上位 200 件のコメント表示する 500

[–]omnichronos 867ポイント868ポイント  (460子コメント)

The fact is, most of us would work to have more money anyway.

[–]SearingEnigma 556ポイント557ポイント  (135子コメント)

More importantly, though, imagine how nice it would be to have businesses sending us advertisements of their benefits and high wages instead of having to grovel for scraps because the labor market is illogically flooded.

[–]abkleinig 373ポイント374ポイント  (120子コメント)

This is the fantasy that I have with basic income -- because the labour force has the means to survive, businesses would need us more than we need them

[–]SpellJenji 182ポイント183ポイント  (101子コメント)

A beautiful idea. Also, I'm sure more than 90% of people would get bored of just sitting at their home all day. I went through a brief period of (drug-free) unemployment and I was losing my mind.

[–]abkleinig 126ポイント127ポイント  (59子コメント)

It's weird that people are taking the 90% thing as factual when it was an off-hand remark

Maybe 90% of people will go smoke pot and play video games, but if 10% of the people go create incredible new products and services and new wealth, that's still a huge net-win

90% is the Worst case scenario, by a great margin. Now, most of the cases presented in this thread are anecdotal so aren't really evidence for or against UBI, truth is it's hard to know what exactly would happen. But I imagine that western humanity as it exists currently; productive people would continue to be productive, and the unproductive could still survive.

That is to say there are countless unproductive (sorry, counter-productive? not sure which would be more correct) people working jobs they hate and are actually doing very little day-to-day in their work place anyway, costing the business money and for a net loss. So let them leave the job they never wanted, and someone who is productive (and perhaps seeking the ability to purchase a so-called "luxury item") can take over. We don't need to punish people for not wanting to work. You can let them still enjoy the comfort of a warm meal and a roof over their heads.

EDIT: a words

[–]katja_72 89ポイント90ポイント  (9子コメント)

There are also a lot of kids, grandparents (or other elderly) and disabled people who need to be cared for. Now, some of those "non-productive" people are dead tired from a combination of a job they don't like (to pay the bills) and trying to care for their family members. With basic income, if they don't have jobs, they can still take care of their kids or their parents or disabled siblings while having a warm meal and a roof over their heads.

There is so much work being done now that people just aren't paid for. Not being employed doesn't mean non-productive (as in not doing anything useful).

[–]SmegmataTheFirst [スコア非表示]  (8子コメント)

Not to mention people might take it upon themselves to undertake civic projects instead of working. If I were unemployed but had a basic income, I might spend my days cleaning up a beach, or volunteer to help at a school, or some other thing that would enrich my community.

Not everybody would, probably not even most - but many would, now that starvation and homelessness isn't what awaits them if they spend too much time helping others instead of themselves.

I think a basic income would make life better for everyone, not just the jobless.

[–]Archsys [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

And that's before people who want to get that book written, or take up painting, or learn a new language, but don't because they're tired...

We'd be better as a society if we didn't have this delusion that it'll all fall apart if every single person doesn't report to their 9-5 hellhole, or worse...

[–]LooksLikeHughJackman [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

I bet a shit ton of us would live that college life we always dreamed of. Just going to college, and having plenty of time to do homework AND socialize, because we don't have to also slave away for 50+ hours a week just to not be homeless. Seriously, only high school kids think college and school in general sucks. Once you get past high school, you realize how much better it is to be at college, being able to just stay there and study and hang out with all your friends and get smarter and get good grades all day, than to work. Or being able to go to class, then go home and all chill at someone's house and slowly get all of your daily homework done, or quickly, and then fucking game out or go out.

That's what I would do. And then I'd finally get to be a huge help to my community by being the engineer I always wanted to be. Instead I work all day then come home and play guitar for an hour to manage my lonely depressing thoughts, and then goto bed. like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dwox2NQgFWw

[–]Charcandrizard 22ポイント23ポイント  (36子コメント)

UBI isn't really about this at all. It makes more sense as a counter to disruptive technology. Soon all cabbies will be out of a job when driverless cars take over. Long haul truckers will also go away. That's loads of jobs gone from a single invention. Companies are already experimenting with automation and robotic technologies. McDonalds is slowly replacing front house staff with automated tellers that do their job better than workers since the machines don't mishear orders when customers punch in what they want. Japan has a hotel staffed by robots. Bear in mind these are shit robots compared to what we will have in 10 to 20 years. There are loads of other examples. The only safe jobs seem to be highly specialised disciplines which make up a small amount of the workforce anyway like lawyers, doctors, pro athletes, pilots, etc.

[–]immerc 18ポイント19ポイント  (25子コメント)

Even doctors and lawyers are having parts of their jobs carved away. Electronic discovery hands over sifting through legal documents to computer algorithms, so they're doing a job that used to be done by the junior lawyers, sifting through mountains of paper.

IBM's Watson was designed for medical diagnosis, which was previously a job done by doctors.

The next 20 years will probably see a decline in the number of doctors or lawyers needed to do the same amount of work, and a streamlining of what they actually need to do vs. what can be handed off to software.

There really are no safe jobs. The most highly paid ones have the biggest target on their heads.

You could even say that computers are replacing athletes and entertainers, since people are spending more time playing video games these days rather than watching movies/TV or sports.

[–]DocScrove 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

Don't forget all the support jobs that are taken out of the mix when those jobs go.

[–]Charcandrizard 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

I could go on for days about all the other jobs lost in support roles as well, but I just wanted to make a succinct point.

[–]skeezyrattytroll [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Long haul truckers will also go away.

As will short haul truckers. As will the greatest majority of the "Mom & Pop" restaurants and gas stations. Some larger ones will survive, but if you don't have drivers then you don't need roadhouses.

The only safe jobs seem to be highly specialised disciplines which make up a small amount of the workforce anyway like lawyers, doctors, pro athletes, pilots, etc.

Pro-athletes probably. Doctors, lawyers, and pilots? Not so fast there. We are already training IBM's Watson to be a cancer specialist and the machine is good at it. We already have 'robots' scanning legal filings and partially processing legal documents to reduce staff attorney time. We're at a point where private companies can launch a rocket to near earth orbit and then land that rocket on a floating barge without a pilot.

I do not think a large part of the world understands what is about to happen technologically.

