014/10/22/online-harassment/

              [–]captainraffiLifetime Ledgerman 13ポイント14ポイント  (2子コメント)

              If you're going to post this in multiple places I'll post my response in multiple places as well:

              From your link:

              Young women, those 18-24, experience certain severe types of harassment at disproportionately high levels: 26% of these young women have been stalked online, and 25% were the target of online sexual harassment. In addition, they do not escape the heightened rates of physical threats and sustained harassment common to their male peers and young people in general. Overall, men are somewhat more likely than women to experience at least one of the elements of online harassment, 44% vs. 37%.

              Seems to me that the "severe harassment" is more one sided. So while overall it may be more even or tilt towards men, the shitties of it looks pretty one-sided to me.

              [–]monopandaKeep Rolling, Rolling, Rolling... What? -1ポイント0ポイント  (1子コメント)

              Well - to be fair they were different threads directed a different people making similar arguments.

              I would totally agree based on the source I posted that women receive in that study more "severe" types of harassment in the regards that they're more sexually charged, which is likely a product of women in our culture being seen and susceptible to being worried about their sexual safety and thus being a prime topic for those who are doing the harassment. Although the point in rebutting the statement that it happens disproportionately to women is false still stands.

              [–]labcoat_samurai 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

              Although the point in rebutting the statement that it happens disproportionately to women is false still stands.

              I guess it depends on what you consider harassment. I think it trivializes the experiences of women who have been stalked and sexually assaulted to, essentially, reply with "Yeah, but men get called names a lot"

              Also, let's not forget the context of this discussion, which is a woman being doxxed, tracked down to her place of business and then harassed face to face. The argument was then about whether this happens more often to men or women, and you posted a link that reinforces the conclusion that it happens more often to women.

              [–]TribalDancerAddicted to Co-op -5ポイント-4ポイント  (0子コメント)

              Thank you so much. This was turning into an #allgamersmatter situation.

              Instead it should be clearly stated: #yessallwomen

              [–]GreatGonzoWar Of The Ring -5ポイント-4ポイント  (0子コメント)

              Absolutely, agree with you 100%. Whenever something like this happens though people always jump on the minority bandwagon. Sexism, racism, language(in canada, there is tension between french and english), ect. and I will always make the argument that we don't know enough to declare it another example of _____ism.

              I always think its important to reserve judgement until facts are known if we want to consider ourselves a reasonable society.

              [–][削除されました]  (23子コメント)

              [deleted]

                [–]TrustFriendComputer 15ポイント16ポイント  (18子コメント)

                There are bad people. It's not a gaming community issue. It's not a gender issue. It's not a reddit issue. There are bad people in the world and they suck.

                While bad things happen to people online because bad people are online, there's really no question that people disproportionately target certain groups. Saying "it happens equally" clouds the issue because it's simply not true. It happens disproportionately and it happens in a way that targets people - women, minorities, LGBT people.

                Like, as an analogy, you could get murdered in Detroit, and you could get murdered in Sweden. Murders happen in both places. But, statistically speaking, you're a lot more likely to get murdered in Detroit, and there are reasons for that. Saying "murders happen everywhere" covers up the reasons murders happen in Detroit, and obscure real issues.

                Does this make sense?

                [–][削除されました]  (3子コメント)

                [removed]

                  [–]sigma83"The world changed. Crime did not."[M] 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

                  Removed for violation of Rule 1.

                  [–]Danno558Terra Mystica -8ポイント-7ポイント  (1子コメント)

                  That was un-civil?

                  Okay... glad to see you are remaining unbiased on this issue.

                  [–]Epsilon_ballsHansa Solo[S,M] 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

                  Yes. It violates civility on the forum for several reasons:

                  1. Unnecessary aggression, demeaning, and insulting.

                  2. Dismisses other people's opinions and experiences.

                  [–][削除されました]  (10子コメント)

                  [deleted]

                    [–]TrustFriendComputer 10ポイント11ポイント  (2子コメント)

                    Is there anything normal, well adjusted people can do to change that? Probably not.

