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Post-Episode Discussion: S05E18 "Ruby Slippers" (self.OnceUponATime)

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[–]Thief-NoctisMay you always run free beneath the moon's pale light 40ポイント41ポイント  (52子コメント)

Okay, I need a therapist and ten different kinds of counselling right now.

Copy and pasted from somewhere else I commented: 'I... what was that? One episode of a completely forced relationship for the sake of 'plot twist'? Dorothy had no reason to be in the show except her sexuality. That is literally the worst kind of character. Mulan had no reason to be in the show except to literally tell Red 'don't make my mistakes'. She deserves so much better. And now they've all been written off, I assume, since they're still in Oz and Snow didn't take Red back to Storybrooke with her.

On the plus side, Red didn't die!'

This episode pained me so much. Not only was I disappointed for Mulan who's got the short end of the stick again, but we just had an entire relationship arc shoved in our faces over the course of one episode. Where's the same development that they afford to Captain Swan? Rumbelle? Snowing? Hell, even Outlaw Queen has more development than that, and they barely have more than a couple of minutes screen time per season. Okay, I get it: Red is a secondary character (Dorothy doesn't even deserve that title with her ten minutes of screen time before getting a TLK). But why does that have to mean the relationship is portrayed in the most unrealistic way possible? As much as the writers like to pretend otherwise, this isn't a show just about Disney. We don't want the 'true love in a day' (or literally in few hours, in this case) trope. I wanted to scratch my eyes out at that timeframe.

Also, what happened to Hades' threat of 'I'm going to take care of that wolf'? I was agonising over that all week, and it turns out all he wanted to do was liquefy an old woman.

Argh. I both loved and hated this episode. I was so looking forward to getting Red back, but now they've clearly written her off so she can skip into the green sunset with Dorothy and their mascot Mulan.

I had so many thoughts about Rumbelle and Captain Charming and Zelena/Belle and even most of the Red scenes I absolutely adored, but... I think I just died a little inside. It's 2:30am and I don't have the energy to be anything but mortified.

[–]Staple_Sauce 23ポイント24ポイント  (28子コメント)

From what I can tell, the reaction to this episode is split 3 ways between:

  • LGBT people upset that the "representation" was so tokenized
  • homophobes upset that they'll have to explain homosexuality to their children who watch the show (currently these make up the top-rated comments on the Facebook post for this show)
  • well-meaning straight people praising OUAT for including gay characters without realizing that the manner in which they did it was questionable at best

I'm grateful that they actually did a TLK. That part was great (and it doesn't hurt that I got to see Meghan Ory kiss a girl....that woman is a dream). That said, I'm mostly in Camp #1.

[–]Thief-NoctisMay you always run free beneath the moon's pale light 10ポイント11ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'm grateful that they actually did a TLK. That part was great (and it doesn't hurt that I got to see Meghan Ory kiss a girl....that woman is a dream). That said, I'm mostly in Camp #1.

Pretty much me throughout the whole episode, once I overlooked how forced it was. Gotta love her. Red needs more screen time. And to preferably not leave Granny cooking meatloaf back at the diner for eternity.

[–]sbazcml 5ポイント6ポイント  (4子コメント)

I really liked that they took a LGBT relationship and handled it the same way as a 'normal' relationship. I am gay and I feel like some gay people spread the word out that a gay relationship is different than a straight one...

[–]Staple_Sauce 7ポイント8ポイント  (2子コメント)

I think in terms of the dynamics and the process of falling in love, they handled that well. However it was rushed in a way that straight relationships rarely are. We went from "just met" to "true love's kiss" in about 25 total minutes of screentime, and I'm not positive that they'll even continue to be on the show.

Even the U-Haul-lesbians don't move that quick. :P

[–]sbazcml 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

Hahaha U-Haul

That's true I do feel like they just threw it in their to throw a gay storyline in there instead of building a real relationship and now Ruby and Dorothy will probably never be heard from again.:(

[–]__your__name__here__ 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

I agree that their relationship was rushed and seemed kind of thrown in, but it did kind of align with Disney and all the "love at first sight" they like to use. We haven't seen that quite as much in this show so it was a little surprising, but some of the relationships have moved pretty quickly (Zelena and Hades recently, assuming Hades is being honest in his feelings and not just manipulating Zelena, I'm still not sure).

[–]jazminerose 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Exactly how I feel. The other characters didn't make it a big deal about it. Even if the relationship was a little forced. It did give me butterflies to see Ruby realize where she wanted to be.

[–]charredgrass 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yeah, I'm Camp 1 too. I'm kind of happy to have another bi character but I think that this was way too rushed. And the kiss was nice too, I wasn't expecting that at all. The making out they did after TLK really surprised me (the fact they're taking that risk)

[–]Batsignal_on_mars 5ポイント6ポイント  (12子コメント)

Are the FB comments bad? I'm addicted to reading homophobe outrage because I'm a sadist, but I should really head to bed

[–]Staple_Sauce 6ポイント7ポイント  (1子コメント)

Pretty awful, yep!

[–]sanguine_aubergineHe smells like forest 2ポイント3ポイント  (4子コメント)

Don't go. I read some, was instantly filled with rage, attempted to reply but had to delete my comment because there's no point in arguing with stupid. I can't.

[–]Batsignal_on_mars 0ポイント1ポイント  (3子コメント)

I did and now I'm sad. But also damn, I want to know what shows these guys are watching where gay stuff is always shoved down their throats? I'd love for new shows to watch!

[–]thrntnja 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

If you're looking for a show that's done a LGBT ship well (in my opinion), especially if you've read Cassandra Clare's Mortal Instruments book series, I highly recommend Shadowhunters on freeform. It starts out rough, but the last few episodes are great, and the LBGT ship in that show was handled really well IMO.

[–]Batsignal_on_mars 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

I keep meaning to watch that! I remember way back when when CC was most infamous for her Draco in Leather Pants so I just have to check out this series of hers.

[–]thrntnja 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I mean, it's YA fiction, though I still find it good. People bash on her writing all the time, but I think some of it is unwarranted. She has a couple of series out all in the same universe if you like the Mortal Instruments.

You might be better off watching the show before reading the books, mainly so the differences between the two don't annoy you. There's a LGBT ship in both the books and the show, though, and in my opinion, it's much better in the show believe it or not.

[–]__your__name__here__ 1ポイント2ポイント  (4子コメント)

They're pretty terrible, I can't stop reading them! I've never met people that are that hateful and homophobic, but they do exist and they are out in full force on facebook.

[–]Batsignal_on_mars 14ポイント15ポイント  (2子コメント)

My favourite is how many of them are pissed because they have to explain it to their kids now. The rape, violence, torture, and het sexuality and sex jokes was par for course, but two girls mack for ten seconds and now their kids are ruined.

[–]__your__name__here__ 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

Right?! I love everyone responding with those types of comments, like the murder, violence, etc aligned just fine with their lifestyle and family values but two girls kissing is just crossing a line. And how they all think their family not watching anymore is going to totally ruin the show

[–]Yukito_097 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

"Oh god, now I have to be a parent and answer any questions my kid might raise! How dare you involve me in my child's life?!"

[–]pigsqueaks 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

I clicked on several of the top ones just to see what kind of people these were....look at the states these people are from its heavily bible belt 1800's America that refuse to grow up. It's like you are 1000% more likely to be a hater if no person would ever willingly go to visit your city/state.

