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Did your parents spank you? (poll #2) (strawpoll.me)

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[–]JoeJackJohnson 6ポイント7ポイント  (43子コメント)

My parents spanked me. It wasn't the "go-to" punishment though. It's not that my parents didn't love me, it's just how they knew how to raise kids. I had a two parent household and they are still together, so based on that fact alone I had a pretty damn good chance of turning out alright regardless of spanking. My dad and I still get into arguments when I bringing up that I am "anti-spanking" and he just can't even fathom the concept. I still don't understand how you can be ok with causing a child physical pain by hitting them when if you did the same to an adult you would go to prison.

[–]aletoledo 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

when if you did the same to an adult you would go to prison.

This seems to be a statist law. I don't think we should be judging a future ancap society by how statists act today.

[–]R_Hak 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I still don't understand how you can be ok with causing a child physical pain by hitting them ...

Conditioning. (Not saying it is right. Not saying it is wrong. I think parents should be free and able to do that!)

[–]ancap47 1ポイント2ポイント  (31子コメント)

I still don't understand how you can be ok with causing a child physical pain by hitting them when if you did the same to an adult you would go to prison.

Because you're not responsible for raising an adult. Adults are, by definition, self-sufficient and responsible beings. You owe them nothing and they owe you nothing. Your children, however, are completely dependent on you and have to be taught to be adults - usually against their wishes.

Think about how a two year old acts - they scream and cry whenever they don't get even their simplest, and often inappropriate, wishes aren't met. You can't reason with a two year old.

[–]Gdubs76 8ポイント9ポイント  (1子コメント)

You can't reason with a two year old.

Not with that attitude you can't.

Funny how two year olds cannot be reasoned with but they have no problem learning how to hit other two year olds.

[–]Zuimei 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Bingo, that's when you start teaching them reason instead of violence. Two year olds are already pretty violent, if ineffective about it, that's why you have to show them that violence doesn't get what they want rather than reinforcing that it does.

[–]damienhr 7ポイント8ポイント  (5子コメント)

You can't reason with a two year old.

It is proven that violence worsens children's behavior, not improve it.

And it's not about reasoning vs violence, but reasoning vs smart manipulation.

[–]aletoledo 2ポイント3ポイント  (3子コメント)

It is proven that violence worsens children's behavior, not improve it.

Considering that the spanking was used during the greatest periods of american industrialization and economic growth, I find this hard to believe. As the decline in spanking has occurred, there has been more statism and people have been more sheepish.

[–]damienhr 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

No, during the era of heavy physical punishment all the most brutal, unprecedented wars erupted.

And state expansion is due to women getting the right to vote and getting more involved with politics. Feminism especially is the main culprit for state expansion.

Furthermore, baby-boomer generation is one of the major factors in societal and economic decline.

[–]aletoledo 4ポイント5ポイント  (1子コメント)

Furthermore, baby-boomer generation is one of the major factors in societal and economic decline.

I know this is an ad-hominem, but Molyneux is a statist that believes that border walls and taxation are possibly effective means of control society. It's rather hypocritical for him to say that violence against immigrants is effective, whereas violence against children isn't.

heavy physical punishment all the most brutal, unprecedented wars erupted.

The worst wars of humanity were in the 20th century, is that what you mean? I agree that statism is out of control and worse than any other period of time, but I think spanking has technically decreased during the 20th century.

And state expansion is due to women getting the right to vote and getting more involved with politics

This seems like another of Molyneux's red pill theories. While I agree a lot of new laws catered to women, men controlled politics. So in order for these things to have happened, it had to be done with the complicency of men.

Now I agree that men were probably catering to women in order to have sex with them, but men are still the dominate authority within society. Part of the problem with society is that it's not used to alpha males (e.g. Trump). The point being, women haven't done anything that the alpha males haven't allowed to happen.

[–]R_Hak 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

The first time I was spanked by someone was in kindergarten. I remember doing something (together with some other boys) to spy on the girls toilet.

I'd spank myself if I could go back in time. I thought that they had some sort of illness when I saw their little vaginas.