                    We can limit the number with better mental health treatment and things like that, but the targets aren't going to change. Bad people are bad people, and they are always going to go after the 'easier' victim.

                    Then why do some countries have dramatically higher occurrences of rapists, murderers, and other 'bad people'? In Japan train groping occurs so frequently they have women-only train cars to combat it, in Spain it would be virtually unthinkable. Murder and rape statistics vary wildly. Sexual harassment can veer from regular occurrence to unheard of.

                    See, "bad people" and "bad things" don't arise in a vacuum. That's a form of mythology that's grown up. Certain attitudes, certain beliefs, certain cultures can encourage or discourage these people. There's a blog out there about running a board gaming store and employee theft, where he paraphrases an old piece of wisdom - 10% of the people you might employ will never steal from you - you could turn off the security cameras, delete the sales logs, open the cash register, and go take a trip to Portland and they'll close up and go home. 10% of people are looking for a way to steal from you, they're going to try no matter what. The 80% in the middle might steal from you, if they're in the right circumstances (the old hypothetical - suppose you had a button that if you pressed it would make $1000 appear in your hand. It would vanish from someone's bank account and be utterly untraceable. How often would you press it?)

                    We can accept with theft that there are things we can do to encourage or deter theft. We do them all the time. We encounter them all the time. But when it comes to sexual assault, rape, stalking, we think that these occur regardless of what we do or don't do?

                    That right there encourages the "bad people". If it's inevitable they'll act that way no matter what anyone does then why stop themselves? They're just the sort of people who would do that.

                    [–]scott-cTwilight Struggle 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

                    in Spain it would be virtually unthinkable

                    I'm glad to hear that has changed...it was fairly common in the 90s.

                    [–]Chronoblivion 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

                    In Japan train groping occurs so frequently they have women-only train cars to combat it

                    While I wouldn't be surprised to find out this is especially prevalent in Japan, I'm wondering if that's actually true or just perceived to be true. They created a whole subgenre of pornography about train groping; does that contribute to the perception that it's a widespread problem, or does it actually contribute to the problem by creating a new fantasy to be fulfilled? I can see it going either way. Furthermore, what I understand of Japanese culture is that people are generally expected not to make a scene. A woman being discretely groped is more likely to silently endure it and complain later than to draw attention to herself by slapping the guy or telling him off. The existence of women-only cars could be an indication that the problem really is more prevalent, but it could just as easily be a way of providing a way to "fight back" to people who don't have the cultural means to do so rather than being an indication the problem is more common there.

                    [–]sigma83"The world changed. Crime did not." 8ポイント9ポイント  (6子コメント)

                    Is there anything normal, well adjusted people can do to change that?

                    Speak up against it. Call it out. Tell people that this shit is not okay. Do not encourage 'jokes' or 'it's just harmless' or 'Bob's just like that.'

                    That is what 'normal' people have to do. That is the responsibility of normal people. This is our community. Step up for it.

                    [–][削除されました]  (5子コメント)

                    [deleted]

                      [–]captainraffiLifetime Ledgerman 6ポイント7ポイント  (4子コメント)

                      they get proper treatment for whatever issues they have.

                      That's only true if there is an actual medical condition involved. That often is not the case, and in fact people with mental illnesses are more likely to be victims than perpetrators. There are plenty of bad people doing bad things that don't get called out, who do not have some sort of medically treatable issue.

                      [–]BlueSapphyreTrajan 0ポイント1ポイント  (3子コメント)

                      There are plenty of bad people doing bad things that don't get called out, who do not have some sort of medically treatable issue.

                      I've tried to stay out of the discussion on mental health, because it's something that hits really close to home. I have my minor in Psychology specializing in Human Development. The boldness/uninhibited actions along with antisocial behavior leads me to believe that these types of people are sociopaths or psychopaths. Or they have some kind of personality disorder like histrionic, narcissistic, antisocial, or borderline. I don't believe that there exists bad people without some underlying cause.

                      [–]TrustFriendComputer -1ポイント0ポイント  (2子コメント)

                      There are mentally ill criminals. But there are those who suffer no distress from their lack of empathy, who can function perfectly well in society, who could act without hurting others. They just choose not to.