[–]sanguine_aubergineHe smells like forest 7ポイント8ポイント  (2子コメント)

Accurate description of reactions to this episode. I just read some of the hateful comments on the OUAT official Facebook page and it made me lose hope in humanity.

[–]sbazcml 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

diving down that rabbit hole gave me all kinds of feels. Laughing at them at first then realizing these horrible people were serious. Took everything I had not to comment on every dumb post.

[–]sanguine_aubergineHe smells like forest 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

I couldn't stop reading them and now I am really bummed and just sad imagining these people telling their kids the episode tonight was "disgusting" and they can't watch it anymore. It makes me sad for the show and humanity in general. I want to comment SO BAD.

[–]Yukito_097 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

My reaction honestly has nothing to do with the relationship being gay. It was just forced - gay or straight, a forced relationship is always bad writing.

[–]hadtoomuchtodream 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

I didn't watch the show at the time, but did people react this way after it came out that Mulan is into women?

[–]Staple_Sauce 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

With Mulan it was intentionally ambiguous. They've avoided using pronouns when talking about exactly who she was in love with, so as a result a lot of people think she was about to tell Aurora that she was in love with Philip.

[–]__your__name__here__ 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Honestly that's what I thought when I first watched it. I can see how it can go either way, but I originally thought Mulan had fallen in love with Philip while she was trying to help him save Aurora. I don't think we'll ever find out for sure, but I hope Mulan comes back and finds her happy ending!

[–]maugrimmLove is sacrifice. 11ポイント12ポイント  (7子コメント)

The only way I will ever, ever be happy with this is if they bring back Aurora and Sleeping Warrior finally becomes a thing.

Stop laughing everyone, I know two LGBT relationships is clearly ridiculous.

[–]Thief-NoctisMay you always run free beneath the moon's pale light 15ポイント16ポイント  (3子コメント)

My poor heart is still longing for Red x Mulan. Or at the very least a developed Red x Dorothy. A couple of cute nicknames and one piggyback ride isn't really gonna cut it.

[–]sanguine_aubergineHe smells like forest 11ポイント12ポイント  (1子コメント)

Yeah they definitely wrote some cute scenes between Red and Mulan...I didn't imagine that right?

[–]Batsignal_on_mars 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

Their first meeting was like standard adorable couple fare

[–]maugrimmLove is sacrifice. 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

Not gonna lie I'm Sleeping Warrior from way back but I can totally see Red x Mulan developing and at least they've been around the show for a while even if shoved into the background an they are fan favorites.

I don't think I can ever care about Dorothy x Anyone because lets be honest there is a good chance season 6 is our last and A+E aren't suddenly going to become the bastion of extended well thought out LGBT storylines.

Prove me wrong guys, prove me wrong!

[–]akielos 4ポイント5ポイント  (2子コメント)

Same!!!

I'm headcanonning that we were supposed to ship Mulan/Merida in The Bear King since Mulan had insane chemistry with both Merida and Ruby. First thing I did after watching was rush to IMDB to see if Mulan appears in more episodes so I can start developing a Mulan/Merida conspiracy theory. lol I can't believe the OUAT writers were so out of touch with fandom that they thought people would get excited for Ruby/Dorothy.

[–]African_Lorelord 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Merilan...sounds like a fine seaworthy vessel, aye.

I don't think the writers think of us at all, except when they're being oiled reminded by their sex slaves interns during their bdsm orgies storyboard meetings.

[–]DaddyCatALSO 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

IMDB lists future ep.s? Wow.

[–]cteavincannon fodder 7ポイント8ポイント  (8子コメント)

To be fair, Hades fell for Zelina after one bike ride. I can see the writers legitimizing what TLK is by showing how it can happen either all at once or over a long time.

I'm a gay person, I was really happy they didn't just show the kiss, they let the characters go full on with it. If people are angry because it's tokenized, well, you just can't please everyone, can you.

[–]Thief-NoctisMay you always run free beneath the moon's pale light 9ポイント10ポイント  (0子コメント)

Oh I wasn't on board with that either. I'm still not 100% convinced he's not doing all this for his own gain somehow, and Zelena is gradually falling for the trick.

I was definitely happy with the fact an LGBT relationship was even included at all, some representation is better than none and Red had some adorable scenes - but Dorothy and the timeframe are a problem. You could've stuck Red with a wooden plank labelled 'female' for a love interest and it would've had more development than Dorothy did. We've had no time to care about her, no time to get to know her, nothing. She was in a coma for most of the episode. Dorothy is just an offensive last minute inclusion for the sake of a pun and to shut people up.

[–]TechnicolorOhmA man unwilling to fight for what he wants deserves what he gets 4ポイント5ポイント  (6子コメント)

Yeah exactly Hades fell hard way fast. Also, in season one there were all kinds of one-episode love affairs. I'm not sure what people are so upset about, there have been many rushed love stories... Cinderella and Prince Thomas, Ariel and whats-his-name, Grumpy and Nova, even Emma and Neal had as much action in the first episode it was introduced as Ruby and Dorothy. I'm bi and I was happy there was finally a lesbian kiss- I've been waiting for it since Mulan and Aurora. I'm sad that Mulan is still forever alone but maybe they are just leaving that open for her and Aurora to finally be together happily ever after. I'm also polyamorous so I think it would be totally amazing if Mulan/Aurora/Phillip had a triad going <3

[–]cteavincannon fodder 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

:)

I'm hoping that Aurora comes back, too. They seem to be presenting all kinds of families, they don't have a divorced family, yet. Here's hoping happily ever after isn't what Aurora thought it would be with Philip.

[–]hadtoomuchtodream 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

*Ariel sorry

and what's-his-name is Eric.

[–]TechnicolorOhmA man unwilling to fight for what he wants deserves what he gets 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Lmao oopsies!

[–]just_another_classic 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

I think the difference between Cinderella/Prince Thomas and Ariel/Eric is two-pronged. For one, they're well-known pairings. Audiences have built-in back stories since The Little Mermaid and Cinderella are all well-known. It's not much of a stretch to make these couples believable because people already "know" them. Dorothy and Red were a totally new couple without any built-in backstory, sorry the writers needed to work to make it more believable. It was very sweet, but that brings us to the next issue: it's True Love. The show was built on True Love being super rare and special. It's partially what makes Emma the Savior. So based on the lore of the current universe, I have a difficult time believing that they are true love after knowing one another for a day. I think they could be, but there's not a lot to make it feel extra special yet.

[–]Cervantas 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

By this logic Snow and Charming could have kissed the second they met and it would have been true love. True Love to me, at least is seasons past, was something everyone could attain if you worked for it. Now it's apparently something you can get with one bike ride or 15 minutes of talking to someone.

[–]TechnicolorOhmA man unwilling to fight for what he wants deserves what he gets 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I totally agree with that. They gave us zero reason to be interested in Dorothy at all, let alone rally for her to fall in love with one of the classic characters (introduced all the way back in season one). So for that reason it felt rushed compared to classic stories that we are already aware of. But it still stands that in those stories the two people fall in love at first sight. So in theory the idea of love at first sight isn't a new one. That said, I would still like to see more development between Red and Dorothy, I hope they don't just go with the "they lives happily ever after". I feel like they owe it to the community to flesh out the only LGBT relationship and not just leave it as a one episode thing. But there is still time in this season and the upcoming 6th for that to happen so I don't want to get too antsy and write them off just yet. I guess I just don't get how worked up everyone is about it. I liked it and thought it was nice they finally had some representation even if it could have been written better. But that's nothing new in this show, there is plenty to gripe about and we do because we are all addicts and there is nothing better to do ;)

[–]Batsignal_on_mars 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

You wrote pretty much everything I feel! I loved that they did this episode, but they did it in the laziest and most trifling way possible. They could have easily had the entire exact same plot line but with Mulan getting cursed by Zelena and Red having to save her, the characters already have established history and chemistry, there could have been more time spent in making the episode a bit more plot relevant with Zelena/Hades by not wasting time trying to make us like this new, but never to be seen again, character. Over all it had so much potential and I was SO excited for it but it ended up being like the most cliche token episode they could make.