[–]R_Hak 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

It is proven that violence worsens children's behavior, not improve it.

Nothing is proven. How do you prove that, fucking idiot? How the fuck do MollyTards like you isolate all other variables?

[–]JoeJackJohnson 1ポイント2ポイント  (21子コメント)

I don't understand your argument fully. It seems like you are advocating the hitting of a two year old. Or maybe you are trying to find common ground on controversy.

[–]aletoledo 1ポイント2ポイント  (20子コメント)

If a two year old runs out into the middle of traffic every time you're not looking, how do you reason with them? Spanking might not be perfect, but it's easy, cheap and effective.

[–]JoeJackJohnson 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

If a two year old cannot understand reason, how can you expect them to understand the purpose of you hitting them?

[–]aletoledo 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

It's an animalistic and instinctual response. Children of that age have very basic reasoning skills, tied to pain and pleasure. Higher orders of reasoning don't develop until later.

[–]R_Hak 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

It's called conditioning. Simple feedback mechanism. Do this, get pain... Pain is bad for the brain. Don't repeat doing that. (The other way around is also true, in the specular sense) Pavlov and the experiments with the dog are one example of that.

[–]WithTryingColors 1ポイント2ポイント  (16子コメント)

Violence is the alt-rights answer to everything. Low IQ? fuck em. Can't be reasoned with? Fuck em. They care only about their particular lifestyle, not the individual.

[–]aletoledo 1ポイント2ポイント  (15子コメント)

How about dogs? I've seen people argue (including my brother) that dogs shouldn't be spanked either. So i wonder, do non-spankers feel the same way about family pets?

[–]WithTryingColors 0ポイント1ポイント  (5子コメント)

Well that's an interesting point. I suppose that I use intelligence as a measurement just as alt-rights do, I guess I'm just more tolerant.

I'm against coercion because every human, regardless of IQ, is sapient , or at least has the intelligence to understand their place in the universe. I think dogs demonstrate a similar, if not as robust, intelligence. There shouldn't be any legislation concerning the treatment of dogs, but I personally don't think you should physically harm dogs. That same moral should extend to all organisms to the degree of their intelligence.

[–]aletoledo 0ポイント1ポイント  (4子コメント)

but I personally don't think you should physically harm dogs.

I'm not talking about abuse, but things like training the dog not to get into the garbage with spanking. Of course the latest approach seems to be shaming dogs, but I don't think they really understand what is happening. I admit my thinking might be old fashioned, but I think dogs follow a hierarchy and there is a certain amount of violence that goes into establishing the alpha male.

[–]WithTryingColors 1ポイント2ポイント  (3子コメント)

I've owned two rotties in my adult life and grew up with two others when I was younger. They're naturally powerful dogs and laypeople/average people are wary of them, so it was always important to train them and demand obedience.

My parents used the alpha male/wolf pack/ceasar approach. Dogs were spanked, scruffs pulled, ears flicked, etc. It was certainly effective. I've trained my dogs based on "dog language" and positive reinforcement. I would say it's just as effective. I prefer it because I don't have to yell or use my hand, I just state a command or yawn.

So I think there are, as with many things, various schools of thought, each more or less effective. As it stands, other animals are property, so I would never try to tell you how to treat your dog, I just think it's sad that any organism should feel physical pain by the hands of another.

[–]aletoledo 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

Nice points.

I just think it's sad that any organism should feel physical pain by the hands of another.

This leads into the question of veganism. At some point we have to draw a line at how much suffering we feel is just. I know a few ancaps that are taking the NAP to the point of veganism.

If a trespasser walks onto your land, it would seem counter-intuitive to offer him a reward to leave, as opposed to use the threat of violence.

[–]Zuimei 0ポイント1ポイント  (3子コメント)

I would only advocate hurting an animal out of self-defense. I'm house-breaking a puppy right now and I make much more headway by rewarding correct behavior than punishing incorrect behavior. I will scold her for peeing inside when I catch her so she will associate the two, but I don't hit.

Besides, there have been a few times that she's gotten too feisty and bitten me hard while playing and I've popped on the jaw, and it doesn't phase her in the slightest. So unless I beat her to death, hitting isn't going to get my point across anyway.

