全 39 件のコメント

[–]Lepew1 2ポイント3ポイント  (17子コメント)

Here is alt-right. It basically is Trump. But it is a muddy water. They cite being against immigration, multi-culturalism, feminism, and egalitarianism as alt-right. I think it is a pretty stupid definition because I bet even a lot of Trump supporters would have issue with some of that. A far more useful way of asking this would be to ask non-Trump supporters.

Now the whole fantasy of war propaganda on WW2 is garbage. Ike made the German people in person visit the concentration camps so they would always remember them and not associate them with propaganda, and he made the reporters for the news service cover them for history. The push to think of this as fantasy comes from Muslim holocaust deniers who wish to exterminate Jews. Most people do not get that Aryan and Iran are connected

But OK let's jump down the holocaust denying rabbit hole, and pretend all of the vast documentation in the holocaust museum is just garbage. You have to really suspend a lot of rationality to get there, but we are donning tin foil hats here.

Would my view of man change? No. Clearly there are other huge stretches of history such as where Saddam Hussein gassed Kurds and tossed them in mass graves that underscore how bad mankind is. Idi Amin, Pol Pot and others drive home how bad things can get when one man has control, and that man is a twisted amoral piece of garbage.

Now how would this affect my opinion on the "establishment", which for me only is a useful term in the context of "establishment means those people who use crony capitalism to hold political power, and largely ignore the representative duties of the voters". Not sure what is going on here.

So lets just chalk this question up to someone with a bunch of drugs in their bloodstream spouting nonsense and move on.

[–]docclarPaleoconservative 1ポイント2ポイント  (8子コメント)

But OK let's jump down the holocaust denying rabbit hole, and pretend all of the vast documentation in the holocaust museum is just garbage. You have to really suspend a lot of rationality to get there, but we are donning tin foil hats here.

serious question: do you think holocaust deniers deny that the camps existed?

[–]Lepew1 0ポイント1ポイント  (7子コメント)

If you take them at their words, yes. Denying the camps existed was a common theme. A newer theme is arguing the numbers.

[–]docclarPaleoconservative 0ポイント1ポイント  (6子コメント)

it seems like you didn't read what you linked to me:

Common denial assertions are: that the murder of six million Jews during World War II never occurred; that the Nazis had no official policy or intention to exterminate the Jews; and that the poison gas chambers in Auschwitz-Birkenau death camp never existed.

no one denies the camps existed. the reason why people get sucked down the hole towards denialism is because they find a few lies or exaggerations, then start assuming everything is a lie. being so inaccurate about what these people actually believe feeds into that.

be better than that, don't encourage denialism of something like this because you're lazy.

[–]Lepew1 0ポイント1ポイント  (5子コメント)

I am confused. I think we agree. There are some who deny. The link to the holocaust site establishes that. The outright denial was more common in the past, and now the trend seems to be arguing numbers.

[–]docclarPaleoconservative 0ポイント1ポイント  (4子コメント)

There are some who deny.

my point is that you are claiming holocaust deniers believe that these camps did not exist, when that is false, and your link didn't support your point.

at no point did holocaust deniers claim this as far as i am aware. i am pointing out that by lying about this you make it more likely that people will distrust conventional history when they see people who support it lying.

[–]Lepew1 0ポイント1ポイント  (3子コメント)

The part you quoted said that COMMON denial assertions are the murder of 6 million Jews never occured. I am assuming because they used the word common, more than 1 whacko-bird held this view. IF the holocaust museum's claims are not enough, here is wiki

Holocaust denial is the act of denying the genocide of Jews and other groups in the Holocaust during World War II.[1] Holocaust denial often includes the following claims: that Nazi Germany's Final Solution was aimed only at deporting Jews from the Reich, but that it did not include the extermination of Jews; that Nazi authorities did not use extermination camps and gas chambers to mass murder Jews; and that the actual number of Jews killed was significantly (typically an order of magnitude) lower than the historically accepted figure of 5 to 6 million.[2][3][4]

Here is another reference from the Jewish Virtual Library

One of the most notable anti-Semitic propaganda movements to develop over the past two decades has been the organized effort to deny or minimize the established history of Nazi genocide against the Jews. In the United States, the movement has been known in recent years primarily through the publication of editorial-style advertisements in college campus newspapers. The first of these ads claimed to call for "open debate on the Holocaust"; it purported to question not the fact of Nazi anti-Semitism, but merely whether this hatred resulted in an organized killing program. A more recent ad has questioned the authenticity of the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum in Washington, DC. These ads have been published in several dozen student newspapers on campuses across the country.