[–]vizakenjack 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Kinda agree, them getting "to know each other" was awkward, and the whole scene with Ruby kissing her and their conversation was really cringey.

The actress who plays Ruby is alright, her cries were believable, it's just she had such as cheesy dialogue written for her, duh. Writers should realize that it's not just a TV series for kids only.

[–]African_Lorelord 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

I think we're all forgetting that the writers are sadists who love waterboarding their fans with syrupy sappy nonsense. How could they pass up an opportunity to make a friends of Dorothy joke?

That said, this episode was disappointing, but necessary filler for whatever insane finale cliffhanger they have brewing. Ol' beelzebubs and broomsticks (that's the name of the SS Zelena-Hades I've been captaining) is coming along swimmingly, but I get this funny feeling Zelena's up to something that will end up making Hades feel betrayed.

Also, I'm glad they broke up Snarming; alone they're intolerable but together they're insufferable.

[–]rumplebike 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I was mad! What a way to screw over Mulan. Ugh.

[–]souldonkey 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Not only was I disappointed for Mulan who's got the short end of the stick again

How exactly? As far as I'm aware Mulan has no romantic feelings towards Red so I don't know why everyone is going on about how she got the shaft yet again. Just because she's ALSO gay doesn't mean she's attracted to every woman in the show.

we just had an entire relationship arc shoved in our faces over the course of one episode

I'm sorry but isn't one of the main things about "true love" supposed to be that it's eternal and immediate, even if the parties involved don't fully understand it right away? It's basically soulmates, so time spent on their development is fairly irrelevant imo. Which leads me to your next gripe...

Where's the same development that they afford to Captain Swan? Rumbelle? Snowing? Hell, even Outlaw Queen has more development than that

As you later state, Red is a secondary character. This show would take forever to play out a plot line if they took the amount of time to develop a love story that they took with your examples. You've already listed 4 examples of very fleshed out love stories, can you imagine if we had 4 more than that in the show? The show would literally just be "Love Stories and Their Origins". There wouldn't be time for any other plot.

why does that have to mean the relationship is portrayed in the most unrealistic way possible?

Again, see my "true love is basically soulmates" example. In real life is it unrealistic for someone to fall in love that quickly? Maybe, I'm sure there's some that would argue that, but that's beside the point. We're dealing with fairy tales here, where true love is...well, true love! It's the most powerful thing in the universe, why can't it be something that presents itself in that short of a time? Just because you think that's unrealistic?

Also, what happened to Hades' threat of 'I'm going to take care of that wolf'? I was agonising over that all week, and it turns out all he wanted to do was liquefy an old woman.

Near as I can tell Hades can't really do much about living people in the underworld, if he could he would have disposed of our heroes in a day and this season wouldn't exist. Maybe his way of "taking care of that wolf" was to thwart her plans in the only way he really could (at least as far as he knew) by getting rid of Auntie Em.

[–]Thief-NoctisMay you always run free beneath the moon's pale light 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

How exactly? As far as I'm aware Mulan has no romantic feelings towards Red so I don't know why everyone is going on about how she got the shaft yet again. Just because she's ALSO gay doesn't mean she's attracted to every woman in the show.

Because the writers made a point of bringing her back, and it was seemingly for no reason. Most people wanted her to get some form of closure, a happy ending. It didn't have to be with Red (even though I and many others would have liked to see that happen). At this point it feels like the writers brought her back to be a red herring for the LGBT relationship. We aren't going to see any of the trio for the rest of season 5, and I'll be amazed if they're brought back at all in season 6 since this played out as a very final ending for anyone who's still in Oz. Snow went back to Storybrooke (where most of the show takes place) with the slippers (eliminating one important means of realm-transport) and brought no one with her.

I'm sorry but isn't one of the main things about "true love" supposed to be that it's eternal and immediate, even if the parties involved don't fully understand it right away? It's basically soulmates, so time spent on their development is fairly irrelevant imo. Which leads me to your next gripe...

Time spent on development is never irrelevant. It's what makes things like this believable and relatable. The whole 'true love' idea isn't that the moment you set eyes on a person, you fall madly in love and would die for them half an hour later etc etc. It starts as a spark and inevitably grows from there as they get to know the person and 'understand it', as you say. The couple of hours time frame between when they met and had a TLK wasn't long enough for it to feel like anything but fastforwarded instant gratification IMO. I had a similar issue with Dreamy/Nova from what I can remember, although I think I tried to block that episode from my memory.

As you later state, Red is a secondary character. This show would take forever to play out a plot line if they took the amount of time to develop a love story that they took with your examples. You've already listed 4 examples of very fleshed out love stories, can you imagine if we had 4 more than that in the show? The show would literally just be "Love Stories and Their Origins". There wouldn't be time for any other plot.

Yeah, I definitely understand that. I wasn't expecting an entire arc considering the multitude of main characters already clambering for a few minutes in the spotlight. It wouldn't have killed the writers to spread it across a small handful of episodes though, so we could actually see the gradual build up of the inevitable relationship instead of being hit across the face with it after a few lines of dialogue. Hell, even Mulan got two episodes with Red across season 5 despite neither episode adding extensively to the plot. Why couldn't Dorothy/Red also get two or three across a season or two? For a show that's never had an LGBT couple, the first one to exist canonically deserves at least a little more screen time than what it was given. If it was just another cliché Ariel/Eric Disney romance I wouldn't be fussed, since those have been done to death and already have extensive backstories. This is new, and deserves development of the same standard. The audience need a reason, and time, to actually care about the pair.

Again, see my "true love is basically soulmates" example. In real life is it unrealistic for someone to fall in love that quickly? Maybe, I'm sure there's some that would argue that, but that's beside the point. We're dealing with fairy tales here, where true love is...well, true love! It's the most powerful thing in the universe, why can't it be something that presents itself in that short of a time? Just because you think that's unrealistic?

Likewise, see my response to your earlier response. I'm far from the only person who had to suspend their disbelief at the ten minute love story. They barely knew each other. If they had some form of backstory together, I would totally have bought into it. If they were in each-others presence for even just a couple of days but went through some genuine trials and experiences together, I would've been content. But they literally met half an hour before deciding they were so in love they couldn't bear to lose the other, even though they'd exchanged all of, what, 10-15 sentences? Nothing happened between them except Dorothy saying she was almost admitted and Red saying she killed her boyfriend. Then they started making googly eyes at each other as if the entire world had shifted in that one dull moment where nothing actually happened.

Near as I can tell Hades can't really do much about living people in the underworld, if he could he would have disposed of our heroes in a day and this season wouldn't exist. Maybe his way of "taking care of that wolf" was to thwart her plans in the only way he really could (at least as far as he knew) by getting rid of Auntie Em.

I guess I could kinda see that, yeah. What do you think of Zelena's dialogue, though? 'That's not possible. Not after what I did to her' made no sense. She acted as if she'd done something terrible to Red that would have prevented her following Zelena, but... she didn't. She wouldn't have even been aware that she'd indirectly hurt Red by cursing Dorothy, otherwise she wouldn't have been so gleeful about Dorothy never being able to wake up.

