(cache) Comrade_BenderがPolish communists sentenced for propagating communismについて記入したコメント

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Polish communists sentenced for propagating communism (21centurymanifesto.wordpress.com)

iFlashiefeminist が 19時間前投稿 - stickied post

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[–]Comrade_BenderAll my heroes kill capitalists 81ポイント82ポイント83ポイント 18時間前 (52子コメント)

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[+]TheArmenianCommunistПоехали! スコアが基準値未満のコメント-14ポイント-13ポイント-12ポイント 15時間前 (49子コメント)

[–]Fot-teAnarchist 46ポイント47ポイント48ポイント 14時間前 (10子コメント)

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[–]TheArmenianCommunistПоехали! 5ポイント6ポイント7ポイント 14時間前 (6子コメント)

Except stopping fascism is an obligation, not a free pass to oppress people. Especially as it was in the USSR's best interests to stop the Nazis anyway.

Poles were not oppressed as an ethnic group during the communist era, if that's what you're getting at. Workers' states such as the USSR, while they had many flaws, were more progressive than the capitalist states and did much more liberating than they did oppressing.

Is the exact same argument used about European colonialism in Africa right?

Except its actually true in this case. Socialist states don't have a capacity to conduct imperialism. The socialist states of Eastern Europe, while I think they deserved more political independence, had mutually beneficial relationships with the USSR. It was only really the DDR that got shafted by war reparations, which the USSR carried out by removing their industrial machinery and transporting it back to the Soviet Union, which is partially justified anyway.

Imperialism is an unbalanced, capitalist relationship whereupon one country exerts economic dominance over another, in order to export capital, expand capitalist markets, and acquire super-profits. At no point in its history did the USSR exhibit these relationships with other countries, imo. Although I'm sure Hoxhaist and MLM comrades will disagree with me.

[–]Fot-teAnarchist 10ポイント11ポイント12ポイント 13時間前 (4子コメント)

[–]TheArmenianCommunistПоехали! 6ポイント7ポイント8ポイント 13時間前 (3子コメント)

They were forced into a union by an invasion, and then kept in it for fifty years.

Wait, you know the Poles had their own country right?

That having a bad culture warrants oppression? Or that economic development (which did happen in many European imperialist targets) warrants oppression?

It had nothing to do with culture, first of all. There is no strong argument for non-Russian cultures being oppressed within the post-Stalin Soviet Union, let alone in the separate socialist states of Eastern Europe. And there was development in colonized countries insofar that it aided the exploiters in exploiting the resources of that imperialized country. The Soviet Union simply aided the Eastern European socialist states in developing their own economies. As far as I know only the DPRK was very greatly dependent on resources from the USSR, and that has its own complicated reasons.

That's not the general definition of imperialism at all. Imperialism is simply one country dominating and controlling another through coercion.

Well, yeah, if you ask a random person for a general definitions of socialism and capitalism, you'll likely get a very incorrect answer. I'm using imperialism as it is understood by socialists, as it was detailed by Lenin.

[–]Fot-teAnarchist 9ポイント10ポイント11ポイント 13時間前 (1子コメント)

Wait, you know the Poles had their own country right?

From your own link: "Satellite state of the Soviet Union"

Poland was not independent, they were a puppet of the USSR. Whether I was correct in using the word union is semantics.

It had nothing to do with culture, first of all.

I'm talking about your argument when you justified the USSR's actions due to Poland's populace's 'semi fascist' views. Akin to European justifications based on Africans' 'savage' views.

And there was development in colonized countries insofar that it aided the exploiters in exploiting the resources of that imperialized country. The Soviet Union simply aided the Eastern European socialist states in developing their own economies.

The point is that bringing technology or a functioning economy is not a justification for oppression.

Well, yeah, if you ask a random person for a general definitions of socialism and capitalism, you'll likely get a very incorrect answer. I'm using imperialism as it is understood by socialists, as it was detailed by Lenin.

Except imperialism is a very old word rooted in Latin, so unlike with our own terms we don't get to decide what it means.

[–]PoblachtObritheThe Vanguard is of the class 6ポイント7ポイント8ポイント 11時間前 (0子コメント)

I'm talking about your argument when you justified the USSR's actions due to Poland's populace's 'semi fascist' views

Not that I'm throwing in with their "side" of the argument here, but Poland prior to World War II was essentially a Fascist regime(As a dictatorship under Józef Piłsudski), remained as such after Piłsudski's death under a pseudo-parliamentary system - annexing parts of Czechoslovakia in alliance with the Nazis in 1938(The same way Poland was split up between the Soviets and Nazis in 39) - its non-communist partisans armed and supported by the government in exile were reactionary nationalists who shot Jews and staged pogroms.

All things considered, Stalinism - as bad as it was - was a marked improvement in the state of affairs if we consider that prior to its imposition Poland was essentially a revanchist, ultranationalist(and anti-communist) dictatorship with imperialist ambitions.