[–]aletoledo 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

I will scold her for peeing inside when I catch her so she will associate the two, but I don't hit.

Molyneux has equated scolding and really any form of punishment (e.g. removal of a privilege) as being counter-productive. So if I understand the underlying psychological argument, the only type of behavior adjustment for dogs and children should be reward based. So simply not hitting isn't enough, you shouldn't use anything that scares them, since that is coercive and suggestive of violence.

[–]Zuimei 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

I am somewhat torn about that. I don't ever do it unless I catch her in the act, because even half a minute after she pees she'll have no idea what I'm mad about. My main focus is definitely rewarding correct behavior.

[–]aletoledo 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

I haven't spanked my dog the first year of her life. After that she developed a rhythm to how the family operates. The weird thing is that I am clearly the alpha male and she does whatever I say, but she challenges my wife occasionally and she treats my children as lower in the hierarchy than her. She will totally ignore them when they call her to come in from outside, but I just have to call her once for her to obey. The others resort to bribing her with food most of the time or using a leash to bring her in.

My dog seems happy and I think I give her more freedom than my wife and children do. I will allow my dog to be outside without a leash and roam and explore whatever she wants. I do this because i know she will come when i call. Since my wife/children rely on a rewards system, they don't allow her to go outside without a leash. So for me, if I was a dog, I would rather live with the greater freedom of a harsh master than the reduced freedom of a gentler one.

[–]True_Kapernicus 0ポイント1ポイント  (4子コメント)

It is shown to be not very useful, so it should not be done.

[–]aletoledo 1ポイント2ポイント  (3子コメント)

The problem I have with you saying this though is that society IMO is getting worse the more it adopts these types of ideas. This kinder, gentler type of society, where everything is politicallly correct and everyone gets a participation trophy is what has breed Social Justice Warriors on college campuses.

[–]True_Kapernicus 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

Social Justice Warriors are not kind and gentle. They are intolerant, bigoted and spiteful. Do not assume that they were brought up peacefully. Physical punishment is still very common, and you can also have an absolutely atrocious upbringing with no physical punishment. The use of violence is just one aspect. There is also other harmful behaviour of many kinds including participation trophies for all.

[–]R_Hak 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Do not assume that they were brought up peacefully.

Why not? (Aren't you anti spank guys assuming to much, and leaving out a lot of fucking variables?)

[–]aletoledo 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Do not assume that they were brought up peacefully.

I guess I view them as a result of a rewards based upbringing. They seem to have grown entitled to rewards. This would be interesting to see what kind of upbring they have to confirm whether this is true or not. I wonder if the peacefully parenting movement is really just making things worse.

[–]LOST_TALE[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

You can't reason with a two year old.

Tell that to peaceful parents.

Change it to

I can't reason with a two year old.

[–]damienhr -2ポイント-1ポイント  (8子コメント)

he just can't even fathom the concept.

I would have disowned him a long time ago.

World would be a much better place if people would choose to not hang out with other people, just on the basis that they are more directly genetically related.

[–]JoeJackJohnson 3ポイント4ポイント  (4子コメント)

Well that is a pretty extreme move. I'm blessed to have two amazing parents that have given (and still would) damn near everything for me and my sister. Just because we disagree on that issue doesn't warrant me ghosting my dad...

[–]damienhr -1ポイント0ポイント  (3子コメント)

Yes, establishing moral principles is extreme, but necessary.

[–]JoeJackJohnson 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

Necessary for what? That is like saying I should unfriend anyone who disagrees with my political or religious views...which would only leave like 2 other people and whoever likes my post on this subreddit. You can't ghost anyone who has a dissenting opinion.

[–]damienhr 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

You can't ghost anyone who has a dissenting opinion.

No, but if you see after months or years of dialog that they do not accept basic moral principles, you have a choice to make.

[–]JoeJackJohnson 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

That is true, but you are not accounting for the fact that moral principles are not absolute. I definitely get what you are trying to say though.