Anyway, don't get me wrong. There were absolutely many scenes and concepts I loved with the Red x Dorothy story. I wrote a new comment a few hours ago with a somewhat revised opinion on the pairing after I rewatched the episode earlier. I just happen to have complaints about it, too.

[–]TDIfan241 22ポイント23ポイント  (7子コメント)

Let's make one thing clear. Rumple is going to TLK Belle awake and because plot will still be the dark one. Let's just make that clear.

[–]Batsignal_on_mars 10ポイント11ポイント  (1子コメント)

He'll get enough light to not be super dark and instead just be shady

[–]AgentPeggyCarter 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

Rumple is Blue confirmed?!

[–]African_Lorelord 10ポイント11ポイント  (0子コメント)

More like, because canon. Remember when she thought she was Lacey? The false memories only served to let loose her inner bad girl. Every guy she's ever been with has been at least an antihero. And let's not forget that her dad pressured her into a marriage with a lying bastard (whom she just killed), along with belittling and patronizing her as a lordly father would to his delicate lil girl. No way will be get the TLK.

[–]thrntnja 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

I don't think it has to be because of plot. I think the arc of this half season for them is about them understanding each other and their weaknesses. AKA Belle adjusting her expectations and loving Rumple for the good and the bad, and Rumple not being a lying dick anymore. I could get behind that development for them to have a TLK

[–]FaxImUhLee 10ポイント11ポイント  (1子コメント)

God damn it, guys. You've been teasing Mulan romance for several seasons now. Shit or get off the pot. And at this point, you've pretty much duct taped yourself to the toilet, so get on with it

Throwing two random girls together at the last second after pushing Mulan so far isn't some great twist. Have some balls and give them more than some token ten seconds of representation.

[–]droid327 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

I still want to see Mulan find a HEA that doesnt involve any TLK. Like her happy ending is being a noble warrior and protecting the people, but her destiny isn't defined by a romantic relationship. Maybe have the role of Galahad, the celibate knight.

[–]just_another_classic 13ポイント14ポイント  (9子コメント)

So...this relationship felt very forced, and the TLK totally unearned. Red Kansas/Ruby Slippers have known each other for maybe a week (at most) and are totally True Love? Was Mulan only there to encourage Red? I did enjoy seeing Ruby struggle to understand her feelings, and I loved with friendship moments between Snow and her, but this whole thing felt like lame filler. Also, can we please get Mulan a girlfriend?

However, holy cow, Belle was hardcore. Also, did this confirm that Belle no longer sees her relationship with Rumple as True Love? I am going to go ahead and assume that Rumple will still be the one to wake her, but dang, that was stone cold. (And also, it was likely pretty dumb.)

I adored the return (and confirmation) of Captain Charming BroTP. And Snowing be all adorable.

[–]cteavincannon fodder 3ポイント4ポイント  (5子コメント)

If Kansaw/Wolfie's TLK was unearned, what about the upcoming Hades/Zelina? Granted, they have time to develop the relationship but it's been established that they found TL after one bicycle ride. It's not much different for Dorothy/Red.

[–]just_another_classic 8ポイント9ポイント  (0子コメント)

I mean, I think the Hades/Zelena relationship is wildly creepy and don't buy that as TL either. I don't know if we will actually see them have a TLK yet.

[–]thrntnja 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

We don't actually know that they have True Love. We just know that Hades felt his heart flutter and he thinks he loves Zelena. I'm still not sold that he's not trying to use Zelena for his own ends

Like where he's talking about that he sent Aunt Em to the River of Lost Souls all for Zelena to make her happy? I don't buy that. He did it to set an example for the heroes and for the souls still in the Underworld. He doesn't want anyone helping them. It's just a bonus that it helps Zelena with someone she doesn't like

[–]DaddyCatALSO 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Except Zelena is at point where this might not have actually helped. We'll see.

[–]thrntnja 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

We don't actually know that they have True Love. We just know that Hades felt his heart flutter and he thinks he loves Zelena. I'm still not sold that he's not trying to use Zelena for his own ends

Like where he's talking about that he sent Aunt Em to the River of Lost Souls all for Zelena to make her happy? I don't buy that. He did it to set an example for the heroes and for the souls still in the Underworld. He doesn't want anyone helping them. It's just a bonus that it helps Zelena with someone she doesn't like

[–]cteavincannon fodder 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I do think he has ulterior motives, but I also think he loves her, perhaps like Bell/Rumple, well, I guess it'd be Rumple/Dark One, wouldn't it.

[–]thrntnja 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Honestly, what I took from Belle is that she just doesn't trust Rumple. She blames him for what she did and just assumes he's always going to do something bad. I'm fairly sure he'll wake her though after either doing something heroic or having a revelation.

[–]DaddyCatALSO 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Or is it just that the amount of darkness in him makes it less than possible for his "wuv" to actually qualify as "twue." Sucha twist is within their capacity, methinks.

[–]souldonkey 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

So...this relationship felt very forced, and the TLK totally unearned. Red Kansas/Ruby Slippers have known each other for maybe a week (at most) and are totally True Love?

So Ariel and Eric is too then? And Cinderella and what's his nuts? Those were both like a day...

[–]maugrimmLove is sacrifice. 22ポイント23ポイント  (7子コメント)

You know what's really extra bullshit about our token LGBT characters and further proof that this wasn't about the story they wanted to tell but an executive buisness decision?

Neither character is a Disney Princess. That is why THIS pairing happened.

If Aurora, Mulan and Merida were involved.... well they are all official Disney Princesses and merchandising bonanzas. Dorothy isn't Disney and The Big Bad Wolf is male in all other Disney Canon. Remember there is no on screen proof that Mulan likes women. Trust me I still have people tell me all the time that she wanted to confess her love to Phillip and not Aurora. You know and I know that's bullshit but if it's not onscreen it doesn't count. Period. End of story. Stick a fork in it. A+E left it open.

This is not nearly the big deal that some people are making it out to be, so kindly do not tell a marginalized group to settle for something for fear that they will get nothing in the future. That reasoning is just asinine.

[–]TechnicolorOhmA man unwilling to fight for what he wants deserves what he gets 1ポイント2ポイント  (5子コメント)

I can't tell if you're upset that the LGBT relationship was Dorothy and Mulan or not? I hadn't thought about the fact that neither of them are Disney Princesses so it makes that an easier decision to be passed through the higher ups. But so what? At least A+E were able to finally get some representation in. Maybe they are using Red and Dorothy to pave the way for Mulan and Aurora to finally be together. Breaking the ice so to speak?

[–]maugrimmLove is sacrifice. 10ポイント11ポイント  (4子コメント)

I'm upset on several levels. First Eddy and Adam lied. They said the relationship would pass the Russo test. That is the queer character would be vital for the story. They aren't. They said they laid cornerstones for this relationship in 5a. They didn't. If they can't even do that why should I hold up hope for it to get better? OUAT is also tripping into the issue as an internet inferno has raged about poor tropes LGBT women have suffered in the media(if you want to know more I can provide reading material). I can tell you the main reaction is "Well at least no one died!" That's literally what people are celebrating, doesn't that strike you as...wrong?