                      We have a word for pleasure derived from other people's suffering - schadenfreude. And who doesn't at least get a little warm and fuzzy when the person talking smack about how good they are at 7 Wonders comes in dead last or the guy boasting about how smart he is has his project break in front of the class? I can't see calling that a mental illness.

                      There are those who feel the same joy when they see someone in actual pain, who don't see any problems just taking what they want, who feel pride at their actions. Mentally ill? I dunno. Can you cure that some way? Can you implant empathy?

                      I think there's a few people who are just plain evil. And I think they seek out and manufacture social structures and situations where they can just do as they want.

                      [–]monopandaKeep Rolling, Rolling, Rolling... What? -4ポイント-3ポイント  (2子コメント)

                      Saying "it happens equally" clouds the issue because it's simply not true. It happens disproportionately and it happens in a way that targets people - women, minorities, LGBT people.

                      http://www.pewinternet.org/2014/10/22/online-harassment/

                      While there are groups that are targeted BECAUSE of minority groups online harassment is not one sided. At all.

                      [–]captainraffiLifetime Ledgerman 5ポイント6ポイント  (1子コメント)

                      From your link:

                      Young women, those 18-24, experience certain severe types of harassment at disproportionately high levels: 26% of these young women have been stalked online, and 25% were the target of online sexual harassment. In addition, they do not escape the heightened rates of physical threats and sustained harassment common to their male peers and young people in general. Overall, men are somewhat more likely than women to experience at least one of the elements of online harassment, 44% vs. 37%.

                      Seems to me that the "severe harassment" is more one sided. So while overall it may be more even or tilt towards men, the shitties of it looks pretty one-sided to me.

                      [–]monopandaKeep Rolling, Rolling, Rolling... What? -3ポイント-2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                      I would totally agree based on the source I posted that women receive in that study more "severe" types of harassment in the regards that they're more sexually charged, which is likely a product of women in our culture being seen and susceptible to being worried about their sexual safety and thus being a prime topic for those who are doing the harassment. Although the point in rebutting the statement that it happens disproportionately to women is false still stands.

                      [–]timotabI have the three of clouds! 11ポイント12ポイント  (1子コメント)

                      I'm not implying that at all. I'm well aware that men get threatened. However, I generally feel that that's in response to some disagreed-with action, such as being banned from a forum. /u/dambedani had done nothing but be generous, and I strongly feel that had a man been just as generous it would be exceedingly unlikely that anyone would have threatened such a man in the same way.

                      [–]FigMcLargeHuge 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

                      I am willing to put money on it that it all stemmed from when she posted the picture of herself loading the games. She took it down pretty quickly, but once it's posted you know how that goes on the internet, it can never be truly deleted. It's a real shame because she really went out of her way to do something nice for people.

                      [–]SegaTapeFelicior Augusto, melior Traiano 8ポイント9ポイント  (1子コメント)

                      Men do get threatened and doxxed. But I don't think men ever have to worry about things like revealing their gender or getting a lunatic showing up at their work just for posting a picture of themselves online.

                      A guy got mad at you and doxxed you, and that is awful. But /u/dambedani got harassed and stalked for being a woman on the internet that was doing nice things for strangers. That is fucked up beyond belief, and pretending that it's not related to her gender or that there are no gender issues within this and every gaming community is not going to fix anything.

                      [–]brannanaGo 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

                      Totally agree, but just want to emphasize the difference here. On one hand, you've got somebody who posts your home address and types in the post "I'm gonna kill you". That's bad, and scary, and uncool.

                      But what happened here was that the guy showed up in person at her place of work, had her home address, and got aggressive with her. That's a whole new level of terrible. That's just a couple bucks spent on a knife away from an actual rape, murder, or something equally unpleasant.

                      That's something I think gets lost in these discussions about "online harassment". There's a point where the harassment moves from online to the physical world, and I'd like to see the statistics on how often that happens.