Similar propaganda has established a beachhead on the computer Internet. In addition to creating their own home pages, Holocaust deniers have sometimes "crashed" the sites of legitimate Holocaust and Jewish discussion groups in a blatant effort at anti, Jewish provocation and self-promotion. Additionally, Holocaust deniers have advertised their Web sites by purchasing innocuous-sounding, inconspicuous classified ads in college and community newspapers.

Holocaust denial is the act of denying the genocide of Jews and other groups in the Holocaust during World War II.[1] Holocaust denial often includes the following claims: that Nazi Germany's Final Solution was aimed only at deporting Jews from the Reich, but that it did not include the extermination of Jews; that Nazi authorities did not use extermination camps and gas chambers to mass murder Jews; and that the actual number of Jews killed was significantly (typically an order of magnitude) lower than the historically accepted figure of 5 to 6 million.[2][3][4]

You will see throughout these references that actual denial of the murder of Jews is occurring, which backs my point. There are some who are denying this.

[–]docclarPaleoconservative 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

great, so please stop characterizing their argument as denying that the camps existed. they agree with mainstream historians on the vast majority on aspects of what happened, and use people being inaccurate about what happened or about their claims as fuel for their arguments- thus being very specific and accurate is critical.

actually reading their arguments and understanding them will help you better counter them. knowing what aspects have hard, incontrovertible evidence supporting them and what aspects are based on circumstantial or testimonial evidence that should be subject to scrutiny is critical.

[–]Lepew1 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

But some do deny camps exist. That is the point. Some are in such a bubble they really think that. There is no reasoning with that.

[–]docclarPaleoconservative 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

no they don't. in the interest of fairness i have read extensively from denialist material, and none of them (that i have seen, i don't claim omniscience) deny the existence of the camps. they often use personal visits and photos they took as part of their arguments lol.

if you don't understand their arguments, you will be unable to counter them.

this is analogous to the typical view of nazi germany - most people simply do not understand why the german people seemingly went insane...or at best have some vague sense that leftover grievances from WW1 were at the heart of it.

most people failing to understand how eminently reasonable people like the germans can end up doing something so UNreasonable basically guarantees that we will see similar patterns repeat.

when you understand the other side well enough to make a convincing argument for their world view, THEN you know the subject. as much as i detest denialism i can make a convincing case for it...but then also talk people out of it.

[–]HonorableJudgeHoldenNational Socialist[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (6子コメント)

The alt-right existed long before Trump - they just happen to almost all support him for saying he'd restore the very controversial political notion of "nation with border sovereignty." Also you responded to the wrong person about "what the alt right is."

[–]Lepew1 0ポイント1ポイント  (5子コメント)

That wasn't a response, but a definition that I was basing my response upon. I am sure there are a million different special snowflake interpretations of what alt-right is, so I thought it important to cite the one I was using.

I agree with you that some of the issues in that grab bag I linked are long standing ones prior to Trump. But really think about it. I am a Cruz supporter. A nation with a border and sovereignty matters a great deal to me. I think we have crossed a line in subsuming our Constitution and assimilating as Americans to multi-culturalism, but I can tolerate variety and flavors as long as we all hold to the Constitution. Where does that put me in alt-right? Not sure. Feminism had roots in real problems, but if you look to the modern day feminists who ignore personal accountability and blame men for all of their problems, we have a laughable embodiment of a once reasoned movement. The same can be said for the civil rights movement, and unions. All had real abuses early on that great and dramatic progress against was made, and now they tend to focus on a lot of silly stuff such as is it racist to profit from foods of other cultures. Clearly real racism exists, but the amount of idiocy that is perceived as real cause now renders the movements laughable.

Egalitarianism is the all men are created equal value. I think even Trump supporters are not anti-egalitarianism. As a nationalist, egalitarianism resonates across our nation's history, and would be something you champion. Are they saying Trump supporters in lock-step view in divine right and rule by bloodline?

So this grab bag of views is fairly inconsistent, and there are ranges within those issues where any reasoning human can side with opposition to either extreme. Thus the alt-right is a useless term in my mind, and rather than pointing to Trump as alt-right, it would be clearer to ask Trump supporters, and non-Trump supporters. Or if barring that, you would say "Nationalists" instead of "alt-right" as that is more direct and has more relevance to the discussion.