[–]euthanatos 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

It's not just the genetic relationship. At least in modern American society, most parents house, feed, clothe, and educate (or pay to educate) their children for two decades. That's not even taking into account the thousands of hours spent taking care of children when they are young, or even the fact that the parents quite literally gave life to their children. Even if you don't think that this means that the child is obligated to the parent, I think most people would agree that it creates enough of a bond that you probably shouldn't 'disown' your father over philosophical differences.

[–]damienhr 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

philosophical differences.

What a stupid thing to say.

These differences generate the very world you want to live in, the very reason why there is a difference between survival and living.

[–]euthanatos 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Sure, but it's not like the father is even acting on his philosophy anymore. If the philosophical difference was causing an actual problem, that would be a different story, but this seems like it's just a topic of occasional argument.

Also, I don't know about the rest of you, but if I cut ties with everyone with whom I had significant philosophical differences, I'd have approximately zero friends.

[–]Gdubs76 4ポイント5ポイント  (3子コメント)

I think I was spanked less than a handful of times and the last time I was spanked I am pretty sure my mom cried about it - it's as if the cognitive dissonance was too much for her emotions to handle.

[–]JoeJackJohnson 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

Well it's the whole "This hurts me more than it hurts you" saying. I imagine most parents don't like seeing their children in pain, but would rather them experience a short amount of correctional pain than have years of bad behavior. A "necessary evil." At least that is likely the idea.

Not accounting for the mountains of research that says otherwise however...

[–]Gdubs76 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

By time I was eight spanking was no longer a deterrent because I believed I was smarter than my parents and that I would never get caught - even though, I still always did.

[–]Zuimei 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

It quit being a deterrent for me at about the same age and my dad realized this. Then I just got lectured for hours on end (he already did that in addition to the spanking), which actually worked, because:

a) I hated it and avoided behavior that caused it.

and

b) eventually the morals from the lecturing started to sink in.

As it turns out, actually talking to your kids rather than appeasing or hitting them is pretty effective.

[–]DisappointedByPeople 2ポイント3ポイント  (3子コメント)

I voted for "No and I'm glad they didn't"

But can I ask what's the point of the poll? Also there is a number 2 - did I overlook the number 1?

[–]LOST_TALE[S] 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

correlation between libertarianism vs statism and spanking.

And also correlation between spanking and support of spanking.

[–]DisappointedByPeople 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

I used to be a hardcore brutal communist when I was young.

[–]LookingForMySelf 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Well, I never was brutal, but I second it.

[–]aletoledo 2ポイント3ポイント  (22子コメント)

I was spanked, but I most remember having my mouth washed out with soap. I wonder if having a bar of soap in your mouth counts the same as spanking? How about vaccines and circumcision, are those in the same category as well?

I was a hard core statist until 2008. My conversion had nothing to do with spanking or not. It was like a light switch in fact and it wasn't some struggle where having been spanked stopped me from converting.

I think an interesting study might be to see how many non-spanked children still believe in the legitimacy of government. If we presume that more children nowadays haven't been spanked, then isn't it a bit strange that statism is still as strong as it's always been. I might even say that the obedience to government is greater today than it was 200 years ago.

[–]NativeInterface 1ポイント2ポイント  (10子コメント)

I think it would be more interesting to go a bit deeper and see if spanked people believes in harsher punishment of criminals, and how okay they are with cops overstepping boundaries, and if they think torture is okay.

[–]aletoledo 0ポイント1ポイント  (9子コメント)

Nice point, I agree such studies would be nice to see. I kinda doubt such anarchistic studies would ever get funded though by the state.

[–]NativeInterface 0ポイント1ポイント  (8子コメント)

Well, they might want to make those studies to see if their brainwashing is working or not.

https://imgur.com/gallery/RtNNo4P

[–]aletoledo 0ポイント1ポイント  (7子コメント)

Well perhaps they have. School indoctrination has produced a more conformist society and a better military. This is why the the US has adopted the prussian style of schooling. However this is about achieving conformity and obedience.

Society almost everywhere still uses punishment for crimes. So from a purely evolutionary perspective, it must be effective at some level.