                      [–]flyliceplickShill for Big Cardboard. 18ポイント19ポイント  (2子コメント)

                      I'm counting down to "It probably didn't happen, or she's exaggerating, and besides even if it did happen, it's nothing to do with me, after all I didn't do it, did I? Isolated loner, wasn't it, and not a problem in the hobby and there's nothing to be done about it."

                      Unbelievable that someone would do it in the first place. Doubly alien to me that people make excuses for it.

                      [–]TrustFriendComputer 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                      Got deleted, but yeah. A couple. Fortunately hasn't taken over the discussion.

                      コメントをもっと表示する (1 返事)

                        [–]jalkazar 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

                        Hopefully this can at least function as a wake up call for a lot of people within the community. You may not harass yourself, but it's important to work for inclusion and make a stand against harassment regardless.

                        [–]dictionary_hat_r4ck 10ポイント11ポイント  (0子コメント)

                        Wow, I feel awful for /u/dambedani.

                        There's gotta be a better way to do giveaways because they really get inspiring for folks. I, for one, didn't receive a game, but did donate to a local Children's charity and wrote "Money intended for board games for Kids" in the note. It wasn't much, but she inspired me to do so.

                        I have other ideas that have stemmed from her generosity.

                        [–]DaboGirlPandemic Legacy Fangirl 9ポイント10ポイント  (0子コメント)

                        I just want to say, /u/dambedani, I hope you are doing ok and that this creep never bothers you again. You are such a wonderful person. You contributed amazing things to this community... Not just games, but positivity and good will. You did not deserve to be treated like this. I don't know all the details surrounding your experience, but I know from my own personal experience that it is hard to get past stuff like this. I've been there. Please feel free to reach out to me via throwaway or whatever if you'd like to talk.

                        [–]beanburrrito 8ポイント9ポイント  (4子コメント)

                        As somebody who is an occasional lurker of this sub, who is pancake and why is he/she/it a whore? Also that's horrible what happened to /u/dambedani :/

                        [–]captainraffiLifetime Ledgerman 22ポイント23ポイント  (3子コメント)

                        Pancake is her cat. She usually posted pictures of Pancake being sexy in her giveaway posts; Pancake has a bit of a fan club.

                        [–]beanburrrito 4ポイント5ポイント  (1子コメント)

                        Ahhh that makes sense, in a Reddit sort of way. Thanks!

                        [–]zelynProbably not a cylon 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

                        I'm one of those Pancake fan club members, having gone so far as creating silly images

                        I'm really pissed this happened to /u/dambedani. Her posts actually got me to come out of lurking and start posting in the community more. I even started trying to think of ways that I could give back to the community eventually.

                        [–]gamerthrowaway_ARVN in the daytime, VC at night 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

                        Gotcha, I also didn't know. Thank you.

                        [–]notnotnoveltyaccountWombat Rescue 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

                        Thanks for taking over for head mod, Epsi! The previous mods, myself included, all left around the same time and I'm glad you stepped up to steady the ship. You're doing a great job!

                        [–]Thefakewilwheaton 53ポイント54ポイント  (15子コメント)

                        I feel I need to say something about /u/dambedani. Awhile back she did a giveaway, which I had entered and then it got closed. I didn't receive a game, and was salty about it. She offered to send a random redditor a game on a thread a week later or something and I attacked her for it.

                        I felt entitled and I was pissed that this guy didn't even enter into a giveaway, but mentioned in a comment that he wanted some game, and she just gave it to him.

                        I was pissed and said some horrible shit to her. You know what she did after I did that? She sent me a fucking game.

                        I was so ashamed and I was a pansy and never even thanked her for it because I was so ashamed of myself. So if you're out there /u/dambedani, I'm sorry, thank you, and you're such a good person compared to people like me.

                        [–]enemyoftheworldOrleans 41ポイント42ポイント  (0子コメント)

                        For a couple years after we moved in my neighbor mowed a patch of lawn between us that was technically my property but much easier for him to access. I was appreciative, but it took him an extra 30 seconds for something that would take me 5 minutes.