[–]SpellJenji 30ポイント31ポイント  (4子コメント)

I actually agree with you. I've laughed for years at how many "friends" I have who will post hateful diatribes against a living wage on Facebook WHILE AT WORK. I honestly dgaf- I work for myself and I make more than the minimum- I could smoke pot if I wanted to. I was just pointing out that even if the 90% were true, I doubt it would hold true long term as the novelty of "woohoo sit at home and smoke pot all day" would wear off for many people.

[–]poorspacedreams 8ポイント9ポイント  (11子コメント)

(drug-free)

well, that was your problem right there.

[–]SpellJenji 14ポイント15ポイント  (10子コメント)

It wasn't my only issue (although being high might have made my family less irritating)- but seriously, I do think most people think they'd be happy doing nothing, until they realise how mind-numbingly boring it is long term.

[–]minecraft_ece 24ポイント25ポイント  (9子コメント)

But most people won't "do nothing". They just won't do things that are economically productive, which for some odd reason is the only kind of productive anyone cares about.

[–]Nonuli 21ポイント22ポイント  (7子コメント)

Yeah, sitting round doing nothing all day IS boring.

But playing games, going out, learning new hobbies or reading can last you for years and years maybe even a lifetime.

If people didn't enjoy being unproductive nobody would enjoy the weekends. The "i hate Mondays" meme would not exist etc.

People talk about not being in work like the only thing you can do is sit in an empty box all day.

I could happily play games online forever. Especially with new ones constantly being made.

With no need to work i might even end up trying to expand on my basic programming skills and make my own.

I think a lot of people would find a way to make their hobbies productive for a bit of extra cash or fun.

But its all limited by the fact we need to spend 40 hours a week in a box doing repetitive work.

[–]AluekomentajaArje [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

With no need to work i might even end up trying to expand on my basic programming skills and make my own.

This - to me - is the biggest argument for UBI. Even if people are happy to just sit on their ass and play video games - at some point they will learn something that a) they are interested about and b) someone will pay for them to do. At that point, there's a motivated employee entering the labor force which is a win-win for everyone involved.

[–]fuzzycardboard 10ポイント11ポイント  (1子コメント)

With no need to work i might even end up trying to expand on my basic programming skills and make my own.

...aaand congratulations; you're back in the workforce being economically productive again.

Scenarios like this are exactly why UBI would work, and sum up what this group is saying, in a nutshell. With the financial security of UBI, people are free to pursue their passions. A good portion of the time, that pursuit is going to lead to people staying in (or returning to) the workforce as valued contributors, not freeloaders.

[–]abortionsforall 9ポイント10ポイント  (11子コメント)

Working would need to be as or more enjoyable than low-cost leisure, or there would need to be things people are willing to delay gratification to attain.

I'd guess that if the US currently had a $15,000 basic income, no small few would drop out of the labor force. This would cause a reduction in the supply of labor, particularly focused around the low wage temporary positions found in retail or service industry. Wages for these low end service jobs would increase, increasing the appeal of working. Thus workforce participation rates would drop, then rise, stabilizing at a new balance.

[–]SpellJenji 19ポイント20ポイント  (10子コメント)

$15k is more than a full-time minimum wage job provides, after taxes. By quite a bit. And those people get zero benefits at most jobs. I think you're underestimating how many people are happy to work, they just wish to have a "normal" life in return. Including things like affording a doctor visit when they're ill.

[–]Charcandrizard 14ポイント15ポイント  (9子コメント)

Ya, 15k after taxes is more than one can earn on minimum wage especially when most minimum wage companies engage in creative scheduling to ensure workers are barely below the hours per week for overtime and healthcare. If you work for $7.25 per hour at 40 hours per week you earn $15080 before taxes. This is without taking a single off day or vacation or getting sick. This is especially important to note since minimum wage jobs don't pay you if you take a sick day or a vacation day.

[–]beejamin 2ポイント3ポイント  (7子コメント)

Jesus Christ that's depressing. I only have a rough idea of how much food and shelter USD15k buys you, but I sure as shit would not want to try to survive on it.

[–]tom255 20ポイント21ポイント  (0子コメント)

THIS.

OH LORDY, THIS. ASAP.

[–]ColoniseMars 9ポイント10ポイント  (0子コメント)

But comrade buddy, don't you know that structural unemployment is actually encourages by the people in power because it pushes down wages and thus makes them more money? Its never going to happen because it goes against the interest of the rich in two ways. Tax and higher wages.

[–]rdewalt 99ポイント100ポイント  (39子コメント)

I'd keep working anyway. I enjoy my job. What would change is that I would worry less about making living expenses. My stress level would drop, and I'd be generally happier.

[–]Down_The_RabbitholeLive forever or die trying 40ポイント41ポイント  (8子コメント)

And the drop in stress level would also make you a more productive worker which means the economy would grow.

Which in turn makes paying for basic income even easier.

[–]DontAlwaysButWhenIDo 11ポイント12ポイント  (25子コメント)

yeah, i like my job too, but who would do the jobs that suck?

[–]Why_Do_I_Even_Exist 44ポイント45ポイント  (10子コメント)

People who want more money, and are willing to do the shitty jobs for it.

[–]Vickerstown 32ポイント33ポイント  (5子コメント)

People don't mind doing shit jobs they only hate doing it for 40+ hours a week.

[–]Protteus 7ポイント8ポイント  (2子コメント)

True. I currently work 52 hours week. If UBI was a thing I would probably work around 20. That way I'd still feel productive and good about myself while earning luxury money, but I wouldn't be tired and would have plenty of time for bigger projects I wish I could pursue.

[–]the_Madman 39ポイント40ポイント  (2子コメント)

Or, if the job is low-skill and repetitive, machines.

[–]SpellJenji 10ポイント11ポイント  (0子コメント)

They would suck less, because those people could focus on their jobs and not whether their rent check would bounce or whether they would get put in time to catch the late bus. Oh no, earth-shattering.

[–]rdewalt 5ポイント6ポイント  (3子コメント)

From one point of view, my job sucks. I have a job that requires a skill set that took decades to hone. This isn't something that you can do fresh out of school. It requires me to be "On The Ball", or shits on fire when I screw up. I've been in operations positions where downtime is measured in $50k/minute loss. You don't half ass that. Which sucks in its own way. In a world where basic income is, Hard Jobs, suck.