The story itself was rushed and poorly told. Yes a few of the other relationships were bad but you have Snowing which was a huge focus through several season(I love snowing, it's not just about the gays for me!), CS which had been burning since season 2, OQ which has numerous episodes startings since Season 3.... sure there is plenty of crap but you got other stuff too. If you are going to have your token characters you are honor bound to do it well. Hell at least do it decently, this was just crap.

I hope you're right about what this could lead to.

But do you have any idea how many times I've heard such things in the past twenty years? Any minute now GOOD representation is just around the corner! Just wait, don't get too uppity or we will just take the ball and go home! We should get kudos for having token queers/women/POC/etc. on the show!

Truth of the matter is nothing was ever achieved by wishing, you scream and demand , stop spending your money and wallop execuatives upside the head with the biggest stick you can find and and eventually they give in. They'll say it's because of the people that were holding the carrot. History always gives them the greatest credit and they do play their part but you can't have one without the other.

I hope your right, one day you will be. But experience tells me it won't be soon.

[–]TechnicolorOhmA man unwilling to fight for what he wants deserves what he gets 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

Oh, okay I guess I haven't looked in to it that much but I think those are totally legitimate reasons to be upset. I'm a bi female in my mid twenties and I was just happy to have a steamy kiss for once. It's been a few episodes since we've had any new action on screen. True, we have no reason to like Dorothy let alone rally for her to be in a romantic relationship with any of the long term cast who go way back in season one. Let alone is such a controversial way. So yes her and Red seemed rushed. But I did think they had good chemistry and it was totally believable (though it was was mostly Ruby, man that girl is a dream) and like you said there have been lots of other rushed love stories throughout the season (Cinderella and Prince Thomas, Aerial and Prince Eric, Grumpy and Astrid) so all I'm saying is that it wasn't out of the ordinary to introduce a love affair in one episode. Does that mean that I would want the story to be fleshed out more, to fill more episodes and have had more of a lead in...? Of course! I would love to have more screen time dedicated to Red and Dorothy now that they have established them. I guess I was just happy for the one episode. I seriously got all teary eyed and choked up. And there is still plenty of time, we never know what they have planned from here on out, maybe we'll get more backstory? Maybe we'll get more future stories. Maybe Mulan will end up with Aurora. We just don't know yet so I think it's a little premature for everyone to be getting so riled up. But thanks for responding and explaining why it was upsetting to you, I can totally understand where you are coming from.

[–]maugrimmLove is sacrifice. 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

Thanks for asking! No really usually people ask but don't really want an answer, I'm glad I toned down my response from the first draft. I know that's toned down?! :D

The funny thing is...looks/attitude wise Dorothy is totally the kind of girl I go more for. Under the right circumstances I would love to see more of this character. I kinda disagree on the chemistry but that's down to interpretation and personal taste for sure. I'd say there was some, it wasn't like Phillip/Aurora where I never bought it before shipping Sleeping Warrior.

Right now a lot of queer fans are ready to burn people at the stakes for the first new offense and while I kinda feel sorry for them.... if they hadn't dun goofed for years in the first place it wouldn't be an issue!

Im such trash for Sleeping Warrior that I will jump right back into the fold for the pairing. Honestly we want so little , just upgrade us from crumbs to appetizers and there won't be these issues! Well for a while ;)

[–]TechnicolorOhmA man unwilling to fight for what he wants deserves what he gets 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Haha np, I was legit curious. And yeah I agree, A+E had a lot to work with and could have written a beautiful love story between Dorothy and Red that spanned a few more episodes. Give us more time to write some fanfic and daydream about them hooking up. And honestly they should have known better than to cram it in to one ep. So I see where the hate is coming from. I guess the thing about the other single-serving love affair episodes I mentioned in my earlier post is for the most part we already knew these relationships to be TLK because they are classic fairytales. So upon meeting the character we already know they will fall in love with <blank> whereas Red and Dorothy is totally unique to ouat and needs to convince us of it. But yeah thanks for explaining and see ya in the Sleeping Warrior fold!

[–]bitrollar 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

The slippers were key to the plot, and likely about to be even keyer

[–]cteavincannon fodder -3ポイント-2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Settle? I'm a gay man and I'm thrilled to see a Disney owned production go this route. If people want to complain, ask why not two men and then spit out something meta? It's pointless grumbling.

This episode is in keeping with the past several years of storytelling. It's a short arc. End of story.

[–]Thief-NoctisMay you always run free beneath the moon's pale light 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

Okay. Now I've had my vent for the year I'll focus on what I actually liked about the episode.

  • Red. Okay I'm incredibly biased here but I was resisting the urge to squeal like a demented mouse throughout the entire episode. Love her. If nothing else, I'll thank the writers for making my favourite-since-the-beginning character bi. It was so nice to have her back either way, and I can only hope (albeit feebly) that she's coming back and they haven't written her/Mulan/Dorothy(sigh) off. Her scenes were the most adorable things and I need time to recover. But... I'm 99% sure she's been written off now. The show isn't going to last more than another couple seasons at best, and the way Henry is writing up all the stories kind of makes me feel like he just wrote 'The End' on Red's.

  • RED AND SNOW. THAT FRIENDSHIP. THAT CONVERSATION. GOODBYE MY HEART, MAY YOU NEVER BEAT AGAIN. Red/Snow, even platonically, is sweeter than 'Ruby Slippers' will ever be. Damn I love their shared scenes.

  • Mulaaaaaaan...? I loved having her back but uh... I'm trying to see why they brought her back to the show at all. Poor girl has been terribly under-utilised for the sake of- wait, this is meant to be positive. My bad.

  • I imagine Captain Charming shippers were screaming at their TV this episode. Can't say I blame them. Was definitely great to see Hook/David interact with each other instead of just Emma/Snow as of late.

  • Rumbelle. My heart both shattered and simultaneously glued itself back together somehow. No matter what crap Belle and Rumple go through, they're pretty much guaranteed to fix things in the end. So I'll just wait for that. ... And wait for it. ... Aaaaaand- yeah, okay. Belle, you love Dark Rumple and you're gonna deal with it when he wakes you up.

  • Was really nice to see Belle go to someone else for help, aka Zelena. I sincerely hope the latter redeems herself soon.

[–]charredgrass 10ポイント11ポイント  (2子コメント)

Anyone else despise the nicknames "Kansas" and "Wolfie"? The relationship was rushed and everything (even in the time frame of the story!) but the nicknames are just insanely forced in my opinion.

[–]Thief-NoctisMay you always run free beneath the moon's pale light 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

I could deal with Wolfy. I'm surprised no one has called Red that before, although probably in a less affectionate manner. Kansas, though...

[–]DaddyCatALSO 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yes, what's wrong with Dot?

[–]SoYoureALiar 9ポイント10ポイント  (0子コメント)

Wow! This episode really drove all of the homophobes out from under their nasty rocks tonight! I've seen some pretty terrible, cruel, and vicious statements about tonight's episode--and all of them are for the inclusion of an LGBT storyline. It just makes me sad.

[–]PonderAsunder 4ポイント5ポイント  (2子コメント)

At this rate all the Disney princesses would have undergone the sleeping curse. Watch them take the old ones back and put them to sleep.

They all get a sleeping curse.

[–]OmegathekidRumple! How dare you murder Chip! 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

So, does this mean we're saying David and Henry are Disney princesses?

[–]xfkirsten 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I pictured this exact meme as I watched...

[–]Ragnarok79 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

I just met you and this is crazy, but you're a werewolf so lez out maybe?

[–]ryotiu 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

Now that Belle is on the sleeping curse, I really hope that Rumple will find a way to use his Dark One Magic as Light Magic like how Merlin did.