[–]NativeInterface 0ポイント1ポイント  (6子コメント)

Yes, to my understanding punishment is a way to rule with fear, and this seems to be a working strategy. But it does not make people fundamentally understand the concept of right and wrong. It depends on what your goal is.

[–]aletoledo 0ポイント1ポイント  (5子コメント)

But it does not make people fundamentally understand the concept of right and wrong.

Does a rewards based system (e.g. welfare) help people understand morality? Are the democrats and Sanders supporters more in tune with morality than republicans and Trump supporters?

I think from a strictly objective point of view, punishment and rewards each have their pluses and minuses.

[–]NativeInterface 0ポイント1ポイント  (4子コメント)

Welfare is not a reward, it's bribery, or at best your stolen goods returned to you. An actual reward would be a smile or a thank you.

[–]aletoledo 0ポイント1ポイント  (3子コメント)

at best your stolen goods returned to you

thats state welfare. There is still the possibility of private welfare being a reward. I agree, a reward system of obedience is tantamount to bribery.

[–]NativeInterface 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

Punishments and rewards are responses to behavior. Private welfare seems like the behavior itself, not the reward for the behavior. If you want to go that route, we could look at profit as a reward. You are rewarded with money for creating something of value in a market.

[–]bpg609 0ポイント1ポイント  (9子コメント)

why did you bring up circumcision?

[–]aletoledo 1ポイント2ポイント  (8子コメント)

It's physically violent and a violation of the NAP. It leaves more lasting physical damage as compared to spanking. Just imagine if you tried to circumcise your neighbor, people would freak out.

[–]bpg609 -4ポイント-3ポイント  (7子コメント)

....

wat?

It's a fucking medical procedure, like a vaccine, which I'm also not sure why you mentioned.

I am proudly circumcised and glad I am. Foreskin is nasty.

Circumcising an adult neighbor without their consent != circumcising a newborn infant.

Is cutting the umbilical cord also a violation of NAP? Jesus, the amount of autism in this thread...

[–]R_Hak 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Spanked and circumcised, here. Proud of both.

[–]damienhr 2ポイント3ポイント  (4子コメント)

It's a fucking medical procedure

It's an unnecessary genital mutilation that kills hundreds of boys every year and leaves you open for erectile dysfunction, you blithering idiot.

[–]bpg609 -2ポイント-1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Lol.

[–]bpg609 -2ポイント-1ポイント  (2子コメント)

Nope, medical procedure. Ask any doctor.

[–]TheSelfGoverned 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

It was actually created by the Roman Catholic Church in order to try and prevent teenage boys from touching themselves (by destroying/reducing nerves and sensation). It has nothing to do with medicine.

I can't believe you bought into that bullshit, hah!

Circumcision did not become a common medical procedure in the Anglophone world until the late 19th century.[86] At that time, British and American doctors began recommending it primarily as a deterrent to masturbation.[86][87] Prior to the 20th century, masturbation was believed to be the cause of a wide range of physical and mental illnesses including epilepsy, paralysis, impotence, gonorrhea, tuberculosis, feeblemindedness, and insanity.[88][89] In 1855, motivated in part by an interest in promoting circumcision to reduce masturbation, English physician Jonathan Hutchinson published his findings that Jews had a lower prevalence of certain venereal diseases.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circumcision#History

We declined the procedure for our son, and our nurse congratulated us for "making the right choice".

[–]bpg609 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

ROFL. You do know Jews have been circumcising LONG before Catholicism even existed?

You basically just copy and pasted one paragraph out of context without copying the full history that goes back thousands of years.

I can't believe you bought into that bullshit, hah!

[–]aletoledo 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

It's a fucking medical procedure,

Just because you label something as "medical" doesn't change the fact that it's physically violent. At one point lobotomies were considered a valid medical procedure and now they're not. So objectively these things are violence, regardless of what we subjectively want to call them. After all, these subjective labels are just mechanisms to justify our actions.

Circumcising an adult neighbor without their consent != circumcising a newborn infant.

Coincidentally, I think a lot of society would agree that spanking a child is different than spanking a neighbor. So if there is a difference between two human beings, then we should explore what that difference might be.