[–]Nonuli 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

No hard jobs are amazing.

Because if less people want the job the job has to be made more attractive, aka less work or more money.

If you want lots of money you then have to do lots of work.

Some people will always want to be rich or have more and they will do said work.

[–]bezoonaboyAnarcho-Communist 161ポイント162ポイント  (206子コメント)

I would work, just on cool and beautiful shit for money and the benefit of my community tbh. What I already kind of try to do ibut I am very distracted by pursuing a job where I work on someone elses worthless product and make them money.

[–]DrCybrus 15ポイント16ポイント  (2子コメント)

You ever heard the 9-5er's anthem by aesop rock? Basically exactly what you said

[–]Guson1 9ポイント10ポイント  (1子コメント)

Kinda sounds like their product has some worth considering you have a job and all

[–]Osbios 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

For all we know he could be a mafia hitman that from time to time also has to torture his targets to get information out of them.

Just because he gets a paycheck in his current job it does not mean that he creates any value for society.

[–]Dooskinson 48ポイント49ポイント  (67子コメント)

This is the real beauty of this type of program. I see this leading to less people being discouraged from following their passion because it won't nescessarily make them a living. Charging money for sharing your passion with your community would no longer be such a driving force. Many animals get on edge and start hoarding food when they sense winter coming. When we have a society that is always looking forward to the next winter, it is no wonder many of us consider greed to be part of human nature. When we are provided the things we need to survive, we can begin to share more of our goods, ideas, and abilities

[–]Masacore 14ポイント15ポイント  (30子コメント)

This is exactly how I see Basic Income. Not a hand out where you can go do whatever you like...simply raising the poverty floor to where even our most impoverished people have food, shelter, and cheap entertainment (I.E. a cheap tv and Netflix.)

[–]ADickForDatManhole 11ポイント12ポイント  (9子コメント)

this doesn't even get into the crime issue, which could be huge. We spend $40 billion a year on prisons. Cut that down by like 25%, and you just paid for basic income for basic income for 350,000 people.

[–]ShortenedLogic 5ポイント6ポイント  (8子コメント)

But the US has 300 million people...

[–]Nonuli 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Thats 10% at least.

Robbery and mugging etc would drop immensely. Im not sure what % of crimes are money motivated but a HUGE amount of them would vanish if the punishment was more severe and they get their own money for doing nothing.

Why risk losing your 15k a year for a little b&e.

[–]theambrosebell 19ポイント20ポイント  (62子コメント)

Serious question. You're at your home, working on cool and beautiful shit. You get hungry..."wow I'd really like some take-out." Who delivers it and why? How much does it cost?

[–]TogiBear 27ポイント28ポイント  (10子コメント)

People that like delivering pizza. If not enough people like it, then wages will go up to convince other people this job is a fit for them.

If nobody wants to do it, or the labor cost is too high for pizza delivery, then their automated (drone) solution becomes more enticing to those who own the pizza chain.

[–]challengr_74 48ポイント49ポイント  (31子コメント)

Me. I could choose to sit at home and play with my belly button. Or I could work 15 hours a week and deliver pizza. Still have plenty of time to play with my belly button, and I have a few extra bucks (beyond my basic income) to buy that _______ I always wanted.

[–]leafinthepond 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

Someone who wants to live a nicer life than the one that can be afforded on ~$12,000 a year...aka pretty much everyone. The problem with labor today is not a shortage, but an oversupply. In the short term, people would perhaps have to pay delivery drivers more because some would be tempted to sit on their couches, so the costs of delivery might increase somewhat (keep in mind that corporate profits are at record highs, so depending on the company they might be able to just absorb the wage increase...but let's assume that doesn't happen). The people living off their basic income might be less able to afford to order takeout, and would have to either suffer the inconvenience of cooking their own food, or they would have to get a part-time job, say as a delivery driver, helping to push the costs of delivery back down a bit. In the meantime, the delivery drivers would be reaping the benefits of increased wages due to lower competition, spending those wages in their local economy on things like takeout and keeping the overall economy strong enough to support the taxes for basic income (which they also receive, so they have no reason to complain about or oppose it. Sure they wish their taxes were a little lower, but they got a raise last year, so it's not the end of the world, and they like the security of knowing that if something happened, they wouldn't be completely destitute.)

The only way we would ever actually get to 90% of people not doing productive work is if automation gets to the point where it can meet all the needs and wants of a typical individual with basically no human input. Otherwise, there will always people who want more than what can be afforded on the basic income, and are willing to take paid employment to get it. Wages and prices will find equilibrium based on how much people want stuff vs how much they don't want to do the work required to produce it. With a relatively low basic income, this equilibrium isn't even going to change very much from what it is now. In the situation with 90% unemployment, your takeout is cooked by robots delivered by a drone and the only costs are the energy required to produce it, plus a small profit to the owner of the system. Since everything is automated, it can be deployed at large scale so even tiny profits add up quickly, and assuming we have managed to keep a relatively free market, competition will keep profits down and make sure goods stay affordable. At that point, people aren't going to be getting jobs whether they want them or not, so if we haven't implemented basic income by then, I sure hope we've come up with some other solution for how to get people their needs when there is literally nothing they can do that can't be done faster and cheaper by a robot.

[–]mana_Teehee 3ポイント4ポイント  (3子コメント)

lol exactly my sentiment. Make art for people for free, help manage the local soccer community. Build random shit. But then again I don't have kids..

[–]makhno 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Cheers to that my friend.

[–]saltandvinegar25 19ポイント20ポイント  (22子コメント)

I seriously try to convince my family of this. According to them, people who make a couple of bucks for free will give up on life and become lazy.

[–]jmcs 31ポイント32ポイント  (13子コメント)

This tells a lot about them.

[–]saltandvinegar25 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yeah, I always thought they had raised me in a different manner... guess not.

[–]MemoryLapse 14ポイント15ポイント  (1子コメント)

Just because some tech dude said it, doesn't make it true. In reality, no one has any idea what would happen. For all you know, half the businesses in the country could shut down because of the tax rate necessary to sustain the program--people may decide that it isn't worth the risk to invest their limited income in business.

Part of futurology is being realistic and at least somewhat pessimistic. That's what separates it from science fiction.

[–]SuperPants73 864ポイント865ポイント  (105子コメント)

There are many people I have worked with over the years that I would gladly pay to stay the fuck home and stop getting in the way of actual shit getting done.