                        OK, then last summer he hired a lawn care company to mow on a regular schedule and they left that patch! I was so annoyed. I grumbled to my wife about my neighbor who could simply ask the company to take care of that little patch, right? After about a month of this, my neighbor came out while I was mowing and handed me a 6-pack of my favorite beer. He explained that he asked the lawn care company to mow that part, but they couldn't, due to liability issues, use their equipment on someone else's property.

                        TL;DR: My neighbor gave me beer because I have to mow my own goddamned lawn. I'm a jackass.

                        [–]annatheorc 25ポイント26ポイント  (0子コメント)

                        I want to give you a "good job for being a good human" fist bump. It takes courage to reflect on one actions, and to really appreciate that we did something wrong. It takes even more courage to reach out and communicate this with others. You have my respect.

                        [–]SynanthropicMyrmes 8ポイント9ポイント  (12子コメント)

                        Interesting - question: what made you feel salty about it? Do you mind doing some reflection for me? I'm not judging at all and not looking for a thesis; your answer could be "I'm unsure" or just a sentence or something glib. But just wondering - as someone who runs giveaways as well (not anywhere near that level but still fairly intense and all handmade items, which takes time and money and energy to create), I've gotten a few salty PMs and wonder why some people, who aren't even paying for something, feel that entitlement. Of course, this answer will change from person to person, but I suspect there are some commonalities (e.g., "I really wanted that", "I had my name in first", "I'm unsure", etc). No worries if you write this comment off as well, but thought I'd ask. I'm still going through PMs for my last giveaway and hope people understand that these handmade things take time, especially when you have a full-time job, etc. There's no helpers doing anything and it is interesting the idea of a human feeling angry over something like this. Thanks in advance for any time you may give to this! I can't speak for her, but I know sometimes there's someone just at the right place at the right time with these things and they just get offered something. Either way, again, zero judgement here, friend - truly just wanting to pick your brain!

                        [–]murgsDominion 12ポイント13ポイント  (0子コメント)

                        An interesting part of a comedy piece (well it was a comedian, but it wasn't comedy per se) I saw nicely reflects on how quickly we work with a hypothetical state: (quotes are all the comedian, 'you' the whole audience)

                        • guy asks for a volunteer
                        • a few people raise their hands
                        • guy picks one, gives him 50€
                        • "so what do you feel, are you sad you didn't put your hand up, are you annoyed that he was picked instead of you? do you feel negative towards him, for something I did and he had no part of?"
                        • ...
                        • "can I see the note, again"
                        • takes note
                        • "sorry that was just to make a point, you can't have it after all"
                        • "and how does that make you feel now, suddenly you feel sorry for him, even though he is in the exact same situation as 5 minutes ago, and in the same situation as all of you"
                        • ...
                        • he proceeds to then burn the 50€ note
                        • "and now you are thinking what a waste this is and it would have made much more sense to just leave it with that poor person. But if at an end of a concert all those fireworks go of, that is exactly the same, burning of something that costs money. And that costs a lot more, so I think these 50€ worth of 'fireworks' are worth it to give you something to think about."

                        [–]FunWithFLGSThunderstone Advance 2ポイント3ポイント  (6子コメント)

                        Interesting - question: what made you feel salty about it?

                        I can't speak for everyone, but I felt a little stab when I wasn't included in the first giveaway. It's silly, it's selfish, but it's there.

                        Disappointment at not being included is kind of a common thread in my life so I guess it just hit a nerve. Not at all dambedani's fault, and I didn't PM her anything about it - but the feeling was there. That might be what contributes to some people's "saltiness."1

                        (By the way, this sub is the first time I've encountered "salty" in reference to temper. The More You KnowTM )

                        [–]captainraffiLifetime Ledgerman 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

                        Now that you know, it opens up a world of memes

                        [–]SynanthropicMyrmes 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                        Thanks for the reply! I can't speak for her, but I know by and large I've only had good interactions with people, but just a few people couldn't hold back I suppose and I was wondering people's reflections/thoughts on those things at this point.

                        [–]ExpersHack City 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

                        /r/boardgames introduced the term to me as well in this post with this video

                        The whole video is great, but I linked directly to the relevant part.