[–]Yukito_097 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

Is the Sleeping Curse REALLY that easy to make? I'm starting to think that the heroes should start making bullets dipped in Sleeping Curse. One shot and BAM, enemy down.

[–]KimH2 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

If you're already shooting them do you really need the sleeping curse?

Honestly though I don't think the curse is that easy to make, the trick seems to be that the object imbued with the curse stays imbued it's not a 1 shot deal.

The needle Belle used was the same one Zelena used on Dorothy (they made a point of showing it up close in both cases, and it was Zelena's way of 'helping')

[–]Thief-NoctisMay you always run free beneath the moon's pale light 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Alright, after my initial huge disappointment last night I just finished rewatching the episode. Usually I don't bother with more than one comment on these post-ep things, but have a third and final one regarding Red/Dorothy.

Yes, it's a huge letdown that Red is with someone as undeveloped as Dorothy (and even further, that Mulan isn't with anyone at all). Not gonna go into my thoughts on that since I already covered it in the rant.

Although y'know what? I think I can at least appreciate it. I didn't really see any chemistry there, but it was still cute. Rushed, undoubtedly - the timeframe was executed horribly and I wanted to scream bloody murder at it - but all of Red's scenes were a joy to watch and her internal struggle with the idea of loving Dorothy and/or scaring her off was sweet.

That emotional conversation between Red and Snow is something I imagine a lot of people needed to hear. Hell, the concept of this entire episode was needed, although I do wish it wasn't the sole focus since that made it seem like the whole reason the ep even existed. Which is a bad reason.

The ending kiss(es) did surprise me. If nothing else, at least the writers had the guts to show that. The conversation between Red and Dorothy did make me cringe a little still - 'I couldn't lose you to Zelena' (three hours after we met?) - but eh, there's worse things to complain about.

Is it the representation everyone wanted? No, but as much as I hate to say it, I suppose it was at least representation at its core. It could have - should have - been handled far better. I doubt it'll ever be 'fixed' or brought up again. The only way I can see myself happy with it is if they bring Red & Dorothy back to Storybrooke (preferably with Mulan tagging along) so they have future appearances and flashes of development. But I can appreciate the ep for what it was, once I get over the expectations I had prior. I just hope this isn't the last we see of them (although I'm not holding my breath after seeing the shitstorm of bitter parents on Facebook). Good on the writers for defying the homophobes at the risk of all the backlash.

[–]invaderpixel 5ポイント6ポイント  (7子コメント)

I know people are mad for Mulan, but I think they're going to treat Mulan x Ruby like any other relationship on the show by dragging it out and adding a third person to make Mulan jealous and realize her feelings. And let's be honest, it would be pretty boring to say "oh we're the only two bi/lesbian characters ever to be on this show, let's just be together." Mulan needs her happy ending more than anyone and writers know that.

The question is how this'll affect true love's kiss canon. We know that TLK can be applied to platonic love, family love, heck Belle even suggested having her dad be TLK for her most recent sleeping curse which makes it seem a lot more calculated than it's been before. But can you have a TLK for more than one romantic partner? Can Ruby move on and be with Mulan even though she shared a TLK with Dorothy? Or am I just in serious denial haha

[–]Batsignal_on_mars 19ポイント20ポイント  (2子コメント)

A lesbian love triangle? Any of those characters appearing again? Honey, I adore your optimism.

[–]maugrimmLove is sacrifice. 6ポイント7ポイント  (1子コメント)

Sweet summer child...

It's not like we want you to be wrong invaderpixel ! In fact you being right and me wrong on this issue would be one of the happiest days in my life. It would likely be the last day as well because I'd probably die from the shock.

[–]Batsignal_on_mars 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'm starting to think we need a support group

[–]sanguine_aubergineHe smells like forest 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

I feel like the love triangle thing is still a possibility because they definitely already had some cute scenes between Red and Mulan that were obviously leaning towards them having feelings for each other. But the TLK gave me pause...

[–]TechnicolorOhmA man unwilling to fight for what he wants deserves what he gets 4ポイント5ポイント  (2子コメント)

Since it was introduce I've totally been for Mulan and Aurora, and I'm wondering you're right they are using another lesbian couple to motivate Mulan to accept her feelings and act on it. Does Red even know Mulan is gay? I remember that Mulan told Red she lost someone she loved but I don't think she ever said who it was, unless it happened while they were out looking for Red's tribe and we'll never know?? Anyways I'm hoping that in the end Mulan and Aurora live happily ever after. Be pretty awesome and progressive if they were poly and Aurora was also still dating prince phillip though I guess that's just projection and optimism on my part ;)

[–]thrntnja 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

I don't think Mulan ever mentioned who she lost or the gender of who she lost.

[–]TechnicolorOhmA man unwilling to fight for what he wants deserves what he gets 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

I think you're right. As far as the audience is concerned it was only hinted through context that Mulan was in love with Aurora but it was never actually verbally stated.

[–]sanguine_aubergineHe smells like forest 4ポイント5ポイント  (2子コメント)

The writers took necessary steps for this episode to fly under the radar, for the most part, having no promotion of tonight's couple inclusion was a smart decision otherwise they'd have a lot of explaining to do tomorrow. Meanwhile, I looked around to see what the feedback was and most show viewers who don't tend to discuss the show seemed pleased as punch that there is any LGBTQ couple in a Disney backed show at all. If that is the only victory in this, then that is one that I'll accept. EDIT: I was wrong the amount of hate on the official OUAT facebook page is atrocious. Faith in humanity lost. As a fan of the show—and I don't complain about much often, they could have done better. It was an absolutely rushed, Disney-fied queer fairy tale story with all the wrong motives. They fell in love in 5 minutes, the thing Red was searching for to make her happy was a partner, and that TLK can solve everything. I think each of the characters deserved more substance than what they were given. The episode theme seemed to be how scary love is and so I liked that they made it all inclusive, and had the romance veterans Snow and Charming being accepting/encouraging of both Hook and Red in this episode and Zelena willing to take a risk with love. So there's that. I just hope this is the beginning, that Mulan gets some more development out of this relationship introduction. I'm glad she encouraged Red, I am. It showed that Mulan learned from her past as well. Perhaps the writers thought that by not going the predictable route of putting Mulan with Red that would somehow satiate the viewers even more introducing yet another LGBTQ character into the show? Still trying to wrap my head around this one. I think I need to sleep on it and I won't be as angry tomorrow.

[–]thrntnja 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

They fell in love in 5 minutes, the thing Red was searching for to make her happy was a partner

I think it was more that Ruby wanted someone who understood her and wasn't afraid of her and accepted her. She thought Dorothy wasn't interested because she assumed she was disgusted by her transformation. At least, that's what I took from it. It was all very rushed, I agree, but I think that's the message that was intended.

[–]sanguine_aubergineHe smells like forest 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I suppose since RUby is a secondary character, it makes sense in that way. The main cast obviously get a bit more screen time and storyline spanning episodes to work through their issues.

[–]cocobeannI've retained my youthful glow. 3ポイント4ポイント  (6子コメント)

Really disappointed with how rushed the Ruby/Dorothy relationship was. It was exactly what I didn't want it to be! And I assume it'll be like, a billion years before we see them again. Also, I don't know that I totally like Dorothy. This show does character development incredibly well, but she was so...bland. Am I alone here?
Captain Charming ftw!