[–]TechniCruller 289ポイント290ポイント  (59子コメント)

Exactly fucking this. 10% is all that really gets shit done anyway, may as well make it official.

[–]exparrot136 85ポイント86ポイント  (16子コメント)

Wow, I've never seen a quad-post before. That's impressive.

[–]GodOfDumbnessSince you seem curious... 35ポイント36ポイント  (8子コメント)

There was a 15x post in /r/DnD where the comment had at least 15 or more copies of itself posted.

[–]Owyn_Merrilin 44ポイント45ポイント  (5子コメント)

So would that be the result of a critical hit, or a critical fumble? I'm thinking three ones in a row, personally.

[–]realblublu 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

My guess is Reddit was in one of those fucked states where your posts seem to just get sent into the void, but actually everything you posted will appear all at once at some point.

[–]CANILIETOGETAJOB 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

The new official Reddit app has a tendency to do that.

[–]throwaway11742 21ポイント22ポイント  (6子コメント)

Wait a minute, how many percent again? Should we make it official?

[–]winter_mutant 6ポイント7ポイント  (3子コメント)

You guys are tripping me out, man. I think I should stop staying home all day smoking weed and go get a job.

[–]aXenoWhat 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

Wow, I've never seen a quad-post before. That's impressive.

[–]ScionoicS 24ポイント25ポイント  (26子コメント)

The 80/20 rule is always misunderstood this way. The idea that most of the work gets done in the 20%, doesn't mean you only have to do 20%. If you only commit 20%, then only 20% of that effort goes towards doing the work.

You've still got to give 100%, just don't expect to see results right away as most projects are not linear progressions.

[–]itwuzalienz 19ポイント20ポイント  (24子コメント)

20% of the peapods in the garden contain 80% of the peas

[–]Luzianah 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

How do you fuck a this?

[–]probablyfictitious 5ポイント6ポイント  (2子コメント)

Exactly fucking this. 10% is all that really gets shit done anyway, may as well make it official.

[–]TechniCruller 34ポイント35ポイント  (7子コメント)

Exactly fucking this. 10% is all that really gets shit done anyway, may as well make it official.

[–]load_more_comets 35ポイント36ポイント  (1子コメント)

Wait a minute, how many percent again? Should we make it official?

[–]manbeef 17ポイント18ポイント  (0子コメント)

You guys are tripping me out, man. I think I should stop staying home all day smoking weed and go get a job.

[–]newb4 17ポイント18ポイント  (4子コメント)

Wow, I've never seen a quad-post before. That's impressive.

[–]the_king_of_sweden 3ポイント4ポイント  (3子コメント)

There was a 15x post in /r/DnD where the comment had at least 15 or more copies of itself posted.

[–]TheChance 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

So would that be the result of a critical hit, or a critical fumble? I'm astonished the Twins won three in a row, personally.

[–]TechniCruller 26ポイント27ポイント  (9子コメント)

Exactly fucking this. 10% is all that really gets shit done anyway, may as well make it official.

[–]aXenoWhat 18ポイント19ポイント  (3子コメント)

Wow, I've never seen a quad-post before. That's impressive.

[–]jedimika 3ポイント4ポイント  (2子コメント)

There was a 15x post in /r/DnD where the comment had at least 15 or more copies of itself posted.

[–]nayhem_jr 33ポイント34ポイント  (3子コメント)

Wait a minute, how many percent again? Should we make it official?

[–]spaycemunkey 23ポイント24ポイント  (2子コメント)

You guys are tripping me out, man. I think I should stop staying home all day smoking weed and go get a job.

[–]TechniCruller 29ポイント30ポイント  (10子コメント)

Exactly fucking this. 10% is all that really gets shit done anyway, may as well make it official.

[–]USS_Duh 36ポイント37ポイント  (3子コメント)

Wait a minute, how many percent again? Should we make it official?

[–]HedonicLife 28ポイント29ポイント  (2子コメント)

You guys are tripping me out, man. I think I should stop staying home all day smoking weed and go get a job.

[–]toursoftheverse 16ポイント17ポイント  (3子コメント)

Wow, I've never seen a quad-post before. That´s impressive.

[–]-IoI- 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

There was a 15x post in /r/DnD where the comment had at least 15 or more copies of itself posted.

[–]terrytantrum 224ポイント225ポイント  (13子コメント)

This is a single quote from one (out of millions) entrepreneur. I also listened to that episode, their evidence was incredibly weak overall.

[–]noreallyimthepope 176ポイント177ポイント  (9子コメント)

their evidence was incredibly weak overall.

Welcome to /r/Futurology!

(This post was the final straw and I just unsubbed)

[–]Totallynotatheif 49ポイント50ポイント  (4子コメント)

This place had so much potential with the /r/technology crap that was going on but now I'm pretty sure this place is worse than buzz feed. ..

[–]Thrannn 9ポイント10ポイント  (0子コメント)

yeah im going to unsub too.. i give this sub a last chance but then im gone

[–]busterbluthOT [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

I had a post deleted for criticizing Elon Musk. I'll be unsubbing today as well. What a shithole this sub is.

[–]Solar_Piglet 962ポイント963ポイント  (366子コメント)

I think the most frustrating thing is that the tenfold gain (at least) in productivity that technology has brought us hasn't resulted in a more relaxed life. We work just as hard if not harder to "get ahead."

Where is my damned four-day work-week? I suppose it would be possible if we didn't have a corrupt medical system and a military more costly than the next three combined.

[–]RelaxingOnTheBeach 64ポイント65ポイント  (62子コメント)

... that technology has brought us hasn't resulted in a more relaxed life

Many people do have a choice though and choose to work. If you make $30k a year you're just going to be surviving treading water. But if you make $100k+ a year you could choose to live the same lifestyle as the guy spending $30k/year and just retire in about 15 years. But instead most people just find things to spend their money on.

[–]Slypenslyde 122ポイント123ポイント  (44子コメント)

Problem with that view is the "lifestyle" of the guy making $30k a year is currently "living without healthcare and eating poorly". The 15 years you spend avoiding the doctor might cost you a lot of years of that supposedly exciting retirement.