                        [–]GrunherzThe Emperor Protects 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

                        I'm not sure where salty started, but it's widely used in the MtG and competitive video game community (stuff like, DOTA, League of Legends etc.). Twitch.tv even has a little salt shaker emoji in their chat

                        [–]TheCatWhoLikesFish 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

                        I believe it is in relation to tears, as in they are salty

                        [–]TrustFriendComputer 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

                        Salty dog is an old term used to refer to sailors. That then moved on, and from the navy, a "salty sailor" is one who is old. Since old sailors aren't exactly known for their decorum, and are known for their griping, well...

                        The term is old enough that you could have probably said it a hundred years ago in a lot of bars and gotten a laugh out of people who would have known exactly what you meant.

                        [–]Thefakewilwheaton 5ポイント6ポイント  (3子コメント)

                        I'm not sure. The best I can describe it: she got my hopes up about the game and was really excited, then it was a huge let down. And I got angry. I kept thinking "how hard is it to send out just one more game?" "i bet you she doesn't even send out games" it was stupid and childish.

                        When I got my game in the mail, I went back on her posts and updates where she gave some of the stats and really thought about it. The game she sent me was $40. if only ten people get a game that's 400 right there, not including shipping, even more if they were international.

                        I don't think I wrapped my head around the work, time, and money it takes the first time because I was just being selfish. It's like when you play the Lottery, and think of all the stuff you're going to buy when you win. Then you don't, and you say stuff like "oh, they make it so no one can win" or "it's stupid anyway".

                        [–]SynanthropicMyrmes 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

                        Beautiful - thank you for the reply. I know everyone's responses will be totally unique to their own life and experiences, but I was just interested in your own thought process, now, in reflection. It's a huge amount of time, just to get back to all the PMs, let alone the actual work. Thank you again for your reply, friend.

                        [–][削除されました]  (1子コメント)

                        [removed]

                          [–]soupnessProfessional Potion Tester[M] 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

                          Removed.

                          [–]HeavyCardboard 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

                          Good stuff. Thx for what y'all do here.

                          [–]ExpersHack City 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

                          What happened to /u/dambedani is unfortunate and inexcusable, but I hope that she continues to be a part of the community going forward - not in the capacity that she was before this, but as a participant, anonymously joining in the discussions and camaraderie of this sub as well as the hobby as a whole.

                          I hope that she is well and the stress of this event is short lived because, as someone I only know over the internet but have come to respect as a kind and thoughtful individual, she deserves much better.

                          [–]Awesomenimity 3ポイント4ポイント  (3子コメント)

                          Good job! It's hard finding good and active mods. You're a big part of the community, thank you!

                          [–]DaboGirlPandemic Legacy Fangirl 4ポイント5ポイント  (1子コメント)

                          This is the first community I've ever modded for and it is DAMN DIFFICULT. I can't even imagine how people mod lots of communities. We're lucky that we have a community filled with lots of awesome people - that makes our jobs a little easier. :-)

                          [–]Awesomenimity 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

                          It's only hard if you do a good job, so yay for us! ;)

                          [–]robotmeal@RobotMeal 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

                          Just echoing the same sentiment. Big thanks to the mods for all that they do! Happy to be a part of a positive community.

                          [–]Icil 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

                          It sucks /u/dambedani had to quit, I hope once she has recovered from this she'll come back to trusting in the good of our community.

                          If she is returning donations the least we could do is funnel them into a new giveaway in her honor.

                          [–]KneefResident Deckbuilding Junkie 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

                          No excuse for crap like what happened to /u/dambedani. I know most of y'all feel (as I do) like people like that don't represent the kind of people you game with, but let's just resolve that when we do meet guys like that (because they're definitely out there), that we call them out on it.

                          [–]clavalle 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

                          Just want to say great job mod team! Even as this sub grows it continues to be a great overall community with a friendly atmosphere and a minimum of political BS.

                          Thank you!

                          [–]Woo-Hoo1"Play is an essential component of wholehearted living." 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

                          Wow. I hadn't heard about the dambedani account or the crazy stalker guy. Just wow.