[–]OscarGrey 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 12時間前* (0子コメント)

[–]amerigogreat 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 5時間前 (0子コメント)

[–]TorbjornOskarssonAnarcho-Commie 11ポイント12ポイント13ポイント 14時間前 (3子コメント)

[–]TheArmenianCommunistПоехали! 2ポイント3ポイント4ポイント 14時間前 (2子コメント)

[–]OscarGrey 9ポイント10ポイント11ポイント 12時間前 (0子コメント)

[–]Xdeser2Anarcho-Communism 8ポイント9ポイント10ポイント 12時間前* (2子コメント)

[–]klarken1Space Communism 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 8時間前 (1子コメント)

[–]OscarGrey -3ポイント-2ポイント-1ポイント 14時間前* (30子コメント)

What makes you entitled to deciding how Polish people should feel about the USSR? Edit: NVM y'all convinced me. USSR was a friendly partner to Poland and its people and Red Army did nothing wrong! First Polish postwar elections were definitely not falsified! All the people purged by NKVD had it coming and were reactionary pigs (nevermind that people purged included socialists and anarchists that didn't approve of USSR and Stalin). /s When you finally get your head out of your ass and realize that USSR wasn't a champion of the workers but just another imperialist power, maybe then you might have sliver of a chance of appealing to the people of the former Warsaw Pact. I think that this law is stupid but the cause of it is how horrible the government, army, and intelligence services of USSR were to Polish people. But you're a Soviet nostalgist, so you blame everything on reactionaries, capitalists, NATO, and USA. Enjoy worshipping an imperialistic shithole that's gone for decades and served and continues to serve as a vehicle for Russian chauvinism! I'm sure it will be very productive :)

[–]TheArmenianCommunistПоехали! 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 14時間前 (10子コメント)

[+]OscarGrey スコアが基準値未満のコメント-6ポイント-5ポイント-4ポイント 14時間前 (9子コメント)

[–]TheArmenianCommunistПоехали! 12ポイント13ポイント14ポイント 14時間前 (8子コメント)

Please point out the fascists in Polish government

You really think the ultra-conservative PiS party that is in power right now has no fascist elements? The types that are trying to erase monuments to Soviet soldiers, ban abortion, and are nearly as anticommunist as Nazis in the 30s? There are most certainly many fascists in the Polish government, as there are in Ukraine, Estonia, etc.

And you're wrong Polish people were anti-USSR/Russian during the Cold War, those views were just supressed by the governement. That's how memory of what really happened in Katyń was preserved.

Poland had many counterrevolutionary elements that were supported by western bourgeois state, like the Cursed Soldiers and the bourgeois supported "workers' union" Solidarnosc. But I'm sure the vast majority of people were perfectly happy with having a roof over their head, getting a free education, and getting a job. And on the issue of Katyn, it's irrelevant to the issue. It was a horrible crime, but the fact that the Soviet Union saved Poles from being wiped off the face of the Earth by the Nazis makes up for it.

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[–]SemiHollowCarrotIn what relation do Communists stand to the proletarians? 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 12時間前 (0子コメント)

[–]OscarGrey -3ポイント-2ポイント-1ポイント 12時間前 (2子コメント)

You really think the ultra-conservative PiS party that is in power right now has no fascist elements?

No, because I lived in Poland for ten years and I read the Polish language news. Populist, right-wing, disrespectful of the Polish Constitution? Sure. Fascist? Fuck no.

Poland had many counterrevolutionary elements that were supported by western bourgeois state

This is what I meant by Soviet revisionism. Vast majority of the Polish population supported those "counterrevolutionary elements" and their reputations became rehabilitated as soon as communists lost power.

like the Cursed Soldiers

What's wrong about what cursed soldiers did? They refused to submit to a foreign puppet government.

and the bourgeois supported "workers' union" Solidarnosc

Yeah if only Communist Poland addressed the needs of the workers. But that's just crazy talk, it's not like the state claimed to serve the workers, is it?

But I'm sure the vast majority of people were perfectly happy with having a roof over their head, getting a free education, and getting a job.

Yeah, no shit. It's the lack of freedom of speech, assembly, foreign puppet government, and persecution of "counterrevolutionary elements" that people objected to.

And on the issue of Katyn, it's irrelevant to the issue.

Acknowledging what really happened in Katyń got you labeled a "counterrevolutionary element" and Polish people were force fed the falsified version for decades under threat of the state. You can't just cherrypick only the good things that Soviet Union did to Poland and then act like we're delusional for hating the USSR.

It was a horrible crime, but the fact that the Soviet Union saved Poles from being wiped off the face of the Earth by the Nazis makes up for it.

FFS every thread regarding Poland-USSR relations has this canard. WE DIDN'T FUCKING WANT TO BE IN THE SOVIET BLOC. WE DIDN'T GIVE A SHIT ABOUT REVOLUTION, BOURGEOISIE OR ANY OF THAT BULLSHIT, WE JUST WANTED TO BE A SOVEREIGN, INDEPENDENT COUNTRY.

[–]VoteAnimal2012Sankara 9ポイント10ポイント11ポイント 12時間前 (1子コメント)

[–]OscarGrey 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 12時間前* (0子コメント)

[–]c0mbobreakerAll Power to the Soviets 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 14時間前 (15子コメント)

[–]Fot-teAnarchist 5ポイント6ポイント7ポイント 14時間前 (7子コメント)

[–]c0mbobreakerAll Power to the Soviets 2ポイント3ポイント4ポイント 14時間前* (6子コメント)

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[–]c0mbobreakerAll Power to the Soviets 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 14時間前 (4子コメント)

[–]Fot-teAnarchist 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 13時間前 (3子コメント)

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[–]c0mbobreakerAll Power to the Soviets 9ポイント10ポイント11ポイント 14時間前 (4子コメント)

[–]OscarGrey 5ポイント6ポイント7ポイント 12時間前 (3子コメント)

[–]c0mbobreakerAll Power to the Soviets 3ポイント4ポイント5ポイント 9時間前 (2子コメント)

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[–]onlyordinarymenEgoist Anarchist | Post-Leftist -1ポイント0ポイント1ポイント 9時間前 (1子コメント)

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