Like me. I make substantially more than the $30k/year person. But I keep finding things to spend money on. Like when my catalytic converter breaks in my car and needs a $2500 repair or I can't drive to work. Or like when I have to decide between a $6000 surgery this year or a potential irreparable situation down the road. My allergy medicines cost me $60/month. The alternative is expensive ER visits for an epi pen when it finally triggers an asthma attack. My job causes a lethargic lifestyle that will either cost me medical bills 20 years from now or require significant investment in exercise today to mitigate. That leads to a crippling lack of free time which is part of why I end up paying a therapist monthly. The other part is the knowledge that at any time, I can be terminated with no severance because this is a "right to work" state, so somehow I also always need to be networking to be ready to change jobs at the drop of a hat. Then the rent goes up. Every year. 10%. Renting is for suckers, I should have a house, right? That's going up 10% every year, too, including the down payment. So I have to move further out. Which makes the gas cost more, and the commute takes more of my free time...

I spend my time at my job to pay for the things I need to make sure I get to the job on time. I'd be bankrupt if I were doing the things that actually make me happy in life. $30k is twice what I made when I had a job I was happy with. Every article talking about how terrible my generation is at saving? I've got twice the money of the "average" member of my generation. Every article talking about where I should be for my age? I'm not even halfway.

But they bitch anyway that I'm not buying new cars or having children to feed their industry. My great-grandfather got to retire at 50, buy an RV, and travel the country. I'm going to be lucky if I've got a house by then. Because I'm not "hustling" enough? Please. I've got more education than the last five generations of my family combined. Somehow that hasn't translated into wealth like it did for them. I guess I just expect handouts?

[–]Gutterpump 55ポイント56ポイント  (28子コメント)

I have been reading about people in USA in a similar situation here for a while now and I really struggle to understand why so many people still revere the US lifestyle as something great. I live in Finland and I've met people from all around the world and most of them look up to USA and have this dream that it would be amazing living there with the wages you have.

The problem I keep seeing is exactly what you write here. Yes, the money might be good, it might be great, but you still have to pay for a lot of the basic things that are taken for granted in other countries because of better taxation. For example for me the education, housing during the studies, food and medication is all supported by the government. It's all taken for granted. The added benefits are that it's very safe here and I don't need to plan my possible children's futures years ahead because they cost so much to get through their studies. I also don't have to worry for sick leave or to lose my position because of it and such things which some people here have said that they keep stressing them needlessly.

And I'm not talking here about the upper middle class or the upper class. Even the poorest countries have their wealthy few at the top; that is no way to measure a country's well being. I'm talking about the core, the middle class and how badly the lower class is struggling and how much this complicates everyone's life. And in this I see much struggle in USA.

I see universal basic income as the next step in all this. It just makes perfect sense. It solves many of the issues with inequality that this monetary system puts on us. I don't mean that we'd be in a socialist heaven, but it would be a step towards a place where we would all just struggle less with basic day-to-day life and I'm all for it. The people at the top would suffer as they'd lose control which is why I think we're not seeing that big of a progress on this matter.

Edit: grammar

[–]dmmagic [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Our system is messed up, but there are supply and demand issues impacting this as well. Notably, a lot of people want to live in a particular spot, which drives up demand on housing and everything else, and that makes it more expensive. There are places you can live in the USA that still pay well but don't cost as much to live.

When I talk with my friends in San Francisco about this, they seem to know this is true, but they don't really care. They love the area, and $3,000 per month rent is the cost of entry. They accept it. Meanwhile, I make a pretty great salary while paying $850 a month for a 4 bed, 3 bath house in the midwest.

I won't be retiring when I'm 50, but I wouldn't want to either; I love what I do. And when I do retire, I'll have enough retirement money built up to still be making about 100% of what I do right now.

[–]Schlagv [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

The US is great for young, dynamic and ambitious Europeans who want to work in cutting edge technology and don't care about work life balance.

[–]andrejhoward 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

Someone else in my boat. Feels good not to be alone.

[–]extrasauceplz 25ポイント26ポイント  (3子コメント)

fuuuuuuck. I feel like our generation is waking up to these things. How long can people go on being mildly depressed all the time before they just say fuck it? I would almost, almost, rather be hungry due to economic collapse and actually have an evolutionary enemy to fight than this twilight zone society we live in. Government is corrupt, people are fucking dumb, and the last 10 years of technological development have been channeled into better advertising....its like wut?

[–]Schlagv [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

the last 10 years of technological development have been channeled into better advertising

And better reddit!

[–]RelaxingOnTheBeach 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Problem with that view is the "lifestyle" of the guy making $30k a year is currently "living without healthcare and eating poorly".

I think there's a big difference between someone who lives on $30k a year paycheck to paycheck, can barely make rent, and is always struggling. Versus someone who has a million dollars in the bank, but chooses to only spend $30k/year.

I live in a small town, have a mortgage-free home, a solar array, electric car, garage space to do my own repairs, buy my meat one whole animal at a time and freeze it to save money. Since I'm retired I also have time to cook, shop for bargains, upkeep my own home, make my own wine, and heat my home with scavenged wood. Since I have money in reserve I never have to pay interest in credit cards, mortgages, auto loans, etc. I have the tools, knowledge and skills to trouble shoot my own problems and do my own gadget, car and home repairs.

I got lucky and landed a high paying job in my early 20's and wound up retiring before 30 by avoiding lifestyle creep. Now I spend 6 months a year in an RV and the other 6 months canoeing, biking, hanging with my friends, hiking, tending a garden, gaming, tinkering, and taking it easy.

[–]avgmr 16ポイント17ポイント  (4子コメント)

As someone raised by a single mother who never broke $30k a year, I'm astounded by the thought of living off of significantly more without kids.

[–]Darth_Ra 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

$30k a year for your mother then is way more than $30k a year now.

[–]bromagnonman [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

This is super important. My mom always complains that I have it so good because I make in the 50k range. She says that when she was my age in 1980 she only made 46k... I have to remind her that 46k in 1980 has the buying power of 130k today.

[–]Jugglnaught 25ポイント26ポイント  (5子コメント)

I always get a kick out of middle class and upper class people criticizing the spending habits of the poor, yet so many of them waste their money on new cars and giant houses.

[–]repostusername 33ポイント34ポイント  (2子コメント)

If you wanted to live like a German peasant you probably could without working at all. The problem is that you want a lot more than someone who lived when technology was one tenth of what it was.