                          The mistreatment of women and children pisses me off to no end. I pray she remains safe, and I'm ever-grateful for her contributions to the community, providing joy and laughter to people who need more joy and laughter in life.

                          A donation to a local cancer center in her honor will happen soon. I believe a local hospital is nearing the completion of a new cancer ward. Once it's completed, I hope to ensure they have something available for their gaming enjoyment.

                          Thanks dambedani! Stay safe!

                          [–]NowOrNever88https://boardgamegeek.com/user/NowOrNever88 3ポイント4ポイント  (9子コメント)

                          I was about to nominate myself to be a mod, then I hesitated cause I realized the power would probably corrupt me, since my willpower is low.

                          [–]charlestheelEarth Reborn 4ポイント5ポイント  (8子コメント)

                          You need to level up.

                          [–]Epsilon_ballsHansa Solo[S] 9ポイント10ポイント  (3子コメント)

                          Sorry, RPGs are off topic. Please use a different phrase. OR ELSE.

                          [–]charlestheelEarth Reborn 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

                          I apologize for your lack of knowledge but many board games feature characters that level up.

                          [–]OutlierJoeJOIN THE KANBAN REVOLUTION! 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

                          Speak Euro:

                          "It's like in Caverna when your worker gets a better weapon strength."

                          [–]NowOrNever89 1ポイント2ポイント  (3子コメント)

                          ok!

                          [–]AnnowmeGangs of New Hampshire 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

                          I see what you did there.

                          [–]NowOrNever88https://boardgamegeek.com/user/NowOrNever88 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

                          The heck? O.o

                          [–]lazy_blazey 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                          To /u/dambedani since I have no idea how to contact her: I'm so sorry this happened to you! I'm also sorry to hear that the giveaways have to end, one of the best things about it was the level of trust involved in the community. All it takes is one certifiable jackass to break that trust. I want to thank you regardless for being inspiring, and I would like for you to know that because of you and your kindness I'll be donating some new games to a local hospital (I tried donating some of my old games, but they have strict infection control guidelines and won't accept used games at all). So thank you for all you've done, you have made the community a better place.

                          [–]BasileasAndroid Netrunner 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                          I wish I could say I'm surprised that dambedani encountered misfortune stemming from her good deeds, but I can't. I guess I'm pretty disillusioned with people. I'm glad this issue was raised though so I can have my radar up when I am in gaming situations with new people, and can be more ready to make corrections to the social dynamic. I'm lucky to have a good regular group though where it is pretty PG.

                          [–]EricBinNYCOnly rolls hearts when in Tokyo 1ポイント2ポイント  (3子コメント)

                          /u/Epsilon_balls, do you have a link to any of the discussions spawned by that sexual harassment and assault post? I read the post on Tumblr, but I'd like to see how the community reacted. I don't know how I missed this when it happened, but I searched and couldn't find anything. Also, it's quite sad how well that post mirrors what happened with /u/dambedani.

                          [–]Epsilon_ballsHansa Solo[S,M] 5ポイント6ポイント  (1子コメント)

                          Here was the original post. I initially ended up locking and removing the thread as it got far too heated. I've restored the post since then, as it's an important thread that happened, and keeping it removed looks like we're burying our heads in the sand.

                          This article was posted later, and had more civil discussion and was left up for discussion.

                          [–]EricBinNYCOnly rolls hearts when in Tokyo 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

                          Thanks!

                          [–]captainraffiLifetime Ledgerman 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                          I believe it was eventually removed. I think it's a big part of why there is clarification on the civility rules.

                          [–]kaishichan 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

                          to piggy back on this comment thread, I'm sorry to hear this happened to you /u/dambedani, but glad to hear you are okay! If you must lurk please continue to lurk! Otherwise if you do choose to make an appearance I hope you can do so comfortably!

                          [–]kuratowski 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

                          Anyone else first thought this post was about a new boardgame called "Moderation, Rules, and Civility"...

                          [–]cuddIefish 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                          I'd buy a board game that teaches people how to be good humans :p

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