[–]HonorableJudgeHoldenNational Socialist[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (4子コメント)

I am sure there are a million different special snowflake interpretations of what alt-right is, so I thought it important to cite the one I was using.

Trump isn't alt-right - the alt-right is almost ubiquitously unified by unabashed embrace of ethnic white identity - beyond that it's quite desperate. The alt-right supports Trump, not the other way around.

subsuming our Constitution and assimilating as Americans to multi-culturalism, but I can tolerate variety and flavors as long as we all hold to the Constitution. Where does that put me in alt-right?

It doesn't - we're almost all ethnic identitarians or, at the very least, European cultural supremacists (not the EUSSR). You're a standard constitutional conservative.

I think even Trump supporters are not anti-egalitarianism

Most aren't, the alt-right is - that's why Trump isn't alt-right.

[–]Lepew1 0ポイント1ポイント  (3子コメント)

OK thanks for the info on alt-right. There does seem to be a common theme here.

Some immigration, no problem. Wide open immigration, problem.

Some multi-culturalism, no problem. Subsuming what we have all in common to multiculturalism, problem.

Solving real problems like sexual trafficking of women, no problem. Spending energy pursuing wage gap and ignoring sex traffic, problem.

Equality of opportunity, no problem. Equality of outcome, problem.

All of these things have ranges, and I can see where a backlash against it going to far one way is justified. Am a bit leary over branding this ethnic white identity though.

[–]HonorableJudgeHoldenNational Socialist[S] 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

The one thing that is going to set the alt-right apart from anything America has seen is that it is international in character as a result of being spawned mostly on the internet. As a result, more the American ethnic identitarians in the alt-right are frequently far more European than American in character - or a new blend of the two. It's allowed people from all over Christendom to meet and talk about the open war being waged on the west by leftist interests. If you want to take a dive into the cesspools of it, you can check out 4chan's /pol/ - it's not a place for extended serious discussion - but it's a place where we people from all over the world blow off steam.

If you start spreading mainstream American conservatism there, prepare to be dog-piled by Europeans, Slavs and dissident Americans though :-)

[–]Lepew1 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

If you start spreading mainstream American conservatism there, prepare to be dog-piled by Europeans, Slavs and dissident Americans though :-)

nope, not going to do that. Interesting take on where this comes from.

[–]HonorableJudgeHoldenNational Socialist[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Am a bit leary over branding this ethnic white identity though.

What's "this?" Alt-right existed before Trump - Trump is not alt-right - he's just anti-establishment populist akin to Teddy Roosevelt in his views and policy proposals.

Fair enough though, there are portions that some people call "alt-right" that are not particularly grounded in European ethnic identity. There are so-called "pro-male" or something who mostly base their identity on some conception of hypermasculinity. I'm hesitant to lump them inherently in with the right though because they tend to support extreme sexual degeneracy like heavy philandering and that kind of stuff. Some people consider them "the right" though I guess because they define themselves in opposition to feminism. Here's a probably better done article than I can come up with. I stick to those with European ethnic/cultural interests so I guess I probably just have a biased perception of the groups involved with what has been lumped into "the alt-right."

In reality, the white identitarians are the real right as has always existed in European culture - secure in their European ethnic and cultural identity and strongly supportive of it and un-needing and uninterested in the tolerance, acceptance, or emotional support of non-whites. The contemporary "mainstream conservatives" are leftists who crawl to their Jewish masters on hands and foot asking for forgiveness every time they speak out of turn. It's the most pathetic sight you've ever seen when you think about it.

[–]BcTsarIvanLibertarian Conservative 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Here is alt-right. It basically is Trump.

No that isn't it really. Most people that consider themselves alt-right are Trump supporters but most Trump supporters are not alt-right and neither is Trump himself.

[–]OneSalientOversightSocial Democrat 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

How would you feel if the holocaust actually happened, and the reason the vast majority of modern historians say it happened was because the evidence was absolutely clear?

And that has nothing to do with Hollywood.

[–]HonorableJudgeHoldenNational Socialist[S] -2ポイント-1ポイント  (0子コメント)

How would you feel if the holocaust actually happened, and the reason the vast majority of modern historians say it happened was because the evidence was absolutely clear?

Indifferent generally. The Jewish people have made it absolutely clear they're the dedicated enemy of all Ethnic European people - with their current campaign of ethnic replacement in Europe and the Anglosphere it appears their position towards Ethnic European is "it's you or us." I certainly wouldn't cease to be an advocate of National Socialism and am more than satisfied that most of the charges the NSDAP laid against the Jewish people were accurate enough and more than enough just cause for considering them an internal enemy population (5th Column).