Is cutting the umbilical cord also a violation of NAP? Jesus, the amount of autism in this thread...

I think you mistake my position. I'm pro-spanking. I'm also pro-circumcision and pro-whatever the parents want to do with their children.

[–]LOST_TALE[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Spanking is pervasive. Quit your bubble.

If we presume that more children nowadays haven't been spanked

[–]NativeInterface 1ポイント2ポイント  (4子コメント)

I was never spanked as far as i know, and my parents were not strict at all. I believe their parenting contributed to me instinctively feeling in my gut that something was wrong with being forced to go to school and obey authority all day. But unfortunately i thought this meant that i was the problem, that i was weird, that i was unnatural. I felt like an alien being abducted by humans. I knew i didn't belong there. This was really damaging to my confidence. Every time someone gave me as little as a confused look, for any reason, i got an exaggerated feeling of being weird and not being part of them, so i didn't make many friends. I skipped school a lot, not doing crazy shit with friends, but just staying home or pretending to be sick, doing nothing, and feeling guilty about it. Shitty grades, family relations going to shit, because i didn't know what to tell them, and they couldn't figure out why i couldn't adapt.

I didn't even adapt in higher education levels, it just felt more cold, hostile and demanding. Eventually i went to an adult education college, which had many other misfits, mostly in late teens and early 20's, but it had all ages, but where the staff actually treated you like a human being. Even if there were people addicted to drugs and with ankle monitors, there was very rarely any trouble, no destruction of property as i was used to seeing in public schools, no graffiti or vandalism. It was a positive place where students were highly respected, and this allowed me to build up my confidence and turn my life around. I even became somewhat popular.

But it was not until many years later i read the works of John Taylor Gatto that i realized i was right all along, and that the system was wrong and unnatural. If only anyone would have simply explained this to me back then, a large part of my life would not have been such a shitty hell of confusion and self-doubt.

[–]LOST_TALE[S] 1ポイント2ポイント  (3子コメント)

But unfortunately i thought this meant that i was the problem, that i was weird, that i was unnatural. I felt like an alien being abducted by humans.

Terrible shit happened to you. 1. damn authoritarians 2. Parents weren't good enough for you to tell them as is.

Being superior, I would always defer to myself. everyone else made a fool of themselves. Perhaps not having outstanding mental prowess leads you to defer to others?

[–]NativeInterface 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

I assume my parents went through a much stricter school system, and thought of it as normal. If i was in their shoes, i probably would have been confused too, and not understood why my son couldn't adapt when everyone else can, including themselves. I can only blame them for being ignorant, and not understanding what was going on. I couldn't figure out how to explain it to them, but i'm not blaming myself for any of it either. I only blame the people who implemented the indoctrination system and put it into law which created this abnormal culture.

[–]LOST_TALE[S] 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

Freedom outgrows authoritarian backgrounds. Haven't seen the reverse.

If only we had a lot of time, I'd be easy.

[–]NativeInterface 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Freedom outgrows authoritarian backgrounds.

It seems you're right. Considering the way my parents [were raised] and their schooling, you would think they would have been much more strict and coercive, but for some reason they weren't. This gives me hope.

Edit: I accidentally a word.

[–]True_Kapernicus 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Looking back, I can see how smacking and such authoritarian methods would definitely encourages the belief in authority in children. Fortunately for me, the effect was limited in that respect. I can still see other faults that it encourages, such as the unwillingness to admit fault or apologise. The argument that punishment is got because it means that people learn to associate a negative outcome with certain actions falls there - all it does is teach people to hide from the problem and hope that people forget about it like a parent might if you make yourself scarce whilst they're angry. It hampers the development of conscience by giving responsibility to someone else. The same goes for forcing a child to apologise, rather than trying to explain to them and suggest that they do it themselves. Obviously, when they are very young they might have difficulty understanding, but hitting does not increase one's clarity. Children learn by example and hitting them teaches them that violence is the correct response to actions they consider wrong.

[–]Khyrberos 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

I voted for "Yes & I'm glad they did"; while my own viewpoint on the matter is still currently being fleshed out (haha) with my burgeoning family, I think spanking, properly understood & applied, is a fine punishment for otherwise intractable youths.