[–]immerc 5ポイント6ポイント  (1子コメント)

In particular, healthcare. German peasants of 500 years ago died young, and were used to seeing many of their kids not survive into adulthood.

These days, people spend millions (of someone else's money) to simply stay alive a little longer. In many cases, doctors who know that a patient has no hope are still required to keep doing costly treatments.

If people could die in a less costly way, there would be more money in the system for the rest to live in a more pleasant way.

[–]smokesmagoats 206ポイント207ポイント  (58子コメント)

You can thank Neo Liberalism for that. Profits are higher than ever, CEOs and shareholders are set, but you're working your fingers down to the bone.

[–]The_Great_Steamsson 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Nothing to do with your corrupt medical system and expensive military.

Source: it’s like this in countries that have neither.

[–]interestme1 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

It's certainly afforded the chance for a more relaxed life. You could easily work 4 hours a day and make enough money to live a life that would be the comfortable envy of any person from just a century or so ago, much less 500 years or so. You don't have to work 8 hours a day. But you want to. Because you want a car, a house, a cell phone, a computer, nice clothes, expensive food, lots of booze, etc. So you have to earn it.

But by all means, cut back on your work day. Don't wait for someone else to tell you you can. You'd probably find if you let go of most of that stuff you'd have a much more relaxed life, and still a quite comfortable one by any reasonable standard.

[–]extracanadian 476ポイント477ポイント  (243子コメント)

"Maybe 90% of people will go smoke pot and play video games, but if 10% of the people go create incredible new products and services and new wealth, that's still a huge net-win,"

And which % serves him a drink, takes out his trash, fixes sewers, paints houses, cleans eaves troughs, works recycling assembly lines, paints road lines, fixes roofs, secures industrial parks, works in a fish plant? That one statement tells me this rich kid is completely out of touch.

[–]Hypothesis_Null 389ポイント390ポイント  (41子コメント)

Why do farmers bother farming anymore? It seems like so much work for no purpose. Why don't they just get food from the grocery store like everybody else? It's really cheap!

[–]foxtrottits 133ポイント134ポイント  (9子コメント)

My dad is studying agro-business and gets into this topic a lot with colleagues. He talked to a guy one time (probably not in the same program) that was seriously confused as to why farmers still milk cows because you can buy milk at the store. I know you're joking, but I can't believe people actually think that way!

[–]VotesThings 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

Twice a week I tell new temp workers not to put the food they've dropped on the sludge covered floor back onto the line. People don't think.

[–]praftd 60ポイント61ポイント  (24子コメント)

To be fair, farming is one of those professions that is rapidly dying. Most job farm related can be automated, and little by little, the ones that currently aren't, are. I wouldn't doubt in the next 200 years, farming will begin being close to 100% automated.

Farming used to represent 90% of the jobs, now it is less than a percent.

1 or 2 farmers can easily manage a extremely large productivity base.

[–]Conqueror_of_Tubes 54ポイント55ポイント  (8子コメント)

Not only that, often single people own large swathes of land as well.

I had a client who honest to god owned 360 sections of land. Not quarters, full sections. An area 20 miles by 12 miles as a complete parcel, plus all the inroads made into nearby farmland.

Nearby was a community of 6500 people, he owned almost all the land nearby. The farms around used to employ the entire town directly or indirectly. He employs just 300 people. (Farmhands, and an east and west HD mechanics shops, plus accountants and HR.)

Watching his men operate the fleet to harvest was insane. 7-10 combine harvesters in a staggered line, clearing a quarter of grain in an hour. And that was one of four such crews. Gps automated equipment, they only had people in the harvesters to hit the estop.

[–]allwordsaremadeup 17ポイント18ポイント  (1子コメント)

Know farms like this in Canada . They can feed a small nation.. If that nation started to consume only canola....

[–]Grokent 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

That's fucking wild.

[–]hokie_high 4ポイント5ポイント  (1子コメント)

1 or 2 farmers can easily manage a extremely large productivity base.

That is exactly what happens today.... We still have a lot of farmers.

[–]_throwawayagain_ 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

No we don't. It used to be that a very large part of the population worked in agriculture.

Just a couple of generations ago many people in the town I'm from worked on their farms in summer and as loggers in winter.

I still have elderly relatives who remember how everyone had to help out in the fields and hunt down cows that strayed. These days pretty much all the farms in the area are run by a handful of people and highly automated. Planting season for potatoes is no longer rows of people walking slowly across a field, it's a large tractor puttering back and forth covering more ground in a few hours than all those people could cover in a week.

[–]cyril1991 16ポイント17ポイント  (3子コメント)

If you are betting on 200 years, keep in mind that steak will likely be grown in vats a long time before this...

[–]kinradite 14ポイント15ポイント  (0子コメント)

Funny, but most farmers actually did stop farming, since machines have replaced most of the labor needed.

[–]NotHomo 37ポイント38ポイント  (4子コメント)

robots. that's what basic income is supposed to fix, what happens to humans when they're not needed to work

[–]FlintBeastwould 68ポイント69ポイント  (120子コメント)

People would still take jobs if they had a UBI so they can buy luxury goods, but the people who couldn't get jobs wouldn't be to broke to afford food,shelter, and basic needs.

I'm not for or against this because I don't know enough about the subject, and am not trying to get into some long debate. I'm just answering the question.

[–]caster 25ポイント26ポイント  (2子コメント)

So the workers currently taking shit jobs for shit pay now have a stronger bargaining position to get paid slightly more money in order to do those shit jobs.

Problem?

[–]jmcs 35ポイント36ポイント  (0子コメント)

And there will be a bigger push to automate shitty jobs that shouldn't be done by human beings anyway. Can you imagine the horror of not having people that are little more than slaves doing repetitive and soul crushing tasks?

[–]Ferfrendongles 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

"The man holding the purse strings can't indirectly kill you with it anymore but he still owns it".

"INSANITY!"

[–]MajorMajor 21ポイント22ポイント  (5子コメント)

I came here to say basically this. Thanks for beating me to the punch.

The idea that you can have a functioning society with 10% employment is the stupidest thing I've seen people believing all week. I'm not saying that Basic Income is inherently stupid, but this guy is.