[–]diversity_is_racism 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Would it change your position towards the US Republican Establishment if it were shown that "Nazi gas chambers" were completely a fiction of Soviet, British, and US propaganda?

No, because I already know that the World Wars were exactly what they were portrayed as: a seizure of power by Leftist forces fighting advance democracy and smash down elements of older power. World War II was an extension of the Napoleonic Wars.

Regarding the Holocaust, I see the official number has tumbled from six million to somewhere around four million. I also note that most of the killings occurred outside German territory by non-Germans, mostly in the Baltics and Eastern Europe where Jews were blamed for Communism because of their high participation in it.

I also see this stack of data:

It cannot be denied that the relatively small Jewish population of the Weimar Republic posed an objective social problem to the German people. A third of the entire Jewish population lived in Berlin. “The average Jewish household income was three times that of the average Gentile family.” Over 75% earned a living from “trade, commerce, finance and the professions. While nearly a third of Germans worked on the land, barely 2% of Jews were farmers.” German farmers were nevertheless beholden to Jews because “the Jewish grain merchant and cattle dealer were ubiquitous in rural areas.” Jews “owned 40% of wholesale textile firms and fully two-thirds of wholesale and retail clothing outlets.” Almost 80% of department store turnover went into Jewish hands, and “Jews dominated the publishing industry.” Jews comprised “11% of Germany’s doctors, 13% of its attorneys and 16% of its lawyers.” In addition to this population of semi-assimilated, ascendant Jews, was a population of around 100,000 Ostjuden that were widely associated with importing “crime, vice, disease, and the spread of revolutionary ideas” from the East.

I have always believed Albert Speer that the German camps were part of a work program. The fact that all of the corpses appeared starved and diseased supports this and works against the idea of trains showing up and dumping Jews into gas chambers.

But, in my view, none of this matters.

If a population of the Other is under your care, you may deport them and exclude them from your society, but when you start to make them into the Enemy, you have set up the groundwork for mass murder.

It is fine and normal to say "Germany for Germans" but when that becomes "...by removing The Infernal Jew" then you have gone down the path of scapegoating, and that always ends in murder.

Something happened to Jews under German care. It should not have happened. I think we can all agree on that, and should not look further into this lugubrious issue.

We should also consider that world Leftism has been attempting to genocide Germans and every other unique ethnic population for several centuries. If the Germans had confined themselves to locking up Leftists and gassing them, we would celebrate that today.

[–]WhiteyDude 1ポイント2ポイント  (9子コメント)

Whats Non-alt -right conservatve?

My uncle was in the battle of the bulge, and was part of the forces that liberated jews from a camp. He had his own collection of photos that I've seen, there's nothing you could present to make me believe it didn't happen.

[–]OneSalientOversightSocial Democrat 4ポイント5ポイント  (6子コメント)

If I was a holocaust denier, I'd say that you're probably be a part of the conspiracy that keeps the truth from coming out.

But since I'm not you come across as a reasonable human being.

Conspiracy Theorists are responsible for so much crap. The Nazis were convinced that the Jews were trying to take over the world and destroy Germany based upon The Protocols of the Elders of Zion.

6 million Jews died because too many people believed in a conspiracy theory. If it happened then it can happen now.

[–]HonorableJudgeHoldenNational Socialist[S] -2ポイント-1ポイント  (5子コメント)

I'd say that you're probably be a part of the conspiracy that keeps the truth from coming out.

I am more or less a holocaust denier and I don't think he's part of any conspiracy. I just know he's wrong that his uncle could have seen any proof of gas chambers since there are no gas chambers claimed to be in camps the UK & US liberated - except one in Dachau was claimed but that has long been refuted and denied by mainstream historians. All the "Killing Centers" are claimed to have been in Poland which were all Soviet liberated.

[–]AZL94 -1ポイント0ポイント  (4子コメント)

How can you just ignore the countless images of the piles of dead bodies that were taken specifically to stop people from being able to deny that the event happened? If you can manage to deny something with that much evidence behind it then you can deny pretty much everything.

[–]HonorableJudgeHoldenNational Socialist[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (3子コメント)

How can you just ignore the countless images of the piles of dead bodies that were taken specifically to stop people from being able to deny that the event happened?