Thing is, it's not about causing pain so much as surprise. If it's done in anger then it's definitely in the wrong, but done as a form of punition (word? Punitive-ness...ish) it has merit.

On the other hand, I have yet to figure out a way to help children discriminate between "spanking = OK" but "hitting =! OK", since to a child it would essentially boil down to "hitting is OK sometimes". The subtlety is lost on children, methinks... And I wonder if it should be 'lost on us' as well.

[–]Zuimei 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

I'm not in favor of spanking at all, but when my dad did he never used that as the only punishment. The main punishment for me was him lecturing for an hour or two straight about what I had done wrong. And once I got big enough that the only way spanking would get my attention would be to literally abuse me he dropped it all together and just lectured. So I guess when used in conjunction with talking to your kids about what they did wrong it could possibly work, but I still think you'd get preferable results by just talking to them.

[–]Khyrberos 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Similarly here; sorry, didn't bother to talk more about it, but spanking was only one small tool in their box; "the talk" was a big part of that, too.

[–]Sanatna 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Twice in my whole life. Once when I ran across the street as a toddler and nearly got hit by a car, and once when I walked out of the house with my dog when I was two and my dad found us a few blocks away. Other than that I was a pretty good if somewhat boring child.

[–]Absant 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

No, and I'm glad they didn't. My parents had a strict non-spanking policy. Instead we used negotiation and our brains to work our problems out. I think that helped turn me into a harder working, more intelligent person. I think it helped me develop empathy as well.

[–]bpg609 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

yes, depending in their mood. they were both busy and worked a lot to support the family and pay our mortgage. if they had a stressful day, spanking was almost guaranteed. it wouldn't take much. sometimes just breathing too loudly when they were trying to "relax" earned a spanking. I pretty much lived in fear until I finally reached that age where I could fight back. I also had physically abusive older siblings who were given complete authority over me when my parents were preoccupied. my house was ruled by physical violence. It's a surprise I didn't grow up to become a statist as Molyneux would have predicted. I think my fear of physical violence led me to become a libertarian because only libertarians preach nonviolence.

[–]R_Hak -1ポイント0ポイント  (1子コメント)

It's a surprise I didn't grow up to become a statist as Molyneux would have predicted.

Congrats. You are the x +1 case his bullshit is falsified.

[–]bpg609 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Show respect to Molyneux.

[–]zoink 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I need a "Yes, and I don't really care that they did." If I have kids I probably won't, but I don't think people that do are evil.

[–]DeAristoi 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Special snowflake answer:

They did once and regretted it, but we both think it was somewhat positive.

I think it was because my brother and I called 911 and made a fart noise or something and they showed up at the front door.

[–]TheOrangeEvil 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I was spanked. Never hard, though. Just a few swats on the ass. It also didn't happen very often. Maybe 5-6 times throughout my whole childhood. I don't really see the point of spanking, but I hold no ill will toward my parents for it.

When my mother was little, she called her sister a "liar." That triggered my grandfather for whatever reason. He hit her on the ass over and over so hard that she was black and blue afterward. This would've been maybe 1958. My parents never hit me like that. That would be child abuse now. (For what it's worth, he wasn't violent or a wife beater or anything like that. He just had some probably fairly typical views on parenting of someone born in the 1920s.) She realized as an adult that that was totally unacceptable for a parent to do to a small child and I'm thankful for that, but she still thought spanking was a useful tool. I don't know. I think I was a pretty good kid and would've been fine without being hit.

[–]Admiral_Yang_Wen-li 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Nope. They were Hippie socialists, but great parents. Once, when I was about 7 I threw a fit in a restaurant. We left the restaurant since I was being a little shit and my dad pushed me out towards the car and I fell over. He felt terrible about that and told me so the next day. That was the only time they ever used physical force with me.

Very pacifist parents. Wonderful people. And I ended up fine. Currently working towards a degree in a field that I love (Statistics and Machine Learning) at an elite university, so things are going well.

[–]R_Hak -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

Stupid