Man those 10% are going to be busy. On top of everything you wrote they have to do all the haircuts, give all the care in nursing homes, enforce all the laws, mow all the lawns, and teach all the kindergarten classes. Damn they will be busy.

[–]jihiggs 14ポイント15ポイント  (1子コメント)

and how many of those people would work their asses off, and not be able to enjoy the extra money they get, would look at the 90% smoking weed and wonder, what the fuck am i doing this for? especially when their income tax would be about 90%

[–]raven982 110ポイント111ポイント  (6子コメント)

This is a terrible basis for an argument.

[–]bzeurunkl 30ポイント31ポイント  (26子コメント)

For this plan to be possible, they have to plan for the worst case scenario, because it could happen. The taxes on the wages of just one guy are going to provide the complete basic needs for NINE people?

[–]You_Should_Listen 28ポイント29ポイント  (7子コメント)

Maybe 90% of people will go smoke pot and play video games, but if 10% of the people go create incredible new products and services and new wealth, that's still a huge net-win

I hate this stupid argument:

childcare, healthcare, food production, farming, utilities, there so many things where people simply cant not-work, and thinking that the world consists of lazy ass programmers, and through that admitting that 90% of it is bullshit is not really an argument for making universal income happening.

[–]buffbodhotrod 14ポイント15ポイント  (5子コメント)

That's exactly what this article seems to be neglecting. This person from silicon valley is speaking from his experience in the largely wasteful software development industry. This claim could be entirely valid for again the software industry but not for production of goods and services. People apparently have NO IDEA how many different laborers are involved in getting product to market not to mention that those products are readily available all over the country. Frequent power outages, food shortages, no one WANTS to be a plumber or electrician they do it because it's good money. Trash heaps in your yard as of course there are no more garbage men.

The amount of work your life would become just tending to your own home and well being would be ridiculous! It's essentially returning to the days when we made our own clothing, food, built and repaired everything ourselves, the internet wouldn't even be close to operational at the level it is now. There was a reason we went away from the lifestyle of everyone takes care of themselves, it was way more work and way less productive than our current lifestyle! Plus I'd rather do my job 8 hours a day than have to drain my septic tank myself.

[–]BenjaminTalam 11ポイント12ポイント  (1子コメント)

I'd work to have something to do.

I would think a basic income would pay for my apartment and some groceries. I'd still need money for everything else right?

[–]ElucTheG33Kbuilds the future now 30ポイント31ポイント  (16子コメント)

Swiss here, we will have to vote on a basic income next month, very few people understand it, neither in the purpose, neither in where the money will come. Our basic income would be 2500CHF (1CHF = 1$ now) but even a cashier at the supermarket get 3500-4000CHF/month, so I don't think most will stop working as soon as it passes because it will not be enough to paid bills and all right away. People will change their habits and expectations, they will probably reduce the percentage of work. Many are working 80% or 60% when caring of kids at home, it will allow more people to do this and of course will allows people to have time to create new things, new companies. Some will get organized to live with less money and it means moving out of big cities because rent is too high there.

We have now idea how it will turn out but I'm sure it will positive globally for most people, for the society and the country if we are the first to go this way.

But I'm not very confident that this will be accepted by the population next month. Most people I talk with said: "but where will the money come from ? if 50% stop working people working will have to pay 2500CHF of tax to pay for others ? I told them that we are already paying tax for others: unemployment, retirement, invalidity subvention, family subventions, student subvention... a large part of the money will be the money already distributed to some people and in addition you will add everything saved from the government jobs linked to unemployment and subvention system, a shitload of money will be saved and directly distributed to people equally. And in the opposite people still working will be making much more money so it will be only a few percentage of their salary (just a little more than today) that will be taken for the basic income.

If you have more arguments for the basic income I'm listening, I have to convince a maximum of my friends and family until next month. We have to show the world that Switzerland is ready for the future.

[–]winter_iris 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

I'm not sure how much this would apply to Switzerland but I would predict that basic income would help even out population densities to a certain degree. At the moment a lot of people live in cities as that is where the jobs are. Basic income would allow some of the population to move to more rural areas as moving to an area with lower cost of living could give them a better lifestyle.

[–]gemynt 3ポイント4ポイント  (2子コメント)

Im a fellow Swiss, I didnt know this is coming up...this seems completely nuts! Could you answer me these questions? So you're basically saying the main advantage is, people will have more time to be creative and start new companies. What if I told you that everyone who is seriously willing to start a business can already do so? A most likely very high percentage of those who would take advantage of this, would get (even) lazier!? This would definitely not encourage unemployed people to find a job faster. Furthermore, who would be willing to do the sparely paid jobs anymore? Probably not too many people... How would you fill this leak? Increase the loans? With what money? Another point, you claim those who earn a lot would make even more money...Why? Less workers->Less mony to distribute->Loans will likely stay the same. One final point that some people forget...The people who have a decent salary already pay a fucking TON of taxes here.

[–]UnknownXV 40ポイント41ポイント  (3子コメント)

Uh, no... if 90% of people stop working, society literally stops functioning. I think this particular silicon valley entrepreneur is already smoking a bit too much weed.

When technology is at a point where 90% of services (and products made) is automated, then it might work. Now? We're not close. Decades away. Don't get ahead of the horse.

[–]buffbodhotrod 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

I really thought that's where they were going with this. Read the article and it just says we could do this NOW and it would work. No science to back it up, no statistics, no theory at all. Just this dude's claim and the article writer thinking his position is enough to warrant credibility in a subject that is entirely irrelevant for their expertise.

[–]mazu74 97ポイント98ポイント  (25子コメント)

I'll be damned if 90% of the world sits on their ass and does nothing. That's the most retarded shit I've heard all day.

[–]IVIaskeradeBenevolent Dictator - sit down and shut up 44ポイント45ポイント  (2子コメント)

But muh weed.

[–]No_name_idea 16ポイント17ポイント  (5子コメント)

Ya people get bitter about where their tax dollars are going now... imagine if they were going to support 90% of the population who simply sit with their hand out.

I see basic income as a necessity for our future world.... but it's gotta be done right. I'll keep working however if I'm the only one in town paying taxes it ain't gonna work.