[–]Thief-NoctisMay you always run free beneath the moon's pale light 7ポイント8ポイント  (5子コメント)

Not alone. Dorothy had no development whatsoever. Her sexuality was literally the only thing that defined her.

[–]CarisExtraordinaire 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

I know I have a .1% or less popular opinion here, but I saw plenty of development from Dorothy. As well as explaining to Red how she felt as the once-adored loner, she also had oodles of body language to back it up. Sometimes what is left unsaid speak loudest of all. Oh yeah, AND a relatively complete history in novel, plays, and her backstory episode back in S3? They're banking on viewers relating to Dorothy on a cultural-icon level so they haven't overexplained her. Friends tell me I'm highly intuitive, so maybe I am filling in the blanks better than the average Oncer, but I think the workers have done their jobs with Dorothy Gale. In the OUaT universe before this episode, there was only one, maybe two missing pieces to her, really--does she have love interest and what's her next act of heroism? Asked and answered, IMHO.

[–]Thief-NoctisMay you always run free beneath the moon's pale light 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Thing is, OUAT fairy tales aren't the same as the original stories. They take much inspiration from them, granted, but the writers can't rely on people to have watched the source material when it's up to them to make the character their own. To say the equivalent of 'go research/watch/read the old stories' is allowing the writers to be lazy with their own interpretation of the character. I can barely remember a thing about the original Wizard of Oz story I knew as a kid, and many young teenagers and kids now probably haven't even read or seen it. I know my younger sisters haven't.

Yeah, she did have a handful of sentences about how her family had her committed etc., but that's just her discussing one moment in her past. That's not character development, just information. I can't fault the actress, I'm not saying she didn't play the part well, but she didn't have much to work with (or the time she needed to make Dorothy a rounded individual) IMO. Nice to know someone else sees her otherwise though, it was just frustrating for me since she felt so 2D compared to Red who had established history on the show, development, time for us to care about her etc. Aside from that one ep with kid Dorothy, she's had none of that.

[–]droid327 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

She didn't even really have that, either. She just kinda passively sat there while Ruby had internal conflict time. There was no indication until the very end that Dorothy had any feelings for Ruby, when she simply announces it. She does not pass the Sexy Lamp Test.

[–]DaddyCatALSO 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Actually, to me she was downright off-putting with her temper and speaking style.

[–]droid327 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Well yes, she was a total bitchface :) But that's even more to my point - there was no sexuality to Dorothy at all. Dorothy was super soldier-girl focused on the mission. If Dorothy was completely straight the whole thing would have gone exactly the same up until the point at which Dorothy kissed Ruby back, which was the last 1.5 seconds of Dorothy's screen time and possibly the last time we ever see her :)

[–]MilkyCub 6ポイント7ポイント  (6子コメント)

Hey guys, remember Camelot?

[–]DarthTauriHello, Dearie! 4ポイント5ポイント  (4子コメント)

They've already said it would be addressed, focusing on the main group was the right way to go.

If they were splitting time with topside "B" stories then the episodes would be too watered down to be enjoyable. Hell, the current story has issues on it own, but that's a whole other conversation.

[–]Crystal_Clods 3ポイント4ポイント  (3子コメント)

Maybe we could just finish one storyline before opening another, instead of having to choose between completely ignoring one and splitting our time between two.

[–]thrntnja 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

I feel like they might spin it where Camelot friends are wrecking havoc in Storybrooke once all of the heroes come back from the Underworld for the last few episodes

[–]thatoneguy_14 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

From what I've heard about behind the scenes, it's gonna be resolved by the end of the season.

[–]DarthTauriHello, Dearie! 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

As fast as the Dark Swan arc was moved to its next step it seems unlikely that they would have been able to close out Camelot in a satisfactory way before moving to the underworld.

They could have had the first episode back deal with the end of Camelots arc but then people would have been annoyed that we weren't continuing the main story after the cliffhanger(I would be one of those).

[–]derpynarwhal9 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

Alright, am I the only one shocked by the final Rumbelle moment? I mean, I know they've been 'not together' for a little bit now but they're always had their ups and downs. And until now, they've always definitely still had love between them, even if they weren't getting along. But...Belle admitting that Rumple wouldn't be able to wake her with TLK...that hurt. I never thought of them as 'over' but if TLK won't work (granted, he hasn't tried yet), then that means they're no longer true love, right? I agree their relationship is sketchy at best but I was not emotionally prepared for this!

[–]Malarkay79Bad form! 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

She didn't say that Rumple couldn't wake her, she was saying that he doesn't have to, in response to his questioning if her putting herself under a sleeping curse was a ploy to force him to break his curse.

I can only hope that this is leading up to him being the one to TLK her.

[–]thrntnja 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Okay... that wasn't exactly what I was expecting.

I agree with most here -- that Ruby/Dorothy was extremely rushed. I don't necessarily mind the relationship and I thought they did have some chemistry, but it was like, one conversation, nicknames, and a piggyback ride. Given, I know love can develop very quickly in this show, but come on.

Poor Mulan. Man, can we find her someone to love? I am glad that she was supportive and not heartbroken (again). I was worried they'd go that route. I could see a love triangle happening in the future potentially, though. I wouldn't mind that as long as it's done well. Writers would somehow have to take the story back to Oz for that though.

The Snowing scenes were well done. I like the decision of Charming staying in Storybrooke to allow Snow to be with Neal. I think that really develops their characters. Snow doesn't want what happened with Emma to happen with Neal. Much better than them haunting the poor baby.

I'm totally down for the Charming Hook bromance. Really glad we're seeing some acceptance from Emma's dad in her choice of boyfriend. With how it's going, I will be disappointed if we don't see a TLK from Hook and Emma this season.

Rumbelle... damn. I will say I loved them in the early seasons, and I hated their arc seasons 4-5. However, I love that Rumple has decided to be honest and has basically told Belle to try to love him as he is. Belle I think is being completely crazy this episode, and I hate that she blamed Rumple for what she did. She did it. He didn't force her. She did what she had to to save the man she loved. She just can't accept that yet, to the point where she doesn't think Rumple can accomplish TLK. I think Rumple will learn how to use Dark magic for light purposes, and I think that's how he'll wake Belle up.

I really hope there's a way they can save people from the River of Lost Souls. Seems more and more people get thrown in there, and it sounds like an awful way to exist. I do hope all of this happy kissing and reviving has sprouted some more flowers for good ol' Hades.

[–]droid327 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Also....if Hades spiked the soup with death-water, shouldn't a couple other patrons be soul-goo too? Unless no one else had ordered soup? And how did Hades even know she'd drink some before she blew them a kiss for Dorothy?

[–]Ragnarok79 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Did anybody else notice that Zelena's whiskey bottle had Moloch on it? Moloch is an ancient Mesopotamian God who people would sacrifice children to.

[–]fanananahHappy person, tippy stone. 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Putting aside all the Red/Dorothy rushed romance thing, can I just say how much I LOVED that scene between Hook and Charming?

That bromance gives me all the warm and fuzzies. I wish they had more scenes together.

[–]caylix 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

This episode watched like fan fiction. I'm giving up.

[–]zpatriarchy 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

it was awful, pandering garbage.

[–]woolybooly23a piercing-eyed, smoldering pirate who loves you 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

I can't be the only one that thinks that episode was really forced and kind of dumb, right?

[–]themidnightlabbalancing the light and the dark 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

I thought Belle was once in a sleeping curse before, back in season 4 when the whole town was cursed by Maleficent? I also thought you could only be put in a sleeping curse once, then you become immune. Am I remembering this incorrectly?