I haven't seen any photos of bodies killed in gas chambers - do you know of some?

[–]AZL94 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

Okay let's say you're completely right and the gas chambers were completely made up, why does that make any difference? The holocaust still happened beyond any reasonable doubt, millions of people still died horribly. What reason would the Allied forces have had to add that piece of fiction to an event that was more than horrifying enough already.

[–]HonorableJudgeHoldenNational Socialist[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

you're completely right and the gas chambers were completely made up, why does that make any difference? The holocaust still happened beyond any reasonable doubt

What? No - the holocaust is the systematic and intentional mass killing of Jews in gas chambers.

What reason would the Allied forces have had to add that piece of fiction to an event that was more than horrifying enough already.

You tell me... (no, no matter how terrified you are you can't deform solidified cement with your palm into the shape of your hand)

I know why they lied.

[–]AZL94 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

A quick look at the wikipedia article for it(thoroughly cited of course) tells me that the holocaust "was a genocide in which Adolf Hitler's Nazi Germany and its collaborators killed about six million Jews." Some definitions also include the murder of non-Jews as well.

Even if we discount the existence of gas chambers the wealth of evidence that the systematic murder of Jews happened includes countless photos, first hand accounts, actual death camps that remain standing and pretty much total worldwide academic consensus.

I don't understand how you can ignore so much clear and solid evidence.

[–]docclarPaleoconservative 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

not even the most fringe holocaust denier says that the camps didn't exist or that hundreds of thousands of people didn't die there, many by execution, many by starvation, and many by disease.

[–]HonorableJudgeHoldenNational Socialist[S] -4ポイント-3ポイント  (0子コメント)

He had his own collection of photos that I've seen, there's nothing you could present to make me believe it didn't happen.

That's not what I asked. No US/UK liberated any "death camps" - only Soviets - so I don't know how your uncle would be evidence of gas chambers at Battle of the Bulge. Unless you simply attribute Jews in concentration camps itself as an immense crime - which the US was no less guilty of with Japanese.

[–]MicahRaptorFree Market Conservative 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

It wasn't, so it's not even worth speculating.

The Holocaust happened. If someone is telling you differently, kick them in the dick and call them what they are - a Jew hating scumbag.

[–]HonorableJudgeHoldenNational Socialist[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

If someone is telling you differently, kick them in the dick and call them what they are - a Jew hating scumbag.

We're not talking about me here - I more or less know what I already think though I'm open to persuasion. Screaming "antisemitism" isn't an effective argument about anything in my book any more than screaming "homophobe" or "racist" or "transphobe" or "islamophobe" or "misogynist" or "witch" or "heretic" or "blasphemer" or any other politically correct ad hominem thought-terminating cliche.

[–]saxophonefartmasterConstitutionalist -1ポイント0ポイント  (4子コメント)

You sound like one of those people who berates anyone who watches the news because "it's all lies, open your eyes!" but will buy absolutely any theory you read over in /r/conspiracy.

[–]HonorableJudgeHoldenNational Socialist[S] 2ポイント3ポイント  (3子コメント)

You sound like one of those people who berates anyone who watches the news because "it's all lies, open your eyes!"

Why would you watch the news? These are organizations that literally consider Paris Hilton more interesting than actual events of consequence - I just read articles (from all sorts of sources - mainstream and alternative and kooky fringe and credible fringe) and don't own a TV. Regardless, I was asking a question - not making an assertion.

[–]saxophonefartmasterConstitutionalist -1ポイント0ポイント  (2子コメント)

Yep, you're a troll.

[–]HonorableJudgeHoldenNational Socialist[S] 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

I just asked a question and you decided to attack me over it and compare me to /r/Conspiracy which is obviously quite out there with a lot of stuff they put on there. You're the only one trolling as you're derailing the topic of the thread which is "what would you think differently if you did find out gas chambers were a lie?"

This is a question that tries to determine how much the Holocaust narrative plays a role in your contemporary political positions - if you found out there were no gas chambers like we found out there was no lampshades and no soap - how would you view the political world differently?

How would you view the world differently if you found out the Holodomor was a lie? Or the Armenian genocide? Would these impact your political views as well?

For example, I would have no nicer feelings towards Bolshevism if they never killed a single person and only accomplished what they did through rhetoric and persuasion and the Holodomor was made up by their enemies.

[–]SchwarzeSonne_Medievalist 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

anyone who has an opinion outside the expected norms is a troll