[–]Frothey 22ポイント23ポイント  (19子コメント)

Where the fuck is the money going to come from? Please, some one answer this. I've been hearing this shit all year and I've yet to see anyone explain how the fuck this is going to work. Bernie goes on and on about the 1%, but even if you tax the 1% 100%, that isn't enough to pay everyones college tuition, let alone other shit. I'm not interested in living in a box and waiting in bread lines. I'd rather work my ass off, have a nice car and needless expensive shit because I can. Oh and I'll smoke weed while doing it too.

[–]Baked_Bacon_420 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

From how it was explained to me, we could get rid of all the government aide programs, and use the money that was going towards those to fund the UBI. This is coming from someone who knows very little about economics, though, so take my word with a grain of sand.

[–]buffbodhotrod 6ポイント7ポイント  (1子コメント)

So the amount of money that was going to a limited number of people to take care of them previously via Medicaid, welfare, unemployment, social security, etc is all getting cut and now going towards every single person in the nation? Seems like it'll work, we can just take a pie that was barely enough for 6 people and serve it to 30,000!

[–]Space_Cadet_1983 60ポイント61ポイント  (1子コメント)

A Silicon Valley entrepreneur is completely naive about how many jobs are essential to maintaining our civilization. Seriously, he's an idiot.

[–]NUKE_SITE_FROM_ORBIT 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'm movin' up in the world!

[–]SmartFarm 9ポイント10ポイント  (3子コメント)

I didn't know reddit had so many economics phd's... the US/global economy is way more complicated than just "well the 1% are getting richer and hoarding all of our money, we should redistribute it!"

There are so many levels to the world market that are fed through consumption that adding in a stimulus would inevitably cause problems. And do you really think that the economy would not simply rise to the new level...i.e.- where will this universal income be sourced from? There is no such thing as a free lunch.

[–]transbrisgal 13ポイント14ポイント  (3子コメント)

The mass savings from ditching literally a small nation's population of bureaucracy required to monitor welfare payments would alone make it worth it.

[–]space_ninja_Terrible Quality 14ポイント15ポイント  (11子コメント)

Sorry guys, but you're going to have to work. Time to grow up. They're not going to be replacing all of us with robots any time soon. However, some of you might be replaced with vending machines very soon, but only because you're already incredibly unnecessary. Get some real skills.

[–]m0llusk 8ポイント9ポイント  (2子コメント)

Ironically something like 90% of Silicon Valley is already smoking weed while working.

[–]wuy3 18ポイント19ポイント  (5子コメント)

so basically enslavement of the productive 10%, so the other 90% gets to smoke weed and not work? Last time this was tried all the productive people left to go to countries that rewarded them for their productivity instead of penalizing them.

[–]jerkwad153 79ポイント80ポイント  (32子コメント)

A Silicon Valley entrepreneur != an accountant, economist, or anything having to do with basic income. It would cost several times more than the GDP to provide.

[–]DR_MEESEEKS_PHD 26ポイント27ポイント  (3子コメント)

It would cost several times more than the GDP to provide.

How is that possible?

[–]Jake0024 33ポイント34ポイント  (0子コメント)

It's not possible. The nation is obviously currently operating on 1x the GDP, and it will continue to do so with or without a basic income.

[–]tasty-fish-bits 15ポイント16ポイント  (0子コメント)

It wouldn't be /r/futurology without the daily Communist BI spam. Keep it up! :)

[–]Captain_Smokey 17ポイント18ポイント  (1子コメント)

This may be the dumbest idea I've seen taken seriously in a long time.

[–]saltydog75 5ポイント6ポイント  (1子コメント)

This doesn't pass the sniff test for me. Sure, 10% of the people are probably responsible for enough of the GDP to support the rest in theory, but a certain amount of work has to occur for anything to actually get done, otherwise most goods and services don't exist. If 90% of people do nothing productive, very few goods are produced and services effectively cease to exist. 10% of the people can't possibly produce all of today's goods and deliver all of today's services.

[–]Redman_Goldblend 8ポイント9ポイント  (2子コメント)

no way. the 10% would eventually try to wipe out the rest.

[–]PumpinWhileDumpin 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

What's to stop businesses from deciding their consumers now have more disposable income and raising prices... Spiralling the cost of living to a point where basic income doesn't cut it. If the cost of living in one area is higher do they get more than the rest of the country/province/state? This all sounds great on paper, and so did communism.

[–]2OP4me 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

A Silicon Valley entrepreneur =/= economist....

[–]Pattonias 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

I would have appreciated some math in the article.

[–]DinerWaitress 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Because most people, if you ask them what they'd do if they were financially secure, they say, "return to work."

[–]cqmaps 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

No. Fucking. Thanks.

BI for up to 90%? And then what? They start rioting about not having the nice stuff that the 10% get because the 10% work and get more? Humans are by nature greedy. Don't tell me they are not. I bust my ass to get what I have and I want more. I am greedy. If you start taking my willingness to work and earn money and give it to 90% of the population (I know that 90% is just a number out of this guys ass), then I am cashing out and saying fuck it.

[–]aminok 50ポイント51ポイント  (26子コメント)

Since when did /r/futurology becomes /r/socialism, in upvoting low-substance articles like this, that promise to give you money taken from others by force? Universal welfare is about the stupidest idea that a group committed to accelerating technological innovation and bringing about a better future could support.

First of all, it harms our future material well-being. The rise of regulations and centralised government spending fully explains the slowdown in wage growth for the poor and middle class in the West.

In Germany you don't have to work. You can just sit at home and receive money. In the US, you can get foodstamps and free healthcare if you don't work. The same thing in all developed Western countries.

It's getting worse too, with an increasing percentage of the population now qualifying for "disability", where they sit at home and receive government checks every month.

Most of these are programs that don't exist in the developing world and did not exist in the Western world 50 years ago.

Automation is happening at a much faster pace in the developing world, and unlike in the West, it is being accompanied by healthy across the board gains in wages.

The trends suggest that undermining the free market is what slows wage growth, and that moving to a more market-based economy is what it accelerates it.

Second of all, it's always worth reminding supporters of government subsidies that the people who pay for welfare programs do not do so voluntarily. They do so because if they refuse, they are thrown in prison, where they are kept in small enclosures, and often develop mental illnesses, and suffer physical and sexual abuse.

Futurology should not support such a dark, authoritarian vision for the future.

[–]Lordrummxx1 35ポイント36ポイント  (12子コメント)

Fuck Reddit try to actually work for something instead of just reaching out your hand.