[–]whenuseeitBUY A FLASHLIGHT 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

I think being put to sleep by a mass curse like that is different than the sleeping curse. Especially since the whole town didn't need TLK to wake them. It just so happens that having previously been under a sleeping curse makes you immune to that.

[–]Naw207 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

No but it was a sleeping spell that Maleficent used not a curse.

[–]Lance_lake 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

I love Rumbell.

But I can not stand Belle at the end of the episode. WTF! She has to drive home the point of Rumple not being her true love?

[–]kleenebelly 1ポイント2ポイント  (3子コメント)

Honestly, I'm not surprised writers don't do LGBT relationships more often. No matter how they do it, it just makes a lot of people angry.

ETA: Got to love being downvoted for having an alternative perspective. Keep it classy Reddit.

[–]Thief-NoctisMay you always run free beneath the moon's pale light 7ポイント8ポイント  (2子コメント)

The problem (for most people in this sub, anyway) isn't with the fact it's an LGBT relationship though. The problem lies in how it's an unrealistic representation of any relationship, and one of the people involved might as well have been a slab of concrete for all of the personality and development she had.

[–]droid327 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

I'm now shipping Ruby with a slab of concrete!

Red Cement. Nevermind that it sounds like the opening to a CSI episode. Poured concrete slabs deserve their HEA too.

[–]Thief-NoctisMay you always run free beneath the moon's pale light 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Haha to be honest I don't actually have an issue with Dorothy, concrete slab or not - I wanted to like her, and I adored seeing how much Red loved her. I'm just so disappointed that the relationship didn't get the development, respect and screen-time it deserved. Sure, they didn't need a whole arc since they aren't in the main cast, but at least extend the timeframe a little + give Dorothy more individual development so we actually care about her + don't write them off after one episode, bring them back to Storybrooke for future appearances. The fact Dorothy was in a coma for most of the ep made the entire thing feel pointless.

[–]droid327 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'm pretty sure this whole episode was contrived just so an executive can chuckle they can call it "Ruby Slippers" even though MGM owns that particular version of the story.

[–]takemetoglasgow 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Mulan: "I've had some experience with this sort of thing being in the shittiest corner of a love triangle."

P.S. She better go back with Snow and hopefully get some more screen time.

[–]jealousponyKudos! That is next level darkness. 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

As this is probably the only "new" TLK this season (that A&E hinted at in an interview before 5b started), I'm very disappointed. I had hoped the TLK would be for Captain Swan, or at least another established couple.

This pairing seems so off and rushed. I had honestly hoped it would be Red and Mulan, not Red and Dorothy. Red is one of my favourite characters and I do not care for Dorothy at all. Maybe because of the actress, I don't know, but this is just so disappointing. Why introduce a LGBT romance just for the sake of it when you can build up that romance more naturally like with any of the other couples. Gahh.

And wtf will happen to Mulan? Is she ever going to get some happiness? I hope Aurora comes to her senses soon and leaves Philip for Mulan, lol.

And oh boy, the facebook comments are scary. I sometimes forget how things are in the "real world". Just makes me realize how open minded my friends and family are - and just the country I live in in general.

[–]Zall-Klos 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Anyone feel that getting Dorothy kissed by Toto would make more sense?

[–]foxyfoxyfoxyfoxyfoxRamenstiltskin: all noodles come with a price 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Sooo...this episode was interesting. I know that people don't like the Ruby/Dorothy pairing but at the same time, you could argue, that just because Mulan was "the gay character" first doesn't mean that any new gay pairings have to include her. In my head canon she either finds a true love with someone else (Merida!) or a polyamorous relationship with Aurora and Phillip (shut up, it could totally work!).

WTF Rumbelle though...I thought TL meant accepting each other...my prediction: RIP Belle's dad so that now Rumple has to become the true hero, blah blah blah...

What Emma should have said: "Ok, quick, write: Belle, Zelena, Rumple and let's get the hell outta here!" (I am an evil evil human being.)

Final thought: "Wolfie! Kansas!" Second cringiest line after "baby in your belly!"

[–]Feeenay -1ポイント0ポイント  (2子コメント)

Hopefully this episode will keep the Swan Queen shippers quiet forever

[–]Yukito_097 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

Ssshhhhh. Robin Hood is gone. This is Emma's chance.

[–]droid327 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

Shippers, especially slashers, are never satisfied. You cant ever make them happy.

[–]Magister_Xehanort -1ポイント0ポイント  (1子コメント)

It is sad that Rumple all the time tries to kill and treat everybody but people always blame belle. She knows that the kiss will not work because rumple would have to give up their powers forever what he will not do, he probably will try to kill everybody as it makes the whole season ( "Heroes and Villains", "Operation Mongoose" and "Devil's Due"). Belle her before was not asking to lose the curse, She just wanted it to be good, only after the fourth season in which he tried to kill everyone and then leaves them in misery, where at first he speaks again that will change, and in the second example he starts to cry and acts with the victim, not to mention that in the fifth season she saw as the curse is influencing hospdeiro to do evil, as it is powerful, and "Broken Heart" she says he thinks can not but trust him, of course then it goes back and back to stay together, just that he's back to lie and manipulate her, how could she trust him? I say in "Handsome Hero Her" if you change the Rumple speeches by some drug would not lose any sense.

[–]Malarkay79Bad form! 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Okay...

Well, for one, Rumple has never tried to kill everyone. The closest he's come to that was in 4A, when he was willing to leave everyone to Ingrid's shattered sight spell in exchange for his, Belle's, and Henry's safety. In that case, there was nothing he could do to stop it, because he couldn't harm Ingrid. I guess you could also count the end of season 2, when he had just learned of Bae's 'death' and decided to lay down and die instead of helping to stop the destruction of Storybrooke. But he has never actively tried to murder everyone.

Secondly, he has said that he would like to be the one to use the Dark One powers for good. But as you said, it is a powerful force that influences people to do evil. He knows that very well. He took on the power wanting to use it for good, originally. I think he simply doesn't believe that's possible, anymore. But I also think he wouldn't mind being proven wrong. He doesn't want the power for the evil. He wants the power to feel safe and useful. If he can find a way to be good and powerful, I'm sure he'd do it.

And finally, Belle is not some blameless victim of Rumple's who can do no wrong. We can criticize her when she does something questionable. Like...seeking help from the woman who tortured and enslaved her husband for a year and murdered her stepson. And then taking her advice to use dark magic, when this whole time she's been vehemently opposed to the idea of using dark magic. It takes two to tango. They both do things that put strain on their relationship. It's not all on Rumple.

[–]kroen 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

For second there I thought the writers would chicken out and have Ruby kiss Dorothy on the cheek. So glad I was wrong. I love this show even more now, and it was already my all time favorite tv show.

[–]energythief -1ポイント0ポイント  (1子コメント)

I think Henry probably whacked it after writing the Dorothy/red scene, before coming downstairs. Just a hunch...

[–]Yukito_097 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

"Henry, why are these pages all sticky?"

[–]cteavincannon fodder -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

Anyone else surprised the Rumple flat out told Belle he's not going to kiss her with TLK? It's like he just said that I don't love you. Either he's going to find a way to make black white, or she really needs to move on.

[–]duke_nukem_king -2ポイント-1ポイント  (0子コメント)

yawn these stories are incredibly boring. So now the "wicked" witch is going to the good side? So it's everyone vs. Hades? Fun. Can this show end already? It's painful to watch.